Table manners

I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners. I
would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and vice
versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a few
basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the table
when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others, eat
with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and don't
entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents of
your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may harm
the dog.

As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to you
and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion however
you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or you
chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't see
myself as a manners Nazi.

I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes me
cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a restaurant.
The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything wrong.
I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be long
term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.

The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the table
for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the plate.
He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
family dinner or a restaurant?

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?

David

Good manners are, quite simply, consideration for other people.

Your wife has got to a lot of trouble to prepare the meal, to set the
table. You are setting the standard of behavior for your group.

If this man is offending you and your family( as you have indicated),
you have your family to consider. Take him aside, tell him to sit up,
--tell him he is making your family uncomfortable, and you would like
for him to show consideration for the rest of you.

It would help him in the other areas of his life, too. Surely he is
offending others where he eats, at a lunch counter, at work, etc. He
needs help.

nancree said:

Good manners are, quite simply, consideration for other people.

Your wife has got to a lot of trouble to prepare the meal, to set the
table. You are setting the standard of behavior for your group.

If this man is offending you and your family( as you have indicated),
you have your family to consider. Take him aside, tell him to sit

up,

Quoted message said:

--tell him he is making your family uncomfortable, and you would like
for him to show consideration for the rest of you.

Absolutely not. He is a guest in the home and you should never, ever,
correct the manners of a guest. If he is *that* offensive, he should
not be invited to your table again.

Quoted message said:

It would help him in the other areas of his life, too. Surely he is
offending others where he eats, at a lunch counter, at work, etc. He
needs help.

It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
Mother.

As an aside, an observation: If the man has reached adulthood and
still has poor table manners it is unlikely that anything anyone says
to him will make one iota of difference.

-L.

"David Hare-Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners. I
would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and
vice
versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a few
basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the
table
when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others,
eat
with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and
don't
entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents of
your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may
harm
the dog.

As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to
you
and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion
however
you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or
you
chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't see
myself as a manners Nazi.

I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes me
cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a
restaurant.
The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
wrong.
I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be
long
term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.

The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the
table
for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the
plate.
He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
family dinner or a restaurant?

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?

David

You have my sympathies. I once worked at a company where one of the managers
had non-existent table manners. He sort of hunched over his plate and
shoveled food in like someone was going to take it away from him. If he had
something to say during this shoveling, he said it, while continuing the
shoveling. Non-speaking sounds were as disturbing as well.

At company events, those in the know would make sure they weren't sitting
next to or across from him, and never told newbies what to expect. It was
unpleasant to say the least. It astounded me that he made it to a managerial
level with those manners, but I would suspect that he wasn't invited to
meals where customers were also invited.

As for your family member/guest, perhaps chiding children about their
manners in his presence? Although something that subtle may not work.

Pointing it out to him at the table probably isn't a good idea either, but
if someone close to him could take him aside and talk to him. Make it sound
like you folks are really persnickety, and not that he's a piggy. That way
he saves face.

Or, come up with "new" table rules based on ethnicity of various dishes. Low
table, floor-sitting, and chopsticks might force him into new posture.

Whatever you do, you probably want to do it while this is all sort of new,
otherwise it's going to be hard to explain why you put up with him for a
couple years before mentioning it.

Good Luck.

In article <[email hidden]>, "David

Hare-Scott said:

The offender (adult male) sits with their

his

Quoted message said:

chair way back from the
table, then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid
falling with his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half
both arms on the table for balance. The result is that his face is
about 6 inches from the plate. He sits up to speak most of the time
but occasionally his dinner conversation emanates from his soup bowl.
This must be very economical on arm movements while feeding but it
looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an
informal family dinner or a restaurant?

Well, no.

Quoted message said:

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so
what?

You should. T his is the sort of behavior that can be career limiting
if done in the presence of the boss and/or clients. Someone needs to
suck it up and take him aside and kindly tell him he needs some work.
Have you any idea how he might cotton to such a conversation? Has it
EVER been brought up to him? If it has and he simply refuses to change
his ways then you all have to decide if you're going to ignore and
accept, stop inviting him to dinner, or nag him until you sufficiently
[censored] him off that he'll refuse to partake at your table.

