insulin vs ketones

Mark McArthey said:

time making the switch only because I've been ingrained with the "no
carb" doctine.

There are no "no carb" diets. Even Atkins requires you to have a
minimum number of carbs, which ranges from 20g to 100g depending on
your CCLL. You've been eating your mandatory two salads a day, right?
Plus a serving of other veggies?

Quoted message said:

Tonight I took some oat bran, wheat bran, and assorted whole grains

Ok, you go from no carbs right to grains? What happened to all the
fruits and vegetables you skipped over?

Quoted message said:

I don't understand how I could possibly still lose weight on this
type of diet.

By eating fewer calories than you burn.

Quoted message said:

Of course, because of my doctor's suggestion, I will stick with it
for a while.

Did you ask your doctor *why* SB is preferred over Atkins? I mean,
other than their religious dogma? Most doctors misunderstand Atkins
(because most people don't follow it correctly) and, after the initial
extreme phases, there's really little difference between Atkins and
SB.

Quoted message said:

It made me wonder if ketosis is really necessary.

Ketosis is not necessary. However, even Atkins sets up the diet so
that your only *barely* in ketosis (most people get this part wrong)
during the weight loss phase. IMHO ketosis helps you restrict your
calories, but as long as you avoid excessive insulin surges, most
people should be OK.

"DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark McArthey said:

time making the switch only because I've been ingrained with the "no
carb" doctine.

There are no "no carb" diets. Even Atkins requires you to have a
minimum number of carbs, which ranges from 20g to 100g depending on
your CCLL. You've been eating your mandatory two salads a day, right?
Plus a serving of other veggies?

Before this thread goes any further, can we assume that I know about
Atkin's, have done well on it, and have lost 40 lbs on it? Vegetables, yes,
fruit, yes. Ok. Thanks. 😉

Quoted message said:

Did you ask your doctor *why* SB is preferred over Atkins? I mean,
other than their religious dogma? Most doctors misunderstand Atkins
(because most people don't follow it correctly) and, after the initial
extreme phases, there's really little difference between Atkins and
SB.

South Beach does not purport to be low-carb. "Good carb" is their tagline.
As I stated, I was planning on moving to a good carb plan of my own device
once I reached my goal, but my doctor wants to check some blood test results
by having me lay off the saturated fats. Granted, I could do this on an
Atkin's type diet, but he requested South Beach. I have to replace those
calories in my diet somehow and I believe he didn't want them all as
protein, either. Anyway, there's more to dieting than Atkin's which is the
reason for my question. I'm just researching the different mechanisms for
weight loss.

Quoted message said:

Ketosis is not necessary. However, even Atkins sets up the diet so
that your only *barely* in ketosis (most people get this part wrong)
during the weight loss phase. IMHO ketosis helps you restrict your
calories, but as long as you avoid excessive insulin surges, most
people should be OK.

I'm anxious to test this out. If I keep my insulin steady, I realize I
won't have any cravings. I'm looking forward to the modified diet and the
(hopefully) weight loss that goes along with it. I'm already exercising
quite a bit, so I don't expect any major backslides.

Thanks for your response,
Mark

Mark McArthey said:

Before this thread goes any further, can we assume that I know about
Atkin's, have done well on it, and have lost 40 lbs on it?
Vegetables, yes, fruit, yes. Ok. Thanks. 😉

Ok, then, why the "no carb doctrine" comment?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did you ask your doctor *why* SB is preferred over Atkins?

but he requested South Beach.

I'm just wondering what it was about Atkins that he dislikes, that he
asked you to change, rather than just saying something like "cut down
saturated fat" and letting you figure out how to do that.

Quoted message said:

I'm anxious to test this out. If I keep my insulin steady, I realize I
won't have any cravings.

The keys to this are making sure that you have sufficient proteins,
fats, and fiber in your diet; and spreading it all evenly so that each
meal has some - i.e. no single meal should cause an insulin spike.
All this will slow the absorption of carbs into the bloodstream, which
helps keep insulin levels steady.

If the issue is cholesterol levels and you are only three months in, I would
hang tough and continue to eat as you have been eating as cholesterol often
rises in the first few months and then goes down. Six months would be a
better testing point for the long term effect of Atkins.

