Chains, chain guards, oil baths

Quoted message said:

Would like some information on how to prolong chain-life and lower
chain-maintenance via chain-guards and/or enclosed chain baths.

Since chain-care is the most frequent service needed (except for air in
the tires),

I spend more time on flat repair than chain maintenance, and I suspect
that many others do as well.

Quoted message said:

and since its one of the dirtiest jobs to do -- it puts
"civilians" off from taking up the bicycle as a Transport alternative.

I don't think that chain maintenance or chain filth is even a blip on
the long-range radar for the average non-rider. The real issues are
convenience, effort, speed, weather issues, vehicular traffic hazards,
cargo capacity, status, and the distances involved. In a town of
10,000, most anywhere should be reachable in a reasonable time on a
bike. In a city of a million, laid out in the typical spiderweb
manner of a car-as-mass-transit US city, it is not unusual for the
distance to some common destination to exceed 20 miles, with a
non-bike-friendly path between them as the only feasible route.
However, assuming for the sake of argument that all of these large
issues had suddenly been rendered inconsequential, and that many
millions of US citizens suddenly found themselves wanting a bike as an
alernative to the automobile for local running about, then a cleaner
chain drive system might be a selling feature in some cases for the
same reasons that it long has been in other places.

Quoted message said:

-- How difficult would it be to enclose a chain on a standard MTB or
hybrid style commuter bike with derailler?

Very. In fact, worse than that. I've modeled what it would require,
and the resulting monstrosity would not be acceptable.

Quoted message said:

-- How difficult on a bike with hub gear?

A fully enclosed chain system for a single-path chain is easily done
and common in Europe and Japan. No one uses an oil bath. It would be
absurdly expensive and would make flat repair into a much more
difficult task.

Quoted message said:

-- Even without an oil-bath enclosure, it seems that a fully-wrapped
chain (Euro-style) would prolong life (keep dirty away) and reduce
maintenance.

It does. The 20-plus-year-old Puch on my patio is proof of this; it
still has its original chain, and has not been lubricated all that
often.

Quoted message said:

WHY is this not more readily available (in the US
market)?

Because the average US consumer either wants a cheap bike (ergo, no
extra fripperies like a chain guard) or wants one with lots of gears
and a der system (ergo, once again, no chain guard), or wants a
racy-looking bike (ergo no chain guard) or a mountain bike (ditto)
or...anything *but* the typical European bike. The vast majority of
bikes sold in the US do not have fenders, either, for that matter. Or
generator-driven light systems. Or a tire pump. All of these are
common on European bikes.

But to focus on the single isse you were addressing, in places where
bicycles are already regarded as a more serious form of transport and
living space is less capacious than is typical in the US, the need to
store a bike cleanly in one's own apartment or room has made such
chain guards (and chain alternatives) commonplace. Perhaps we will
see them more widely adopted here at some point, but only time will
tell.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since chain-care is the most frequent service needed (except for air in
the tires), and since its one of the dirtiest jobs to do -- it puts
"civilians" off from taking up the bicycle as a Transport alternative.

And yet they will buy cars in which the oil has to be changed every 2,000
miles.

Quoted message said:

-- How difficult would it be to enclose a chain on a standard MTB or
hybrid style commuter bike with derailler?

Pretty difficult, but perhaps you're a mechanical designer with a couple
thousand bucks to spare and if you CAN get one to work then you could market
it. No one would buy it because a $20 chain that you replace once or twice a
year is hardly an inconvenience.

Quoted message said:

-- How difficult on a bike with hub gear?

Not too bad, commuters were made with enclosed drive chains and internal hub
gearing. Trouble is that in Europe most people live near where they work. Or
they live close to public transportation that is very cheap and efficient.
Here, for instance, in the last 40 years I've only worked within 10 miles of
where I worked for a total of about 4 years. The rest of the time it wa
20-30 miles which makes bicycle commuting impractical. Though a friend of
mine did a 30 miles one way commute every day for about 7 years. He was
plenty tough but he didn't have much of a life off the bike.

Quoted message said:

-- Even without an oil-bath enclosure, it seems that a fully-wrapped
chain (Euro-style) would prolong life (keep dirty away) and reduce
maintenance. WHY is this not more readily available (in the US
market)?

