Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Tire Pressure

Started by CatSpin · · Last activity · 17 posts · 3,796 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Cycling Equipment
Published
1 March 2005
Last activity
17 May 2005
Original author
CatSpin
Posts
17
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
3,796
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–17 of 17
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. My Zipp rep just gave me an earful about riding my clincher 404's at 140lbs pressure with a 130 rate tire. He stated that one should only ride a tire at rating, not above and a harder tire (over-inflated) causes more problems wiht rolling resistance and traction than good.

    Why are some clincher tires rated so low 120 psi and others 140psi. Why would a racer choose a higher pressure than a lower one? Does racing dicipline, weight and one's personal cycling stength play a role in tire choice?

    Help,

    CatSpin

  2. The theory that higher tire pressure reduces rolling resistance only works on a perfectly smooth surface. On a typical road, resistance stops going down at about 110. Basically, you're riding up and down a bunch of little hills. A lower pressure allows the tire to conform around them and not waste as much energy. If you're on a track however, the surface is a lot smoother, and you can go as high as 200psi before performance drops off.

  3. The skinny on Zipps and pressure...
    http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/4177.0.html

    I don't think there's a concern at 140 if the tire is rated to handle it, but keep in mind that a long descent with contant braking will heat the rims... and with a ~1 psi increase per 10 degrees of heat, you're no longer at anything close to 140. And if you're not on a track, even the smoothest blacktop, you probably want to be in the 100-115ish range anyway for best wear and rolling resistance. There is another Zinn article in www.velownews.com tech section that talks about that in depth.

  4. viola http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/7507.0.html

  5. artmichalek said:

    The theory that higher tire pressure reduces rolling resistance only works on a perfectly smooth surface. On a typical road, resistance stops going down at about 110. Basically, you're riding up and down a bunch of little hills. A lower pressure allows the tire to conform around them and not waste as much energy. If you're on a track however, the surface is a lot smoother, and you can go as high as 200psi before performance drops off.

    Agree with you and RC2. I've read the same theory several places now, and my own experience with lower pressures confirms it. I used to run the max sidewall rating too, but began to experiment when I got Michelin Pro Race tires, since their sidewall specs a range (87 psi min to 116 psi max). Found then that 100f/105r works much better for ride, handling, grip and tire life than the 120 psi I had been using, with no increase in rolling resistance on real roads. For reference, my weight is 175 lbs.

    People still using very high pressures also need to be aware of the rim limits. Believe most MAVIC rims are only rated for up to 130 psi....you can check their website for the specs on your rim.

  6. I've wastold by a LBS guy back in the early 90's that the max rating was 1/2 of the blowout pressure. Example...If a tire sidewall blowsout at 240lbs of air pressure, then the max raiting is set at 120.

  7. Talk about blow-out pressures.....I keep our Bikes in a spare Bedroom...one night, I was changing my wife's MTB Tires out to those specialized Fatboy slicks...I pumped to around 80psi and KERRRRRBOOOOOOMMMMM!!!

    I can tell you from experience that a Tube bursting in an enclosed Room makes your ears ring for over an hour....

    WHAT???!!!!

    garagedog said:

    I've wastold by a LBS guy back in the early 90's that the max rating was 1/2 of the blowout pressure. Example...If a tire sidewall blowsout at 240lbs of air pressure, then the max raiting is set at 120.

  8. Jaguar27 said:

    Talk about blow-out pressures.....I keep our Bikes in a spare Bedroom...one night, I was changing my wife's MTB Tires out to those specialized Fatboy slicks...I pumped to around 80psi and KERRRRRBOOOOOOMMMMM!!!

    I can tell you from experience that a Tube bursting in an enclosed Room makes your ears ring for over an hour....

    WHAT???!!!!

    LOL Reminds me of way back in college when the same type of thing happpened to me with a road tube. I had a single dorm room; 8.5'x11', cinder block walls, concrete ceiling and floor. Talc cloud. Would love to have had a picture of the look on my face.:eek:

  9. artmichalek said:

    The theory that higher tire pressure reduces rolling resistance only works on a perfectly smooth surface. On a typical road, resistance stops going down at about 110. Basically, you're riding up and down a bunch of little hills. A lower pressure allows the tire to conform around them and not waste as much energy. If you're on a track however, the surface is a lot smoother, and you can go as high as 200psi before performance drops off.

