Vegan Bodybuilders??

"Will Brink" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spungo said:

"joni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Will Brink piped up:
After joni wrote:
> > "Several well known bodybuilders were vegetarians. The best known
> > vegetarian bodybuilders are Bill Pearl (Mr. America, Mr. USA, and
> > four times Mr. Universe)
>
> He was not a vege when he competed. Try again.

"He won the professional Mr. Universe title in 1971, at the age of 41,
**without the use of steroids and as a vegetarian** and is recognized
as one of the all-time greats of bodybuilding. Bill's diet is lacto-ovo
vegetarian, which means he eats eggs and dairy products.

Oh, so you admit he wasn't a vegetarian then? Good.

During the period he gained most of his muscle and competed, no, he was
not a vege eater. She on the other hand, is an idiot. I have also known
many a vege bodybuilder (something of an ox moron there) who after years
of being unable to add LBM, went back to meat eating only to find gains
of 5-15lbs of LBM in a few months.

My main beef (pun intended) is people saying they are vegetarian but eating
things like fish, eggs, drinking milk. Some people even eat chicken and
claim to be vegetarian.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spungo said:

"Will Brink" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spungo said:

"joni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Will Brink piped up:
> After joni wrote:
>> > "Several well known bodybuilders were vegetarians. The best known
>> > vegetarian bodybuilders are Bill Pearl (Mr. America, Mr. USA, and
>> > four times Mr. Universe)
>>
>> He was not a vege when he competed. Try again.
>
> "He won the professional Mr. Universe title in 1971, at the age of 41,
> **without the use of steroids and as a vegetarian** and is recognized
> as one of the all-time greats of bodybuilding. Bill's diet is lacto-ovo
> vegetarian, which means he eats eggs and dairy products.

Oh, so you admit he wasn't a vegetarian then? Good.

During the period he gained most of his muscle and competed, no, he was
not a vege eater. She on the other hand, is an idiot. I have also known
many a vege bodybuilder (something of an ox moron there) who after years
of being unable to add LBM, went back to meat eating only to find gains
of 5-15lbs of LBM in a few months.

My main beef (pun intended) is people saying they are vegetarian but eating
things like fish, eggs, drinking milk. Some people even eat chicken and
claim to be vegetarian.

I would totally agree. It's very "in" to be a vegetarian these days and
many are smug eating fish, chicken, etc, etc. It's a joke.

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

My friend had this girl friend who wouldn't eat anything that sweats. So
chicken and fish was okay, but beef and pork wouldn't do. Her theory had
something to do with the animal feeling pain. So we found some research
that suggested plants send out s signal very similar to a nervous
reaction to pain when they are damaged. We'd tell her to think of the
pain of the cocoa plant next time she had some chocolates.

Naturally it was a short relationship for my friend.

There ya go Keith.

You can add marriage conseling to your many new skills!!

LOL

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spungo said:

My main beef (pun intended) is people saying they are vegetarian but eating
things like fish, eggs, drinking milk. Some people even eat chicken and
claim to be vegetarian.

I hope you tear up their membership cards when you find out about stuff
like that. Can't have those frauds walking the streets.

--
Stephen Mack

"Nobody's smart enough to be wrong all the time." -Ken Wilber

DZ <[email hidden]> wrote in news:6650@
2294713354.177382484.28372.22156.6764.com:

Quoted message said:

Spungo said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

You don't have a clue.

I've seen lots of people in my life (must be at least a million by
now), and that guy is just about as average as it gets. What are
those, about 15" biceps? Ha!

No comment on that guy, but I've seen a few devoted kettlebellists and
based on that I'm close to the conclusion that kettlebels are SUPPOSED
to keep if not cause muscle atrophy.

It's actually a mistery to me. Some websites say that with kettlebels
you'll put some meat on the bones and then show photos of really
scrawny people with a kettlebell over the head. I'd think folks who'd
go for that look should be so out of shape they wouldn't be able to
lift a kettlebell anyway. Then how do they keep their sales going?!

No the kettlebell aesthetic is wiry but strong. KB contests are all about
high reps and things like KB swings test strength/endurance.