In the USA most bicyclists are recreational riders. That means performance
and efficiency is more important than chain wear.

Quoted message said:

maintenance. WHY is this not more readily available (in the US
market)?

Perhaps some sort of permanently sealed and lubricated chain would be a
better solution.

JeB said:

Quoted message said:

maintenance. WHY is this not more readily available (in the US
market)?

Perhaps some sort of permanently sealed and lubricated chain would be a
better solution.

Derailleur chains require more side flex capability due to chainline
misalignment than can be engineered into a sealed-roller chain, and no
current sealed-*roller* chain also seals the sideplates against wear
at the rubbing faces, anyway. Also, current sealed roller chains as
used on some motorcycles and industrial equipment exact a higher
operational drag penalty than an unsealed chain due to the tension of
the seals.

In other words, there are and will be no sealed bike chains for
der-equipped bikes.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Tom Kunich said:

And yet they will buy cars in which the oil has to be changed every 2,000
miles.

I don't think there really are any of those these days. It seems to be
a peculiarly US thing - most cars sold in the UK have oil change
intervals of 9,000 or 10,000 miles (one of ours is more like 16,000
miles although the VW-spec synthetic oil it requires is fiendishly
expensive).

I smell a US conspiracy to sell more oil, which the Rest Of The World
hasn't fallen for :-)

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Would like some information on how
to prolong chain-life

Lately I have been running the chain as dry as possible as oil and dirt
seem to go together. I spray the chain with engine degreaser and spray
with high pressure sprayer. After a few days I repeat the process.
Eventually the chain gets so dry that it seems to want some oil, so I put
a little on it, and the chain is soon dirty again, so I wipe off the
excess oil and or dirt with a rag. Eventually I get around to the
degreaser/high pressure wash again.

The idea is to have the chain as clean as possible with as little oil as
possible. I read today on one site where a fellow uses a 50/50 mix of
synthetic motor oil and mineral spirits. Sounds good to me. Lately I
have been using a 50/50 mix of 30 WT oil and lighter fluid for general
lubrication and so on. I think I will change it to charcoal lighter
fluid and oil, as Ronsonol is a little expensive as an oil thinner.

The theory of the thinned oil is that you apply a small amt and the
volatile part goes away, leaving a thin coat of oil. As always, wiping
off the excess every few rides gets rid of extra oil and leaves less
places for dirt to stick. Oil on a chain really attracts dirt, but
conversely riding the bike can help clean an almost-dry chain.

Would like to try the petroleum-paraffin method sometime but have not
gotten around to it. Paraffin has a lot of lube properties but is drier
than oil and is said to flake off when dirty. But the truth is that
running the chain on minimal oil has made chain maintenance a trivial
problem.

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

since its one of the dirtiest jobs to do

you have too much oil on the chain. Degrease and spray the hell out of
it and get it down to the metal.

Quoted message said:

it seems that a fully-wrapped
chain (Euro-style) would prolong life (keep dirty away)

Look inside and they are full of dirt, muck, junk, crud, and lastly
grit. I would maybe use one if I spent all day on unpaved roads as in
3rd world countries where these enclosures are found, and not even then
unless there was blowing dust. I don't think they serve a real purpose
on paved roads.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would like some information on how to prolong chain-life and lower
chain-maintenance via chain-guards and/or enclosed chain baths.

Since chain-care is the most frequent service needed (except for air in
the tires),

I spend more time on flat repair than chain maintenance, and I suspect
that many others do as well.

I agree with you on that one. I have had three flats in three weeks. And
have only cleaned the chain once. 400 - 500 miles

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and since its one of the dirtiest jobs to do -- it puts
"civilians" off from taking up the bicycle as a Transport alternative.

I don't think that chain maintenance or chain filth is even a blip on
the long-range radar for the average non-rider. The real issues are
convenience, effort, speed, weather issues, vehicular traffic hazards,
cargo capacity, status, and the distances involved. In a town of
10,000, most anywhere should be reachable in a reasonable time on a
bike. In a city of a million, laid out in the typical spiderweb
manner of a car-as-mass-transit US city, it is not unusual for the
distance to some common destination to exceed 20 miles, with a
non-bike-friendly path between them as the only feasible route.
However, assuming for the sake of argument that all of these large
issues had suddenly been rendered inconsequential, and that many
millions of US citizens suddenly found themselves wanting a bike as an
alernative to the automobile for local running about, then a cleaner
chain drive system might be a selling feature in some cases for the
same reasons that it long has been in other places.

