Calories, long rides, eating and absorbtion

Quoted message said:

So my question is, is it possible for me to consume and absorb close to
as many calories as I use while riding? An upcoming 540km ride will
hopefully take me about 18-19 hours and I guess I will use at least
10,000 calories. That's over 500 per hour. Is there any point in trying
to sqeeze in 500 calories per hour while riding? Or will this just
cause problems and not be absorbed and be a hassle and waste?

If you can do 540km in 18-19 hr, you should be telling us what to eat,
not asking.

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/nutrition.html

Robert Chung said:

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/nutrition.html

BTW, on that page is a story about Nexium. There is an interesting history
to that drug: see
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?041025crat_atlarge

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions on what/how much to eat? I must be self contained and I
don't want to carry around a huge amount of stuff, so my inclination at
this point is to go with water and slightly salted honey in a very
thick goo in one bottle and try to ration it out over the ride.

For endurance type riding, think more of eating starchy type food than
sugar. You need carbohydrates that are absorbed at a slow, constant
rate. Some of the commercial, liquid mixed, preparations, contain
maltodextrin, a long chain carbohydrate. It's the same stuff in gel
packettes. For real food, think about stuff like bagels, cookies, and
other breadstuffs. You can effectively replenish 350 calories/hr. If
you're exercising vigorously, digestion is slow because the necessary
blood for the digestive process is in your legs. Lots of what you eat
will just go through you. Peanut butter would be a food that isn't so
easy to digest. The sugar part of it is but the nut part isn't.

In addition to your estimated 500 calories/hr for exercise, you'll
need ~150 calories/hr for BMR.

I do some long riding and my weight isn't far from yours. You have to
eat plenty but don't have to stuff yourself. Your training and
condition will be a large factor in satisfactory completion of your
ordeal. Individual differences are great in feeding an athlete.

I'm recently retired from 31 years in the nutrition field and can now
give away free advice. I don't know how good free is.

Paul Kopit <http://www.caltriplecrown.com/Fame.htm#PK>

Peter Cole said:

If you can do 540km in 18-19 hr, you should be telling us what to eat,
not asking.

We'll see if I can do it! But 19 hours hardly puts me in the category
of one to give advice on such matters. I will be at LEAST four or five
hours slower than the leaders.

I wonder what they eat?

Joseph

Robert Chung said:

Robert Chung said:

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/nutrition.html

BTW, on that page is a story about Nexium. There is an interesting history
to that drug: see
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?041025crat_atlarge

Thanks for the links Robert. Pretty soon I'm going to have to start
referring to you as my personal trainer!

Joseph

Paul Kopit said:

For endurance type riding, think more of eating starchy type food than
sugar. You need carbohydrates that are absorbed at a slow, constant
rate. Some of the commercial, liquid mixed, preparations, contain
maltodextrin, a long chain carbohydrate. It's the same stuff in gel
packettes. For real food, think about stuff like bagels, cookies, and
other breadstuffs. You can effectively replenish 350 calories/hr. If

Is this 350 per hour a tailored guestimate for my size, or a gerneral
rule of thumb for all people? Does this mean that were I to consume
more than 350 per hour it would just "sit in the pipe" til the
absorbtion of the previous 350 was complete, or would it be wasted?

Quoted message said:

you're exercising vigorously, digestion is slow because the necessary
blood for the digestive process is in your legs. Lots of what you eat
will just go through you. Peanut butter would be a food that isn't so
easy to digest. The sugar part of it is but the nut part isn't.

In addition to your estimated 500 calories/hr for exercise, you'll
need ~150 calories/hr for BMR.

I assue I will need much more than 500, but the idea was only to limit
the deficit in a way. Would peanut butter be wasted, or just long to be
absorbed? The reason I would like to use it is it is compact in size
related to number of calories, as is honey. A couple of PB sandwiches
and a waterbottle full of honey would be a lot of easily transported
calories.

I wonder if camelback makes a "bagel magazine" to carry 19 bagels...

Quoted message said:

I'm recently retired from 31 years in the nutrition field and can now
give away free advice. I don't know how good free is.

Free as in speech, or free as in beer? ;-)

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Howdy,

For long rides I usually have one bottle of water and one bottle with a
juice/water mix. Sometimes I add honey and salt to the mixed bottle on
longer rides.

For rides over 200km I am concerned about "bonking" so I am trying to
figure out a way to estimate my eating needs, and planning a way to
meet these needs. Trial and error is not very efficient for this.

It's hard to estimate calories for a given ride, but suffice it to say
it will be a lot. I am over 100kg.

