ZAP - Mektronic retrospective

Quoted message said:

As I Googled around I stumbled onto this item:

http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

Now that the dust has settled, it's interesting to see where Mavic has
spent research time. I wonder, what's next.

[email hidden]

what? like the research time you invested in learning about metal
fatigue? and publishing results? your residence is looking damned
vitreous to me jobst.

Tom Kunich said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I Googled around I stumbled onto this item:

http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

Now that the dust has settled, it's interesting to see where Mavic has
spent research time. I wonder, what's next.

[email hidden]

I sort of wish I could understand what you're getting at.

The Mektronic wasn't a good design.

In my opinion an electronic shifting system is totally unnecessary.

(...)

BTW Campy's electronic group was on test during the Paris-Roubaix:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak
and
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2005/news/04-05

Francesco

Ryan Cousineau said:

The real $64 question is when Campagnolo's phantasmal electronic
shifting will appear on the market. Last seen in competition-testing in
2003:

It was also used by at least the Phonak team in Paris-Roubaix two days
ago. I don't think it can be much more than two years before it hits the
market. Of course it won't work any better and costs ridiculously much,
but then again that doesn't seem to make any difference these days.

-as

jim beam said:

what? like the research time you invested in learning about metal
fatigue? and publishing results? your residence is looking damned
vitreous to me jobst.

Look, taking him up on techincal points is fine, but must you stalk him
on every post?
He may not come off as the most savory of folks, but with your constant
Jobst-bashing, you just come off as pathetic.

Quoted message said:

It was also used by at least the Phonak team in Paris-Roubaix two

days

Quoted message said:

ago. I don't think it can be much more than two years before it hits

the

Quoted message said:

market. Of course it won't work any better and costs ridiculously

much,

Quoted message said:

but then again that doesn't seem to make any difference these days.

Only advantange i see is for pro-teams when switching handlebars etc.
With electronic [censored] they only have to reconnect the electric
cables
instead of using a new set of inner cables and re-adjust the shifting.
They
could put some connectors near the headtube and deraillieurs and put
all
the cables in the frame.

"Antti Salonen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

The real $64 question is when Campagnolo's phantasmal electronic
shifting will appear on the market. Last seen in

competition-testing in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2003:

It was also used by at least the Phonak team in Paris-Roubaix two

days

Quoted message said:

ago. I don't think it can be much more than two years before it hits

the

Quoted message said:

market. Of course it won't work any better and costs ridiculously

much,

Quoted message said:

but then again that doesn't seem to make any difference these days.

-as

Antti Salonen said:

Quoted message said:

The real $64 question is when Campagnolo's phantasmal electronic
shifting will appear on the market. Last seen in
competition-testing in 2003:

Quoted message said:

It was also used by at least the Phonak team in Paris-Roubaix two
days ago. I don't think it can be much more than two years before it
hits the market. Of course it won't work any better and costs
ridiculously much, but then again that doesn't seem to make any
difference these days.

From all this is seems the UCI backed off its rule that no external
power may be used to operate the bicycle (brakes, shifting, steering,
or of course propulsion). That was the impetus for the ZAP and
Mektronic that used no such power other than the shift signals
between hand lever and derailleur.

[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ronald said:

Quoted message said:

It was also used by at least the Phonak team in Paris-Roubaix two

days

Quoted message said:

ago. I don't think it can be much more than two years before it hits

the

Quoted message said:

market. Of course it won't work any better and costs ridiculously

much,

Quoted message said:

but then again that doesn't seem to make any difference these days.

Only advantange i see is for pro-teams when switching handlebars etc.
With electronic [censored] they only have to reconnect the electric
cables
instead of using a new set of inner cables and re-adjust the shifting.
They
could put some connectors near the headtube and deraillieurs and put
all
the cables in the frame.

I don't think this is enough of an advantage to get the race teams
excited. After all, there is still the small matter of the brakes.

Aside from making shifter placement more versatile and the shifting
action completely arbitrary (you could have low-effort levers, little
contact buttons like the Flight Deck controls, whatever), I think the
advantage Campy would sell this on is more precise control over the
motion of the shifters during shifts, and even auto-trimming the front
shifter in concert with changes on the rear cluster. That last ability
would thus use expensive electronics to perfectly emulate the SunTour
Symmetric shifters from about 25 years ago.

I have also suggested two other possibilities for electronic shifters:
automatic shifting (probably a dubious benefit) and preprogrammed
sequential shifting, in which a single set of buttons would run through
both the front in rear clusters in a preprogrammed order, executing
front, rear, and alpine shifts as necessary to run through the right
order.

It could be the rebirth of half-step!

In imagining a single best use of this technology, I think it is in the
chance to get more precise shifting. The bugbear with modern indexing is
that the indexing gaps are set by the levers, and are then transmitted
through a long and tortured cable run to the derailer, at which point
the derailer must move with better than millimeter precision for best
shifting.

Electronic shifting can put the indexing back in the derailer, and it
can make it dynamic. Heck, with the right programming, it could probably
glean enough feedback to be self-correcting if a shift went wrong for
some reason.

