Suggestions for lower back issues re: hockey

In article <1108579133.940203.129010
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, [email hidden] says...
back).

Quoted message said:

So my questions are:

1. For the rec.sport.hockey folks, is there something I can try as a
skater (usually defenseman) to change things so I don't end up hurting
myself repeatedly every single week?

Work on your skating stance. You're probably not bending
your knees enough, and this will cause you poor posture
skating, leading to back pain.

Quoted message said:

2. For the misc.fitness.weights people, outside of doing a lot of core
work and so forth, are there any suggestions for helping this?

If you're looking for a book, try "Complete Conditioning
for Ice Hockey" by Peter Twist.

--
Cam
#4

"Zerex71" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Greetings,

First time poster to both groups. I've had chronic lower back pain
(never thought I'd grow up to have that problem, but welcome to being
20 lbs. overweight and working a desk job) for about five years now or
so, and even though I spend about a half-hour before each ice hockey
game doing a variety of slow, controlled stretches, include a set
targeted specifically for my back, and even though my weight training
includes core training for my chest, abs, and upper/lower back, I
still
have trouble after (even during) each and every game where my back
feels strained and the next day or two I physically cannot move. It's
really annoying being only 34 and having this problem. I'm not doing
anything that I feel is out of bounds for what my body is capable of
doing, so it's either a lack of conditioning, or my skating is poor (I
do tend to skate "forward" so that I can have power, rather than with
a
straighter back).

So my questions are:

1. For the rec.sport.hockey folks, is there something I can try as a
skater (usually defenseman) to change things so I don't end up hurting
myself repeatedly every single week?

2. For the misc.fitness.weights people, outside of doing a lot of core
work and so forth, are there any suggestions for helping this?

Thanks very much to any and all who can help.

Mike

Deadlift. Can't say for sure whether it will help you but I had a
debilitating back injury about 8 years ago and deadlifting was what
saved me. I deadlift several times per week and I do swings with a
kettlebell every day. Both will help teach a tight belly, flexible and
strong hamstrings, and a strong lower back. See "Power To The People!"
http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm for more on deadlifting.

I would not stretch much before you play, and I'd be very careful of
your posture after you play. See Robin McKenzie's "Treat Your Own
Back," or the newer version, "7 Steps To A Pain Free Back and Neck", for
more about this - most back problems are from weakness or over
stretching, and if the tightness is due to weakness, stretching won't
help much (as you've found already, it sounds like). McKenzie's book is
a real lifesaver for many people, athletic and not. Pavel's book is
what helped me to get back to where I was before my injury and
eventually surpass anything I'd done before. Link to McKenzie Book -
http://www.optp.com - you'll see a picture of the cover right there.
Search on the author's last name for a link you can order from.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your good post. Re: the back stretches - The reason I do
them is because, when I was first diagnosed with my back problems, I
was advised that I would have to do this set of stretches every day
pretty much from the rest of the way out, to prevent any pain. For a
long time it worked, and then I lost my first increment of weight, and
have been slowly working my way down over time. After I found out that
my back no longer hurt, I stopped doing them regularly, but found that
if I do them at least once a week before a game, I don't have any
problems. But this year for some reason I've been having more
problems. I was told that the stretches do just that -- stretch the
"sheet" or "ropes" or muscle that line the spine and lower back, but I
wonder if what I'm doing is just leaning over too much, kind of like
walking around bent over with a barbell on my back. I am trying to do
my core strengthening so that I have support in the front as well as
the back (and I've read a lot that abdominal support, or lack thereof,
is one of the leading causes of lower back problems).

One of the main symptoms of the next day is the fact that I can't
straighten my back (sounds like a real surprise after being hunched
over, no?) -- to get up from my chair at work and stand straight up is
really painful. Also, if I were to try standing straight up and then
bending from one side to the other in an arc, I can do that either.
Twisting is painful too. But like today, everything seems to be fine,
and all I have is that residual muscle "feeling" (not pain or
stiffness) from a good back workout on Tuesday night.