Maybe the folks at the etiquette group have a better solution or
suggestion.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> Arizona vacation pics added 3-24-05.
"I read recipes the way I read science fiction: I get to the end and
say,'Well, that's not going to happen.'" - Comedian Rita Rudner,
performance at New York, New York, January 10, 2005.

Barb replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

table, then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid
falling with his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half
both arms on the table for balance. The result is that his face is
about 6 inches from the plate. He sits up to speak most of the time
but occasionally his dinner conversation emanates from his soup bowl.
This must be very economical on arm movements while feeding but it
looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

This is the sort of behavior that can be career limiting
if done in the presence of the boss and/or clients. Someone needs to
suck it up and take him aside and kindly tell him he needs some work.

Geez, you guys! This is a SPLENDID opportunity to have the family work as a
team! Here's what you do: At some prearranged signal, EVERYBODY should move
their chair as far back as possible, then adopt exactly the posture and
mannerisms of the offender.

I can just imagine...

Bob

David Hare-Scott said:

[snip]
I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine
makes me cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated
anything. I don't feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed
if we were in a restaurant.

Don't invite him out with you to a restaurant. In the meantime,
uncringe yourself. In other words, so far it's just your problem, not
his.

Quoted message said:

The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
wrong.

And if you tell him there is, in your opinion, something wrong with his
behavior, what will he take to be the underlying subtext? Is it, we
really like you but you may not be aware that your manners put people
off? Or is it, god I can hardly eat my food watching the spectacle you
make of yourself! Or is it, you're such a clod in comparison to me
that I want to urge you to come up to my loftier standard. I'm
exaggerating, but the point is that people often react strongly and
negatively to well-meaning criticism. Particularly when they don't
think there is a problem, as is the case here.

Quoted message said:

I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard
to bear.

So bear it anyway, or run the risk of embarassing and hurting him.

Quoted message said:

Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to
be long term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.

Why not grin and bear it? I was always taught that tolerance of others
was an essential component of good manners. You're saying none of your
other friends have any annoying habits or mannerisms? Which do you
choose to bring to their attention?

Quoted message said:

[snip description] ...it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

So what?

Quoted message said:

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an
informal family dinner or a restaurant?

Quoted message said:

From your tone, my guess is that your concept of "informal" and mine

differ. I want guests at my informal table to enjoy themselves, which
they won't if I make them uncomfortable. You've already said you'd be
embarrassed in a restaurant with him.

Quoted message said:

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so

what?

Quoted message said:

If he becomes family, then the closest family member might consider it,
or if he becomes a really close friend whom you know so well you can
tailor the message to be effective but not insulting. Until then all
you've really said is that the way he eats is unusual and you don't
like it. If you make something of it before you have a close
relationship with him, you will never get that close.

I would make an exception and consider saying something if the person
were not an adult or were from another culture but you haven't
indicated that to be the case. -aem

David Hare-Scott said:

<snip for brevity>

Quoted message said:

The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the

table,

Quoted message said:

then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling

with

Quoted message said:

his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on

the table

Quoted message said:

for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the

plate.

Quoted message said:

He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very

economical on

Quoted message said:

arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to

me.

Quoted message said:

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an

informal

Quoted message said:

family dinner or a restaurant?

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so

what?

Quoted message said:

I think you are over-reacting. As some other posters have said, this
man is a guest in your house and entitled to the host's and hostess's
perfect courtesy. And IMO that courtesy includes ensuring his comfort,
refraining from criticism, ignoring lapses (that don't endanger people
or damage property, etc).

His dining table posture is unusual but there is nothing "disgusting"
happening, really. Apparently, he isn't eating with his hands or
snarfing his food mouth to plate; he isn't blowing his nose in his
napkin; he isn't talking with his mouth full or spewing food about;
nothing is dribbling out of his mouth; he isn't spitting out food he
dislikes. In fact, from what you've said, he tries to be agreeable and
join in the conversation.

