Re: CDC Links Extra Pounds, Lower Death Risk

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from

extra

Quoted message said:

weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.

At His service,

Andrew

In English, doc?

Apple-shaped people have more heart attacks.

--
Cheers,
Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Little Mary took her skis upon the snow to frisk.
Wasn't she a silly girl her little * ?

The Real Bev said:

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from

extra

Quoted message said:

weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.

At His service,

Andrew

In English, doc?

Apple-shaped people have more heart attacks.

--
Cheers,
Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Little Mary took her skis upon the snow to frisk.
Wasn't she a silly girl her little * ?

soooo....
reader's digest: to live longer put on a big ass instead of a big
belly???

On 20 Apr 2005 09:29:22 -0700, "Larry Bud" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from

extra

Quoted message said:

weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.

At His service,

Andrew

In English, doc?

Fat people are more likely to have heart attacks or strokes.

"Bob Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 20 Apr 2005 09:29:22 -0700, "Larry Bud" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from

extra

Quoted message said:

weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.

At His service,

Andrew

In English, doc?

Fat people are more likely to have heart attacks or strokes.

And type-2 diabetes

--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov

Williams said:

The Real Bev said:

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from
extra
> weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
> significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.
>
> At His service,
>
> Andrew

In English, doc?

Apple-shaped people have more heart attacks.

--
Cheers,
Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Little Mary took her skis upon the snow to frisk.
Wasn't she a silly girl her little * ?

soooo....
reader's digest: to live longer put on a big ass instead of a big
belly???

You really don't have a choice where the fat goes. This depends on how
God has made you.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from

extra

Quoted message said:

weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.

At His service,

Andrew

In English, doc?

Fat around your insides (guts, kidneys, heart, liver etc) will cause you
to have heart attacks and strokes.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from

extra

Quoted message said:

weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.

At His service,

Andrew

In English, doc?

Fat around your insides (guts, kidneys, heart, liver etc) will cause you
to have heart attacks and strokes.

Speaking of which, I have often wondered:

For those people who use liposuction to 'sculpt' the perfect body, would any
increase in calories result in disproportionately more fat around the
insides?

In other words, might there be svelt people running around who have all
their fat inside the body cavity instead of outside where the rest of us can
see it? (I guess you could spot them, they probably also have frozen faces,
augmenting their liposuctioned perfection with botox).

Hmmm, high risk without the judgmental admonishment from strangers. Wonder
if that reduces stress?

For that matter, how would the reduced stress, by not being described as
"fat people" factor into their risk.

Just wondering.......

Quoted message said:

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

The study indicated that folks with a BMI between 25 and 30 (a.k.a
overweight) are less likely to die than those with "normal" BMI.

1. Are you saying that this is not true?
2. Are you saying that there are actual outcomes-based studies that
demonstrate that subgroups within this overweight group exist that are
more likely to die than people at "normal" BMI?

If either 1. or 2., please provide references.

At Your Service,

=OCCAMMAN=

Andrew B. Chung said:

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from

extra

Quoted message said:

weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.

At His service,

Andrew

In English, doc?

Fat around your insides (guts, kidneys, heart, liver etc) will cause you
to have heart attacks and strokes.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

OccamMan said:

The study indicated that folks with a BMI between 25 and 30 (a.k.a
overweight) are less likely to die than those with "normal" BMI.

1. Are you saying that this is not true?
2. Are you saying that there are actual outcomes-based studies that
demonstrate that subgroups within this overweight group exist that are
more likely to die than people at "normal" BMI?

If either 1. or 2., please provide references.

The latter.

Here are the subgroups with conditions related to their being
overweight:

(1) Hypertension.

(2) Diabetes Mellitus.

(3) Dyslipidemia.

(4) Metabolic syndrome.

If you truly need references that show that these subgroups have higher
rates of cardiovascular events, please let me know.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Sharon Hope said:

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from
extra
> weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
> significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.
>
> At His service,
>
> Andrew

In English, doc?

Fat around your insides (guts, kidneys, heart, liver etc) will cause you
to have heart attacks and strokes.

Speaking of which, I have often wondered:

For those people who use liposuction to 'sculpt' the perfect body, would any
increase in calories result in disproportionately more fat around the
insides?

There is no reason to believe that proportion (ratio of visceral fat to
total fat) matters.