The downside is that the current system looks like it packs quite a
weight penalty, and the cost should be something north of ludicrous. And
the people who are leery of the reliability of indexed shifters on
remote tours are going to looove battery-operated shifting.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

Ryan Cousineau said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It was also used by at least the Phonak team in Paris-Roubaix two
days ago. I don't think it can be much more than two years before
it hits the market. Of course it won't work any better and costs
ridiculously much, but then again that doesn't seem to make any
difference these days.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Only advantage I see is for pro-teams when switching handlebars
etc. With electronic shifting they only have to reconnect the
electric cables instead of using a new set of inner cables and
re-adjust the shifting. They could put some connectors near the
headtube and derailleurs and put all the cables in the frame.

Quoted message said:

I don't think this is enough of an advantage to get the race teams
excited. After all, there is still the small matter of the brakes.

Quoted message said:

Aside from making shifter placement more versatile and the shifting
action completely arbitrary (you could have low-effort levers,
little contact buttons like the Flight Deck controls, whatever), I
think the advantage Campy would sell this on is more precise control
over the motion of the shifters during shifts, and even
auto-trimming the front shifter in concert with changes on the rear
cluster. That last ability would thus use expensive electronics to
perfectly emulate the SunTour Symmetric shifters from about 25 years
ago.

These devices were scrapped for functional reasons and at that time a
variety of combinations were tried and rejected. To go back to them
would most likely be a mistake.

Quoted message said:

I have also suggested two other possibilities for electronic
shifters: automatic shifting (probably a dubious benefit) and
preprogrammed sequential shifting, in which a single set of buttons
would run through both the front in rear clusters in a preprogrammed
order, executing front, rear, and alpine shifts as necessary to run
through the right order.

Quoted message said:

It could be the rebirth of half-step!

I think that if this gimmick comes to market, it will have to include
some combination of three ranges (one per CW) as well as a mix for
those users intent on 30 sequential combinations for it is they who
will probably be the greater market for this. The reason it must be
used by a racing team is that that is where the people with the cash
find their equipment goals. 'If Lance uses it, I've gotta have it.'

Quoted message said:

In imagining a single best use of this technology, I think it is in
the chance to get more precise shifting. The bugbear with modern
indexing is that the indexing gaps are set by the levers, and are
then transmitted through a long and tortured cable run to the
derailer, at which point the derailer must move with better than
millimeter precision for best shifting.

Whoa! Indexing was once in the derailleur and failed miserably for
obvious reasons. We don't have the steps separate from the
derailleur for nothing. The position of the indexed steps can be
synchronized with the cluster with a twist of the cable adjuster
barrel, the spacing remaining constant. To move indexing INTO the
derailleur is a major mechanical headache. Besides, if you have a
motor doing that, it doesn't need indexing. It 'knows' where the
steps are, given a starting point.

Quoted message said:

Electronic shifting can put the indexing back in the derailer, and
it can make it dynamic. Heck, with the right programming, it could
probably glean enough feedback to be self-correcting if a shift went
wrong for some reason.

I assume you mean you don't need indexing.

Quoted message said:

The downside is that the current system looks like it packs quite a
weight penalty, and the cost should be something north of ludicrous.
And the people who are leery of the reliability of indexed shifters
on remote tours are going to looove battery-operated shifting.

For that reason I prefer downtube shifters. Just imagine being on a
tour and having a failure in such a system. How does one get to the
next qualified repair station if the thing fails in top gear.

[email hidden]

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Electronic shifting can put the indexing back in the derailer, and it
can make it dynamic.

Where would you suppose the power would come from to maintain tension on the
derailer to hold it in position over an infinite range?

Tom Kunich said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Electronic shifting can put the indexing back in the derailer, and it
can make it dynamic.

Where would you suppose the power would come from to maintain tension on the
derailer to hold it in position over an infinite range?

Tom I imagine it would be a electronic unit driving a stepper motor
which drives a screw thread. If it's a fairly fine thread the holding
force required would be very little, if any. The stepper motor would be
programmed to know the number of "steps" between each gear and you could
use a "pulser" to make fine adjustments.

I imagine Sheldon will be bringing out the electronic internal hub gear
version for tourers soon.

Marty

Quoted message said:

I wonder, what's next.

http://tinyurl.com/5dqd6

As you can see from the parent listing in
http://tinyurl.com/6xsch
"set" means not just a pair, but also a bottle of Italian wine as a
free introductory offer.

http://tinyurl.com/5b249
This is for one, with a different free introductory offer.®

Tom Kunich said:

"Ryan Cousineau" a écrit:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Electronic shifting can put the indexing back in the derailer, and it
can make it dynamic.

Tom Kunich schreib:

Quoted message said:

Where would you suppose the power would come from to maintain tension on the
derailer to hold it in position over an infinite range?

No "power" is needed to hold a derailer in position if you use an
escapement type mechanism, sort of like what's in an STI shifter. Power
is only needed to execute the shift.

One excellent source for the power for such a system is a generator hub.

Indeed, Shimano is currently actively developing such a system, based on
their fabulous 8-speed Nexus hub with an electronic controller.

