"I'm going to knock your head off with a baseball bat"

Preston Crawford <[email hidden]> wrote:

[story of flagrant automotive bullying snipped]

Quoted message said:

Of course, I shout back that I'm going to call the police and he'll go to
jail for assault, I pull my cell phone out and start to dial, he starts
cussing loudly to himself in the car staring forward.

Preston,

I'm sorry you had this experience. Many of us have. If you started
the dialing process on your phone, that (IMHO) is the best and only
thing you should have done.

Cyclists taking on cars is a high risk, low reward proposition. If
you have a camera in that phone of yours, take a pic of him, his car,
and his license plate if you can, then go to the Police station with
all of that.

Here's one received on the ListServ for San Diego County Bicycle
Coalition:

"On Tuesday, 3/22 around 3pm, I was biking along Nobel, past Lebon,
toward Genessee, when a passenger from a passing car leaned halfway
out the window and bashed me over the head with a baseball bat, then
sped away. I did not crash. The license plate started with "3P" and
I think the 3rd character was "W." I could not get the make or model
of the car, but it was a color about pink. I have reported the
incident to the police."

Be careful out there.

Preston Crawford said:

In the end he drove off, I road off, but I'm really starting to get tired
of this garbage. This happens far too often and I do everything you're
supposed to do when it comes to riding. And yet still it happens. And it's
never "damn you for passing me" or "how dare you take the lane". The road
raging is always because I'm on the road period. Period! Nothing more.
Nothing less. You don't deserve to be on the road, so I'm going to
threaten to kill you. What can you do when faced with this? I'm so sick of
it. I want to carry a camera with me and just photograph the hell out of
these people and take them to court. I wonder if I should carry mace with
me at all times. I don't want to. I'm not a fighter. But at a certain
point when not only are you being threatened by their vehicles, but
they're threatening to wield weapons, what do you do? I'm at a loss.

Preston

Preston, also accept my sympathy and empathy for what happened to you. If
these people knew what a kind and wonderful person you were they would
never think of talking to you like that. We need more great guys like you
in the world.

I think you did the right thing. Get the phone out, get out of this guy's
way and be prepared to call it in with the license number. A camera phone
that could resolve a license number would be ideal. No need to actually
complete the call, though if there is an online 'bad driver' dB it could
help if they get other road rage calls.

Once you got the cell out, this mere fact caused the guy to realize he was
out-smarted and thus was thwarted.

As far as carrying mace. You only really need to have mace if you think
that someone will confront you and this is very unlikely. The chances that
you could get it out and spray them are very small. You're vulnerable on
the bike and by getting out mace you might risk escalation. However there
have been instances where people got out of cars and walked up to cyclists.

In that event the first thing you want to do if you can't immediately
escape and ride off down a side street is get off the bike. (Sitting on the
bike makes you a sitting duck for getting punched with one foot clipped
in.)

Put the bike between you and them and at the first opportunity get out of
there. It's really not a personal attack. It's actually an anonymous thing
- they don't know you. It's best to avoid, because it's extremely unlikely
that you will ever see this person again.

What worries me about these kinds of guys is that if you provoke them then
the next guy that has to confront them on a bike might have a much harder
time with them. Who knows you might have been a victim of such an event
where he had a minor encounter with a biker and the guy flipped him off and
rode away before he could say something.

But don't let it get to you, man. Come on rbm and tell your buds and we'll
give you hugs and props and then blow it off. Keep riding.

In fact you helped me today with your post to appreciate how nice (in
comparison) everybody is in my town... ;-)

jj

"jj" wrote: (clip) In that event the first thing you want to do if you
can't immediately escape and ride off down a side street is get off the
bike. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, keep in mind that if he starts to get out of the car, you may be
able to position yourself to ride off. That's going to leave him looking
pretty stupid. This is one circumstance where I believe everyone will agree
that riding on the sidewalk or against traffic would be justified.

frkrygow said:

Preston Crawford said:

... But at a certain
point when not only are you being threatened by their vehicles, but
they're threatening to wield weapons, what do you do? I'm at a loss.

