Longest long run -- 3 weeks before marathon, or 5?

Quoted message said:

There are many variations on this, but the basic theme would be to give
myself more than 3 weeks to recover from that longest run.

Recovery is different for everyone but conditioning/experience plays a
big role. Since you weren't recovered at 3 weeks last time, most
definitely move your last long run back at least a week. If you enjoy
doing marathons and plan to do them on a regular basis (whether yearly,
3X, or even monthly), the best way to banish the recovery demon is to
keep up the long runs (or at least semi long) year round. If you were to
do even a 15M run on a weekly basis, you'll find that ramping up to and
recovering from 20 mile + runs becomes a lot easier. Experience is a
great teacher and as you do more marathons, you'll hopefully learn what
works for you.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

The Trailrunner said:

Quoted message said:

There are many variations on this, but the basic theme would be to give
myself more than 3 weeks to recover from that longest run.

Recovery is different for everyone but conditioning/experience plays a
big role. Since you weren't recovered at 3 weeks last time, most

Since he didn't explicitly state this, it might not be true. He wouldn't be
the first person to experience quad soreness during the last 6 miles of a
marathon.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

For my first marathon last year, I did my longest long run at 3 weeks
out. My weekend runs for the last 7 weeks looked like:

22, 10, 23, 10, 24, 12, 10, raceday

I had a lot of muscle damage in my quads after the race, which I felt
during the race, and made the last 5-6 miles very hard. Lately, I have
heard about various runners tapering down their long runs prior to the
"official" pre-race taper -- in other words, do NOT do the longest long
run as the last one prior to the race. As I understand it, the
thinking is that ~3 weeks is not long enough to recover from one of
these very long runs.

I doubt that your quad soreness in the last 6 miles had much to do with
inadequate recovery. I mean, that could be a factor, but it's not unusual
to get sore quads in a marathon.

You should be able to tell if the long runs are a problem from a recovery
standpoint. If the long run is so difficult that it really takes 5 weeks to
recover from, by all means make it shorter. If the length of the run is a
problem, why not cut it back to 20 ?

How much milage are you doing ? If you're doing less than 80, then 24 seems
like an awful lot for a single run.

Quoted message said:

Or I could move the longest run to 5 weeks out, and have a shorter
final long run:

22, 10, 23, 10, 16-18, 12, 10, raceday

I did 18 with the last 6 at marathon race, 3 weeks out from the race. YMMV,
of course. I did get sore quads in the last 10k and slowed down. But so did
everyone else.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For my first marathon last year, I did my longest long run at 3 weeks
out. My weekend runs for the last 7 weeks looked like:

22, 10, 23, 10, 24, 12, 10, raceday

I had a lot of muscle damage in my quads after the race, which I felt
during the race, and made the last 5-6 miles very hard. Lately, I have
heard about various runners tapering down their long runs prior to the
"official" pre-race taper -- in other words, do NOT do the longest long
run as the last one prior to the race. As I understand it, the
thinking is that ~3 weeks is not long enough to recover from one of
these very long runs.

I have been wondering about trying something like this myself, in the
hopes of finishing the race stronger. This coming weekend's run is 7
weeks out, and I am planning to run about 22 miles (I have already run
14,18,20,21). So I could do the exact same schedule as last year:

22, 10, 23, 10, 24, 12, 10, raceday

Or I could move the longest run to 5 weeks out, and have a shorter
final long run:

22, 10, 23, 10, 16-18, 12, 10, raceday

There are many variations on this, but the basic theme would be to give
myself more than 3 weeks to recover from that longest run.

Has anyone tried this? The idea sounds like it has some merit.

Tom - I usually do a 4-week taper with my last "long" run 4 weeks out.
Owen Anderson on "Peak Performance" (www.pponline.co.uk) is a strong
advocate of the longer taper, indicating as you state that the body needs
those 4 weeks to fully recover from the damage caused by a long run.
The idea is to arrive at the race start with a fully recovered and fully
tuned body. Retain the quality miles, but cut down on the volume.

My "longest" run is 22 miles which I run about 7 weeks before according to
the program I'm using. 4 weeks out I'll probably run 20 miles and then
16,13 and 10 in the following weeks.

Good luck,

Anthony.

Anthony said:

Quoted message said:

There are many variations on this, but the basic theme would be to

give

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

myself more than 3 weeks to recover from that longest run.

Has anyone tried this? The idea sounds like it has some merit.

Tom - I usually do a 4-week taper with my last "long" run 4 weeks

out.

Quoted message said:

Owen Anderson on "Peak Performance" (www.pponline.co.uk) is a strong
advocate of the longer taper, indicating as you state that the body

needs

Quoted message said:

those 4 weeks to fully recover from the damage caused by a long run.
The idea is to arrive at the race start with a fully recovered and

fully

Quoted message said:

tuned body. Retain the quality miles, but cut down on the volume.