Pavel is very explicit about this in PTP.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

Will Brink <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spungo said:

"Will Brink" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Spungo" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> "joni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > Will Brink piped up:
> > After joni wrote:
> >> > "Several well known bodybuilders were vegetarians. The best
> >> > known vegetarian bodybuilders are Bill Pearl (Mr. America, Mr.
> >> > USA, and four times Mr. Universe)
> >>
> >> He was not a vege when he competed. Try again.
> >
> > "He won the professional Mr. Universe title in 1971, at the age of
> > 41, **without the use of steroids and as a vegetarian** and is
> > recognized as one of the all-time greats of bodybuilding. Bill's
> > diet is lacto-ovo vegetarian, which means he eats eggs and dairy
> > products.
>
> Oh, so you admit he wasn't a vegetarian then? Good.

During the period he gained most of his muscle and competed, no, he
was not a vege eater. She on the other hand, is an idiot. I have also
known many a vege bodybuilder (something of an ox moron there) who
after years of being unable to add LBM, went back to meat eating only
to find gains of 5-15lbs of LBM in a few months.

My main beef (pun intended) is people saying they are vegetarian but
eating things like fish, eggs, drinking milk. Some people even eat
chicken and claim to be vegetarian.

I would totally agree. It's very "in" to be a vegetarian these days and
many are smug eating fish, chicken, etc, etc. It's a joke.

Can't justify the chicken, but including dairy and fish in a "vegetarian"
diet is very traditional--parts of India have been vegetarians in that way
for centuries. It doesn't have to make sense.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

"Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:06:29 -0400,
"[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

"Fraser Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> On 4 Apr 2005 19:15:57 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:
>>
>>>NYC XYZ wrote:
>>>> Hi, All:
>>>
>>>> Just wondering if anyone knows a "buffed" vegan. I doubt there are
>>>any
>>>> pro or even amateur vegan bodybuilders -- and by "vegan" I simply
>>>mean
>>>> no meat, but do allow for diary products (milk, eggs, etc.) -- but
>>>> is
>>>> it at least theoretically possible, or does muscle mass necessarily
>>>> mean animal proteins, at least at that level of competition??
>>>
>>>Your body doesn't care from what source it gets its protein from, only
>>>that all the necessary amino acids are there when it needs them. And
>>>since it's very easy to get plenty of protein/all the aminos from a
>>>vegetarian diet, it's very possible. The limiting factor, a
>>>generalization, is that most vegetarians tend to care about their
>>>health and longevity much more than the heavy steriod-doping lab rats
>>>who [dis]grace the covers of the muscle magazines.
>>>
>>>Patrick
>>
>> Have you considered the possibility that there are other things in
>> meat besides protein that are essential for good health in humans?
>
> You mean like fiber and anti-oxidants?

Iron.

You want iron? Eat whole baby clams.
There's a myth that red meat has the
most iron. Whole baby clams aren't red,
and they have a great deal of iron.
They also have a low calorie density--
under 1.0. They are the only animal
flesh I eat. I think that they border on the
insentient, so I don't have a problem
with thinking I've imposed suffering on
an animal.

George

Well sure, go ahead if that makes you feel better. Are you Catholic?

No, Buddhist.

Quoted message said:

They don't like to consider fish as meat, either. It's still an
animal and feels pain.

The anatomy and physiology of clams has led me
to conclude that they are no more sentient than a
Venus Flytrap.

Quoted message said:

Come to think of it, I had a 'vegan' English
teacher once who was the same.

Same what?

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't eat anything with a face, but
occasionally, his biology would kick in, and he'd give in and eat some
seafood to quell his insatiable hunger for flesh. And then talk
himself out of the guilt, of course.

I would never feel guilt over eating a frigging mollusk.
Your English teacher should have tried clams, which
would gratify both his biology and his wavering morality.

George

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 01:20:09 GMT, Hugh Beyer <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

DZ <[email hidden]> wrote in news:6650@
2294713354.177382484.28372.22156.6764.com:

Quoted message said:

Spungo said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote
> You don't have a clue.

I've seen lots of people in my life (must be at least a million by
now), and that guy is just about as average as it gets. What are
those, about 15" biceps? Ha!

No comment on that guy, but I've seen a few devoted kettlebellists and
based on that I'm close to the conclusion that kettlebels are SUPPOSED
to keep if not cause muscle atrophy.

It's actually a mistery to me. Some websites say that with kettlebels
you'll put some meat on the bones and then show photos of really
scrawny people with a kettlebell over the head. I'd think folks who'd
go for that look should be so out of shape they wouldn't be able to
lift a kettlebell anyway. Then how do they keep their sales going?!

No the kettlebell aesthetic is wiry but strong. KB contests are all about
high reps and things like KB swings test strength/endurance.

Pavel is very explicit about this in PTP.