First, what you did was fine. It worked, and the guy is probably
frustrated in knowing that the law is on your side. He may even learn
from the experience. At this point, let it go. Don't fret about it.
Don't accept the negative energy.

It happens to us all, and I know very well that it is sometimes hard to
let it go. I can list a half-dozen instances that _still_ gall me. But
I will not even relate them, since that only makes it worse.

After several instances within a week at one intersection, I altered my
commute route to avoid it. No problems since. Some roads tend to
generate this [censored]. Am I being cowardly by avoiding the confrontations? 
Should we seek out, or seek to avoid, situations that lead to
confrontation? For me, the two routes are more-or-less equivalent. The
new route involves a left turn onto an artery without benefit of a light
(avoiding that was the reason to take the road-rage route), but since
traffic is usually backed up at this point, it's not a problem usually.

BTW, just taking pictures is not enough. All you see is pictures of a
red-faced fool giving you the finger. Hardly a death threat there. You
need full-motion video with sound to get their ass in jail. Until your
phone has that, you flat-out will not win in court, and we all know it.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all
_`\(,_ | mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so
(_)/ (_) | that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am
nothing. [1 Corinth. 13:2]

jj said:

In that event the first thing you want to do if you can't immediately
escape and ride off down a side street is get off the bike. (Sitting on the
bike makes you a sitting duck for getting punched with one foot clipped
in.)

Put the bike between you and them

This advise works better for dogs than for rednecks. But then, the dogs
are less belligerent, and smarter.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Preston Crawford said:

The road
raging is always because I'm on the road period. Period! Nothing more.
Nothing less.

Yer durn tootin'. But without cyclists to get mad at,
they'd just get mad at something/somebody else. Some
people just ain't happy unless they're angry.

Quoted message said:

You don't deserve to be on the road, so I'm going to
threaten to kill you. What can you do when faced with this?

I figure those red-faced fools with the bulging neck veins
are more likely to end up killing themselves, getting all
worked up to the point of having cardiac episodes.
It's pitiable, really.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

This happens all the time and i know, i know...don't respond to it...

recently though my racing son on a training ride had a good rejoinder...

It was suggested to him that he get on "THE SIDEWALK" by an RV driver (in
this instance an idiot)...

He responded "I hope gas goes to 8 dollars a gallon"

Kinda proud of him for that both because it was pithy and also off the
cuff...

"Preston Crawford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This for riding my bike in traffic today. I was riding down the street
that runs from my home to the intersection of the main artery towards the
light rail. I was in the right lane, waiting for cars to pass, then
signaled to get into the left lane to turn onto the main artery. Pretty
mundane stuff. I look behind me with my mirror, then over my shoulder to
make sure the car behind me (which is moving back and forth aggressively)
isn't going to pass me on the left as I get into the left lane. He doesn't
and I get into the left lane.

This is where it gets weird. He starts yelling at me to "f***ing get on
the sidewalk". This, also, is typical. I'm used to hearing this on an
almost bi-weekly basis from the citizens of Beaverton, Oregon. We live in
a bicycle friendly community. Right. I guess that's relative (i.e. they
don't throw things at us, they only threaten to kill us). Anyway, he's
yelling at me to get on the sidewalk calling me an "f***ing idiot" (with
no hint of irony). Finally I try to explain to him (and I seriously mean
explain, I'll be the first to admit that I've given the finger or shouted
back at someone before who was road raging) that bikes are allowed on the
road. Then he says "I'm going to knock your head off with a baseball bat".
Of course, I shout back that I'm going to call the police and he'll go to
jail for assault, I pull my cell phone out and start to dial, he starts
cussing loudly to himself in the car staring forward.

In the end he drove off, I road off, but I'm really starting to get tired
of this garbage. This happens far too often and I do everything you're
supposed to do when it comes to riding. And yet still it happens. And it's
never "damn you for passing me" or "how dare you take the lane". The road
raging is always because I'm on the road period. Period! Nothing more.
Nothing less. You don't deserve to be on the road, so I'm going to
threaten to kill you. What can you do when faced with this? I'm so sick of
it. I want to carry a camera with me and just photograph the hell out of
these people and take them to court. I wonder if I should carry mace with
me at all times. I don't want to. I'm not a fighter. But at a certain
point when not only are you being threatened by their vehicles, but
they're threatening to wield weapons, what do you do? I'm at a loss.