He's a regular guest (and it doesn't sound as tho he's a friend of
yours) For some reason you're being coy about his relationship with the
family, but I assume he's a special friend or fiance of a woman in your
family. Later, when (if) he becomes a member of the family his spouse
might take up the task of scooting his chair closer to the table.

In the meantime, lighten up.

Mac

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bob"

virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz said:

Barb replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

table, then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To
avoid falling with his face in the meal he then lay both elbows
and half both arms on the table for balance. The result is that
his face is about 6 inches from the plate. He sits up to speak
most of the time but occasionally his dinner conversation emanates
from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on arm movements
while feeding but itlooks really ugly and clumsy to me. <snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the sort of behavior that can be career limiting if done in
the presence of the boss and/or clients. Someone needs to suck it
up and take him aside and kindly tell him he needs some work.

Quoted message said:

Geez, you guys! This is a SPLENDID opportunity to have the family
work as a team! Here's what you do: At some prearranged signal,
EVERYBODY should move their chair as far back as possible, then adopt
exactly the posture and mannerisms of the offender.

Quoted message said:

I can just imagine...

Bob

LOL! Shame on you! If the offensive guest were born into the family,
yeah, maybe; if he's not a member of the family now, that All Family act
might just get him out the front door never to be seen again unless he's
also possessed of an exceptional sense of humor. What's your backup
plan? "-)
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> Arizona vacation pics added 3-24-05.
"I read recipes the way I read science fiction: I get to the end and
say,'Well, that's not going to happen.'" - Comedian Rita Rudner,
performance at New York, New York, January 10, 2005.

"aem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Hare-Scott said:

[snip]
I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine
makes me cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated
anything. I don't feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed
if we were in a restaurant.

Don't invite him out with you to a restaurant. In the meantime,
uncringe yourself. In other words, so far it's just your problem, not
his.

Good point. As hosts, your task is to make your guests feel welcome and
comfortable. While this person's table behavior does seem odd there is
nothing really rude about it, is there? You and your family should relax and
enjoy the meal and company.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
wrong.]

And what exactly is wrong other than the fact that he does not sit and eat
the way you think he should?

Quoted message said:

Why not grin and bear it? I was always taught that tolerance of others
was an essential component of good manners. You're saying none of your
other friends have any annoying habits or mannerisms? Which do you
choose to bring to their attention?

And how many of your friends are resisting saying something to you about
your own behavior that they don't like?

A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was holding a
state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the finger bowls were
brought around, the king picked his up and drank the contents. The Queen
immediately did the same, followed by all the other guests. Now *that's*
manners!

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

"Peter Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was
holding a state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the
finger bowls were brought around, the king picked his up and drank the
contents. The Queen immediately did the same, followed by all the
other guests. Now *that's* manners!

LOL!!!

Andy

--
"If you can't do it naturally, then fake it."
- Alfred Hitchcock
Spoken to Ingrid Bergman

On Sat 26 Mar 2005 07:09:52a, Peter Aitken wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was
holding a state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the
finger bowls were brought around, the king picked his up and drank the
contents. The Queen immediately did the same, followed by all the other
guests. Now *that's* manners!

Hmmm... Tepid water, probably with a bit of lemon. Palate cleanser?

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

Sheldon said:

spend so much time observing/criticising other's minutia then it's your
table manners that are in dire need of remedy... QUIT STARING AT
PEOPLE!

Sheldon, I think I would be quite a popular guest in a traditional
Chinese home - you know, slurping, belching (well, maybe not an
audible belch)- not being afraid to admit that you enjoy the food. I
do have to occasionally eat meals with a guy (upper-level management
type) who seems to be fairly sophisticated in general, but never fails
to blow his nose at the table. Disgusting.

Peter Aitken wrote:

<snip for brevity>

Quoted message said:

A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was

holding a

Quoted message said:

state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the finger

bowls were

Quoted message said:

brought around, the king picked his up and drank the contents. The

Queen

Quoted message said:

immediately did the same, followed by all the other guests. Now

*that's*

Quoted message said:

manners!