Hugh

There are wiry and strong and BIG and strong KB people. Spend some
time at the Dragondoor forum. Read the articles there. It's all
about getting stronger, whatever your personal aesthetic may be.

Will Brink said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roy Schestowitz said:

Will Brink said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Roy Schestowitz <[email hidden]> wrote:

> NYC XYZ wrote:
>
> > Hi, All:
> >
> > Just wondering if anyone knows a "buffed" vegan.
>
> Firstly, it should be possible, but it is harder.
>
> > I doubt there are any
> > pro or even amateur vegan bodybuilders
>
> Hold on right there... having seen the rest of your question, I must
> point out that so-called bodybuilders get their size from bloody
> steroids and supplementation, not from meat.

Your point being? I have known several steroid using vege bodybuilders
who finally added meat back to their diet only to see increases in LBM.
Steroids are not magic.

I think the whole point of being a /vegetarian/ steroid lab rat is
ridiculous.

Are you under the impression anyone cares what you think? If so, get
over it.

Hey, you're not being fair here... I suppose that my frustration about
people who cheat just bursted out...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many of these people die before they turn 40, so what are they
worried about? Coronary issues when they are in their 60's? Meat sure has
its benefits, but 300 pound steroid freaks do not get their mass from
just a typical diet (i.e. diet in the form of proper food).

Oh boy, we got us a stupid one here.

Quoted message said:

What I wanted to clarify to the OP is that so-called bodybuilders (since
the term was explicitly mentioned) are not about diet, but often about
drugs and supplements.

They are "about" all the above actually as well as diet, training, and
above all, their genes.

Yes, but without hormones in the equation, none of them would be able to
achieve much. That's what makes the difference between someone who reaches
a plateau and someone who can extend that point of plateau.

Roy

--
Roy S. Schestowitz
http://Schestowitz.com

Proton Soup said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just wondering if anyone knows a "buffed" vegan. I doubt there

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any

Quoted message said:

pro or even amateur vegan bodybuilders -- and by "vegan" I simply

mean

Quoted message said:

no meat, but do allow for diary products (milk, eggs, etc.) -- but

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it at least theoretically possible, or does muscle mass

necessarily

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mean animal proteins, at least at that level of competition??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your body doesn't care from what source it gets its protein from,

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that all the necessary amino acids are there when it needs them.

And

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

since it's very easy to get plenty of protein/all the aminos from a
vegetarian diet, it's very possible. The limiting factor, a
generalization, is that most vegetarians tend to care about their
health and longevity much more than the heavy steriod-doping lab

rats

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who [dis]grace the covers of the muscle magazines.

Quoted message said:

Have you considered the possibility that there are other things in
meat besides protein that are essential for good health in humans?

Proton Soup,

I know there are good things in meat. That's why I eat it. My belief
is that, in the average American diet, meat crowds out too many other
good foods. And body builders in particular, seem to put all their
dietary focus on protein, protein, protein. They're always sure to eat
max portions of it and then supplement much of the rest they're not
getting, because their not eating enough grains, vegetables, and
fruits, by popping vitamin pills. The best diet is balanced and offers
*lots* of variety.

Patrick

Quoted message said:

Proton Soup said:

Quoted message said:

You want iron? Eat whole baby clams.
There's a myth that red meat has the
most iron. Whole baby clams aren't red,
and they have a great deal of iron.
They also have a low calorie density--
under 1.0. They are the only animal
flesh I eat. I think that they border on the
insentient, so I don't have a problem
with thinking I've imposed suffering on
an animal.

Well sure, go ahead if that makes you feel better. Are you Catholic?

No, Buddhist.

Quoted message said:

They don't like to consider fish as meat, either. It's still an
animal and feels pain.

The anatomy and physiology of clams has led me
to conclude that they are no more sentient than a
Venus Flytrap.

So, what organism constitutes the cutoff point for Buddha nature?
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

JMW said:

Quoted message said:

No, Buddhist.

....

Quoted message said:

So, what organism constitutes the cutoff point for Buddha nature?

I'd advise you to answer the question. All mfw posters are required to
submit complete explanations of their religious, spiritual and philosophical
belief systems to John "Mullah" Williams for approval.

Failure to meet this requirement will result in a small yapping dog by the
name of "Lee Michaels" biting your ankles.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

JMW said:

Quoted message said:

Proton Soup said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>You want iron? Eat whole baby clams.
>There's a myth that red meat has the
>most iron. Whole baby clams aren't red,
>and they have a great deal of iron.
>They also have a low calorie density--
>under 1.0. They are the only animal
>flesh I eat. I think that they border on the
>insentient, so I don't have a problem
>with thinking I've imposed suffering on
>an animal.