Preston

jj said:

Preston, also accept my sympathy and empathy for what happened to you. If
these people knew what a kind and wonderful person you were they would
never think of talking to you like that. We need more great guys like you
in the world.

Well, I'm not sure I deserve that kind of praise, but I appreciate it
nonetheless. Thanks.

Quoted message said:

I think you did the right thing. Get the phone out, get out of this guy's
way and be prepared to call it in with the license number. A camera phone
that could resolve a license number would be ideal. No need to actually
complete the call, though if there is an online 'bad driver' dB it could
help if they get other road rage calls.

Yeah, no camera phone here. Too bad in this case, I guess. I thought about
maybe just getting an ultra-small camera, but what a pain that I'd have to
carry that on me at all times for idiots like this.

Quoted message said:

Once you got the cell out, this mere fact caused the guy to realize he was
out-smarted and thus was thwarted.

Yeah, it was kind of funny. Him staring forward cussing violently at... I
guess the rear-view mirror.

Quoted message said:

As far as carrying mace. You only really need to have mace if you think
that someone will confront you and this is very unlikely. The chances that
you could get it out and spray them are very small. You're vulnerable on
the bike and by getting out mace you might risk escalation. However there
have been instances where people got out of cars and walked up to cyclists.

I agree. You just wonder when good common sense is enough when you see
something like this, you know.

Quoted message said:

What worries me about these kinds of guys is that if you provoke them then
the next guy that has to confront them on a bike might have a much harder
time with them. Who knows you might have been a victim of such an event
where he had a minor encounter with a biker and the guy flipped him off and
rode away before he could say something.

I agree. And, like I said before, when someone has wronged me in traffic
I'll be the first to admit I've done the 1 finger salute when I didn't
have the time to explain what they did wrong. However, I've been trying to
get better at not doing that, knowing that what you say above is true.

Quoted message said:

But don't let it get to you, man. Come on rbm and tell your buds and we'll
give you hugs and props and then blow it off. Keep riding.

Oh, I won't stop riding. I've been threatened. Called a "[censored]" (I don't
even wear any lycra). Had someone ride my bike wheel and rev the engine to
try to threaten to run me down because I wasn't on the sidewalk. I've seen
it all. And I keep riding. It just gets old sometimes.

Quoted message said:

In fact you helped me today with your post to appreciate how nice (in
comparison) everybody is in my town... ;-)

What town? I live in Bicycle City, supposedly (Portland, Oregon Metro
Area). You wouldn't know it, though.

Preston

David L. Johnson said:

frkrygow said:

Preston Crawford said:

... But at a certain
point when not only are you being threatened by their vehicles, but
they're threatening to wield weapons, what do you do? I'm at a loss.

First, what you did was fine. It worked, and the guy is probably
frustrated in knowing that the law is on your side. He may even learn
from the experience. At this point, let it go. Don't fret about it.
Don't accept the negative energy.

It happens to us all, and I know very well that it is sometimes hard to
let it go. I can list a half-dozen instances that _still_ gall me. But
I will not even relate them, since that only makes it worse.

Same here and same on the it only makes it worse. I have a virtual
catalogue in my head. It's a shame.

Quoted message said:

After several instances within a week at one intersection, I altered my
commute route to avoid it. No problems since. Some roads tend to
generate this [censored]. Am I being cowardly by avoiding the confrontations?
Should we seek out, or seek to avoid, situations that lead to
confrontation? For me, the two routes are more-or-less equivalent. The

I would definitely avoid it. Problem is this is literally the only road
tht goes from my apartment complex to the main arterial. So I don't have a
choice. Heck, I might see this guy tomorrow.

