Kelme does it again!

otto said:

First it was that kelme sprinter who took out Cipolinni in the Giro, and now it's another
(guiterrez, can't remember which one) who takes out almost the entire field).

On Belgian TV De Cauwer said that it was Médéric Clain (Fra - Cofidis, Le Crédit par Téléphone) who
pussed J. Guiterrez away and that's why Guiterrez fel.

--
Dolfy -Webstek : dolfy.50megs.comdolfy.50megs.comOpen ↗ -Nieuwsgroep : alt.dolfy.forever -Webstek :
briachons.workingonit.orgbriachons.workingonit.orgOpen ↗

(otto) said:

First it was that kelme sprinter who took out Cipolinni in the Giro, and now it's another
(guiterrez, can't remember which one) who takes out almost the entire field).

Could have been that little Cofidis rider that was in front of him who sure doesn't look like a
sprinter and would be questionable about his handling into the last corner.

Looks to me from the video, the Cofidis rider changed his line, causing the Kelme rider Tar McAdam
to go wide and unclip and then lie down on the road.

Impressive was a the instant carnage image that flashed in my head as I saw the first row of riders
going down. Especially seeing it was an unsighted right hander by the remainder of the peleton.

It would be cool if Tyler went on to win the Vuelta to salvage his season. I really should restate
that since he has had a phenomenal season, but maybe he can win more after he heals and pushing the
Kelmes out of their home Tour would be poetic justice.

"otto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

First it was that kelme sprinter who took out Cipolinni in the Giro, and now it's another
(guiterrez, can't remember which one) who takes out almost the entire field).

i hope tyler's shoulder isn't that bad, or there goes my fantasy tour team...

(Dolfy) said:

On Belgian TV De Cauwer said that it was Médéric Clain (Fra - Cofidis, Le Crédit par Téléphone) who
pussed J. Guiterrez away and that's why Guiterrez fel.

Glad I wasn't the only one imagining this.

Cofidis are having a great start to the tour.

Its getting the point that the sprint finishes are getting so crazy, the GC contenders should just
peel off the back with a kilometer to go to avoid any mishaps( kinda like a expensive QB slide to
avoid a tackle). I mean the team has so much invested in the guy and to see him go out on the first
day like Tyler hamilton..

There is talk about rewriting the last km rule by extending it. Maybe they can also change it so
that everyone gets the some time of the group they are in as they pass the 3K to go. I dunno, there
are a lot of pitfalls to changing it at all. I have mixed feelings. Maybe there is another way to
handle this by creating more stringent rules about the course in the last 3 to 5 kilometers. Again,
there are pitfalls but that is probably a much better way to reduce risk for all of the riders and
still keep the race interesting and easy to understand for the fans. For example, the course where
Cipo went down was a terrible design. It would have been dangerous if it was dry and as it turned
out with the rain it was very fortunate to not have more riders crash and get seriously hurt.

"merckx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Its getting the point that the sprint finishes are getting so crazy, the GC contenders should just
peel off the back with a kilometer to go to avoid any mishaps( kinda like a expensive QB slide to
avoid a tackle). I mean the team has so much invested in the guy and to see him go out on the
first day like Tyler hamilton..

Quoted message said:

From: "Nick Burns" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

It would be cool if Tyler went on to win the Vuelta to salvage his season. I really should restate
that since he has had a phenomenal season, but maybe he can win more after he heals and pushing the
Kelmes out of their home Tour would be poetic justice.

It wasn't the Kelme riders fault IMHO. The idiot who aproved a course with an "S" bend within the
last kilometer for the first stage of the tour when there is a full field and the sprinters are all
fighting for the yeallow gets about 60% of the blame. Looked to me like the Cofidis rider came
across and hit the Kelme riders front wheel. If I was the chief ref for that mess the Cofidis rider
would be packing his bags now. Bill C

I have not seen it yet. I was going by the single POV I read.