Mike

Hi Cam,

Thanks for your helpful response. I've been told I might not be
bending my knees enough, however, it might be that over the years it's
felt unnatural to do that, and thus the reason I haven't. Plus, I'm
not too tall, only 5'8", with about a 29-inch inseam, so with all the
gear on, for me to bend is kind of difficult I think. But I'll try
this weekend and see if that helps. Also, I have Twist's book but have
never really incorporated it per se into my workouts. I'll give it a
try.

Thanks again.
Mike

In article <1108653298.431832.223880
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Hi Cam,

Thanks for your helpful response. I've been told I might not be
bending my knees enough, however, it might be that over the years it's
felt unnatural to do that, and thus the reason I haven't. Plus, I'm
not too tall, only 5'8", with about a 29-inch inseam, so with all the
gear on, for me to bend is kind of difficult I think. But I'll try
this weekend and see if that helps. Also, I have Twist's book but have
never really incorporated it per se into my workouts. I'll give it a
try.

I'd put money on the knees not bending enough. At the
start of the season, when I'm further out of shape than
usual, I get a sore back from playing. It goes straight to
my skating posture. I don't bend my knees enough, and end
up leaning forward too much. As my legs get back into the
knee bend routine, my posture improves, and my back feels
much better.

Your height has nothing at all to do with whether or not
you can do this. It's all in the posture of your body.
Sure you won't be able to bend your knees lowering your
butt as many INCHES, but the ANGLE of the knees doesn't
depend on your height.

There is also a chance that your skates could be
contributing to your posture. Too much skating in poor
posture will wear the blade unevenly. Continued
sharpenings will take more off the blade at the dull spots,
and less at the sharp spots. This changes the rocker of
the blade over time. Have your local competent skate shop
take a look at whether you need them re-profiled. It
should only be about $10-$15.

--
Cam
#4

"Zerex71" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your good post. Re: the back stretches - The reason I do
them is because, when I was first diagnosed with my back problems, I
was advised that I would have to do this set of stretches every day
pretty much from the rest of the way out, to prevent any pain. For a
long time it worked, and then I lost my first increment of weight, and
have been slowly working my way down over time. After I found out
that
my back no longer hurt, I stopped doing them regularly, but found that
if I do them at least once a week before a game, I don't have any
problems. But this year for some reason I've been having more
problems. I was told that the stretches do just that -- stretch the
"sheet" or "ropes" or muscle that line the spine and lower back, but I
wonder if what I'm doing is just leaning over too much, kind of like
walking around bent over with a barbell on my back. I am trying to do
my core strengthening so that I have support in the front as well as
the back (and I've read a lot that abdominal support, or lack thereof,
is one of the leading causes of lower back problems).

Stretches help many people for a while, but often muscles get tight
because they're just too weak to do the job at hand. If you get
stronger, you will help you back in the long run, I believe. The
muscles can take more in the way on shear forces if they're stronger.
If you do a lot of playing in a position that is less than ideal, you
might even try some round-back lifting of relatively light weights.
Either way, you want your back to get stronger. One of the reasons you
bend over may be simply that you're not strong enough to stand upright
with all the gear for a long time.

The other thing to consider is stretching your hip flexor and
hamstrings. Most people who sit all day have hamstrings and hip flexors
that are too tight, and lower backs that are too weak. The combination
is a formula for lower back problems. Ab work can help, but the whole
business of properply positioning your pelvis and lower back depends on
all these things, so it's best to strength the lower back, strength the
hamstrings, strengthen the abs, and stretch the hip flexors.
Eventually, of course, you want all of them to be both strong and
flexible, but it's usually best to focus on what might solve your
immediate problem. Both deadlifting and kettlebell swings will strength
abs, strengthen lower back, and stretch hamstrings if done properly.
Hip flexors are OK just to plain stretch for now for you.

Quoted message said:

One of the main symptoms of the next day is the fact that I can't
straighten my back (sounds like a real surprise after being hunched
over, no?) -- to get up from my chair at work and stand straight up is
really painful. Also, if I were to try standing straight up and then
bending from one side to the other in an arc, I can do that either.
Twisting is painful too. But like today, everything seems to be fine,
and all I have is that residual muscle "feeling" (not pain or
stiffness) from a good back workout on Tuesday night.