I found when I took up riding again that the chain rub off on the right pant
leg was a major drawback, now I have a couple of little velco straps to keep
the pant leg off the chain / chainring.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-- How difficult would it be to enclose a chain on a standard MTB or
hybrid style commuter bike with derailler?

Very. In fact, worse than that. I've modeled what it would require,
and the resulting monstrosity would not be acceptable.

Quoted message said:

-- How difficult on a bike with hub gear?

A fully enclosed chain system for a single-path chain is easily done
and common in Europe and Japan. No one uses an oil bath. It would be
absurdly expensive and would make flat repair into a much more
difficult task.

Quoted message said:

-- Even without an oil-bath enclosure, it seems that a fully-wrapped
chain (Euro-style) would prolong life (keep dirty away) and reduce
maintenance.

It does. The 20-plus-year-old Puch on my patio is proof of this; it
still has its original chain, and has not been lubricated all that
often.

Quoted message said:

WHY is this not more readily available (in the US
market)?

Because the average US consumer either wants a cheap bike (ergo, no
extra fripperies like a chain guard) or wants one with lots of gears
and a der system (ergo, once again, no chain guard), or wants a
racy-looking bike (ergo no chain guard) or a mountain bike (ditto)
or...anything *but* the typical European bike. The vast majority of
bikes sold in the US do not have fenders, either, for that matter. Or
generator-driven light systems. Or a tire pump. All of these are
common on European bikes.

And the average american buyer get his bike from an *x-mart* which only
carries the lowest bracket bikes.

Quoted message said:

But to focus on the single isse you were addressing, in places where
bicycles are already regarded as a more serious form of transport and
living space is less capacious than is typical in the US, the need to
store a bike cleanly in one's own apartment or room has made such
chain guards (and chain alternatives) commonplace. Perhaps we will
see them more widely adopted here at some point, but only time will
tell.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4258ddc4.0@entanet...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

And yet they will buy cars in which the oil has to be changed every

2,000

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

miles.

Actually MANY of the cars sold in the U.S. have oil change intervals that
are considerably higher these days 5,000 miles for severe conditions is not
uncommon.

Quoted message said:

I don't think there really are any of those these days. It seems to be
a peculiarly US thing - most cars sold in the UK have oil change
intervals of 9,000 or 10,000 miles (one of ours is more like 16,000
miles although the VW-spec synthetic oil it requires is fiendishly
expensive).

I smell a US conspiracy to sell more oil, which the Rest Of The World
hasn't fallen for :-)

Revision said:

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

since its one of the dirtiest jobs to do

you have too much oil on the chain. Degrease and spray the hell out of
it and get it down to the metal.

Quoted message said:

it seems that a fully-wrapped
chain (Euro-style) would prolong life (keep dirty away)

Look inside and they are full of dirt, muck, junk, crud, and lastly
grit.

That is not my experience.

I would maybe use one if I spent all day on unpaved roads as in

Quoted message said:

3rd world countries where these enclosures are found, and not even then
unless there was blowing dust. I don't think they serve a real purpose
on paved roads.

Here in the Netherlands a fully-wrapped chain is standard for 80% of our
commuter/city bikes and with reason. Never knew we were a third world
country.

Lou

--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Revision said:

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Would like some information on how
to prolong chain-life

Lately I have been running the chain as dry as possible as oil and

dirt

Quoted message said:

seem to go together. I spray the chain with engine degreaser and

spray

Quoted message said:

with high pressure sprayer. After a few days I repeat the process.
Eventually the chain gets so dry that it seems to want some oil, so I

put

Quoted message said:

a little on it, and the chain is soon dirty again, so I wipe off the
excess oil and or dirt with a rag. Eventually I get around to the
degreaser/high pressure wash again.

The idea is to have the chain as clean as possible with as little oil

as

Quoted message said:

possible.