Indeed. One of our (U.S.) presidents was not quite so polite with his
guests. President Coolidge was presiding at a dinner, and was seen to
pour cream/milk in his saucer. The other guests followed suit (and
rumor has it that at least one began to sip from the saucer). Coolidge
smiled and then placed his saucer on the floor, where his cat was
waiting for the treat.

Mac

AlleyGator said:

Sheldon said:

spend so much time observing/criticising other's minutia then it's

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

table manners that are in dire need of remedy... QUIT STARING AT
PEOPLE!

Sheldon, I think I would be quite a popular guest in a traditional
Chinese home - you know, slurping, belching (well, maybe not an
audible belch)-

Where did you acquire that concept regarding Chinese people.

not being afraid to admit that you enjoy the food. I

Quoted message said:

do have to occasionally eat meals with a guy (upper-level management
type) who seems to be fairly sophisticated in general, but never

fails

Quoted message said:

to blow his nose at the table. Disgusting.

I see nothing terrible about an occasional discrete nose blowing,
provided it's not into the table linen. I'm pretty certain you and the
OP have not been in the military... yoose two whiny wusses sure sound
like mamma's boys... yoose infants wouldn't last two hours in boot
camp... yoose need to grow up, grow some intestinal fortitude.

Sheldon

Sheldon said:

I see nothing terrible about an occasional discrete nose blowing,
provided it's not into the table linen. I'm pretty certain you and the
OP have not been in the military... yoose two whiny wusses sure sound
like mamma's boys... yoose infants wouldn't last two hours in boot
camp... yoose need to grow up, grow some intestinal fortitude.

Sheldon

I don't wanna grow up (bad cue for a song) - I'm not talking about a
meal with the guys at a campout. I'm talking about a nice place -
blowing your nose at the table, in a resturant, is low-class. I
don't mean a sniff - I mean a honk. Wet snot sound - the kind that
makes your throat slam shut.

David Hare-Scott <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[text of guest's style vs. host's elided]

Quoted message said:

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about
it? If so what?

No; it's a no-win situation no matter how you approach it.

You have to decide if the long-term relationship you're cultivating is
worth the 30-minute trial at every mealtime.

The Ranger
---
"I'm not allowed to kill you; that's against the rules. But you'd be
amazed at what you can survive."
-- Jafar, Aladdin 2

<snip>

I

Quoted message said:

don't mean a sniff - I mean a honk. Wet snot sound - the kind that
makes your throat slam shut.

This made me cry that I laughed so hard. You have quite a way with
words...

Ginny

I think the oldest English rule is to do what the hostess does, and she goes
first. I believe it stems form the Victorian penchant for trying all things
new, (and practically speaking, it was damn unlikely you would how to eat
some steamed malay root)
She makes the first move on every dish, and you follow her lead - same
utensil, her manners, etc. You then know how and when and with what.

Story goes that Queen Victoria was hosting a political state dinner with
the Raj of some large Indian state.
He picked up the finger bowl (scented with floating rose petals) and
proceeded to drink out of it, much to the chagrin of the aghast guests.
Queen Victoria immediately proceeded to pick up her finger bowl and sip
from it, and the others followed her lead - important guest saved from
embarrassment by the first rules of hosting - what the hostess does is
proper, and the hostess goes first.

"David Hare-Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners.

I

Quoted message said:

would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and

vice

Quoted message said:

versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a few
basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the

table

Quoted message said:

when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others,

eat

Quoted message said:

with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and

don't

Quoted message said:

entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents of
your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may

harm

Quoted message said:

the dog.

As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to

you

Quoted message said:

and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion

however

Quoted message said:

you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or

you

Quoted message said:

chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't see
myself as a manners Nazi.

I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes me
cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a

restaurant.

Quoted message said:

The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything

wrong.

Quoted message said:

I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be

long

Quoted message said:

term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.

The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the

table

Quoted message said:

for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the

plate.

Quoted message said:

He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
family dinner or a restaurant?

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?

David