Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Cycling shoe setup

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Cycling Equipment
Published
7 April 2005
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14 April 2005
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jstc
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  1. Carl Fogel said:

    Cleats versus bare (nice phrase) is what interests me.

    I think that the straps fell out of favor as soon the cleats
    appeared (but I'd be happy to hear why--sometimes the
    explanations for vanished equipment shed light on what's
    new).

    Bare feet would probably almost always hurt a lot more than shod feet
    (any "shod",including even those SPD sandals). Especially, you know, on
    those pedals with "teeth" meant to grip shoes? Ever tried that? Ow!
    Really hurts, and right away, too (thank you, Carl).

    Clips/straps v. clip/strapless? To keep a clip/strap shoe from pulling
    out, the strap has to be at least snug, and pretty tight if the cleat
    is worn or has a shallow engagement slot in the first place. Not
    comfortable for many riders. The clipless style cleat will stay
    attached to the pedal (given working parts not worn excessively) even
    with the shoe laced/velcroed/ratcheted "loose". Much, much more
    comfortable than the "old way" IME.

    The big advantage of cycling shoes (v. "street"😉 for me is that the
    bike shoe soles are usually pretty stiff. The old feet not being what
    they used to be, bending them under load (tested while moving the
    household goods to a new residence, for instance) produces pain and
    soreness, especially where I had a bone spur removed at the base of a
    big toe (my million-dollar wound). I can't begin to tolerate tight toe
    straps anymore but I can ride for hours using Sidi Genius shoes, which,
    although regarded as "soft" by some, do have very limited sole flex
    compared to running shoes, for instance. FWIW, I keep the two lower
    velcro straps loose, and use the ratcheting ankle strap to contol the
    location of the foot-- so no banging the big toe against the inside end
    of the shoe, or binding the foot around the instep or toes to keep the
    foot in the shoe. "Works for me"; if it didn't, I couldn't ride, even
    on platforms. Well, I do occasionally take my son out, me on mom's
    comfort bike (platform pedals, no clips/straps)with him riding the
    attached trailer bike, but the effort involved is nothing like the
    usual group or solo ride on a road bike, either for duration or force,
    and I take care with my foot motion or pay the price. "Doesn't work for
    me", IOW, at least not very well.

    Pedal release? After the usual rookie tipover or two, including an
    embarrassing multibike pileup with other wheel-overlapped rookies at a
    stoplight (rookies), I learned to pattern a reponse by practicing the
    motion that got my foot out the quickest, this with both clip/strap and
    later, clipless types (good return on that over the years, btw). With
    Look or Campy clipless cleat systems, I've found the simple twisting
    motion required for release (similar if not quite the same with those
    two types) to be a little more straightforward (quicker, perhaps) than
    the "roll out of the cleat slot, snap the foot backwards" motion
    required from clip/strap types-- esp. the old Sidi white cleat blocks,
    which could be pretty sticky when new and were deeper than most other
    cleats. And so far, even while running worn clipless cleats, I've never
    pulled a foot out-- of course, the strap was something of a backup for
    that occurrence with the clip/strap style pedal/shoe system. And yes,
    early in the days of clipless, while making a U-turn in a racing pack,
    the two guys ahead of me managed to release their outside foot from
    clipless pedals when they stood to jam out of the corner, and right at
    the same time, too. Looked like the Rockettes (little exaggeration) but
    can't say I enjoyed the show much from behind. Funnier later, of
    course. --TP

  2. Quoted message said:


    Cleats versus bare (nice phrase) is what interests me.

    I think that the straps fell out of favor as soon the cleats
    appeared (but I'd be happy to hear why--sometimes the
    explanations for vanished equipment shed light on what's
    new).

    I think the interesting question is why clips & straps were used. After
    all, "clipless" is just an improvement over that old system. I started
    mountain biking with straps, which is a pretty bad idea. You often need
    assistance keeping your feet on the pedals when bouncing over roots,
    rocks and logs, but straps are dicey in a fall.

    I never used clips and straps in my early street cycling days, although
    my more committed friends did. I don't care for the feeling of bare
    pedals now, though. It feels less safe. Mountain bikers go through a
    similar conversion. Most will unclip in difficult sections when they
    first start riding with clipless, but after a while realize that they
    have much better control, hence safety, clipped in.