I just oil mine lightly and ride until it starts squeeking. I think
that accomplishes that goal more effectively and with a lot less
chemical/mechanical infrastructure.

I read today on one site where a fellow uses a 50/50 mix of

Quoted message said:

synthetic motor oil and mineral spirits. Sounds good to me. Lately

I

Quoted message said:

have been using a 50/50 mix of 30 WT oil and lighter fluid for

general

Quoted message said:

lubrication and so on. I think I will change it to charcoal lighter
fluid and oil, as Ronsonol is a little expensive as an oil thinner.

The theory of the thinned oil is that you apply a small amt and the
volatile part goes away, leaving a thin coat of oil. As always,

wiping

Quoted message said:

off the excess every few rides gets rid of extra oil and leaves less
places for dirt to stick. Oil on a chain really attracts dirt, but
conversely riding the bike can help clean an almost-dry chain.

Would like to try the petroleum-paraffin method sometime but have not
gotten around to it. Paraffin has a lot of lube properties but is

drier

Quoted message said:

than oil and is said to flake off when dirty. But the truth is that
running the chain on minimal oil has made chain maintenance a trivial
problem.

I let the lubrication designers do their thing, they have bigger
chemistry sets and I'll bet most of them went to college for it.

Ken said:

I found when I took up riding again that the chain rub off on the right pant
leg was a major drawback, now I have a couple of little velco straps to keep
the pant leg off the chain / chainring.

In a way, this illustrates my point; the average American bike buyer
is not *currently* riding, he's either getting a first bike, or a new
one after a long hiatus. The x-mart-as-source phenomenon is both
symptom and malady; the uninformed buyer, if he or she steps into the
lbs to shop, gets a bad case of sticker shock by comparison to x-mart.
The thought that there's a reason for the price differential might
cross their mind, but instead of trying to find out about it and
seeking to make an informed choice, the more common reaction is to
think "Well, I probably don't need a bike as good as *these*, I'll
just get the one from $BIG_STORE, it's a lot cheaper, and I'm sure
it'll be good enough for what I'm going to do." If as too often
happens, the one critical component on the cheap bike turns out to be
as awful as my experience would predict (specifically, that the seat
is unsittable) the thought becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; the
uncomfortable bike gets ridden very little, for which no particularly
high level of quality is needed.

If x-mart bikes came with decent saddles and pre-purchase guidance
most of the time, I suspect that they'd get ridden a lot more. Most
of them are, in point of fact, mechanically quite capable of giving
years of satisfactory service to the fairly frequent but casual rider,
but their level of comfort causes them to stay parked instead.

Of course, I should also note that for the rider who's had a long
absence, or who is just acquiring their first bike, the real issue
with saddle comfort is getting used to a bike saddle *at all*. The
new rider should be given the firm admonition to ride short distances
at first, adjusting the seat angle and position as seems needed until
it's reasonably comfortable, and then try longer distances. If, once
the rider has begun riding farther, the fit still seems sub-par, then
a different saddle can be swapped on. It is, however, remarkably
difficult to convince a Roadmaster Mt Fury owner that they should buy
a seat that costs 80% of what they paid for their entire bike, and a
$42 saddle is far from being a high-end unit...
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:55:15 +0200, Lou Holtman
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Here in the Netherlands a fully-wrapped chain is standard for 80% of our
commuter/city bikes and with reason. Never knew we were a third world
country.

Lou

Dear Lou,

Elsewhere in this thread, posters are complaining that
WalMart sells cheap bicycles in the U.S. without any
"guidance" as they call it.

In the Netherlands, how much fuss would you say that the
hordes of typical commuter/city bicyclists make about
getting their bikes?

That is, do most bicyclists in the Netherlands spend lots of
time comparing brands, discussing details with bicycle
shops, getting guidance, and getting fitted?

Or do they just walk in, pick a bike that they like, and
ride off without much more thought that WalMart customers?

Carl Fogel

Ken said:

Well I am not really sure I understand how my pant leg thing relates to
people buying bicycles at the local x-mart,

The point is that you didn't recognize it as an issue until *after*
you bought the bike. The same is likely to hold true for a lot of
others. They probably don't think about that problem when
considering a bike; the others I cited would be bigger factors in
their deciding that a bike isn't suitable for their needs.