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "Nick Burns" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

It would be cool if Tyler went on to win the Vuelta to salvage his

season. I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

really should restate that since he has had a phenomenal season, but

maybe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he can win more after he heals and pushing the Kelmes out of their home

Tour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would be poetic justice.

It wasn't the Kelme riders fault IMHO. The idiot who aproved a course

with an

Quoted message said:

"S" bend within the last kilometer for the first stage of the tour when

there

Quoted message said:

is a full field and the sprinters are all fighting for the yeallow gets

about

Quoted message said:

60% of the blame. Looked to me like the Cofidis rider came across and hit

the

Quoted message said:

Kelme riders front wheel. If I was the chief ref for that mess the Cofidis rider would be packing
his bags now. Bill C

Quoted message said:

It wasn't the Kelme riders fault IMHO. The idiot who aproved a course

with an

Quoted message said:

"S" bend within the last kilometer for the first stage of the tour when

there

Quoted message said:

is a full field and the sprinters are all fighting for the yeallow gets

about

Quoted message said:

60% of the blame. Looked to me like the Cofidis rider came across and hit

the

Quoted message said:

Kelme riders front wheel. If I was the chief ref for that mess the Cofidis rider would be packing
his bags now. Bill C

Your description agrees 100% with the way Gutierrez (the Kelme rider) described what happended. The
Cofidis guy came across and their wheels got tangled. They both lost control and fell and then the
huge pile up... I am sorry for Hamilton, he really looked in excellent conditions to do something
important in this tour...

This has got to be one of the best posts I have read.

Peter

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have not seen it yet. I was going by the single POV I read.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "Nick Burns" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

It would be cool if Tyler went on to win the Vuelta to salvage his

season. I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

really should restate that since he has had a phenomenal season, but

maybe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he can win more after he heals and pushing the Kelmes out of their home

Tour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would be poetic justice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

snip<<

Intersting thought.

But if the finishing stretches are straightend out or made "more safe" won't the pack just hit the
line at a higher speed still all together (after the first couple of sprinters)? The finishing
stretch is subject not only to pressures from organizers for publicity reasons but also the layout
is a design issue for creating a sprinter finish. "enmasse" finishes mostly are in name only. The
true sprint finish tends to have a strung-out pack. Clearly not as strung out as a mountaintop
finish or as a result of a couple of different groups getting away. The course designer has to
fashion the finish in such a way as to not have 160 riders all crossing, or trying to cross, the
line at the same time. Certainly the preceeding mileage of the course helps, but in the big tours
there will be a lot of stages with the peleton pretty well together. How to get a reasonable finish?

Which is more safe? A course designed to select the winners from a peloton at the end of a long
stage as a result of team tactics and rider skill or a course design that allows for everyone
blasting for the line, regardless of ability?

Or is there some way to get riders to pre-select themselves: "this used to be a "dangerous" finish,
but they've straightened it out now and so I am not going to clutter things up and just let the
sprinters go". I don't think that would work. Even with my lowly abilities, within sight of the line
I go like a daft monk on a day out... Mike

Quoted message said:

It wasn't the Kelme riders fault IMHO. The idiot who aproved a course with an "S" bend within the
last kilometer for the first stage of the tour when there is a full field and the sprinters are
all fighting for the yeallow gets about 60% of the blame. Looked to me like the Cofidis rider
came across and hit the Kelme riders front wheel. If I was the chief ref for that mess the
Cofidis rider would be packing his bags now. Bill C

I kept looking over the OLN tape that was broadcasted. I had to watch it several times over and
over, but here's my take of the chain reactions:

- McEwen is around 3rd-4th going into the turn.
- McEwen makes a move where he goes outside and shoots inside cutting off Zabel.
- Zabel's front wheel actually makes contact with McEwen's back wheel.
- Zabel makes some kind of move where he spins out and his rear wheel jumps out and he makes the
turn very sharply.
- Cooke sees Zabel's wheel hop and steers outside suddenly
- Cooke nudges Thor
- Clain had been approaching the turn on the far outside fairly aggressively having just passed
Samuel Sanchez and Vicioso while Gutierrez is behind and outside of Clain
- Thor nudges Clain sending him straight towards the barrier
- Gutierrez is running out of room approaching a barrier and clips out
- Gutierrez runs up on one of the dangerous barrier feet and his front wheel washes out causing his
bike to flip over.
- Caspar's front wheel catches Gutierrez's seat and seat post causing a chain reaction.