Well sure, go ahead if that makes you feel better. Are you Catholic?

No, Buddhist.

Quoted message said:

They don't like to consider fish as meat, either. It's still an
animal and feels pain.

The anatomy and physiology of clams has led me
to conclude that they are no more sentient than a
Venus Flytrap.

Will a venus flytrap try to avoid predation?

Quoted message said:

So, what organism constitutes the cutoff point for Buddha nature?

LOL!

-----------
Proton Soup

"And all this peace has been deceiving,
I need some wind to get me sailing"

Quoted message said:

Proton Soup said:

Quoted message said:

> Just wondering if anyone knows a "buffed" vegan. I doubt there

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any
> pro or even amateur vegan bodybuilders -- and by "vegan" I simply
mean
> no meat, but do allow for diary products (milk, eggs, etc.) -- but

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> it at least theoretically possible, or does muscle mass

necessarily

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> mean animal proteins, at least at that level of competition??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your body doesn't care from what source it gets its protein from,

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that all the necessary amino acids are there when it needs them.

And

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

since it's very easy to get plenty of protein/all the aminos from a
vegetarian diet, it's very possible. The limiting factor, a
generalization, is that most vegetarians tend to care about their
health and longevity much more than the heavy steriod-doping lab

rats

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who [dis]grace the covers of the muscle magazines.

Quoted message said:

Have you considered the possibility that there are other things in
meat besides protein that are essential for good health in humans?

Proton Soup,

I know there are good things in meat. That's why I eat it. My belief
is that, in the average American diet, meat crowds out too many other
good foods. And body builders in particular, seem to put all their
dietary focus on protein, protein, protein. They're always sure to eat
max portions of it and then supplement much of the rest they're not
getting, because their not eating enough grains, vegetables, and
fruits, by popping vitamin pills. The best diet is balanced and offers
*lots* of variety.

Patrick

Maybe bodybuilders are like that when they're in a cutting phase, but
I doubt they're avoiding much while bulking. They also tend to eat a
lot of tuna, which isn't exactly a calorically dense food.

The problem with American diets though isn't so much about eating too
much meat, it's things like french fries, soft drinks, donuts, ice
cream, etc. Meat is a bit on the expensive side, generally, but foods
high in fat, sugar, and starch are cheap and plentiful. Take an
average McDonalds combo meal, take out the meat, and see what you've
got left.

-----------
Proton Soup

"And all this peace has been deceiving,
I need some wind to get me sailing"

Donovan Rebbechi said:

JMW said:

Quoted message said:

No, Buddhist.

...

Quoted message said:

So, what organism constitutes the cutoff point for Buddha nature?

I'd advise you to answer the question. All mfw posters are required to
submit complete explanations of their religious, spiritual and philosophical
belief systems to John "Mullah" Williams for approval.

Try not to confuse Buddhism with Islam. They're a wee bit different.

If you knew more about the subject, you might realize what a valid
question that is.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Spungo said:

Quoted message said:

> Just wondering if anyone knows a "buffed" vegan. I doubt there

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any
> pro or even amateur vegan bodybuilders -- and by "vegan" I simply
mean
> no meat, but do allow for diary products (milk, eggs, etc.) -- but

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> it at least theoretically possible, or does muscle mass

necessarily

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> mean animal proteins, at least at that level of competition??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your body doesn't care from what source it gets its protein from,

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that all the necessary amino acids are there when it needs them.

And

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

since it's very easy to get plenty of protein/all the aminos from a
vegetarian diet, it's very possible.

Quoted message said:

Very easy? By consuming lethal levels of Soy?

Spungo,

Very easy, by eating a variety of foods like beans/peas (legunes),
brown rice and other whole grains like Quinoa, nuts/seeds, insects, and
if your vegetarian diet allows it, eggs, milk and/or fish.

What's "lethal level" of soy?

Well, for me it would be any amount. I can't stand the stuff. Eggs, milk and
fish I'm all for, but insects to get your protein???