  3. On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:12:07 -0400, "Arthur Harris"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    My only pedal related fall came when I was using sneakers with clips/straps.
    On a steep climb, I cinched the straps real tight, and when two dogs charged
    at me I forgot about the straps . . .

    Dear Art,

    I'm sorry, but I had to stop reading your post at that point
    because I began laughing uncontrollably.

    I had a vision of a rider forgetting that his feet were
    attached to the pedals and trying to kick the dogs and
    executing a violent bunnyhop or even somersault.

    I did read the rest and understand that this wasn't what
    happened to you:

    Quoted message said:

    . . . and stopped, only to fall slowly to the
    ground while the dogs looked on in amusement.

    But I'm still laughing with the dogs, not about pedals in
    particular, but because that general kind of forgetful
    fiasco is so embarrassingly familiar:

    "Er, that keyboard isn't connected to this computer."

    "Maybe you'd have better luck if you took the safety off?"

    "It's harder to drop the key into a modern gas tank."

    "That part will last longer right-side up."

    Thanks for a happy morning,

    Carl Fogel

  4. Fred Barney said:


    In my opinion, it is mostly fashion and a belief by the inexperienced
    that they need to have them. Then let's not ignore the fact that bike
    dealers make extra lucrative sales by selling shoes and pedals, instead
    of pedals alone. I know that some of them will hate me for saying that,
    but I think we should talk about the elephant that is sitting in the
    living room. Same with helmets. Ever meet a bike dealer that wasn't
    pushing helmets as the only way for little children to avoid a grisly
    death? I haven't. Shields up, Captain!

    Fashion may get people to try clipless pedals, but the benefits keep
    us using them.

    Life is Good!
    Jeff

  5. Jeff Starr said:
    Fred Barney said:

    In my opinion, it is mostly fashion and a belief by the inexperienced
    that they need to have them. Then let's not ignore the fact that bike
    dealers make extra lucrative sales by selling shoes and pedals, instead
    of pedals alone. I know that some of them will hate me for saying that,
    but I think we should talk about the elephant that is sitting in the
    living room. Same with helmets. Ever meet a bike dealer that wasn't
    pushing helmets as the only way for little children to avoid a grisly
    death? I haven't. Shields up, Captain!

    Fashion may get people to try clipless pedals, but the benefits keep
    us using them.

    Life is Good!
    Jeff

    I agree. I just acquired a new Bianchi road bike. This was my first
    experience with clipless pedals. I love them. I now want to convert my
    Gary Fisher MTB to clipless. Any good suggestions.

    And just why do they call the pedals you clip into "clipless"?

    Just wondering.

  6. Steve Caddel said:

    And just why do they call the pedals you clip into "clipless"?

    Because they don't require toe clips.

    Art Harris

  7. Arthur Harris said:
    Steve Caddel said:

    And just why do they call the pedals you clip into "clipless"?

    Because they don't require toe clips.

    Ahh, but they are themselves clips, what they lack are straps.

    Carl should note that the concept of binding pedal to shoe is so universal among
    serious cyclists that the name "clipless" could actually be understood to mean
    what it does rather than refer to some plain pedal.

    Ron

  8. RonSonic said:
    Steve Caddel said:
    Jeff Starr said:

    On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:28:33 -0500, Fred Barney
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >In my opinion, it is mostly fashion and a belief by the inexperienced
    >that they need to have them. Then let's not ignore the fact that bike
    >dealers make extra lucrative sales by selling shoes and pedals, instead
    >of pedals alone. I know that some of them will hate me for saying that,
    >but I think we should talk about the elephant that is sitting in the
    >living room. Same with helmets. Ever meet a bike dealer that wasn't
    >pushing helmets as the only way for little children to avoid a grisly
    >death? I haven't. Shields up, Captain!

    Fashion may get people to try clipless pedals, but the benefits keep
    us using them.

    Life is Good!
    Jeff

    I agree. I just acquired a new Bianchi road bike. This was my first
    experience with clipless pedals. I love them. I now want to convert my
    Gary Fisher MTB to clipless. Any good suggestions.

    I bought up a couple pairs of Shimano M525 from Nashbar for like $30 and have
    been extremely gruntled. The Shimanos are on sale often enough and cheap enough
    I wouldn't mess with the copy brands.

    What GF have you got?

    Ron

    Thanks for the input. I assume by gruntled you mean happy. I will look
    for them. I have a Gary Fisher Marlin, which I love. I got it in 2000.
    But since I'm riding in the MS 150 here in Colorado, I felt compelled
    to get a road bike. I got a 2003 Bianchi Giro that had been in a LBS
    for a while. Now I don't have time enough to ride both bikes. What a
    shame.