Part of it is getting older - not much you can do about that except
fight back. I'm pushing 50 and I definitely have to work harder at
keeping my back in good shape and the rest of me, too, than I did 5 or
10 years ago.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Mike

"Zerex71" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Greetings,

First time poster to both groups. I've had chronic lower back pain
(never thought I'd grow up to have that problem, but welcome to being
20 lbs. overweight and working a desk job) for about five years now or
so, and even though I spend about a half-hour before each ice hockey
game doing a variety of slow, controlled stretches, include a set
targeted specifically for my back, and even though my weight training
includes core training for my chest, abs, and upper/lower back, I still
have trouble after (even during) each and every game where my back
feels strained and the next day or two I physically cannot move.
[snip]

Just to add a non-kettleball note (and I'm not slagging the KBs, I'm sure
they're great, but I've never used them so I have a couple of other
thoughts):

I think Steve's post about hip flexors and hamstrings, etc is spot on. You
might try adding back extensions or reverse hypers to your workout. These
work the spinal erectors (which is what sounds like is hurting on you) and
hamstrings and stretch the hips. I do high rep work with these (which is
probably appropriate to you, too, because you're in a high rep kind of
demand mode while skating) and I think the world of them.

I'm also concerned about the slow, controlled stretches. These are probably
a good thing to do every morning (although...hmm, that reminds me of a post
Krista made about backs in the morning, I'll have to hunt it up) or _after_
your game. But before the game, you probably want a more kinetic or dynamic
stretch. How about leg swings or hindu squats? Something that warms up
your muscles rather than stretches them. Think of a rubber band. If it
gets all stretched out, it's easier to break. Same with muscles. Before
hand you want more warm up than stretching. Afterwards, after the game,
once they're really warm, then you can stretch out (gently) to work on any
tension that might contribute to soreness later.

And speaking of soreness, in a later post, it sounded like your soreness was
short-lived, right? So it's just soreness the next day or two, not like a
muscle strain that lingers? In that case, it sounds like DOMS (a weight
lifting thing, and since you're new to the group, I don't know if you're
familiar with the concept or not). That is often a result of not working
often enough. This is all leading up to: how often do you skate/play? Just
once a week? That may be the cause of some of the pain. Can you skate or
practice another day (night) of the week?

Just some thoughts,
Selene
not a hockey player (or even much of a skater)

Zerex71 said:

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your good post. Re: the back stretches - The reason I do
them is because, when I was first diagnosed with my back problems, I
was advised that I would have to do this set of stretches every day
pretty much from the rest of the way out, to prevent any pain.

Stretching can often provide immediate pain relief, but for most people
their backs are already flexible enough--or even /too/ flexible, really.
More often the problem is from inflexible hips, glutes, hamstrings,
and calves, combined with a weak and overstressed back/poor posture.
(depending on whatever your specific issues are; I haven't been
following this thread)

-Adam

2 things...first is your stretch routine. Keep doing your pre skate
routine, but for a stretch to really be effective you need to warm up
FIRST! After skating for 5 minutes or so, lay on the ice on your stomach
and push up with your arms keeping your hips on the ice. This is called
a cobra stretch and will target the lower back. Hold the stretch for
about 30 seconds and concentrate on trying to RELAX the lower back
muscles (the cobra position will make them contract). Do some hamstring
and groin stretches at this time as well.

The 2nd and most obvious is your ice time. Once a week is not nearly
enough, especially if it's a game where you're skating short shifts and
then spending time on the bench. Try for at the very least 2, or better
yet 3 times a week if you want to see improvement. Open skate is good
for an hour and a half of just skating. Drop-in hockey will get you
plenty of ice time with full equipment. Then game night will make 3 and
you will be amazed at how much better you feel. You'll play better too!

I'm 40 and have degeneterive disc disease in my lower back. I try to
play 2 to 4 times a week and have no lower back pain what so ever from
skating. It's actually NOT skating and being INACTIVE that makes my back
hurt. I rollerblade and cycle in the off season to try to stay in game
shape year round. If I don't then I have pain during the first couple
weeks of the season.