So my question is, is it possible for me to consume and absorb close to
as many calories as I use while riding? An upcoming 540km ride will
hopefully take me about 18-19 hours and I guess I will use at least
10,000 calories. That's over 500 per hour. Is there any point in trying
to sqeeze in 500 calories per hour while riding? Or will this just
cause problems and not be absorbed and be a hassle and waste?

Well, consider that 10,000 calories is about five and a half pounds of
sugar. Now ask yourself if it makes sense to try and replace calorie
for calorie during your ride. If you have support, you could try
drinking two cans of coke or pepsi per hour. You might want to let
them go a bit flat first.

Robert Chung said:

Robert Chung said:

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/nutrition.html

BTW, on that page is a story about Nexium. There is an interesting history
to that drug: see
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?041025crat_atlarge

All true, but they left out the the interesting story of how AZ and
others use deep discounts to hospitals or certain drugs to get
patients switched over from equivelant but cheaper drugs. Their
pricing structure is such that the more expensive drugs are often
cheaper for the hospital to purchase than the cheaper drugs. They
make it cheaper to give a hospitalized patient, say, Nexium rather
than Prilosec. If you do write for Prilosec in the hospital you will
likely get a call from the pharmacist saying: "Hey, why don't you give
him Nexium instead?" The end result is that through a form of
inertia, the patient goes home on Nexium instead of Prilosec. A
ruthless bait and switch which has been very profitable for the drug
companies.

Jim Smith said:

Robert Chung said:

BTW, on that page is a story about Nexium. There is an interesting
history to that drug: see
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?041025crat_atlarge

All true, but they left out the the interesting story of how AZ and
others use deep discounts to hospitals or certain drugs to get
patients switched over from equivelant but cheaper drugs. Their
pricing structure is such that the more expensive drugs are often
cheaper for the hospital to purchase than the cheaper drugs. They
make it cheaper to give a hospitalized patient, say, Nexium rather
than Prilosec. If you do write for Prilosec in the hospital you will
likely get a call from the pharmacist saying: "Hey, why don't you give
him Nexium instead?" The end result is that through a form of
inertia, the patient goes home on Nexium instead of Prilosec. A
ruthless bait and switch which has been very profitable for the drug
companies.

I thought this was interesting.
http://slate.com/id/2119712

Jim Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Howdy,

For long rides I usually have one bottle of water and one bottle with a
juice/water mix. Sometimes I add honey and salt to the mixed bottle on
longer rides.

For rides over 200km I am concerned about "bonking" so I am trying to
figure out a way to estimate my eating needs, and planning a way to
meet these needs. Trial and error is not very efficient for this.

It's hard to estimate calories for a given ride, but suffice it to say
it will be a lot. I am over 100kg.

So my question is, is it possible for me to consume and absorb close to
as many calories as I use while riding? An upcoming 540km ride will
hopefully take me about 18-19 hours and I guess I will use at least
10,000 calories. That's over 500 per hour. Is there any point in trying
to sqeeze in 500 calories per hour while riding? Or will this just
cause problems and not be absorbed and be a hassle and waste?

Well, consider that 10,000 calories is about five and a half pounds of
sugar. Now ask yourself if it makes sense to try and replace calorie
for calorie during your ride. If you have support, you could try
drinking two cans of coke or pepsi per hour. You might want to let
them go a bit flat first.

Replacing the entire 10,000+ is not practical. I don't have support for
this ride. The ride arrangers have food stations about every 50-60km
with bananas, sports drinks, and bread with margarine and jam or
margarine and salami. I will eat some bananas and drink the sports
drink but I have to steer clear of the margarine. Last time I
participated all the food at the stations was prepared in advance, so
there was no way for me to just get some plain bread. I cannot digest
lactose and my experience with margarine wich often has lactose on
rides around here has been very unpleasant to put it mildly. This is
why I have such an emphasis on being self-sufficient. There are
gas-stations along the way with all the usual candy and cookies and
soft drinks, but that stuff doesn't really agree with me and I don't
want to stop more than 5 times anyway.

Joseph

Paul Kopit said:

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions on what/how much to eat? I must be self contained and I
don't want to carry around a huge amount of stuff, so my inclination at
this point is to go with water and slightly salted honey in a very
thick goo in one bottle and try to ration it out over the ride.

For endurance type riding, think more of eating starchy type food than
sugar. You need carbohydrates that are absorbed at a slow, constant
rate. Some of the commercial, liquid mixed, preparations, contain
maltodextrin, a long chain carbohydrate. It's the same stuff in gel
packettes.