    --
    Steve "Fat Boy Biker" Caddel

    To use my email, please remove the SPAM.OFF

    "Life is like riding a bicycle on a windy day.
    No matter which direction you turn
    the wind is always in your face."

  9. Steve Caddel said:
    RonSonic said:
    Steve Caddel said:

    Jeff Starr wrote:

    >On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:28:33 -0500, Fred Barney
    ><[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >>In my opinion, it is mostly fashion and a belief by the inexperienced
    >>that they need to have them. Then let's not ignore the fact that bike
    >>dealers make extra lucrative sales by selling shoes and pedals, instead
    >>of pedals alone. I know that some of them will hate me for saying that,
    >>but I think we should talk about the elephant that is sitting in the
    >>living room. Same with helmets. Ever meet a bike dealer that wasn't
    >>pushing helmets as the only way for little children to avoid a grisly
    >>death? I haven't. Shields up, Captain!
    >
    >
    >Fashion may get people to try clipless pedals, but the benefits keep
    >us using them.
    >
    >
    >Life is Good!
    >Jeff

    I agree. I just acquired a new Bianchi road bike. This was my first
    experience with clipless pedals. I love them. I now want to convert my
    Gary Fisher MTB to clipless. Any good suggestions.

    I bought up a couple pairs of Shimano M525 from Nashbar for like $30 and have
    been extremely gruntled. The Shimanos are on sale often enough and cheap enough
    I wouldn't mess with the copy brands.

    What GF have you got?

    Ron

    Thanks for the input. I assume by gruntled you mean happy. I will look
    for them. I have a Gary Fisher Marlin, which I love. I got it in 2000.
    But since I'm riding in the MS 150 here in Colorado, I felt compelled
    to get a road bike. I got a 2003 Bianchi Giro that had been in a LBS
    for a while. Now I don't have time enough to ride both bikes. What a
    shame.

    Yea, I sometimes insist on using words that don't otherwise exist. I don't know
    if the 525s are still available, but I'd be comfortable with any of the Shimano
    SPDs.

    The Fishers are such very cool bikes. Really like 'em. Maybe a little too much
    even.

    Ron

  10. Fred Barney said:

    Jeff Starr says...

    Quoted message said:

    Fashion may get people to try clipless pedals, but the benefits keep
    us using them.

    Life is Good!
    Jeff

    I use clipless, but I like to keep it real and point out their serious
    shortcomings. And there is a vast population of casual riders who just
    don't need them and would have more fun if they never bothered with
    them. Yesterday was yet another clipless headache for me. I'm out on a
    country road six miles from home and I find that it has become almost
    impossible to unclip my right foot. Do I pull over, sit and stand in
    the dirt and gravel with one shoe off while I fish for the right allen
    wrench in my pack, or just suffer with it until I get home and leave my
    right foot glued to the pedal? It's not all wine and roses with
    clipless. I use them mainly because if I use them at all, I feel I
    should use them all the time, so that I always know that I have to
    unclip.

    Gee Fred, you can't blame the cleat bolts for loosening. I had a cleat
    bolt come loose ... once. Since then, I have never had a problem, in 7
    or 8 years. Lube the bolts and tighten adequately. What most people
    don't realize is that the cleat (SPD cleats, anyway) has serrations and
    such and it will "bed in" to the sole of the shoe. That's why you often
    hear the admonishment to retighten your cleats after the first ride or
    two. Not necessary if you just do it right the first time.

    Robin Hubert

  11. RonSonic said:

    I bought up a couple pairs of Shimano M525 from Nashbar for like $30


    and have

    Quoted message said:

    been extremely gruntled. The Shimanos are on sale often enough and


    cheap enough

    Quoted message said:

    I wouldn't mess with the copy brands.

    It should be pointed out that these are pretty ancient pedals that
    Nashbar found a stash of somewhere. They're not bad, but pretty heavy &
    clunky. There are better pedals around, occasionally better deals, too.

  12. Fred Barney said:

    I use clipless, but I like to keep it real and point out their


    serious

    Quoted message said:

    shortcomings. And there is a vast population of casual riders who


    just

    Quoted message said:

    don't need them and would have more fun if they never bothered with
    them. Yesterday was yet another clipless headache for me.