Hang in there, hope this helps.

Rich M

Hi Rich,

I'll give this a try tonight, and post my results/outcome from
tonight's game when I get back. I expect the usual bloodbath (it's an
informal men's league with no refs or anything, just a free-for-all,
but it's a great skate). I'm a converted defenseman myself. Right now
my back's a bit dodgy this week still from whatever I did earlier in
the week (plus hauling around a marching snare in my Scottish bagpipe
band all weekend).

Mike

Okay, and the results are in:

1. Aside from the fact that we were outmatched, outskated, outpassed,
and outcoordinated, we had a decent game. Nah, I'm just kidding. We
lost 12-5, though it's totally unofficial, and only I keep count for my
own purposes since it's not a stat league at all.

2. I made a conscious effort to keep my head up most of the time but I
still had puckitis a lot -- following the puck with my eyes more than I
should -- but for the most part I kept my back up and things went well.

3. Did the cobra stretch beforehand -- I see some guys do it every
week but since I do about 30 minutes of stretching beforehand, I never
saw the need for it. Concentrated on relaxing the muscles. Didn't
hear anything grind or pop, and got in a good groin stretch at the same
time. (That sounds so wrong, doesn't it?)

4. Thus far I haven't had any problems, at least no more than I went in
the game with. Even though I've started working my core again, and
since this time last year have lost 10-15 pounds, I'm actually having
more chronic issues back there than I used to, but oh well, I'm working
on it.

Thanks to all who helped. I still read all these individual posts
because there's a lot of great suggestions all of you sent my way.

Mike

You want to warm up before stretching because you can injure a muscle
when it is cold.

Stretching should be done AFTER the game rather than before. If you
want to do something useful before the game, scate around with the
puck until you have a little sweat. I admit it can be hard to do the
stretching after the game because you have no room to do stretching in
those small player rooms with the guys walking and the equipment and
sticks in the middle. What I do is going to an empty room where I can
stretch in peace.

Someone asked me during yesterday's game why I usually hold my stick
with just one hand. It is because holding with both hands hurt my
back. My hockey style which consists in not approaching more than 10
feet from the opponent's blue line does not give much the opportunity
to get the ball, so I can allow myself to hold my stick with one
hands. If the ball is coming at me, then I have plenty of time to put
my other hand on the stick.

I like Rick's Cobra stretching. It is the best that I know of. I don't
bother anymore to do the stretching on my back.

Denis

"Zerex71" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Greetings,

First time poster to both groups. I've had chronic lower back pain
(never thought I'd grow up to have that problem, but welcome to being
20 lbs. overweight and working a desk job) for about five years now or
so, and even though I spend about a half-hour before each ice hockey
game doing a variety of slow, controlled stretches, include a set
targeted specifically for my back, and even though my weight training
includes core training for my chest, abs, and upper/lower back, I still
have trouble after (even during) each and every game where my back
feels strained and the next day or two I physically cannot move. It's
really annoying being only 34 and having this problem. I'm not doing
anything that I feel is out of bounds for what my body is capable of
doing, so it's either a lack of conditioning, or my skating is poor (I
do tend to skate "forward" so that I can have power, rather than with a
straighter back).

So my questions are:

1. For the rec.sport.hockey folks, is there something I can try as a
skater (usually defenseman) to change things so I don't end up hurting
myself repeatedly every single week?

2. For the misc.fitness.weights people, outside of doing a lot of core
work and so forth, are there any suggestions for helping this?

Thanks very much to any and all who can help.

Mike

Hi Denis/group,

My back wasn't so bad the other night but after doing my back group
(and my arms group) last
night at the gym, the back definitely felt strained, and didn't stop
bugging me until this morning
after I slept. I am wondering if it's the lifts that I've been doing
at the gym - standing on an inclined
rowing platform with plates on the front end of it and instead of doing
bent-over rows, pulling the
weight up by standing up and straightening. (It's just one variation
of what you could do with
the machine.) That could very well be the problem, because I have
never had any problems
doing any of the other stuff, including heavy weights on the Cybex
Eagle back machine (I'm up
to doing reps with 185 lbs now).

Thoughts?

Mike