In news:[email hidden],
Mark McArthey <[email hidden]> stated
| "DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
| news:[email hidden]...
||
|| "Mark McArthey" <[email hidden]> writes:
||| time making the switch only because I've been ingrained with the "no
||| carb" doctine.
||
|| There are no "no carb" diets. Even Atkins requires you to have a
|| minimum number of carbs, which ranges from 20g to 100g depending on
|| your CCLL. You've been eating your mandatory two salads a day,
|| right? Plus a serving of other veggies?
||
| Before this thread goes any further, can we assume that I know about
| Atkin's, have done well on it, and have lost 40 lbs on it?
| Vegetables, yes, fruit, yes. Ok. Thanks. 😉
|
|| Did you ask your doctor *why* SB is preferred over Atkins? I mean,
|| other than their religious dogma? Most doctors misunderstand Atkins
|| (because most people don't follow it correctly) and, after the
|| initial extreme phases, there's really little difference between
|| Atkins and SB.
||
| South Beach does not purport to be low-carb. "Good carb" is their
| tagline. As I stated, I was planning on moving to a good carb plan of
| my own device once I reached my goal, but my doctor wants to check
| some blood test results by having me lay off the saturated fats.
| Granted, I could do this on an Atkin's type diet, but he requested
| South Beach. I have to replace those calories in my diet somehow and
| I believe he didn't want them all as protein, either. Anyway,
| there's more to dieting than Atkin's which is the reason for my
| question. I'm just researching the different mechanisms for weight
| loss.
|
|| Ketosis is not necessary. However, even Atkins sets up the diet so
|| that your only *barely* in ketosis (most people get this part wrong)
|| during the weight loss phase. IMHO ketosis helps you restrict your
|| calories, but as long as you avoid excessive insulin surges, most
|| people should be OK.
||
| I'm anxious to test this out. If I keep my insulin steady, I realize
| I won't have any cravings. I'm looking forward to the modified diet
| and the (hopefully) weight loss that goes along with it. I'm already
| exercising quite a bit, so I don't expect any major backslides.
|
| Thanks for your response,
| Mark

Mark McArthey wrote:
|| I've been on Atkin's for three months and done well. About 40 lbs
|| lost. I'm, obviously, very happy with that. Due to some health
|| issues, my doctor suggested moving to South Beach. ||
http://www.delorie.com/health/asdlc/

I'm curious about what health issues would require moving off of Atkins. On
Atkins cholesterol ratios generally improve, and triglyceride levels
dramatically plummet. IBS and acid reflux often go away; skin and hair
generally improve. Blood pressure decreases; and HbA1C decreases --
sometimes to normal levels -- in diabetics. Even mental health can improve
on Atkins including ameliroration of panic attacks, SADS and ADD.

I'm not trying to be contrary; I'm just genuinely curious about why your
doctor thinks that South Beach would be better. I know I'm off so many
medications for so many different health issues that I was on pre-Atkins
that it's amazing; I can't think of a health issue I had that would nor
worsen by going off of it.
--
Peter
Website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

"DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm just wondering what it was about Atkins that he dislikes, that he
asked you to change, rather than just saying something like "cut down
saturated fat" and letting you figure out how to do that.

He's doesn't dislike Atkins. In fact, he recommended it to me and still
speaks highly of it. I've been seeing him for a couple of years for Lyme
disease and my most recent visit resulted in some liver and heart issues.
He wants to clarify something with my liver and did recommend lower
saturated fats. He just happened to state that South Beach is a good route
to go to achieve that. He was trying to be helpful, I would guess.

Mark

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've been on Atkin's for three months and done well. About 40 lbs lost.
I'm, obviously, very happy with that. Due to some health issues, my doctor
suggested moving to South Beach.

At first I thought you meant that he told you to RELOCATE to South
Beach, FL, and I wondered what kind of medical condition would be
affected by living there :-)

--
Saffire
205/141/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

"Saffire" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've been on Atkin's for three months and done well. About 40 lbs
lost.
I'm, obviously, very happy with that. Due to some health issues, my
doctor
suggested moving to South Beach.

At first I thought you meant that he told you to RELOCATE to South
Beach, FL, and I wondered what kind of medical condition would be
affected by living there :-)

LOL I have to admit... that one had me fooled too🙂

O

Mark McArthey said:

He wants to clarify something with my liver

Given that your liver basically controls your metabolism, he probably
wants you out of ketosis for a while so he can run some liver function
comparisons. I'm not sure what tests would be sensitive to that,
though, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt here, that maybe
he's just being thorough.

LOL! That would be a great doctor. As long as he'd pay for it I could get
out of this lousy Wisconsin weather. 😉
Mark

"Saffire" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've been on Atkin's for three months and done well. About 40 lbs lost.
I'm, obviously, very happy with that. Due to some health issues, my
doctor
suggested moving to South Beach.

At first I thought you meant that he told you to RELOCATE to South
Beach, FL, and I wondered what kind of medical condition would be
affected by living there :-)

--
Saffire
205/141/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

What is the difference between keeping one's liver busy making ketones or
keeping ones liver busy converting carbs to fat?

"DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark McArthey said:

He wants to clarify something with my liver

Given that your liver basically controls your metabolism, he probably
wants you out of ketosis for a while so he can run some liver function
comparisons. I'm not sure what tests would be sensitive to that,
though, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt here, that maybe
he's just being thorough.