Quoted message said:

BTW, just taking pictures is not enough. All you see is pictures of a
red-faced fool giving you the finger. Hardly a death threat there. You
need full-motion video with sound to get their ass in jail. Until your
phone has that, you flat-out will not win in court, and we all know it.

That's probably true, unfortunately. I wish it were enough. Isn't
threatening assault illegal?

Preston

Quoted message said:

Preston Crawford said:

... But at a certain
point when not only are you being threatened by their vehicles, but
they're threatening to wield weapons, what do you do? I'm at a loss.

First, what you did was fine. It worked, and the guy is probably
frustrated in knowing that the law is on your side. He may even learn
from the experience. At this point, let it go. Don't fret about it.
Don't accept the negative energy.

I'm not good at this, but I'm trying.

Quoted message said:

I keep thinking there must be a way to use psychological jiu-jitsu in
situations like that - something other than "my weapon trumps your
weapon," even if my "weapon" is a cell phone. I'm thinking (vaguely)
of something that confuses them, then makes them see how silly they're
being.

I haven't come up with anything yet. The very fact that someone is a grown
adult and believes...

A) Driving a car makes them superior
B) Me being on a bike means I can't afford a car
C) All bikes belong on sidewalks

....is so foreign and caveman to me that I can't even begin to comprehend
how to counter that kind of ignorance. The funny thing is, if I wanted to
"show this guy up" I could probably save my money for the next 4 months
and buy a BMW or a Hummer or whatever with cash. But I'd rather keep my
bike in good shape, pay off my student loans, and go out to dinner with my
wife. So all of the above assumptions by this kind of driver are
completely false. I own a car, I just choose to ride. Said car is a Ford
Taurus, because my vehicle is a tool, not a mark of superiority. And bikes
most certainly belong on roads.

But I think A, B, and C are part of what goes through the heads of these
kinds of people and that makes me sad. Isn't this the 21st Century?

Quoted message said:

But again: while I daydream about some "perfect" response, I think
what you did is fine. How does that pseudo-latin go? Something like

I wish I had the perfect response, though. But I feel like it's impossible
when you're dealing with someone like this.

Preston

Neil Brooks said:

Preston Crawford <[email hidden]> wrote:

[story of flagrant automotive bullying snipped]

Quoted message said:

Of course, I shout back that I'm going to call the police and he'll go to
jail for assault, I pull my cell phone out and start to dial, he starts
cussing loudly to himself in the car staring forward.

Preston,

I'm sorry you had this experience. Many of us have. If you started
the dialing process on your phone, that (IMHO) is the best and only
thing you should have done.

Cyclists taking on cars is a high risk, low reward proposition. If
you have a camera in that phone of yours, take a pic of him, his car,
and his license plate if you can, then go to the Police station with
all of that.

Here's one received on the ListServ for San Diego County Bicycle
Coalition:

"On Tuesday, 3/22 around 3pm, I was biking along Nobel, past Lebon,
toward Genessee, when a passenger from a passing car leaned halfway
out the window and bashed me over the head with a baseball bat, then
sped away. I did not crash. The license plate started with "3P" and
I think the 3rd character was "W." I could not get the make or model
of the car, but it was a color about pink. I have reported the
incident to the police."

Be careful out there.

Interesting. Wonder if Portland has anything of the sort.

Preston

Ack - sorry this happened to you. I've had similar happen to me too. Just
goes to show that put an amoeba-brain behind the wheel of a car and he/she
remains an amoeba-brain. My husband was deliberately knocked off his bike by
a motorist coming on to the wrong side of the road (for him), aiming at my
husband and hitting him. It was awful. Thankfully my husband had only minor
injuries. But the bottom line is the [censored] who deliberately act thus are
in a minority, and you can't live your life in a "what if it happens again"
state where you become too frightened to get back on the bike and cycle
legally and legitimately - or the thugs have won. Don't let them do this to
you. Give yourself time to get over the shock of what has happened - be
gentle on yourself.

Cheers, helen s

"Preston Crawford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

And the driver was probably driving one of those huge SUV's and was probably
the only person in it!

