calif. referendum will make biking on sidewalk legal, we need endorsement

Biking on a sidewalk is a bad idea, which is why so many local
ordinances prohibit it.

--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)

noveltransit said:

of your organization.
Please write, website

Hopefully any organisation influential enough to count will have more
sense than to vote for something as dangerous as sidewalk cycling.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Just zis Guy said:

Hopefully any organisation influential enough to count will have more
sense than to vote for something as dangerous as sidewalk cycling.

Guy

It seems to me that legalized sidewalk cycling might produce enough
negative reaction to set cycling advocacy WAAAAY back in California...

This is just a bad idea.

Just zis Guy said:

Hopefully any organisation influential enough to count will have more
sense than to vote for something as dangerous as sidewalk cycling.

Guy

My state (Colorado) allows sidewalk cycling except where prohibited by local
ordinance. Colorado does require sidewalk cyclists to yield to pedestrians
and use crosswalks, and gives sidewalk cyclists the same rights and
responsibilities as pedestrians. Colorado law also gives cyclists using the
roadway the same rights and responsibilities as motor vehicles, and allows
cyclists to use the roadway whether or not there is a bicycle path next to
the roadway. I think this is a very sensible approach to the matter.
--
mark

mark said:

My state (Colorado) allows sidewalk cycling except where prohibited by local
ordinance. Colorado does require sidewalk cyclists to yield to pedestrians
and use crosswalks, and gives sidewalk cyclists the same rights and
responsibilities as pedestrians. Colorado law also gives cyclists using the
roadway the same rights and responsibilities as motor vehicles, and allows
cyclists to use the roadway whether or not there is a bicycle path next to
the roadway. I think this is a very sensible approach to the matter.

So you might: I don't. Sidewalk cycling in general reduces the risk
of a rare kind of collision at the expense of increasing the risk of a
much more common one; I don't think encouraging people to ride on the
sidewalk does anyone any favours.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On 3 Jun 2005 20:54:11 +0950, Baka Dasai <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

BUT, what if allowing sidewalk cycling has the effect of increasing the
number of people who cycle for transport?

Free training courses would do the same, and with collateral benefits
in reduced injuries. This is, IMO, better than pandering to the false
idea that sidewalk cycling is "safer" (which is why they do it).

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote

Quoted message said:

So you might: I don't. Sidewalk cycling in general reduces the risk
of a rare kind of collision at the expense of increasing the risk of a
much more common one; I don't think encouraging people to ride on the
sidewalk does anyone any favours.

Guy

I assume that by "rare kind of collision" you mean car/bicycle collisions,
and by "a much more common one" you mean bicycle/pedestrian collisions. I
agree that a competent cyclist who obeys the traffic laws is at very minimal
risk of being hit by a car. That's why I ride in the roadway most of the
time. I would not expect small children, novice cyclists, or physically
unfit/infirm cyclists to cycle the way I do, which is why I would like to
see those people have the option of cycling on the sidewalk.

I'm aware that pedestrians can be seriously injured or killed by a fast
moving cyclist. This is why CO law requires sidewalk cyclists to yield to
pedestrians, and this is why municipalities have the option of banning
sidewalk cycling where appropriate.
--
mark

mark said:

Quoted message said:

Sidewalk cycling in general reduces the risk
of a rare kind of collision at the expense of increasing the risk of a
much more common one; I don't think encouraging people to ride on the
sidewalk does anyone any favours.

Quoted message said:

I assume that by "rare kind of collision" you mean car/bicycle collisions,
and by "a much more common one" you mean bicycle/pedestrian collisions.

No. The rare type of collision they reduce is being hit form behind.
The common type of collision they make worse is being hit at a
junction.

Quoted message said:

I would not expect small children, novice cyclists, or physically
unfit/infirm cyclists to cycle the way I do, which is why I would like to
see those people have the option of cycling on the sidewalk.