IMHO your doctor is leading you astray.

You may wish to read some of what the paleo diet folk say about grains.

http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html

At some point as you follow the road back to carbs, I expect your appetite
will increase. Three months from now will we be hearing about a stall?

The only problem I'm aware of with induction level carbs is the likelihood
of having low potassium. This can be supplemented.

"Mark McArthey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

"DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
....

Quoted message said:

There are no "no carb" diets. Even Atkins requires you to have a
minimum number of carbs, which ranges from 20g to 100g depending on

Not entirely true. It's rather easy to eat "no carbs"...it's just that it
would be pretty darn boring for most folks.

....

Quoted message said:

Ok, you go from no carbs right to grains? What happened to all the
fruits and vegetables you skipped over?

An excellent observation, DJ.

....

Quoted message said:

By eating fewer calories than you burn.

Exactly! A point that seems to escape most folks. Either eat less or burn
more...users call...

....

Quoted message said:

Did you ask your doctor *why* SB is preferred over Atkins? I mean,
other than their religious dogma? Most doctors misunderstand Atkins

Not just doctors, most folks walking around out there don't understand
Atkins. And, as you'd pointed out, for those on either end of that
discussion, it tends to be more closely aligned with (self-defined or
established) "religious" dogma than with factual information.

....

Quoted message said:

Ketosis is not necessary. However, even Atkins sets up the diet so

True enough.

Quoted message said:

during the weight loss phase. IMHO ketosis helps you restrict your
calories, but as long as you avoid excessive insulin surges, most

Not quite right. Ketosis is simply the result of being in a state in which
most of your energy is obtained from the metabolisation of stored fats.
This can be brought about by any number of events...such as avoiding carbs,
or in a more extreme case, not ingesting enough calorically substantive
material. For our purposes, it's just a convenient indicator...

BTW; because of how they're measured, "calories" are a rather poor indicator
of the actual food value of a material to a living organism. Unfortunately,
it's the most understood one that we have...

Dusty
San Jose, Ca.

Quoted message said:

people should be OK.

Cubit said:

What is the difference between keeping one's liver busy making
ketones or keeping ones liver busy converting carbs to fat?

The liver rarely converts carbs to fat; only when carbs alone provide
more calories than you need.

But given how complex the liver is, I can understand why a doctor
might want to repeat a set of tests in and out of ketosis just to be
sure of a diagnosis.

"Marengo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:mgEae.31447$d43.5303@lakeread03...

Quoted message said:

I'm curious about what health issues would require moving off of Atkins.

On

Quoted message said:

Atkins cholesterol ratios generally improve, and triglyceride levels
dramatically plummet. IBS and acid reflux often go away; skin and hair
generally improve. Blood pressure decreases; and HbA1C decreases --
sometimes to normal levels -- in diabetics. Even mental health can

improve

Quoted message said:

on Atkins including ameliroration of panic attacks, SADS and ADD.

Maybe elevated liver enzymes he wants to retest? What is the basic
difference between SB and Atkins? (I'm not really up on all the diets)
Ketosis? The order in which carby foods are added back after induction? Is
it mostly the type of fats? Maybe trading most fatty red meats and cheeses
for lots of fish and some chicken and make up the fats with nuts, avocados,
olives is what the dr is after?

--
No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes

Yet, I suspect the onset of most any illness could be the impetus to urging
a patient to abandon ketosis. So many of those who made progress with low
carb return to a carby way of eating. While the cause of abandoning low
carb, I suspect, is not the doctors, I feel the doctors do contribute to the
phenomenon.

"DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cubit said:

What is the difference between keeping one's liver busy making
ketones or keeping ones liver busy converting carbs to fat?

The liver rarely converts carbs to fat; only when carbs alone provide
more calories than you need.

But given how complex the liver is, I can understand why a doctor
might want to repeat a set of tests in and out of ketosis just to be
sure of a diagnosis.

Dusty Bleher said:

Quoted message said:

useful side effects if you do it that way.

Could you please elucidate some of those "useful side effects"?

Stable insulin levels, for starters ;-)

"DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dusty Bleher said:

Quoted message said:

useful side effects if you do it that way.

Could you please elucidate some of those "useful side effects"?

Stable insulin levels, for starters ;-)

Good point!

D.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

LOL! That would be a great doctor. As long as he'd pay for it I could get
out of this lousy Wisconsin weather. 😉
Mark

"Saffire" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've been on Atkin's for three months and done well. About 40 lbs lost.
I'm, obviously, very happy with that. Due to some health issues, my
doctor
suggested moving to South Beach.

At first I thought you meant that he told you to RELOCATE to South
Beach, FL, and I wondered what kind of medical condition would be
affected by living there :-)

Well, if he PRESCRIBED it, perhaps your insurance company would cover
it :-)

--
Saffire
205/141/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333