"[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Fraser Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On 4 Apr 2005 19:15:57 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:
>
>>NYC XYZ wrote:
>>> Hi, All:
>>
>>> Just wondering if anyone knows a "buffed" vegan. I doubt there are
>>any
>>> pro or even amateur vegan bodybuilders -- and by "vegan" I simply
>>mean
>>> no meat, but do allow for diary products (milk, eggs, etc.) -- but is
>>> it at least theoretically possible, or does muscle mass necessarily
>>> mean animal proteins, at least at that level of competition??
>>
>>Your body doesn't care from what source it gets its protein from, only
>>that all the necessary amino acids are there when it needs them. And
>>since it's very easy to get plenty of protein/all the aminos from a
>>vegetarian diet, it's very possible. The limiting factor, a
>>generalization, is that most vegetarians tend to care about their
>>health and longevity much more than the heavy steriod-doping lab rats
>>who [dis]grace the covers of the muscle magazines.
>>
>>Patrick
>
> Have you considered the possibility that there are other things in
> meat besides protein that are essential for good health in humans?

You mean like fiber and anti-oxidants?

Iron.

You want iron? Eat whole baby clams.
There's a myth that red meat has the
most iron. Whole baby clams aren't red,
and they have a great deal of iron.
They also have a low calorie density--
under 1.0. They are the only animal
flesh I eat. I think that they border on the
insentient, so I don't have a problem
with thinking I've imposed suffering on
an animal.

Eating babies is wrong.

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Proton Soup said:

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:06:29 -0400,
"[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

"Fraser Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "[email hidden]"
> <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>>
>> "Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> On 4 Apr 2005 19:15:57 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>
>>>>NYC XYZ wrote:
>>>>> Hi, All:
>>>>
>>>>> Just wondering if anyone knows a "buffed" vegan. I doubt there
>>>>> are
>>>>any
>>>>> pro or even amateur vegan bodybuilders -- and by "vegan" I simply
>>>>mean
>>>>> no meat, but do allow for diary products (milk, eggs, etc.) -- but
>>>>> is
>>>>> it at least theoretically possible, or does muscle mass
>>>>> necessarily
>>>>> mean animal proteins, at least at that level of competition??
>>>>
>>>>Your body doesn't care from what source it gets its protein from,
>>>>only
>>>>that all the necessary amino acids are there when it needs them.
>>>>And
>>>>since it's very easy to get plenty of protein/all the aminos from a
>>>>vegetarian diet, it's very possible. The limiting factor, a
>>>>generalization, is that most vegetarians tend to care about their
>>>>health and longevity much more than the heavy steriod-doping lab
>>>>rats
>>>>who [dis]grace the covers of the muscle magazines.
>>>>
>>>>Patrick
>>>
>>> Have you considered the possibility that there are other things in
>>> meat besides protein that are essential for good health in humans?
>>
>> You mean like fiber and anti-oxidants?
>
> Iron.

You want iron? Eat whole baby clams.
There's a myth that red meat has the
most iron. Whole baby clams aren't red,
and they have a great deal of iron.
They also have a low calorie density--
under 1.0. They are the only animal
flesh I eat. I think that they border on the
insentient, so I don't have a problem
with thinking I've imposed suffering on
an animal.

George

Well sure, go ahead if that makes you feel better. Are you Catholic?
They don't like to consider fish as meat, either. It's still an
animal and feels pain. Come to think of it, I had a 'vegan' English
teacher once who was the same. Wouldn't eat anything with a face, but
occasionally, his biology would kick in, and he'd give in and eat some
seafood to quell his insatiable hunger for flesh. And then talk
himself out of the guilt, of course.

My friend had this girl friend

A girlfriend? What's that? Some piece of exercise equipment? A cardio
machine perhaps?

JMW said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

JMW said:

>No, Buddhist.

...

Quoted message said:

So, what organism constitutes the cutoff point for Buddha nature?

I'd advise you to answer the question. All mfw posters are required to
submit complete explanations of their religious, spiritual and philosophical
belief systems to John "Mullah" Williams for approval.

Try not to confuse Buddhism with Islam. They're a wee bit different.

If you knew more about the subject, you might realize what a valid
question that is.

Just another topic of which Williams is a self-appointed 'expert'!!
;o)

JMW said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

JMW said:

>No, Buddhist.

...

Quoted message said:

So, what organism constitutes the cutoff point for Buddha nature?

I'd advise you to answer the question. All mfw posters are required to
submit complete explanations of their religious, spiritual and philosophical
belief systems to John "Mullah" Williams for approval.

Try not to confuse Buddhism with Islam. They're a wee bit different.

I wasn't confusing them. But you already know that.

Quoted message said:

If you knew more about the subject, you might realize what a valid
question that is.

Of course. You were interested in starting a discussion on the finer points
of Buddhist philosophy so that everyone in mfw can learn more about
Buddhism. (BS detector breaks ... )

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/