In my opinion no one is really at fault. There are just a lot of riders in a tight area.

(Dolfy) said:

otto said:

First it was that kelme sprinter who took out Cipolinni in the Giro, and now it's another
(guiterrez, can't remember which one) who takes out almost the entire field).

On Belgian TV De Cauwer said that it was Médéric Clain (Fra - Cofidis, Le Crédit par Téléphone) who
pussed J. Guiterrez away and that's why Guiterrez fel.

No redesign is necessary, just take the turn slower or more skillfully. You want a velodrome oval?
drag strip?

Nick Burns said:

There is talk about rewriting the last km rule by extending it. Maybe they can also change it so
that everyone gets the some time of the group they are in as they pass the 3K to go. I dunno, there
are a lot of pitfalls to changing it at all. I have mixed feelings. Maybe there is another way to
handle this by creating more stringent rules about the course in the last 3 to 5 kilometers. Again,
there are pitfalls but that is probably a much better way to reduce risk for all of the riders and
still keep the race interesting and easy to understand for the fans. For example, the course where
Cipo went down was a terrible design. It would have been dangerous if it was dry and as it turned
out with the rain it was very fortunate to not have more riders crash and get seriously hurt.

"merckx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Its getting the point that the sprint finishes are getting so crazy, the GC contenders should
just peel off the back with a kilometer to go to avoid any mishaps( kinda like a expensive QB
slide to avoid a tackle). I mean the team has so much invested in the guy and to see him go out
on the first day like Tyler hamilton..

Khoomei <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I kept looking over the OLN tape that was broadcasted. I had to watch it several times over and
over, but here's my take of the chain reactions:

- McEwen is around 3rd-4th going into the turn.
- McEwen makes a move where he goes outside and shoots inside cutting off Zabel.
- Zabel's front wheel actually makes contact with McEwen's back wheel.
- Zabel makes some kind of move where he spins out and his rear wheel jumps out and he makes the
turn very sharply.
- Cooke sees Zabel's wheel hop and steers outside suddenly
- Cooke nudges Thor
- Clain had been approaching the turn on the far outside fairl>

aggressively having just passed Samuel Sanchez and Vicioso while

Quoted message said:

Gutierrez is behind and outside of Clain
- Thor nudges Clain sending him straight towards the barrier
- Gutierrez is running out of room approaching a barrier and clips out
- Gutierrez runs up on one of the dangerous barrier feet and his front wheel washes out causing
his bike to flip over.
- Caspar's front wheel catches Gutierrez's seat and seat post causing a chain reaction.

In my opinion no one is really at fault. There are just a lot of riders in a tight area.

Oh? From your description, I would say it was McEwen's fault. He needs to spend less time whining
and more time learning how to hold his line in the sprint.

- Boyd S.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Michael

McMurray) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

snip<<

Intersting thought.

But if the finishing stretches are straightend out or made "more safe" won't the pack just hit
the line at a higher speed still all together (after the first couple of sprinters)? The
finishing stretch is subject not only to pressures from organizers for publicity reasons but also
the layout is a design issue for creating a sprinter finish. "enmasse" finishes mostly are in
name only. The true sprint finish tends to have a strung-out pack. Clearly not as strung out as a
mountaintop finish or as a result of a couple of different groups getting away. The course
designer has to fashion the finish in such a way as to not have 160 riders all crossing, or
trying to cross, the line at the same time. Certainly the preceeding mileage of the course helps,
but in the big tours there will be a lot of stages with the peleton pretty well together. How to
get a reasonable finish?