I read an article a couple of months ago about the glycemic index of
different foods. Surprisingly, there were quite a few complex carbs
that had the same glycemic index as raw sugar. Also interesting, pasta
had a relatively low glycemic index, and the index of "al dente" pasta
was lower than the index of mushy pasta. Apparently some types of
complex carbs are changed to sugar so easily that for all intents and
purposes they should be treated as simple carbs. My conclusion was that
absorption rate has more to do with digestibility than it does with
whether the carb is simple or complex.

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

If you can do 540km in 18-19 hr, you should be telling us what to eat,
not asking.

We'll see if I can do it! But 19 hours hardly puts me in the category
of one to give advice on such matters. I will be at LEAST four or five
hours slower than the leaders.

I wonder what they eat?

I agree with Mr. Cole. If you can do 540 km in 19 hours elapsed time,
then you have to already know what you can eat and not eat on ultra
cycling events. At this pace you are gong to almost qualify for RAAM.
Which I think is over 400 miles in 24 hours. At 540 km (335 miles) in
19 hours, you would be at about 400 miles total in 24 hours. You may
be 4-5 hours slower than the leader. But that is because the leader is
one of the very few people on earth who can ride 500 miles in 24 hours.

I think its almost universal that the ultra marathon cyclists use a
drink mix to get their calories. At least when doing a competitive
event. You have to get the calories and fluids in you for this kind of
distance.

Quoted message said:

Replacing the entire 10,000+ is not practical. I don't have support for
this ride. The ride arrangers have food stations about every 50-60km
with bananas, sports drinks, and bread with margarine and jam or
margarine and salami. I will eat some bananas and drink the sports
drink but I have to steer clear of the margarine. Last time I
participated all the food at the stations was prepared in advance, so
there was no way for me to just get some plain bread. I cannot digest
lactose and my experience with margarine wich often has lactose on
rides around here has been very unpleasant to put it mildly. This is
why I have such an emphasis on being self-sufficient. There are
gas-stations along the way with all the usual candy and cookies and
soft drinks, but that stuff doesn't really agree with me and I don't
want to stop more than 5 times anyway.

It sounds like you *have* already done a lot of the trial-and-error
needed. Unfortunately, when it comes to special dietary needs, that's
nearly the only way. For example, I have serious problems with corn
syrup sweetners - probably similar to the problems you have with
lactose. I've found, via trial-and-error, that Hammer Gel (no fructose,
but has the maltodextrose an earlier poster cited) works well for me -
lots of calories per ounce, easy for me to digest while riding.

Also, if you have a little time before your event, you might want to
sample some of the options at convenience stores - you may find one or
two things that work among the junk. I've found that most convenience
stores have a brand of oatmeal raisin cookies that are cheap and
moderately healthy and work well for me. Finding something like that
could save you carrying too much excess tonnage in your pack.

Bummer about not being able to get the bread w/o the margarine.

Good luck,

Mark Janeba

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

If you can do 540km in 18-19 hr, you should be telling us what to eat,
not asking.

We'll see if I can do it! But 19 hours hardly puts me in the category
of one to give advice on such matters. I will be at LEAST four or five
hours slower than the leaders.

I wonder what they eat?

I agree with Mr. Cole. If you can do 540 km in 19 hours elapsed time,
then you have to already know what you can eat and not eat on ultra
cycling events. At this pace you are gong to almost qualify for RAAM.
Which I think is over 400 miles in 24 hours. At 540 km (335 miles) in
19 hours, you would be at about 400 miles total in 24 hours. You may
be 4-5 hours slower than the leader. But that is because the leader is
one of the very few people on earth who can ride 500 miles in 24 hours.

There are more than 3,000 people who participate in this event every
year. There are even a few hardy souls who have completed it every year
for the last 38 years!

If the 400 miles were allowed to be flat I suppose I could qualify. But
qualifying for RAAM is a whole different universe from participating.
So could many, many more people than one would think could qualify I
think. This 540 event has people of all sorts participating. Mostly
racer types, but there are people on 3-speeds, grandmothers on commuter
bikes, and everything in between. Watching all these different people
finish is great and really is an impressive sight. Many take way longer
than 19 hours (probably me too, if past performance is anything to go
by!) but it is still something to see, and great fun to do. Almost more
impressive than seeing the lead group roll in under 14 hours!

For those curious, here is the event's site:

http://www.styrkeproven.com/styrk2003/toloypeprofil_en.shtml

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Replacing the entire 10,000+ is not practical. I don't have support for
this ride. The ride arrangers have food stations about every 50-60km
with bananas, sports drinks, and bread with margarine and jam or
margarine and salami. I will eat some bananas and drink the sports
drink but I have to steer clear of the margarine. Last time I
participated all the food at the stations was prepared in advance, so
there was no way for me to just get some plain bread. I cannot digest
lactose and my experience with margarine wich often has lactose on
rides around here has been very unpleasant to put it mildly. This is
why I have such an emphasis on being self-sufficient. There are
gas-stations along the way with all the usual candy and cookies and
soft drinks, but that stuff doesn't really agree with me and I don't
want to stop more than 5 times anyway.

Are you sure about the margarine? The mechanism of lactose
intolerance requires bulk amounts of lactose to cause distress; it
isn't like an allergy where tiny amounts of the offending substance
can cause trouble. Even in margarine which has whey, or a little bit
of butter in it, the amount of lactose present is so small that it
would be very unusual for it to cause a problem. Maybe it was
something else about the sandwiches? Race day sure would be a bad
time to experiment though, so the sandwiches are probobly out either
way.

Anyhow, this just draws attention to the fact that people vary widely
in which foods they tolerate and which they do not, probobly part of
the reason there is such a wide variety of opinions on this subject.

Jim Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Replacing the entire 10,000+ is not practical. I don't have support for
this ride. The ride arrangers have food stations about every 50-60km
with bananas, sports drinks, and bread with margarine and jam or
margarine and salami. I will eat some bananas and drink the sports
drink but I have to steer clear of the margarine. Last time I
participated all the food at the stations was prepared in advance, so
there was no way for me to just get some plain bread. I cannot digest
lactose and my experience with margarine wich often has lactose on
rides around here has been very unpleasant to put it mildly. This is
why I have such an emphasis on being self-sufficient. There are
gas-stations along the way with all the usual candy and cookies and
soft drinks, but that stuff doesn't really agree with me and I don't
want to stop more than 5 times anyway.

Are you sure about the margarine? The mechanism of lactose
intolerance requires bulk amounts of lactose to cause distress; it
isn't like an allergy where tiny amounts of the offending substance
can cause trouble. Even in margarine which has whey, or a little bit
of butter in it, the amount of lactose present is so small that it
would be very unusual for it to cause a problem. Maybe it was
something else about the sandwiches? Race day sure would be a bad
time to experiment though, so the sandwiches are probobly out either
way.

Almost all the margarine types around here have lots of cream, and or
added lactose. I have tried them all (only about 4 or 5 choices)
previously and have had bad results. On the ride I knew it was a bad
idea, but I didn't really have a choice. Lactose "lubricates my system"
very effectively. Under normal circumstances when I eat enough other
things it has only a small overall effect when I eat small quantities.
But when it is one of the main ingredients on an arduous long ride, it
is a guarantee for disaster for me. In addition to being very
unpleasant, it undoubtedly caused lack of absorbtion problems for the
other things I ate.

Quoted message said:

Anyhow, this just draws attention to the fact that people vary widely
in which foods they tolerate and which they do not, probobly part of
the reason there is such a wide variety of opinions on this subject.

Would that the variety of opinions on all other subjects were as easily
explained! ;-)

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Paul Kopit <http://www.caltriplecrown.com/Fame.htm#PK>

Just checked the link. You are hard core!

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this 350 per hour a tailored guestimate for my size, or a gerneral
rule of thumb for all people? Does this mean that were I to consume
more than 350 per hour it would just "sit in the pipe" til the
absorbtion of the previous 350 was complete, or would it be wasted?

Depending on which foods you choose, you'll need to eat more than 350
calories/hr in order to absorb 350/hr.

Quoted message said:

I assue I will need much more than 500, but the idea was only to limit
the deficit in a way. Would peanut butter be wasted, or just long to be
absorbed? The reason I would like to use it is it is compact in size
related to number of calories, as is honey. A couple of PB sandwiches
and a waterbottle full of honey would be a lot of easily transported
calories.

What doesn't get absorbed, stays within the intestinal tract.
Eventually, much of it in the large intestine and then out. You want
simple foods that are easy to digest. I think that Pop [censored] will
work better than peanut butter. If peanut butter worked, you could
just drink olive oil with a bit of bread. The honey is too easy and
raises your insulin level quickly with the risk of having too much
insulin and not enough sugar...sugar bonk. I like jelly beans.

Quoted message said:

I wonder if camelback makes a "bagel magazine" to carry 19 bagels...

It takes too much energy to chew the bagels and they are easy to choke
on.