Quoted message said:

but I do understand about the
pre-purchase guidance. It is non-existent at the x-marts. The person that
works in that department probably has very little or no experience with
bicycles. So as a result the buyer gets no real advise. And the person that
that assembles the bikes probably never even see's the buyer so you can
forget about properly adjusting the bike for the rider. And you said it
about the cost of a comfortable saddle in comparison to the cost of the
whole x-mart bike.

Yup, I agree on all counts. The bikes are in the toy department at
Wal-Mart for one thing (which tells me entirely too much about their
opinion of what they're selling), and the bike sales area isn't in the
same part of the store as the bike assembly area...which is outside,
in a corner of the garden shop in most cases. That's if they even
*have* a bike assembly area; many of the Wal-Mart stores seem to get
huge shipments of bikes that are assembled and hung from the rafters
all at once, and then pulled down over the course of the year as units
get sold from the display rack.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:55:15 +0200, Lou Holtman
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Here in the Netherlands a fully-wrapped chain is standard for 80% of our
commuter/city bikes and with reason. Never knew we were a third world
country.

Lou

Dear Lou,

Elsewhere in this thread, posters are complaining that
WalMart sells cheap bicycles in the U.S. without any
"guidance" as they call it.

In the Netherlands, how much fuss would you say that the
hordes of typical commuter/city bicyclists make about
getting their bikes?

That is, do most bicyclists in the Netherlands spend lots of
time comparing brands, discussing details with bicycle
shops, getting guidance, and getting fitted?

I don't know if you ever visited the Netherlands. Then you would know
that we have a lot of bicycles. Every citizen has at least one bicycle
and lot of people commute. So we have a lot of bikeshops who deliver
good advice, a wide range of good quality bikes and good service. Before
spending about 700 up to 1200 euro a lot of people do spend quite a lot
of time comparing brands, discussing details with the bikeshop. For most
people buying an new bike is a happy event. Fitting is the weak part
with commuter/citybikes. Mostly they only determine the correct
frameheight and the customer figures out the rest on a trial and error
basis.

Quoted message said:

Or do they just walk in, pick a bike that they like, and
ride off without much more thought that WalMart customers?

We have those too and we have also department stores selling low end
bikes in the 150-200 euro range.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Revision said:

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

since its one of the dirtiest jobs to do

you have too much oil on the chain. Degrease and spray the hell out of
it and get it down to the metal.

Quoted message said:

it seems that a fully-wrapped
chain (Euro-style) would prolong life (keep dirty away)

Look inside and they are full of dirt, muck, junk, crud, and lastly
grit.

Mine isn't.

Quoted message said:

I would maybe use one if I spent all day on unpaved roads as in
3rd world countries where these enclosures are found, and not even then
unless there was blowing dust. I don't think they serve a real purpose
on paved roads.

They keep the chain quite clean and apparently extend its life quite a
lot. They also keep pant legs and furnioture from getting marked by a
greasy chain, while still allowing that chain to be properly
lubricated.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Lou Holtman said:

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:55:15 +0200, Lou Holtman
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Here in the Netherlands a fully-wrapped chain is standard for 80% of our
commuter/city bikes and with reason. Never knew we were a third world
country.

Lou

Dear Lou,

Elsewhere in this thread, posters are complaining that
WalMart sells cheap bicycles in the U.S. without any
"guidance" as they call it.

In the Netherlands, how much fuss would you say that the
hordes of typical commuter/city bicyclists make about
getting their bikes?

That is, do most bicyclists in the Netherlands spend lots of
time comparing brands, discussing details with bicycle
shops, getting guidance, and getting fitted?

I don't know if you ever visited the Netherlands. Then you would know
that we have a lot of bicycles. Every citizen has at least one bicycle
and lot of people commute. So we have a lot of bikeshops who deliver
good advice, a wide range of good quality bikes and good service. Before
spending about 700 up to 1200 euro a lot of people do spend quite a lot
of time comparing brands, discussing details with the bikeshop. For most
people buying an new bike is a happy event. Fitting is the weak part
with commuter/citybikes. Mostly they only determine the correct
frameheight and the customer figures out the rest on a trial and error
basis.

