Nike Free vs. Flats vs. nothing

Quoted message said:

takes more than 15 minutes to load over dial up>

What's really sad, is that you waited 15 minutes to find out.

For true barefoot running just wrap your feet in leather. Yes you'll
look stupid, but that's the price you pay. Personally I grew up
barefoot, and after a few summers you build up thick pads that are
impervious to rocks, and jagged edges, even most broken glass does no
damage.
As far as nikes go, I just realized a pair of shorts I have are nikes,
and now I know why my nuts have been shriveled up lately.

Quoted message said:

I heard about running flats once. Are these that much better? Do I
really want to pay Nike $85 [...] isn't there some cheaper alternative?

I ran into some Nike guys outside my local park some weeks ago, pushing
the Free. I was wearing Nike Waffle Racers (last year's model) and
they were aghast that someone was stoopid enough to run in what they
considered a "lifestyle shoe".

I did a lap in the Free, and found it more cushiony but no more
obviously barefoot-y than the much cheaper Waffle Racers. The Waffles
have thus far protected my sensitive tootsies from anything on the NYC
streets and park trails. They're much more suited to off-road than
on-, but I've worn them for up to a 15k road race on pavement and not
regretted it.

There are other choices which fall between duct taping your soles and
lightweight trainers. Spikeless cross country shoes, other "lifestyle"
shoes like Puma's H Street, aqua socks, etc. Lots of talk about these
shoes on letsrun.com and google will find you some here as well -
especially in years past.

When trying minimal shoes you wanna be cautious about ramping up miles
(and maybe intensity?) in them, lest you anger your AT or calves. IMO
spending a lot of time barefoot or in low-heeled street shoes, like
Birkenstocks or other sandals, goes a long way toward preparing you for
low-heeled running shoes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

takes more than 15 minutes to load over dial up>

What's really sad, is that you waited 15 minutes to find out.

Actually after 15 minutes I gave up. Had to do it from work. (er, no I
didn't).

Quoted message said:

For true barefoot running just wrap your feet in leather. Yes you'll
look stupid, but that's the price you pay. Personally I grew up
barefoot, and after a few summers you build up thick pads that are
impervious to rocks, and jagged edges, even most broken glass does no
damage.

There is a track near where I live made of recycled tires or something.
really cool. I Could probably go totally barefoot on it.

I just thought I would work toward longer distances. Also just
something to walk around in.

For my actual runs I guess I don't care that much about how I look. So
do you just buy leather somewhere and wrap up?

Quoted message said:

As far as nikes go, I just realized a pair of shorts I have are nikes,
and now I know why my nuts have been shriveled up lately.

lol

-DaveK

Charlie Pendejo said:

Quoted message said:

I heard about running flats once. Are these that much better? Do I
really want to pay Nike $85 [...] isn't there some cheaper alternative?

I ran into some Nike guys outside my local park some weeks ago, pushing
the Free. I was wearing Nike Waffle Racers (last year's model) and
they were aghast that someone was stoopid enough to run in what they
considered a "lifestyle shoe".

And "last year's model" no less. They probably where aghast at how
outdated they were too. lol

Quoted message said:

I did a lap in the Free, and found it more cushiony but no more
obviously barefoot-y than the much cheaper Waffle Racers. The Waffles
have thus far protected my sensitive tootsies from anything on the NYC
streets and park trails. They're much more suited to off-road than
on-, but I've worn them for up to a 15k road race on pavement and not
regretted it.

If they're good enough for NYC streets I can't imagine anything
well..worse?

Quoted message said:

There are other choices which fall between duct taping your soles and
lightweight trainers. Spikeless cross country shoes, other "lifestyle"
shoes like Puma's H Street, aqua socks, etc. Lots of talk about these
shoes on letsrun.com and google will find you some here as well -
especially in years past.

I will look into all of that. Thanks.

Quoted message said:

When trying minimal shoes you wanna be cautious about ramping up miles
(and maybe intensity?) in them, lest you anger your AT or calves. IMO
spending a lot of time barefoot or in low-heeled street shoes, like
Birkenstocks or other sandals, goes a long way toward preparing you for
low-heeled running shoes.

That's why I thought of just getting them to walk around in first.
Just to do errands on weekends, after work etc. Seems like that would
be the best way really.

-DaveK

Quoted message said:

For my actual runs I guess I don't care that much about how I look. So

do you just buy leather somewhere and wrap up?>

Me again. Any native american trading posts nearby? They make a great
pair of all leather (bottoms too) moccasins that work great. I guess
they could easily be bought online. Again, I prefer barefoot, and yes
your track should be ok to run barefoot on.

Quoted message said:

That's why I thought of just getting them to walk around in first.

Just to do errands on weekends, after work etc. Seems like that would
be the best way really.>

Dave,
These are a blatant ripoff, like most nikes. Forget them.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I heard about running flats once. Are these that much better? Do I
really want to pay Nike $85 [...] isn't there some cheaper alternative?

I ran into some Nike guys outside my local park some weeks ago, pushing
the Free. I was wearing Nike Waffle Racers (last year's model) and
they were aghast that someone was stoopid enough to run in what they
considered a "lifestyle shoe".

Hey, anything to promote the idea that last years top-of-the-line is now
sadly obsolete is good for retail sales. #1 rule of retail: make clearance
sales look pitiful, and the full price s**t stands out.

Dave

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd been thinking about barefoot training for awhile, but just haven't
gotten around to it. I heard about running flats once. Are these that
much better? Do I really want to pay Nike $85 for something put
together by a 13 Filipino girl somewhere or isn't there some cheaper
alternative?

That is an obscene amount of money for a shoe that will be all but
forgotten next spring. IMO, there would be little practical difference
between racing flats and these Frees.
I would still have major concerns with stress injuries - most of us
can't handle more than 5-10miles/week on hard surfaces without the right
shoe support. I feel the best barefoot running is doing windsprints
barefoot on a grass field. If you have access to a good, clean grass
athletic field, finish your workouts with 5-10 50y windsprints - they will
build strength, refresh you, and there is nothing like cool grass between
your toes.

Quoted message said:

Tangent - Anybody from around Philly?

Central PA - Harrisburg area. Used to live in Newark DE, a true
runner's haven.

Dave

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For my actual runs I guess I don't care that much about how I look. So

do you just buy leather somewhere and wrap up?>

Me again. Any native american trading posts nearby?

The town I live in is called Conshohocken... But ironically, no!

Quoted message said:

They make a great
pair of all leather (bottoms too) moccasins that work great. I guess
they could easily be bought online. Again, I prefer barefoot, and yes
your track should be ok to run barefoot on.

I will have a look around. thanks again.

Quoted message said:

Dave, These are a blatant ripoff, like most nikes. Forget them.>

Although ALL nikes are blatant ripoffs.

David Geesaman said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd been thinking about barefoot training for awhile, but just haven't
gotten around to it. I heard about running flats once. Are these that
much better? Do I really want to pay Nike $85 for something put
together by a 13 Filipino girl somewhere or isn't there some cheaper
alternative?

That is an obscene amount of money for a shoe that will be all but
forgotten next spring. IMO, there would be little practical difference
between racing flats and these Frees.
I would still have major concerns with stress injuries - most of us
can't handle more than 5-10miles/week on hard surfaces without the right
shoe support. I feel the best barefoot running is doing windsprints
barefoot on a grass field. If you have access to a good, clean grass
athletic field, finish your workouts with 5-10 50y windsprints - they will
build strength, refresh you, and there is nothing like cool grass between
your toes.

Irony of ironies, the more I read, talk to people here and a few other
places, I am starting to seriously consider going barefoot. There seem
to be less stress injuries, less knee problems, less shin splints,
everything. And it's a hell of a lot cheaper too. Has to be taken up
gradually of course, which is tough for me becuase I am impulsive and
have problems with moderation....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tangent - Anybody from around Philly?