    Perhaps you should take your own advice, or perhaps you should let the
    LBS do the installation work.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm out on a
    country road six miles from home and I find that it has become almost

    Quoted message said:

    impossible to unclip my right foot. Do I pull over, sit and stand in

    Quoted message said:

    the dirt and gravel with one shoe off while I fish for the right


    allen

    Quoted message said:

    wrench in my pack, or just suffer with it until I get home and leave


    my

    Quoted message said:

    right foot glued to the pedal?

    "Suffer" for 6 whole miles? What's next for you, the Iditerod?

  13. Peter Cole said:
    RonSonic said:

    I bought up a couple pairs of Shimano M525 from Nashbar for like $30


    and have

    Quoted message said:

    been extremely gruntled. The Shimanos are on sale often enough and


    cheap enough

    Quoted message said:

    I wouldn't mess with the copy brands.

    It should be pointed out that these are pretty ancient pedals that
    Nashbar found a stash of somewhere. They're not bad, but pretty heavy &
    clunky. There are better pedals around, occasionally better deals, too.

    Very true.

    That's why I'm so comfortable recommending anything Shimano wants to sell as an
    SPD. As good as the old primitive, cheap ones are...

    Ron

  14. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    This leaves comfort. A well-fitted clipless system might be
    more comfortable, but I suspect that most people who believe
    this didn't actually ride the same bicycles the same
    distances without clipless pedals before switching to
    clipless and finding impressive relief. And judging by posts
    here, the chances seem fairly good that they will fiddle
    around a good deal before they find a "correct" adjustment
    of their clipless pedals that doesn't hurt.

    I hope that yours feel fine--judging by your FAQ, you like
    'em and that's fine with me. I'm just wondering how much is
    fashion and how much is technical.

    _ Well, I've ridden the same bike in 1977 and 2004 for
    roughly the same distances and I think of all the changes
    in the last 30 years, clipless pedals with a reasonable
    amount of float are IHMO by far the thing where there has been
    actual real technical improvement that increases comfort
    for the average rider, not just fashionable imitations of
    racers. That and Hyperglide cogs are the two things I would
    recommend to everyone coming back to the sport.

    _ Now in 1977, I rode with campy pedals, adias shoes with
    nail on cleats, leather straps and metal clips. Intersections
    were a pain since I could never master a track stand on a
    bike with a freewheel. The straps would require constant
    fiddling on really long rides to avoid constricting the
    feet and walking with those cleats was both uncomfortable
    and expensive in cleats.

    _ So if you think constrained feet improves your riding, there is
    no debate all between clipless and clips and straps. Getting
    nail-on cleats in the right position was far more work than with
    today's simple cleats and since there was far less tolerance than
    even the "no float" cleats of today, much more potentially
    ruinous to your knees.

    _ I don't know of anybody that has actually tried clipless
    pedals long enough to master the learning curve that would
    go back for any other reason than you need special shoes.
    Either we're all dupes of the vast marketing conspiracy,
    or they make riding faster, easier and more comfortable.

    _ Booker C. Bense

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  15. Fred Barney said:

    I use them mainly because if I use them at all, I feel I
    should use them all the time, so that I always know that I have to
    unclip.

    I use dual-sided pedals with SPD one side, platforms the other, and
    shoes with recessed cleats, so I can choose to ride clipped-in or not
    according to whim.

    Most of the time I prefer to be clipped-in - I don't know why, it just
    /feels/ better - except in very heavy stop-start traffic.

    d.

  16. Booker C. Bense said:

    _ So if you think constrained feet improves your riding, there is
    no debate all between clipless and clips and straps. Getting
    nail-on cleats in the right position was far more work than with
    today's simple cleats and since there was far less tolerance than
    even the "no float" cleats of today, much more potentially
    ruinous to your knees.

    The float thing is important - I always hated toestraps because they
    felt far too constricted, and it put me off going to clipless for a long
    time because I assumed the same applied.

    Clipless pedals with float took a while to get used to (it felt like ice
    skating at first) but the advantages were so immediately apparent that I
    wasn't put off, and now there is no way I would ever go back to platforms.

    d.

  17. Quoted message said:

    I think that the straps fell out of favor as soon the cleats
    appeared (but I'd be happy to hear why--sometimes the
    explanations for vanished equipment shed light on what's
    new).