The riders are not all trying to cross the line at the same time. That's the rationale behind the
"bunch-gets-the-same-time" rule. They are still trying to get close enough to get credit for the
same time as the winner, though.

Quoted message said:

Which is more safe? A course designed to select the winners from a peloton at the end of a long
stage as a result of team tactics and rider skill or a course design that allows for everyone
blasting for the line, regardless of ability?

How do you imagine that the course would pull out the winners? The only way I can think of to do
that is to get a rising finish line, which tends to spread out the sprint.

As for "regardless of ability", I assure you that about 170 members of the peloton were not at all
interested in the finish except for ensuring that the pack stayed within a second of the last
sprinter, 20 members of the peloton were either leadout riders or sprinters, and 10 members of the
peloton were completely deluding themselves.

Quoted message said:

Or is there some way to get riders to pre-select themselves: "this used to be a "dangerous"
finish, but they've straightened it out now and so I am not going to clutter things up and just
let the sprinters go". I don't think that would work. Even with my lowly abilities, within sight
of the line I go like a daft monk on a day out... Mike

Yeah, the way to get riders to pre-select themselves is to give them a sufficiently wide and
straight finish to allow sprinters and leadouts to sprint away and the pack enough room that it
doesn't have to cope with a narrowing sharp corner while riding at 60 km/h to stay within sight of
the sprinters.

Other solutions have been proposed, notably a "pre-finish" finish line (at the 3 km mark, for
instance) where GC times would be assigned before the true finish, where stage wins, sprint points,
and time bonuses would be awarded. The riders would thus roll across the pre-finish, be assured of a
GC time, and then the sprinters and the Div.2 teams could go nuts and try to pick up some points,
time bonuses, or stage wins while the bulk of the pack (climbers, GC riders, confirmed domestiques,
riders in neck braces or with broken collar bones...) would sit back and start their cool-down ride
3km early.

This has merit, but threatens to mess up the spirit and spectacle of the finish.

A 100-rider crash is the wrong kind of spectacle,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Snip<<

Ryan I agree that something should be tried. But the riders do go for the line. Yes I understand the
role of the domestique and all the other support riders. But: "McEwen continued, "I don't understand
what the classement riders think they are doing mingling in the sprint anyway? They find themselves
in a situation they know nothing about and then they crash. Maybe a new rule should be made: give
everyone the same time in the last 5 kilometres or something" While McEwen supports your comment
about lengthening the neutral distance (for GC time) to 5K even with that now at 1K the riders there
go for it. If there is to be some change as you suggest, and it might be worth a try, how do you get
the right riders to continue for a sprint and all the others, or even most of the others, to stand
down? Mike

As for "regardless of ability", I assure you that about 170 members of

Quoted message said:

the peloton were not at all interested in the finish except for ensuring that the pack stayed
within a second of the last sprinter, 20 members of the peloton were either leadout riders or
sprinters, and 10 members of the peloton were completely deluding themselves.

Quoted message said:

Or is there some way to get riders to pre-select themselves: "this used to be a "dangerous"
finish, but they've straightened it out now and so I am not going to clutter things up and just
let the sprinters go". I don't think that would work. Even with my lowly abilities, within sight
of the line I go like a daft monk on a day out... Mike

Yeah, the way to get riders to pre-select themselves is to give them a sufficiently wide and
straight finish to allow sprinters and leadouts to sprint away and the pack enough room that it
doesn't have to cope with a narrowing sharp corner while riding at 60 km/h to stay within sight of
the sprinters.