    WORD!
    www.kingzoftheroad.com

  10. garagedog said:

    I've wastold by a LBS guy back in the early 90's that the max rating was 1/2 of the blowout pressure. Example...If a tire sidewall blowsout at 240lbs of air pressure, then the max raiting is set at 120.


    Sort of. A tire rated for 120psi will probably blow out around 240psi or so depending on what rim it's on. More than blowout pressure goes into the manufacturers rating though. The laminated structure of a tire is designed around a specific set of load and deformation parameters. If you consistently over or under inflate a tire, it's going to delaminate and fall apart long before the rubber wears out.

    Also, in addition to increasing drag an overinflated tire can be pretty dangerous for cornering. When a 23mm tire inflated to 110psi (good fun with mixed units...) rolls over a piece of debris on the order of 1mm in diameter, the tire deforms around it and still maintains contact with the road. (Actual performance varies based on things like thread count and tread thickness.) Pump that same tire up to 140psi and instead of deforming it rides up on top of the debris. Kind of like riding around a corner on a road covered with ball bearings.

  11. Here's the real [censored] guys:

    [quote]
    [font=Verdana]This report filed February 2, 2000[/font]
    [font=Verdana][font=Verdana]Written by Josh at Zipp: Here is an excerpt from a PM I sent to somebody a few weeks ago on this identical topic. I hope this helps clarify things somewhat...[/font] [/font]

    [font=Verdana][font=Verdana]The outer aluminum hoop in our clincher rims weighs only 200 grams, and therefore will get much hotter than a standard aluminum rim. Since the temperature of something is relative to the energy input/mass, a 200 gram rim will get twice as hot as a 400 gram rim for the same energy input. What happens is that if your descending a mountain at 70 degrees and you brake for 2 minutes and your standard aluminum rims heat to 220 degrees (an increase of 150) this same condition with a 200 gram clincher rim will result in a rim temp of roughly 370. Since the carbon is such a good insulator, the rims just have nowhere else to put the heat, so they get hot. This in itself is not the end of the world, except that tubes can melt at these temps, but considering that your tire pressure will rise at a rate of roughly 1psi per 10 degrees, you will see a corresponding tire pressure increase of 30psi.[/font] [/font]

    [font=Verdana][font=Verdana]Assuming your tire pressures are at 125, everything is fine almost regardless of the tire you are using, but if you were at say 160 and then had this same situation, your pressure could elevate to 190 which could be a terminal situation causing the tire to blow off of the rim.[/font] [/font]

    [font=Verdana][font=Verdana]We have seen temperatures intermittently hit 350-400 degrees in mountain testing in the Alps, so the case described here can actually happen. Since there is a pretty wide band of tolerance for tire fit, we can only guarantee that your tires will remain properly seated at their recommended pressures, and must recommend a pressure of our own. We make our rims at the large end of the diameter tolerance for ISO classification, meaning it is harder to get tires onto the rims and therefore harder for them to blow off, but airpressure is such a powerful and explosive force, that when combined with heat we must be very, very safe, not to mention that as tires age and stretch, their pressure capability is reduced, so there are numerous factors which must be accounted for here. Every rim manufacturer has a recommended pressure in this range in their literature, some just advertise it more than others, Mavic for example has a nifty sliding scale relative to tire width allowing for 135psi MAX for a 19mm down 115 psi MAX for a 25mm tire, and we have advised similarly, and for all the same reasons.[/font] [/font]

    [font=Verdana][font=Verdana]The other issue to consider is that most every tire on the market runs at optimal rolling resistance between 105 and 125psi depending on load and road surface condition. We have seen data from numerous manufacturers and had enlightening talks with others to learn that nylon cased tires like Michelin or Continental tend to run optimally around 105-115 and cotton or bias cased tires like Vittoria or Vredestein tend to run optimally at 115-125 maybe as high as 130 for Vredestein, but all of them actually will increase in rr at higher pressures due to the tread rubber beginning to fail in shear as it locally deforms to meet the contour of the road imperfections when the casing is too rigid. Think of it in terms of heat input, as the overinflated tire struggles to conform to all the tiny surface imperfections to make the necessary contact patch, a lot of heat is generated. Not only is there higher rr, but faster tire wear as well at higher pressures, not to mention the tires decreasing ability to stay mounted on the rim as pressure increases. In an ideal world tire manufacturers would list a recommended pressure and not just a MAX pressure (the max pressure is simply a predetermined percentage of the bursting pressure of a given tire as set out by industry standards and has nothing to do with the pressure you should actually run) but they are between the rock and hard place as consumers continually push for higher and higher pressures feeling that ‘if some is good, more is better'. Of course none of this even mentions comfort, which we believe to be of increasing importance as more and more data has shown fatigue to be caused by vibration. It may be that by increasing tire pressure by 20-25 psi, you feel faster as your tires are transfering more of the high frequency vibration to your body (you're feeling a higher frequency 'faster' vibrations' so it really does 'feel' faster) but are actually expending more energy to do it, while simultaneously wearing out the tires faster and inducing fatigue.[/font] [/font]