    AFAIK, straps are still popular among track cyclists (where a tight
    binding that allows no foot movement may be an advantage). Among road
    cyclists, a degree of movement is useful, so cleated shoes that allow
    some "float" are a great improvement over straps.

    d.

  18. Quoted message said:

    First, I notice lots of unhappy riders complaining of pain
    just riding around, which they blame on their clipless
    pedals,

    With an uncleated shoe, your foot can find its "natural" position
    without restriction. With a cleated shoe, if the cleat does not
    correspond to your foot's "natural" position on the pedal then it will
    soon become very uncomfortable, and possibly seriously damaging to the
    knees.

    So, perhaps it's not the clipless pedals per se that are at fault but
    the incorrect set-up of the shoe. Not an insurmountable problem.

    Quoted message said:

    and occasional posts that mention broken legs and
    ankles that they attribute to clipless pedals failing to
    disengage in crashes.

    Hmmm. It's possible, I suppose, if the pedal retention mechanism is set
    too tight. Again, not an insurmountable problem. I've fallen off a few
    times and my feet always become detached during the fall.

    I've also had a couple of instances of falls being caused by being
    unable to detach, but I put those down to momentary panic causing me to
    forget to push down rather than pull up while twisting the foot. It
    comes with practice.

    Fortunately, I have never suffered any broken bones from falling off my
    bike and it's a great shame that anyone does, but when people do suffer
    breaks it is usually down to a combination of circumstances and can't
    realistically be attributed to a single cause, such as clipless pedals
    (otherwise /everyone/ who uses clipless pedals would break bones /every
    time/ they fell off).

    Quoted message said:

    Since almost all posters here use clipless pedals, it's hard
    to guess how many of them would be complaining about their
    feet slipping off without clipless pedals,

    Purely anecdotal, I know, but it used to happen to me a fair bit on
    bumpy roads.

    Quoted message said:

    Second, concerning efficiency, did you mean the bottom or
    the top of the stroke? And do you know of any link to data
    or testing that shows the efficiency?

    I can't give you any technical data, but here's how I understand it,
    based on how it "feels" to me...

    With your foot attached to the pedal, any foot movement is going to
    result in pedal movement. So, if you move your foot in a smooth circle,
    the pedal will go with it, and you will be transmitting power for the
    full 360 degrees. Not only that, but both feet are working all the time,
    so the workload is shared.

    With your foot unattached, you can only move the pedal by pushing down
    on it, which gives you at best something like 120 degrees of power
    transmission, and only one foot is working at a time, so it has to do
    more work compared to the clipless foot.

    At the bottom of the stroke, when it reaches the point where it starts
    to turn up again, there is no reason for your unattached foot to be on
    the pedal except that both foot and pedal are heading back in the same
    direction for the start of the next stroke. Effectively, the unattached
    foot loses meaningful contact with the pedal at the bottom of the
    stroke, while the clipless foot continues to work all the way round.

    I don't suppose any of that will help convince you at all but that's the
    best I can offer.

    d.

  19. davek said:
    Quoted message said:

    I think that the straps fell out of favor as soon the cleats
    appeared (but I'd be happy to hear why--sometimes the
    explanations for vanished equipment shed light on what's
    new).



    My theory is that it's because they're so much more comfortable. We
    didn't realize how uncomfortable the straps were until they went away.

    Quoted message said:


    AFAIK, straps are still popular among track cyclists (where a tight
    binding that allows no foot movement may be an advantage). Among road
    cyclists, a degree of movement is useful, so cleated shoes that allow
    some "float" are a great improvement over straps.

    Track events are generally quite short, so comfort is rarely an issue in
    any aspect of track racing.

    Sheldon "SPDs" Brown
    +---------------------------------+
    | Is ambivalence a bad thing? |
    | Well, yes and no. |
    | -- Garrison Keillor |
    +---------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

  20. Quoted message said:

    Only under
    slow rotation conditions, such as during a hill climb, will
    the rider tend to pull up on the pedal as well as push down
    during the 'power' part of the stroke."

    On the other hand, if you are "spinning" at optimum cadence in optimum
    gear, there is no sensation of pushing or pulling at any point in the
    stroke - you are simply turning your foot in a circular movement and
    taking the pedal with it.

    I find this "optimum" situation usually occurs on the flat (preferably
    with a tailwind) while pedalling at a high-ish cadence (100rpm).

    Perhaps the physics would prove me wrong, but that's how it feels.

    d.

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