Ken

Preston Crawford said:

Leo Lichtman said:

"jj" wrote: (clip) In that event the first thing you want to do if you
can't immediately escape and ride off down a side street is get off the
bike. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, keep in mind that if he starts to get out of the car, you may be
able to position yourself to ride off. That's going to leave him looking
pretty stupid. This is one circumstance where I believe everyone will agree
that riding on the sidewalk or against traffic would be justified.

I've replayed this over and over again and I thought of the above
scenario. And the first thought that popped into my head was that I'd head
for his car, pull the keys and call the cops. Don't know why. Maybe I just
haven't gotten over it yet.

Preston

No, no, no...you do -not- want to do something pre-emptive like that. Trust
me. Think about it. Do you really want your life intertwined with this
a-hole? It then becomes a 'he said, she said' incident and you risk further
escalation.

It started as anonymous, keep it that way, de-escalate, calm him down, but
first get the hell out of there, ride off.

Of course if the guy hits you or runs you off the road then there's reason
to get a license number and report it.

You are already a winner by avoiding the confrontation. You ride off and he
can't touch you - you win, baybee. Believe me I understand the desire to
put these guys in their place, but it never works. You absolutely did the
right thing.

(I say this as a big guy who has trained in three martial arts, and can
squat >300lbs for reps and could crush most people like a twig, btw. <g>😉

jj

David L. Johnson said:

jj said:

In that event the first thing you want to do if you can't immediately
escape and ride off down a side street is get off the bike. (Sitting on the
bike makes you a sitting duck for getting punched with one foot clipped
in.)

Put the bike between you and them

This advise works better for dogs than for rednecks. But then, the dogs
are less belligerent, and smarter.

Right, but I was speaking from experience, and only if you are trapped and
can't get out of there...if it escalates from there you are in a great
position off the bike with it between you to defend. Straddling on the bike
holding the handlebars is the worst place to be when people come up to you,
iow.

If you suddenly get stuck like that still on the bike and there's an
imminent confrontation quickly unclip and then you can post both feet on
the ground and raise up the front wheel and ward them off if necessary.

What I'm getting at is it's easy to be taken unawares and people can be up
upon you before you realize it. Also beware of people coming up behind you
while someone in front of you distracts you. 360degree as it were. Again,
speaking from experience.

jj

David L. Johnson said:

frkrygow said:

Preston Crawford said:

... But at a certain
point when not only are you being threatened by their vehicles, but
they're threatening to wield weapons, what do you do? I'm at a loss.

First, what you did was fine. It worked, and the guy is probably
frustrated in knowing that the law is on your side. He may even learn
from the experience. At this point, let it go. Don't fret about it.
Don't accept the negative energy.

It happens to us all, and I know very well that it is sometimes hard to
let it go. I can list a half-dozen instances that _still_ gall me. But
I will not even relate them, since that only makes it worse.

It's a matter of self-talk. Realize this is totally anonymous - these guys
don't know you and if they met you out of the car at a party they'd
probably like you. People get behind the wheel they turn into a-holes. It
happens to you, to me, to saintly little old ladies, to priests, everybody.

Quoted message said:

After several instances within a week at one intersection, I altered my
commute route to avoid it. No problems since. Some roads tend to
generate this [censored]. Am I being cowardly by avoiding the confrontations?

Not at all. This is a hot topic on many of the self-defense board and those
are often populated by guys who are frequently armed, stone dead killers
with several blackbelts and years of fighting experience in the ring. They
-all- say de-escalate, defuse and escape. It's not an easy path and
sometimes we have to go through a bad event to realize this. You escape and
ride away-you win. You avoid-you win. You turn the sitch around and make a
friend- you win big! The alternative is you enter the legal system, you get
sued, you get hurt, this guy escalates, you get shot, yada, yada and yeah,
all the time you are in the right. It makes no difference. You get involved
with this [censored] and you lose, essentially. It's a hard lesson to learn and
it basically involves retraining your psyche with self-talk.

Quoted message said:

Should we seek out, or seek to avoid, situations that lead to
confrontation? For me, the two routes are more-or-less equivalent. The
new route involves a left turn onto an artery without benefit of a light
(avoiding that was the reason to take the road-rage route), but since
traffic is usually backed up at this point, it's not a problem usually.