    [font=Verdana][font=Verdana]Looking to pro road teams, most of them are running 100-110 psi in tubulars and 105-120 psi in clinchers, and this has been a bit of a knock against the clinchers from the pros, that they prefer the lower pressures for improved handling, grip and feel, but need additional air to prevent pinch flats. Especially of issue are rainy races, where they may even lower pressure to 95 psi or so for better grip and control in the corners. The only real exception here would be track racing, especially on wood, where the surface is so smooth that very high tire pressures can yield excellent RR results, but still generally reduce grip slightly, but even this is specific as a board track may runn well at 220psi, but a concrete track favors 150-160psi, and some track surfaces are no better than most roads... For an analogous example, look to Inline Skate racing, where they carefully select the durometer (firmness) of their wheels to the surface they are racing on, this is nearly as critical as ski wax in ski racing as it can win or lose races for you. It is so critical as too hard a wheel will get you dropped like a hot rock on most road surfaces, whereas that same wheel is the only way to be competitive indoors on wood.
    Josh[/quote] [/font][/font]

    [font=Verdana][font=Verdana]http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/7507.0.html
    [/font] [/font]

  12. The well known, large tyre brands spend considerable R&D dollar$$ on designing and developing their tyres.

    To go totally against their recommendations on pressures etc. doesn't seem to be the best idea. That said, some small variation around the recommendations might make the ride more suitable to your own style.

    Cheers,

    bicyclerubber.com

    All the rubber your bikes need !

  13. domaindomain said:

    The well known, large tyre brands spend considerable R&D dollar$$ on designing and developing their tyres.

    To go totally against their recommendations on pressures etc. doesn't seem to be the best idea. That said, some small variation around the recommendations might make the ride more suitable to your own style.

    Cheers,

    bicyclerubber.com

    All the rubber your bikes need !


    Yes, but in most cases they don't give recommendations; only the maximum rated pressure is put on the sidewall. Michelin Pro Race is the only exception I know; they show 6-8 Bar (87-116 psi) as the recommended range. Believe this is a good working range for any 23 mm tire.

    This is different than cars, which are required to show the recommended pressure ratings on a placard where it can be easily read (at least in the US). My car has four different sets of pressures, depending on load and speed range. The max pressure on the tire sidewall is 44 psi, much higher than any pressure recommended for the car. Running the tires at max sidewall pressure would give very poor roadholding and ride.

  14. dhk said:

    Michelin Pro Race is the only exception I know; they show 6-8 Bar (87-116 psi) as the recommended range.


    As far as I know all of the Michelins have both a minimum and maximum on the sidewall. At least the Axial BiSport and HiLite Prestige do.

  15. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=107236

    This "argument" got more interesting over on Bike Forums

  16. "What is the optimum tire pressure?"

    THE answer is: experiment between known reasonable limits for your specific tire casing/size, total bike/rider weight, conditions, and personal preferences. When you find what works best for you, stick with it and ignore the debates.

    Example: for me @ about 225 lbs. total bike/rider weight, I get good results from the Vred Fortezza 25c @ around 115 front/128 rear.

    Otherwise, I really don't care if Your Mileage May Vary! You're not on MY bike.

  17. CatSpin said:

    My Zipp rep just gave me an earful about riding my clincher 404's at 140lbs pressure with a 130 rate tire. He stated that one should only ride a tire at rating, not above and a harder tire (over-inflated) causes more problems wiht rolling resistance and traction than good.

    Why are some clincher tires rated so low 120 psi and others 140psi. Why would a racer choose a higher pressure than a lower one? Does racing dicipline, weight and one's personal cycling stength play a role in tire choice?

    Help,

    CatSpin

    Maximum rated pressure is usually the result of an argument betwwen the marketing people , who want it as high as possible , and the lawyers , who want it as low as possible - if there´s a reccomended pressure on the sidewall or website then that´s the technicians imput : go from that figure and see how it feels but don´t forget that too much pressure causes as many problems as too little .

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.