Other solutions have been proposed, notably a "pre-finish" finish line (at the 3 km mark, for
instance) where GC times would be assigned before the true finish, where stage wins, sprint
points, and time bonuses would be awarded. The riders would thus roll across the pre-finish, be
assured of a GC time, and then the sprinters and the Div.2 teams could go nuts and try to pick up
some points, time bonuses, or stage wins while the bulk of the pack (climbers, GC riders,
confirmed domestiques, riders in neck braces or with broken collar bones...) would sit back and
start their cool-down ride 3km early.

This has merit, but threatens to mess up the spirit and spectacle of the finish.

A 100-rider crash is the wrong kind of spectacle,

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Michael

McMurray) said:

As for "regardless of ability", I assure you that about 170 members of

Quoted message said:

the peloton were not at all interested in the finish except for ensuring that the pack stayed
within a second of the last sprinter, 20 members of the peloton were either leadout riders or
sprinters, and 10 members of the peloton were completely deluding themselves.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Other solutions have been proposed, notably a "pre-finish" finish line (at the 3 km mark, for
instance) where GC times would be assigned before the true finish, where stage wins, sprint
points, and time bonuses would be awarded. The riders would thus roll across the pre-finish, be
assured of a GC time, and then the sprinters and the Div.2 teams could go nuts and try to pick
up some points, time bonuses, or stage wins while the bulk of the pack (climbers, GC riders,
confirmed domestiques, riders in neck braces or with broken collar bones...) would sit back and
start their cool-down ride 3km early.

This has merit, but threatens to mess up the spirit and spectacle of the finish.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Snip<<

Ryan I agree that something should be tried. But the riders do go for the line. Yes I understand
the role of the domestique and all the other support riders. But:

...

Quoted message said:

While McEwen supports your comment about lengthening the neutral distance (for GC time) to 5K even
with that now at 1K the riders there go for it. If there is to be some change as you suggest, and
it might be worth a try, how do you get the right riders to continue for a sprint and all the
others, or even most of the others, to stand down?

I would like to note here that the pre-finish neutralization is not my idea, and I don't think I
even like it that much.

These are two different ideas. One is that if there is a crash in the last 1km, the timing is
neutralized for involved riders. It has been proposed that this rule be given more distance, say,
out to 3-5 km. The second idea is that there be a "pre-finish" distance at which the race is
neutralized, and then the sprinters proceed to the "real" finish.

The question of selection will be a very simple one. At the pre-finish, any riders slow and smart
enough not to contest the finish will pull up and coast home at some slow speed, well behind the
sprinters and lunatics.

The leadouts, sprinters, and foolhardy will proceed apace, but the danger will be mitigated by the
absence of most of the pack. You may still see some over-his-head Division II rider fall down and
take out a sprinter, but he won't fall down and take out a sprinter, plus 100 other riders. Most of
the time, you probably would see fewer than 20 riders hitting the finish at full speed.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

As somebody else has already mentioned, one problem is that the GS-II lunatics try to get a top 20
place instead of a top 40. The fact of the matter is that a top 20 placing in a Tour stage (or in
any major race) DOES mean a lot for a GS-II in terms of prize money, UCI points, green jersey
points, (which gives UCI points AND prize money), prestige (which means money from the sponsor),
etc, etc... One solution would be to reduce such rewards only to the top 5 or top 8 maybe, so that
it's really not worth for a 3rd rate sprinter to dash for the line.

But first of all the 3km-GC rule would be a good idea. I don't think it reduces the "show value" of
the finish. Actually if the GC contenders roll in slowly, there is a bigger chance for spectators to
spot them anyway. Or maybe they could introduce these 2-5km "extra laps" on all the flat stages. The
first time the finish line is passed the GC times are taken, the second time it's for the stage.

But anyway, I think they will change the rules only if:
A) Armstrong is the victim of such a crash
B) Another Kazach gets killed
C) A frenchman gets eliminated from the podium in the last week (very unlikely there is one anyway)

Sad, but true.

cy

Cyrus said:

C) A frenchman gets eliminated from the podium in the last week (very unlikely there is one
anyway)

About the same probability of there being someone from the USA there would you say?