My children have been riding on the road from the age of about six
years, and although sidewalk cycling is generally banned here the ban
is not enforced against children (they are in any case below the age
of criminal responsibility). I have great trouble thinking of any
situation where an adult is better on the sidewalk - or rather, where
that is a better solution than fixing the problem they are running
away from.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Just zis Guy said:

mark said:

Quoted message said:

Sidewalk cycling in general reduces the risk
of a rare kind of collision at the expense of increasing the risk of a
much more common one; I don't think encouraging people to ride on the
sidewalk does anyone any favours.

Quoted message said:

I assume that by "rare kind of collision" you mean car/bicycle
collisions, and by "a much more common one" you mean bicycle/pedestrian
collisions.

No. The rare type of collision they reduce is being hit form behind.
The common type of collision they make worse is being hit at a
junction.

Quoted message said:

I would not expect small children, novice cyclists, or physically
unfit/infirm cyclists to cycle the way I do, which is why I would like
to see those people have the option of cycling on the sidewalk.

My children have been riding on the road from the age of about six
years, and although sidewalk cycling is generally banned here the ban
is not enforced against children (they are in any case below the age
of criminal responsibility). I have great trouble thinking of any
situation where an adult is better on the sidewalk - or rather, where
that is a better solution than fixing the problem they are running
away from.

This is just an anecdote, but yesterday when I was walking home I witnessed
a boy of about 7 come inches from being hit by a car -- he was riding
happily along the sidewalk, and a car pulled out of a hidden driveway right
in front of him, and braked just barely in time. The boy appeared to be
oblivious, but I (and likely the driver) were somewhat shaken up.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

Just zis Guy said:

mark said:

Quoted message said:

Sidewalk cycling in general reduces the risk
of a rare kind of collision at the expense of increasing the risk of a
much more common one; I don't think encouraging people to ride on the
sidewalk does anyone any favours.

Quoted message said:

I assume that by "rare kind of collision" you mean car/bicycle collisions,
and by "a much more common one" you mean bicycle/pedestrian collisions.

No. The rare type of collision they reduce is being hit form behind.
The common type of collision they make worse is being hit at a
junction.

Quoted message said:

I would not expect small children, novice cyclists, or physically
unfit/infirm cyclists to cycle the way I do, which is why I would like to
see those people have the option of cycling on the sidewalk.

My children have been riding on the road from the age of about six
years, and although sidewalk cycling is generally banned here the ban
is not enforced against children (they are in any case below the age
of criminal responsibility). I have great trouble thinking of any
situation where an adult is better on the sidewalk - or rather, where
that is a better solution than fixing the problem they are running
away from.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

I agree. Riding on sidewalks is a bad idea for adults or children. The
only thing that scares me worse is is having a cyclist riding on the
road going the wrong way. Usually that person is on a bike 8 sizes too
small and smoking so there is a whole constellation of bad thinking
going on.

Friends, nobody is advocating "wild" sidepath biking. Go to the website
to see images of 70 year old Japanese briskly cycling with people on
the sidewalk. The referendum will provide separation rules and passing
rules, and provide sharp penalites for people who "act out" by cycling
past footpassengers at high speeds, which is unfortunately a common
occurrence. Also, bells or small horns will be required. No walker will
have to experience the "coming up on your right" shout followed by
something streaking past them at 30mph. This development is absolutely
necessary to move to novel transit systems requiring 2 miles+ travel to
the system.

Many potential bicyclists are very afraid of the tiny error a busy
driver on a cell phone could make, injuring them severely. Therefore,
they don't ride to transit stations. Personal transit devices like
scooters are also constantly improving and are becoming more viable as
local vehicles. The entire sidewalk structure has to be brought up to
par.

http://www.generaltransit.com

It doesn't seem like you like the response of cyclists. I have no idea
why you advocate for this and I'll assume that your intentions are
good. But I think that you find that a large majority of the active
cycling population disagrees with your idea.
Speaking only for myself-- I have much less fear of a driver on a cell
phone causing me to be in an accident than of I do of a pedestrian with
headphones.

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:17:31 -0700, Benjamin Lewis <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

This is just an anecdote, but yesterday when I was walking home I witnessed
a boy of about 7 come inches from being hit by a car -- he was riding
happily along the sidewalk, and a car pulled out of a hidden driveway right
in front of him, and braked just barely in time. The boy appeared to be
oblivious, but I (and likely the driver) were somewhat shaken up.

Yes, it's just an anecdote - but it's precisely the kind of thing that
happens!

A friend of mine has collected some data:
http://www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/infra/infra.html

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On 3 Jun 2005 09:30:58 -0700, "gds" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I agree. Riding on sidewalks is a bad idea for adults or children. The
only thing that scares me worse is is having a cyclist riding on the
road going the wrong way. Usually that person is on a bike 8 sizes too
small and smoking so there is a whole constellation of bad thinking
going on.

LOL! I can picture it now. Over here they'd be wearing a Burberry
baseball cap and wearing jeans five sizes too big and hanging off
their arses. We call 'em chavs.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Just zis Guy said:

On 3 Jun 2005 09:30:58 -0700, "gds" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I agree. Riding on sidewalks is a bad idea for adults or children. The
only thing that scares me worse is is having a cyclist riding on the
road going the wrong way. Usually that person is on a bike 8 sizes too
small and smoking so there is a whole constellation of bad thinking
going on.

LOL! I can picture it now. Over here they'd be wearing a Burberry
baseball cap and wearing jeans five sizes too big and hanging off
their arses. We call 'em chavs.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Interesting negative correlation between pants size and bike size :-)
Now that's a subject for study.

Just zis Guy said:

On 3 Jun 2005 09:30:58 -0700, "gds" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I agree. Riding on sidewalks is a bad idea for adults or children. The
only thing that scares me worse is is having a cyclist riding on the
road going the wrong way. Usually that person is on a bike 8 sizes too
small and smoking so there is a whole constellation of bad thinking
going on.

LOL! I can picture it now. Over here they'd be wearing a Burberry
baseball cap and wearing jeans five sizes too big and hanging off
their arses. We call 'em chavs.

And wearing dark denim, riding at night and balancing a case of 24
bottles of beer on the handlebars. Thank heavens for the cigarette:
The glow showed me where he was.

John Kane
Kingston On

Quoted message said:

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

"gds" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I agree. Riding on sidewalks is a bad idea for adults or children.
The only thing that scares me worse is is having a cyclist riding
on the road going the wrong way.

Oh Billeee, where are you?

gds said:

It doesn't seem like you like the response of cyclists. I have no idea
why you advocate for this and I'll assume that your intentions are
good. But I think that you find that a large majority of the active
cycling population disagrees with your idea.
Speaking only for myself-- I have much less fear of a driver on a cell
phone causing me to be in an accident than of I do of a pedestrian with
headphones.

The City of Toronto did a study of cycling accidents. A quote from the
abstract reads
"Almost 30% of the cyclists were cycling on the sidewalk immediately
prior to their collisions. In many of these incidents, the motorist
either failed to stop before crossing the stop bar (at controlled
intersections) or sidewalk (at driveways and lanes), or proceeded
forward after stopping, into the path of an on-coming cyclist. The
combination of cyclists riding through crosswalks from the sidewalk and
drivers "rolling through" stop signs appears to have contributed to
a significant number of collisions."
http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/bicycle_motor-vehicle/index.htm

This does not say good things about sidewalk cycling.

Benjamin Lewis said:

This is just an anecdote, but yesterday when I was walking home I
witnessed a boy of about 7 come inches from being hit by a car -- he
was riding happily along the sidewalk, and a car pulled out of a
hidden driveway right in front of him, and braked just barely in
time. The boy appeared to be oblivious, but I (and likely the
driver) were somewhat shaken up.

"Barely in time" to your nervous old eyes maybe, but the kid was probably
completely in control, which is why he was unfazed.

"I'm cold, put on a sweater!"

Matt O.