Quoted message said:

In other words, might there be svelt people running around who have all
their fat inside the body cavity instead of outside where the rest of us can
see it? (I guess you could spot them, they probably also have frozen faces,
augmenting their liposuctioned perfection with botox).

There are. These would be the folks with BMIs of 21-25 who still have
metabolic syndrome (MetS) despite being only a bit heavier than
"ideal."

Quoted message said:

Hmmm, high risk without the judgmental admonishment from strangers. Wonder
if that reduces stress?

Without stress, there can be no life.

Quoted message said:

For that matter, how would the reduced stress, by not being described as
"fat people" factor into their risk.

Stress does not factor into risk.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from
extra
> weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
> significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.
>
> At His service,
>
> Andrew

In English, doc?

Fat around your insides (guts, kidneys, heart, liver etc) will cause you
to have heart attacks and strokes.

Speaking of which, I have often wondered:

For those people who use liposuction to 'sculpt' the perfect body, would any
increase in calories result in disproportionately more fat around the
insides?

In other words, might there be svelt people running around who have all
their fat inside the body cavity instead of outside where the rest of us can
see it? (I guess you could spot them, they probably also have frozen faces,
augmenting their liposuctioned perfection with botox).

Hmmm, high risk without the judgmental admonishment from strangers. Wonder
if that reduces stress?

For that matter, how would the reduced stress, by not being described as
"fat people" factor into their risk.

Just wondering.......

I recall a study several months ago that might relate to your question. People
looked at whether liposuction reduced the risk of heart disease. The answer
was no. Most people thought it was because liposuction does not reduce
visceral fat. (I thought the fact that diet did not change might also have
something to do with it.)

Bill

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Bill said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Larry Bud wrote:
>
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from
> extra
> > weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
> > significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.
> >
> > At His service,
> >
> > Andrew
>
> In English, doc?

Fat around your insides (guts, kidneys, heart, liver etc) will cause you
to have heart attacks and strokes.

Speaking of which, I have often wondered:

For those people who use liposuction to 'sculpt' the perfect body, would any
increase in calories result in disproportionately more fat around the
insides?

In other words, might there be svelt people running around who have all
their fat inside the body cavity instead of outside where the rest of us can
see it? (I guess you could spot them, they probably also have frozen faces,
augmenting their liposuctioned perfection with botox).

Hmmm, high risk without the judgmental admonishment from strangers. Wonder
if that reduces stress?

For that matter, how would the reduced stress, by not being described as
"fat people" factor into their risk.

Just wondering.......

I recall a study several months ago that might relate to your question. People
looked at whether liposuction reduced the risk of heart disease. The answer
was no.

Correct.

Quoted message said:

Most people thought it was because liposuction does not reduce
visceral fat.

That is the explanation given by the authors of the study.

Quoted message said:

(I thought the fact that diet did not change might also have
something to do with it.)

(If there was a diet change, there would have been an additional
confounding variable)

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Sorry, you didn't answer either of my questions which address excess
deaths, not cardiovascular risk. These two are related, but not the
same thing. For example, perhaps a condition that causes increased
cardiovascular risk more than offsets this with a decrease in some other
risk

Andrew B. Chung said:

OccamMan said:

The study indicated that folks with a BMI between 25 and 30 (a.k.a
overweight) are less likely to die than those with "normal" BMI.

1. Are you saying that this is not true?
2. Are you saying that there are actual outcomes-based studies that
demonstrate that subgroups within this overweight group exist that are
more likely to die than people at "normal" BMI?

If either 1. or 2., please provide references.

The latter.

Here are the subgroups with conditions related to their being
overweight:

(1) Hypertension.

(2) Diabetes Mellitus.

(3) Dyslipidemia.

(4) Metabolic syndrome.

If you truly need references that show that these subgroups have higher
rates of cardiovascular events, please let me know.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

OccamMan said:

Sorry, you didn't answer either of my questions which address excess
deaths, not cardiovascular risk.

Generally, increased cardiovascular risk is synonymous with higher death
rates especially in countries where cardiovascular death rates are high
as they are in the U.S.

Quoted message said:

These two are related, but not the same thing.

Close enough so that one would expect the same trend.

Quoted message said:

For example, perhaps a condition that causes increased
cardiovascular risk more than offsets this with a decrease in some other risk

Not for the four subgroups that I have given you.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Quoted message said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

OccamMan said:

The study indicated that folks with a BMI between 25 and 30 (a.k.a
overweight) are less likely to die than those with "normal" BMI.

