Joutsen

dave said:

With globalization being what it is and that, is that even a reasonable
claim to be making? Everyone on the web seems pretty evasive on the
subject, except vegetarians, who would have me buy a Cat's Meow and lump
the extra 300g..

I've ceased to be a veggie now, having reverted to carnivorous behaviour
formally about 15 months ago, but while I was veggie ('89 - '04) I used
down bags and spent quite a lot of time recommending them. And I
continue to recommend them as I think that for many applications they're
just plain better.

Onto the live-plucked down, I would /guess/ (not the emphasis that it's
a guess) that they just use what they use and marketing have decided to
make a virtue out of something nobody really paid much attention to from
a technical standpoint. ICBW.

Onto a bag, depends what you mean by "3 season" and how cold you sleep,
but outside of winter I'd probably go for a Rab Q400, which would be a
bit lighter than the bags you mention. My other half has a Q600 which
is very well made and toasty enough to use all through the winter.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

dave said:

Hi, I'm new round here. G'evening!

Has anyone here got any experience of or prejudices about Joutsen's down
sleeping bags? I'm considering the Joutsen 1000 as an alternative to a
ME Lightline Ultra, or similar, as a reasonably lightweight three-season
bag for weekend solo trips up north. It seems pretty much equivalent but
a bit lighter at 1090g, and (and this may sound silly but I'm a
squeamish nonvegetarian) Joutsen boast about not using any live-plucked
down in their bags.

With globalization being what it is and that, is that even a reasonable
claim to be making? Everyone on the web seems pretty evasive on the
subject, except vegetarians, who would have me buy a Cat's Meow and lump
the extra 300g..

It has never occurred to me that down would be taken from anything other
than dead ducks, if only because it's surely much easier that way? Call
me Mr Cynical but this might just be exaggerated promotion. For
example, some US poultry suppliers market their chicken as "no hormones
and no steroids added". The US Dept of Agriculture, however, have
banned these in all poultry products, but the implication remains that
maybe other chickens _do_ have these added.

Colin

Peter Clinch said:

Onto the live-plucked down, I would /guess/ (not the emphasis that it's
a guess) that they just use what they use and marketing have decided to
make a virtue out of something nobody really paid much attention to from
a technical standpoint. ICBW.

Well, Joutsen use Arctic geese where Rab etc. use Eastern European
geese. The live plucking thing seems to be most common in Hungary and
maybe Poland, but nobody has any figures. PHD kind of assume they're
dead in their facts about down, but in more of a "nobody really paid
much attention" sense than any other. Maybe I should ask them.

Quoted message said:

Onto a bag, depends what you mean by "3 season" and how cold you sleep

I feel cold fairly easily (today is the first day this year I'd go
outside with only a T-shirt on, and it's 31 degrees!) so I expect to
need a fair bit of insulation. Although I'm not planning on camping in
Scotland in deep winter, I'd hope to be able to go out in a little snow
and not worry too much.

Quoted message said:

but outside of winter I'd probably go for a Rab Q400, which would be a
bit lighter than the bags you mention. My other half has a Q600 which
is very well made and toasty enough to use all through the winter.

....And 50% more expensive...

dave said:

(today is the first day this year I'd go
outside with only a T-shirt on, and it's 31 degrees!)

On reflection, I exaggerate. But I'm pretty sure I sleep cold.

dave said:

I feel cold fairly easily (today is the first day this year I'd go
outside with only a T-shirt on, and it's 31 degrees!)

Well, if that's 31 C then I wonder where you are, and if it's 31 F then
you're doing pretty well in just a T and I also wonder where you are...

If you're thinking you want more insulation then I'd look at things with
550g+ of premium fill (the old model Lightline has this, I use one all
through the winter but am a reasonably average sleeper in terms of hot
and cold, AFAICT). I've had it hit -7 C valley camping in April, with
clear skies and a deep frost, so it /can/ get pretty chilly.

Quoted message said:

...And 50% more expensive...

Thou gettest what thou shalt pay for :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Well, if that's 31 C then I wonder where you are, and if it's 31 F then
you're doing pretty well in just a T and I also wonder where you are...

London :-)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4586029.stm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...And 50% more expensive...

Thou gettest what thou shalt pay for :-(

I suppose. Quite surprised how completely unknown Joutsen seem to be
here though. They seem fairly well used in Germany/scandinavia, but I
can't read Finnish so can't tell whether people are commending or
complaining.

dave said:

I suppose. Quite surprised how completely unknown Joutsen seem to be
here though. They seem fairly well used in Germany/scandinavia, but I
can't read Finnish so can't tell whether people are commending or
complaining.

It's not /that/ surprising. Most markets have established local
companies, and for folk to sell overseas they have to give something
that local brands don't that makes the extra faff of export/import worth
it. Feathered Friends are some of the best regarded bags in N. America,
but they're not available here. You can get Western Mountaineering from
time to time, but you have to hunt. Wandering around Norway, it's clear
that Bergans and Fjellraven are well respected brands, but I've never
seen their stuff here. On the opposite track, I've yet to see ME stuff
in the Netherlands, despite pretty extensive perusal of the shops in
Amsterdam and Den Haag, and it's not like they only make rubbish...
There aren't many outdoor brands that are truly global, or even pan
European.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Colin MacDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

dave said:

Hi, I'm new round here. G'evening!

Has anyone here got any experience of or prejudices about Joutsen's down
sleeping bags? I'm considering the Joutsen 1000 as an alternative to a
ME Lightline Ultra, or similar, as a reasonably lightweight three-season
bag for weekend solo trips up north. It seems pretty much equivalent but
a bit lighter at 1090g, and (and this may sound silly but I'm a
squeamish nonvegetarian) Joutsen boast about not using any live-plucked
down in their bags.

With globalization being what it is and that, is that even a reasonable
claim to be making? Everyone on the web seems pretty evasive on the
subject, except vegetarians, who would have me buy a Cat's Meow and lump
the extra 300g..

It has never occurred to me that down would be taken from anything other
than dead ducks, if only because it's surely much easier that way?

I believe the Duck /Goose plucker starts off with a live bird, he initially
fills a bag marked "Down for the average punter"! When the plucking causes
the bird to die he then starts to fill the bag marked "Down destined for
pinko veggie stooges with animal welfare issues" Thus keeping everyone
happy!

personally I would go for this type of sleeping bag,
http://www.bdog.wanadoo.co.uk/lidlsack.jpg this bird filling will not only
keep you warm under any circumstances, but if trained properly, it will
carry your rucksack, prepare your food and keep your socks fragrant!

PS. In all seriousness though, I have just picked up one of these silk
liners from Lidls, excellent value for £9.99. Just the job for hut to hut
stuff in the alps!

Stuart said:

personally I would go for this type of sleeping bag,
http://www.bdog.wanadoo.co.uk/lidlsack.jpg this bird filling will not only
keep you warm under any circumstances, but if trained properly, it will
carry your rucksack, prepare your food and keep your socks fragrant!

....and it's mummy shaped? Is there something you'd like to tell us?