Quoted message said:

Or do they just walk in, pick a bike that they like, and
ride off without much more thought that WalMart customers?

We have those too and we have also department stores selling low end
bikes in the 150-200 euro range.

Lou

Dear Lou,

Yes, pictures posted here have shown that bikes are
impressively more popular in the Netherlands than in the
U.S.:

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=carl+penguin&hl=en&lr=&group=rec.bicycles.tech&scoring=d&selm=8bbde8fc.0312151625.18fde916%40posting.google.com&rnum=1

The picture that Derk linked is no longer up, but it showed
what looked like a bicycle version of a penguin rookery.

Would you hazard a guess as to what percentage of bikes in a
triple-decker Netherlands bike parking lot are the low end
bikes that you mention?

That is, I'm wondering if most people are commuting around
the cities on 700-1200 euro bikes bought in the local bike
shops, or if they make do with the cheaper, more generic
bikes in the 150-200 range?

If you find yourself in one of those monster bike parking
lots, you might take a few moments and make a rough tally as
you walk past a hundred bikes or so.

(At the Pueblo library bicycle rack, one was a WalMart
child's single-speed BMX-shaped thing, while the other was
an ancient 5-speed touring bike of some now-extinct breed. A
spring snowstorm left it unclear whether both had been
abandoned days ago.)

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

-- How difficult would it be to enclose a chain on a standard MTB or
hybrid style commuter bike with derailler?

Very. In fact, worse than that. I've modeled what it would require,
and the resulting monstrosity would not be acceptable.

I understand that "this monstrosity" (an oil bath) would of necessity
be large in three dimensions. But, something flexible, like latex, yet
centered/ supported on a polycarb or metal frame should be able to
contain/repell the clean-chain enviornment. If just an enclosure,
without inside fluid, then a disconnect in the housing should allow for
relatively easy access for tube or tire swap. It would also add weight
to the machine -- something the typical racing cyclist is loathe to do,
prefering their immaculate 19# exotic animal to something more closely
resembling a piece of transport equipment.

Many of the Euro-style "roadsters" weigh in at 35-45#, from what i
understand. Yet this is only a minor inconvenience (with adequate
gearing) to the still-dirty velcro'd trouserleg, the once a month chain
clean/re-oil chore (my flats seem to come in swarms; months at a time
flat-free, followed by flats, and flats-upon-patchs, etc), and the
chain-replacement chore (1500-2500 mi) for mere city street commuting..

But then, I load up my bikes with racks, fenders, lights, horns,
water-bottle cages, baskets, radios, computers, locks and whatever
stikes my fancy. To me, the (in)convenience of a trouble-free chain
would be worth adding a 'simple' monstrosity.
P.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken said:

Well I am not really sure I understand how my pant leg thing relates to
people buying bicycles at the local x-mart,

The point is that you didn't recognize it as an issue until *after*
you bought the bike. The same is likely to hold true for a lot of
others. They probably don't think about that problem when
considering a bike; the others I cited would be bigger factors in
their deciding that a bike isn't suitable for their needs.

Oh okay I get what your saying now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I do understand about the
pre-purchase guidance. It is non-existent at the x-marts. The person that
works in that department probably has very little or no experience with
bicycles. So as a result the buyer gets no real advise. And the person

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that assembles the bikes probably never even see's the buyer so you can
forget about properly adjusting the bike for the rider. And you said it
about the cost of a comfortable saddle in comparison to the cost of the
whole x-mart bike.

Yup, I agree on all counts. The bikes are in the toy department at
Wal-Mart for one thing (which tells me entirely too much about their
opinion of what they're selling), and the bike sales area isn't in the
same part of the store as the bike assembly area...which is outside,
in a corner of the garden shop in most cases. That's if they even
*have* a bike assembly area; many of the Wal-Mart stores seem to get
huge shipments of bikes that are assembled and hung from the rafters
all at once, and then pulled down over the course of the year as units
get sold from the display rack.

Well I don't know how they do it now, but in the *old* x-mart days they used
to just have them in crates, and when a buyer purchased one, they put it
together, and you had to make a return trip to pick it up.

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