1. Are you saying that this is not true?
2. Are you saying that there are actual outcomes-based studies that
demonstrate that subgroups within this overweight group exist that are
more likely to die than people at "normal" BMI?

If either 1. or 2., please provide references.

The latter.

Here are the subgroups with conditions related to their being
overweight:

(1) Hypertension.

(2) Diabetes Mellitus.

(3) Dyslipidemia.

(4) Metabolic syndrome.

If you truly need references that show that these subgroups have higher
rates of cardiovascular events, please let me know.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

So you're saying that the CDC study is wrong. I cannot see any way to
reconcile what you're saying with what the CDC actually found.

Interesting.

Andrew B. Chung said:

OccamMan said:

Sorry, you didn't answer either of my questions which address excess
deaths, not cardiovascular risk.

Generally, increased cardiovascular risk is synonymous with higher death
rates especially in countries where cardiovascular death rates are high
as they are in the U.S.

Quoted message said:

These two are related, but not the same thing.

Close enough so that one would expect the same trend.

Quoted message said:

For example, perhaps a condition that causes increased
cardiovascular risk more than offsets this with a decrease in some other risk

Not for the four subgroups that I have given you.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Quoted message said:

Andrew B. Chung said:

OccamMan wrote:

>The study indicated that folks with a BMI between 25 and 30 (a.k.a
>overweight) are less likely to die than those with "normal" BMI.
>
>1. Are you saying that this is not true?
>2. Are you saying that there are actual outcomes-based studies that
>demonstrate that subgroups within this overweight group exist that are
>more likely to die than people at "normal" BMI?
>
>If either 1. or 2., please provide references.

The latter.

Here are the subgroups with conditions related to their being
overweight:

(1) Hypertension.

(2) Diabetes Mellitus.

(3) Dyslipidemia.

(4) Metabolic syndrome.

If you truly need references that show that these subgroups have higher
rates of cardiovascular events, please let me know.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Williams said:

The Real Bev said:

Larry Bud said:

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Writing as a cardiologist, metabolic syndrome (MetS) arising from
> extra weight around the midsection remains associated with clinically
> significant higher rates of cardiovascular events.

In English, doc?

Apple-shaped people have more heart attacks.

soooo....
reader's digest: to live longer put on a big ass instead of a big
belly???

You have no choice in the matter.

--
Cheers, Bev
==============================================================
"Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special
Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded."

OccamMan said:

So you're saying that the CDC study is wrong.

No.

Quoted message said:

I cannot see any way to
reconcile what you're saying with what the CDC actually found.

There are subgroups of non-overweight people who have had unintentional
weight loss because of undiagnosed conditions like cancer, AIDS, and
depression. These folks will raise the death rates of the
non-overweight group overall.

Quoted message said:

Interesting.

It is.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

1. Can you point to any literature that says that those undiagnosed
subgroups typically lose weight? I'd expect that this would mean that
there are a fair number of undiagnosed folks in the population, and
their condition causes weight loss. In the case of depression, the
literature seems to indicate weight gain rather than weight loss (e.g.:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z29A320FA )

2. Wouldn't those subgroups also move from obese to overweight, again
increasing mortality in the latter group? And move from normal weight
to underweight, reducing mortality in the former group?

=OCCAMMAN=

Andrew B. Chung said:

OccamMan said:

So you're saying that the CDC study is wrong.

No.

Quoted message said:

I cannot see any way to
reconcile what you're saying with what the CDC actually found.

There are subgroups of non-overweight people who have had unintentional
weight loss because of undiagnosed conditions like cancer, AIDS, and
depression. These folks will raise the death rates of the
non-overweight group overall.

Quoted message said:

Interesting.

It is.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

OccamMan <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

2. Wouldn't those subgroups also move from obese to overweight, again
increasing mortality in the latter group? And move from normal weight
to underweight, reducing mortality in the former group?

I haven't looked, but almost certainly there is a bell-shaped
population curve over the under-, normal, over-, obese categories.
The largest effect of latent illness would then be from those in
the normal (or maybe the overweight) category dropping into a
lower category.

The balance of changes would then increase mortality in the
normal and under- categories and would reduce it in the over- and
obese categories.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA