Insurance

If you are leading a group, and it doesn't matter who they are, you
have a "duty of care".

If you fail to carry out your duties and someone gets injured as result
of your instructions/decisions you leave yourself open to be sued.

It is not necessary to have insurance but it protects your property if
you do have Civil Liability Insurance, which unfortunately is
expensive. Before you can obtain insurance you need to carry out a
'Risk Assessment'.

The Insurance Compnay I use is Perkins Slade in Birmingham.

Insurance Companies that are prepared to insure you for this type of
activity are few and far between.

www.caledoniahilltreks.com

"If you fail to carry out your duties and someone gets injured as
result of your instructions/decisions you leave yourself open to be
sued."

Is it possible to get group members to sign a document stating they are
aware of the risks and therefore forego the right to sue?"

In message <[email hidden]>

Quoted post said:

"If you fail to carry out your duties and someone gets injured as
result of your instructions/decisions you leave yourself open to be
sued."

Is it possible to get group members to sign a document stating they are
aware of the risks and therefore forego the right to sue?"

Yes but it isn't worth the paper it is written on. The duty of care is
one that can't be removed and so even if someone signed such a piece of
paper they could still sue after the fact. It is written into law for
very good reason for example so as to prevent an employer from failing
to care for the safety of their employees by attempting to place them
under contract not to sue.

The only impact that such a document might have, is it might be used as
evidence to argue for a reduction in the size of compensation if the
person acknowledged some personal risk assessment. However the duty of
third party care still remains.

--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

I run a work based walking club at work - we use the same approach - it's
part of the club joining requirements for new members to accept the
associated risks and liability.

We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most of the
budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

After all - we figure we never force anyone to join, and they should accept
a degree of responsibility for their involvement and actions.

Sort of like dealing with grown-ups
;-)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"If you fail to carry out your duties and someone gets injured as
result of your instructions/decisions you leave yourself open to be
sued."

Is it possible to get group members to sign a document stating they are
aware of the risks and therefore forego the right to sue?"

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

I run a work based walking club at work - we use the same approach - it's
part of the club joining requirements for new members to accept the
associated risks and liability.

But it doesn't absolve you of a duty of care.

Quoted message said:

We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
club.

Quoted message said:

After all - we figure we never force anyone to join, and they should
accept a degree of responsibility for their involvement and actions.

That is true, but it still doesn't absolve you of all risks associated
with 3rd party liabilities or a duty of care.

--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Got any reference website suggestions for this Mike?
If i go back with this i suspect it's reopening a huge can of worms, and
potential closure of the club
<gulp>

"Mike Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

I run a work based walking club at work - we use the same approach -

it's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

part of the club joining requirements for new members to accept the
associated risks and liability.

But it doesn't absolve you of a duty of care.

Quoted message said:

We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
club.

Quoted message said:

After all - we figure we never force anyone to join, and they should
accept a degree of responsibility for their involvement and actions.

That is true, but it still doesn't absolve you of all risks associated
with 3rd party liabilities or a duty of care.

--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Mike Clark said:

Quoted message said:

We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
club.

Isn't that a different issue? Third-party liability comes into play if, for
example, a member of the group leaves a farm gate insecure, allowing stock
out onto the road causing an accident. Several organisations (Ramblers is
one) offer group insurance against such risks. Insurance against the group
being sued by its own members is an altogether trickier proposition.
--
Dave

"Mike Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

I run a work based walking club at work - we use the same approach - it's
part of the club joining requirements for new members to accept the
associated risks and liability.

But it doesn't absolve you of a duty of care.

Quoted message said:

We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
club.

Quoted message said:

After all - we figure we never force anyone to join, and they should
accept a degree of responsibility for their involvement and actions.

That is true, but it still doesn't absolve you of all risks associated
with 3rd party liabilities or a duty of care.

Mike, sorry to put this onto you, as you're clearly not a lawyer from your
sig, but do you know how this would affect any uk.rec.walking expedition?

For example, just by offering to organise the campsite, would this also
constitute a duty of care? Also the uk.rec.walking day out - how is this
affected?

Jhimmy.

In message <[email hidden]>

Dave Pickles said:

Mike Clark said:

Quoted message said:

We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
club.

Isn't that a different issue? Third-party liability comes into play if, for
example, a member of the group leaves a farm gate insecure, allowing stock
out onto the road causing an accident. Several organisations (Ramblers is
one) offer group insurance against such risks. Insurance against the group
being sued by its own members is an altogether trickier proposition.

Both risks carry a liability on members of the Club. If somebody decides
to sue, whether they are in the club or a party outside of the club,
then most lawyers would advise suing a party which has the resources to
pay compensation in the result that the claim is successful. So if the
members of the club have assets then they are potential targets for
litigation. This affects all clubs, and is the reason that some go for
incorporation with limited liability so as to limit the risks only to
loss of club fees. But this option is not easily available to smaller
clubs and societies.

--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

"most lawyers would advise suing a party which has the resources to pay
compensation in the result that the claim is successful"

Just about sums up the "cotton-wool","sue" culture we appear to have
adopted from the other side of the pond!!

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

Got any reference website suggestions for this Mike?
If i go back with this i suspect it's reopening a huge can of worms, and
potential closure of the club
<gulp>

My knowledge comes from the complications my local Cambridge Caving and
Climbing Club has encountered by being active in both sports. We have
had to insure all members for member liabilities for both activities
even where the members only participate in one of them

see

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/clubs/cins.htm

and especially

http://british-caving.org.uk/bca/insurance/04C0076_Club_insurance.pdf

Mike
--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

"However the duty of third party care still remains."

What about that young girl who died following her boyfirend on Ben
Nevis over the weekend?
Can her family sue him?

thanks mike - i'd better get reading

"Mike Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>

Bryan Hall said:

Got any reference website suggestions for this Mike?
If i go back with this i suspect it's reopening a huge can of worms, and
potential closure of the club
<gulp>

My knowledge comes from the complications my local Cambridge Caving and
Climbing Club has encountered by being active in both sports. We have
had to insure all members for member liabilities for both activities
even where the members only participate in one of them

see

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/clubs/cins.htm

and especially

http://british-caving.org.uk/bca/insurance/04C0076_Club_insurance.pdf

Mike
--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open

Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look at
some alternatives.

One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about affiliation to a
national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club members.
The Ramblers was mentioned - but I can't see anything about club affiliation
(or insurance for that matter)

Anyone else been here and found a way out?

"Bryan Hall" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

thanks mike - i'd better get reading

Bryan Hall said:

Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open

Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look at
some alternatives.

One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about affiliation to
a national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club members.
The Ramblers was mentioned - but I can't see anything about club
affiliation (or insurance for that matter)

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/info/organisers/leading.html#Insurance
--
Dave

In article <[email hidden]>, Bryan Hall
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open

Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look at
some alternatives.

One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about affiliation to a
national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club members.

That is what happens with clubs affiliated to the BMC.

Their page on liability is here:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/clubs/guide6.htm

I don't know how much club affiliation costs but expect it is based on
the number of members. You may also find it entitles club members to
discounts with retailers.

If I were you I would give them a ring or email them to find out more

BMC
177-179 Burton Road Manchester,
M20 2BB,
UK
T: 0870 010 4878
F: 0161 445 4500
E: [email hidden]

--

Dominic Sexton

Mike you have clarified my initial point of 'duty of care'.

The bottom line is that it is up to the Courts to decide what your duty
of care is and in my case it is to my clients. However clients have
to accept some responsibility for their actions as hill walking is an
activity that you may become injured as a result of your own actions.

If they are injured as a result of me giving them incorrect information
or instruction I am liable to be sued, hence the need for insurance.

Your point about signing a bit of paper is also correct as a good
lawyer will argue the point.

As for Club members or a group of friends going out there has to be an
agreement that it is a joint walk with no person in charge (difficult
to show in court) and that everyone has equal responsibility.

You should bear in mind that in the worst scenario it may be the
relative of someone who has been killed that is suing you and he or she
doesn't know about all these agreements or is not interested as they
need the cash to survive without their loved one.

There are obviously a lot of loop holes in what I have said but it is
better to err on the safe side and have insurance.

I know it costs a fortune, as I have to pay a substanial fee every
year, but better that than loosing everything I have worked for.

www.caledoniahilltreks.com

In message <[email hidden]>

Quoted post said:

"most lawyers would advise suing a party which has the resources to pay
compensation in the result that the claim is successful"

Just about sums up the "cotton-wool","sue" culture we appear to have
adopted from the other side of the pond!!

Yes but mixed in with those who are only potential gold diggers there
are genuine cases of negligence leading to an injury and the same rule
still applies, it isn't worth suing somebody that has no assets even if
you are in the right.

--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

"even if you are in the right."

That last part of the sentence is the issue with my views on the
matter.

It's not about right or wrong, if you take part in any non-work
activity it's of your own volition. Even being 'led' by an 'expert'
risk can't be eliminated. Just because the leader advocates a
particular path, action, etc, it is surely still within the individual
to make a judgement????? We're only human after all, we all make
mistakes....or was that a line by Human League????