My "longest" run is 22 miles which I run about 7 weeks before

according to

Quoted message said:

the program I'm using. 4 weeks out I'll probably run 20 miles and

then

Quoted message said:

16,13 and 10 in the following weeks.

Thanks for the good advice, Anthony/Donovan/TR. To followup on
comments:

- I can't say for sure that I was not recovered for raceday last year
(although I do believe it was a factor). I am still a marathon newbie.
But the muscle pain from mile 20 and on was pretty intense. I was
psychologically prepared to suffer, and believe me, I did! I feel like
the extra year of toughening up will be a real help this year, and so
far it has been. But I don't want to overlook anything else that will
help me.

- I will consider Anthony's 4-week taper idea also. I'm pretty sure I
will try either that, or my 3 week taper with a shorter (16-18) final
long run.

- As for running 24, yes I wondered about that too. My modified
schedule would cut that down to 23 (at 5 weeks out). As I have posted
in the training week thread, I don't really follow the standard rules
of long run distance as a percentage of weekly mileage (only 2 runs per
week with lots of cross-training). However, I strongly believe that I
benefited from all those 20+ runs I did last year.

- "Everyone slows down". That's the title of an interesting chart in
the new edition of Noakes' "Lore of Running". I definitely slowed down
last year (1:23 first half, 1:26 second half). However, the course had
a net downhill in the first half, and net uphill second half (plus more
headwind and warmer temps). So I find myself wondering what Noakes
really means here. I think if I tinker a little with last year's
strategy, I can run nearly even splits.

- I did enjoy the marathon experience, and want to continue doing
perhaps one per year. I've also just hatched a crazy idea to possibly
try the "Mountain Masochist" 50 miler in October.

Thanks again,
Tom

"The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are many variations on this, but the basic theme would be to
give
myself more than 3 weeks to recover from that longest run.

Recovery is different for everyone but conditioning/experience plays a
big role. Since you weren't recovered at 3 weeks last time, most
definitely move your last long run back at least a week.

Here is an alternative which I suggested and used recently by a friend
and he ran 3:02 at age 58. I know anecdotal but it was his 15th
marathon. Do you longest run 5 weeks before race day and shorter long
run 3 weeks prior . In your case do 25 5 weeks out and 20 three weeks
before. The 20 should feel very comfortable will be less damaging and an
easier entry to your taper and race day.

"Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom - I usually do a 4-week taper with my last "long" run 4 weeks out.
Owen Anderson on "Peak Performance" (www.pponline.co.uk) is a strong
advocate of the longer taper, indicating as you state that the body
needs
those 4 weeks to fully recover from the damage caused by a long run.
The idea is to arrive at the race start with a fully recovered and
fully
tuned body. Retain the quality miles, but cut down on the volume.

Just to add some spice. I really like Owen for most of his advice and
training but I find his 4 weeks out too damn long. I'm not suggesting
you de-train but 4 weeks is too far and you get stale, almost
over-rested even with the rest of the items. I don't like it on paper
and the two people that I know that did try his neural training, and
they were experienced marathoners, had their worst races. I admit I
don't know if they both had a bad days, they pushed the overall program
too hard or the 4 week long run taper. One friend tried it twice and
both times had terrible races.

-DougF

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden] of
22 Feb 2005:

Quoted message said:

For my first marathon last year, I did my longest long run at 3 weeks
out. My weekend runs for the last 7 weeks looked like:

22, 10, 23, 10, 24, 12, 10, raceday

I had a lot of muscle damage in my quads after the race, which I felt
during the race, and made the last 5-6 miles very hard.

Did you suffer any quad pain in your 20+ mile runs? If not, what was it
about this marathon that made it different from your long training runs?
Was it on a harder surface? Was it more downhill than your long run route?
I think you need to look into the idea of training (especially long runs)
on similar terrain to that of the race.

Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Quoted message said:

I had a lot of muscle damage in my quads after the race, which I

felt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

during the race, and made the last 5-6 miles very hard.

Did you suffer any quad pain in your 20+ mile runs?

One or two left me with minor soreness the next day. Nothing remotely
close to the 3-4 days after the race.

Quoted message said:

If not, what was it
about this marathon that made it different from your long training

runs?

Quoted message said:

Was it on a harder surface? Was it more downhill than your long run

route?

I think the main factors were:
- first marathon
- first time combining race pace with long run distance
- no tuneup races during training to toughen up the legs
- race had an 8-mile-long slight downhill (~1%) from mi 5.5 to 13.5
(note: I paid this back on the uphill from 13.5 to 21.5)

Quoted message said:

I think you need to look into the idea of training (especially long

runs)

Quoted message said:

on similar terrain to that of the race.

I agree, and I have addressed all of the above factors to some extent.
The 3-week vs. 5-week lead time for longest long run was one further
idea to consider. I'm still undecided.

Thanks for the feedback.