The Nexus 8-speed hub is the best shifting bicycle gear system ever, and
seems to be particularly well suited to electronic control.

Sheldon "Still Using Mechanical Control For My Nexi" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| You can go wrong by being too skeptical |
| as readily as by being too trusting. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Indeed, Shimano is currently actively developing such a system, based
on their fabulous 8-speed Nexus hub with an electronic controller.

I do not know about the situation in the US, but their "Smover" group
seems to be readily available in Europe. Now I am watching for the
first cyclist waiting alongside the road together with a Mercedes
driver both stopped by electronics breakdown ;-)

Guenther

Günther Schwarz said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Indeed, Shimano is currently actively developing such a system, based
on their fabulous 8-speed Nexus hub with an electronic controller.

I do not know about the situation in the US, but their "Smover" group
seems to be readily available in Europe. Now I am watching for the
first cyclist waiting alongside the road together with a Mercedes
driver both stopped by electronics breakdown ;-)

Guenther

I can just imagine the guy at the bikeshop looking at the electronic
unit and saying "I'm sorry sir, but your version of Microsoft Gear
Change 2006 has a problem and you'll have to contact Microsoft for the
latest upgrade."

Marty

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aside from making shifter placement more versatile and the shifting
action completely arbitrary (you could have low-effort levers,
little contact buttons like the Flight Deck controls, whatever), I
think the advantage Campy would sell this on is more precise control
over the motion of the shifters during shifts, and even
auto-trimming the front shifter in concert with changes on the rear
cluster. That last ability would thus use expensive electronics to
perfectly emulate the SunTour Symmetric shifters from about 25 years
ago.

These devices were scrapped for functional reasons and at that time a
variety of combinations were tried and rejected. To go back to them
would most likely be a mistake.

Interesting... what was the failing of Symmetric shifters? I have seen a
few pairs, and the mechanism struck me as elegant and simple. I assume
that in practice it just didn't provide useful and consistent front
derailer trim?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have also suggested two other possibilities for electronic
shifters: automatic shifting (probably a dubious benefit) and
preprogrammed sequential shifting, in which a single set of buttons
would run through both the front in rear clusters in a preprogrammed
order, executing front, rear, and alpine shifts as necessary to run
through the right order.

Quoted message said:

It could be the rebirth of half-step!

I think that if this gimmick comes to market, it will have to include
some combination of three ranges (one per CW) as well as a mix for
those users intent on 30 sequential combinations for it is they who
will probably be the greater market for this. The reason it must be
used by a racing team is that that is where the people with the cash
find their equipment goals. 'If Lance uses it, I've gotta have it.'

Well, the marvel of electronics is that any imaginable program is
possible, though I imagine the makers will not be daring enough to open
the programming interface to the public (too bad...).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In imagining a single best use of this technology, I think it is in
the chance to get more precise shifting. The bugbear with modern
indexing is that the indexing gaps are set by the levers, and are
then transmitted through a long and tortured cable run to the
derailer, at which point the derailer must move with better than
millimeter precision for best shifting.

Whoa! Indexing was once in the derailleur and failed miserably for
obvious reasons. We don't have the steps separate from the
derailleur for nothing. The position of the indexed steps can be
synchronized with the cluster with a twist of the cable adjuster
barrel, the spacing remaining constant. To move indexing INTO the
derailleur is a major mechanical headache. Besides, if you have a
motor doing that, it doesn't need indexing. It 'knows' where the
steps are, given a starting point.

I was aware of Positron, but hadn't thought of the reason for lever
indexing. Actually, I always thought of the barrel adjuster (my downtube
stops actually have two different mechanisms: a barrel adjuster on the
front cable, and a fancy quick-adjust lever on the rear cable) as an
attempt to fix the problem of lever indexing.

Your point about electronic shifting being non-indexed (or perhaps in
marketing-speak, dynamically indexed?) is a good one. This points to the
sometimes-overlooked fact that indexed shifting wasn't an end, just a
means to the goal of "better" shifting, meaning shifts that take less
time and trouble.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Electronic shifting can put the indexing back in the derailer, and
it can make it dynamic. Heck, with the right programming, it could
probably glean enough feedback to be self-correcting if a shift went
wrong for some reason.

I assume you mean you don't need indexing.

As it were. I understand why you make a distinction between indexing and
the electronic system's really precise derailer movement. But from the
user perspective, the result is the same: there's an upshift and a
downshift input, and the user does not have to contemplate how far the
input should move in order to get a perfect shift.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The downside is that the current system looks like it packs quite a
weight penalty, and the cost should be something north of ludicrous.
And the people who are leery of the reliability of indexed shifters
on remote tours are going to looove battery-operated shifting.

For that reason I prefer downtube shifters. Just imagine being on a
tour and having a failure in such a system. How does one get to the
next qualified repair station if the thing fails in top gear.

There's failures and then there's failures, but I bet they keep limit
screws on these derailer bodies.

It bears saying again: I happily use friction DT shifters on my
commuter, and they even work on 8v hyperglide clusters. Nothing more is
necessary on a typical non-racing bike. But on my racing bike, I'm very
glad to have indexed brifters, because it's one less thing that needs my
attention during a race.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.