Perfect solution. Props.

Quoted message said:

BTW, just taking pictures is not enough. All you see is pictures of a
red-faced fool giving you the finger. Hardly a death threat there. You
need full-motion video with sound to get their ass in jail. Until your
phone has that, you flat-out will not win in court, and we all know it.

Not to be didactic but the purpose of the camera/phone is just as an icon.
If possible get a snap of the license number, but in general 99.999% of the
time - escape, blow it off, come to rbm and de-stress if necessary with
your buds.

The cops are less then interested in some guy reporting a road rage
incident involving words and more often than not they end up focussing on
-you-. Heck even if the guy ran you off the road it's yawnable to most
cops. They weren't there they can't prove anything. Even if the cop sees it
happen they're unlikely to intervene if it's just words.

Having said that where there are bad driver report boards, by all means
register these guys and post license numbers. The cops will intervene if
they can establish a history I believe. (I hope).

jj

Preston Crawford said:

That's probably true, unfortunately. I wish it were enough. Isn't
threatening assault illegal?

Preston

Yes, it's a class I misdemeanor, iirc. However it's frequently not
proveable. If you were riding with a bud and he heard this then it would be
actionable and the cops would most likely go and talk to the guy if you
could get a positive ID.

Again, going this route can get your life intertwined with some anonymous
a-hole. If it's a guy you are going to see again day after day it might be
worth the trouble to try and make a friend. Believe me it's possible. I
made "friends" with some guy who had set up a trap on the road to try and
kill me. Yeah he's still an a-hole, but now he waves at me. <g> And, now
it's not a seminal incident in my life but something that I chuckle at
because I outwitted him. All you have to do is go up to him and become an
individual - 'hi, sorry if I upset you - let's talk - be friends'. It's
very disarming. It's all about your mental health, not creating a bad event
to ruminate about. That's why you talk to your buds and come to realize you
won, bro.

jj

Preston Crawford said:

jj said:

Preston, also accept my sympathy and empathy for what happened to you. If
these people knew what a kind and wonderful person you were they would
never think of talking to you like that. We need more great guys like you
in the world.

Well, I'm not sure I deserve that kind of praise, but I appreciate it
nonetheless. Thanks.

Man, I've been to your website and read your story and you seem like one of
those jovial big teddy bears of a guy who has a kind word to everyone.
<bg>

jj

Preston Crawford said:

In the end he drove off, I road off, but I'm really starting to get

tired

Quoted message said:

of this garbage. This happens far too often and I do everything

you're

Quoted message said:

supposed to do when it comes to riding. And yet still it happens. And

it's

Quoted message said:

never "damn you for passing me" or "how dare you take the lane". The

road

Quoted message said:

raging is always because I'm on the road period. Period! Nothing

more.

Quoted message said:

Nothing less. You don't deserve to be on the road, so I'm going to
threaten to kill you. What can you do when faced with this? I'm so

sick of

Quoted message said:

it. I want to carry a camera with me and just photograph the hell out

of

Quoted message said:

these people and take them to court. I wonder if I should carry mace

with

Quoted message said:

me at all times. I don't want to. I'm not a fighter. But at a certain

Quoted message said:

point when not only are you being threatened by their vehicles, but
they're threatening to wield weapons, what do you do? I'm at a loss.

You want some cheese with that whine? Sure, what happened to you was
unjust, but I'm sure if you looked around a little 1 block radius you'd
see instances of injustice (social or cosmic) that dwarf your little
bump. You don't get as indignant about those, do you? Your ego got
tweaked, that's all. Probably by some guy whose ego has been stomped
on. He's just looking to roll the [censored] downhill, and guess who's there
-- you. If you don't want to be vulnerable to this sort of thing, drive
a car, that's what most people do. Don't personalize it, it's not about
you, that's just your ego talking, follow it and you'll just get deeper
and become part of the problem yourself. Let it go grasshopper, and
think about why it's so hard to let go of.

Now if I could only follow my own advice...