Central PA - Harrisburg area. Used to live in Newark DE, a true
runner's haven.

Dave

David Kotschessa said:

Irony of ironies, the more I read, talk to people here and a few other
places, I am starting to seriously consider going barefoot. There
seem
to be less stress injuries, less knee problems, less shin splints,
everything. And it's a hell of a lot cheaper too. Has to be taken up
gradually of course, which is tough for me becuase I am impulsive and
have problems with moderation....

Ah, you must be a runner then.... ;-)

Tim

Tim Downie said:

David Kotschessa said:

Irony of ironies, the more I read, talk to people here and a few other
places, I am starting to seriously consider going barefoot. There
seem
to be less stress injuries, less knee problems, less shin splints,
everything. And it's a hell of a lot cheaper too. Has to be taken up
gradually of course, which is tough for me becuase I am impulsive and
have problems with moderation....

Ah, you must be a runner then.... ;-)

Tim

Yeah, my impulsive and extreme behavior has gotten me through one
marathon and a couple of halfs. Albeit verrrry slow ones...

Quoted message said:

Has to be taken up gradually of course, which is tough for me
becuase I am impulsive and have problems with moderation...

Ah, so you're the one.

Well you know what they say about the ultimate destination on the road
of excess, right?

But it likely passes through the town of injury and the rest stop of
regret on the way.

One obvious strategy for minimizing risk while accommodating the need
for immediate gratification is to work your way down a progression of
minimal footware, starting NOW :-)

e.g. if you're accustomed to a 11-14 oz trainer, go out right now and
find a ~9 oz "flat" with somewhat lower heel. Many choices here.
Asics Gel Magic is popular, though I like Brooks Racer ST better.
Couple enthusiastic mentions of Saucony Fastwitch here lately, which I
imagine is in the same general class. Go for a run in them
immediately, but keep it relatively short and slow and decide upfront
to do only x% of your mileage in them the first week. You might begin
to use them as your "speed" shoe for faster workouts as well as inch up
the weekly miles in them.

Later buy something with even less heel (and probably lighter and more
flexible), and it's your new "light shoe" to work into the rotation.
There seem to be fewer road flats in this category, I'm thinking like
my Nike Air Streak Ekidens, Brooks T3, and New Balance always seems to
have had a model or two like this.

And keep moving down until you hit barefoot.

Of course one could combine this kind of progression with some
immediate, short, barefoot running (and walking), so that over months
you spend more and more time in less and less shoe.

And you might even find that minimal shoes don't work for you, and the
contemporary conventional wisdom of more cushioning and more technology
are what you need.

Or you might find that your sweet spot is a 7 oz road flat with such
and such heel height and anything more is a brick and anything less, an
injury.

Or you might find that you like having an Imelda Marcos caliber shoe
collection and enjoy mixing it up depending on the length and surface
of you run and your whim.

David Geesaman said:

As an anecdote, I never had significant injuries except sore muscles
until my junior year of college. That fall I determined that I ran faster
races elevated on my toes, and decided to do my speed workouts only wearing
my race spikes and striking toe first. The theory was I would build up my
calves and legs to make me faster. And I was faster, and I did build up. I
also began to develop a stress fracture in my right foot that required a few

I've seen a number of posts about injuries that resulted from wearing flats or
very light shoes, and it seems foot problems (especially tarsals) are common.
Many believe that you're likely to get a knee injury or something related to
inadequate heel cushioning. Actually, this turns out not to be a problem
because foot strike adapts to reduce heel impact. Likewise, people usually
don't get achilles tendon problems, because one can adapt. But there's not a
whole lot you can do about impact around the ball of the foot. That's where the
impact is supposed to happen if you're running properly, so not a whole lot can
be done to reduce it (besides getting a shoe with adequate forefoot cushioning)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

But there's not a whole lot you can do about impact around
the ball of the foot.

Define "you" and "a whole lot". :-)

- lose weight (at least one's loose weight)
- softer surface
- increase stride rate
- perhaps other form improvements (but don't look to me for specifics)
- maybe cushier socks, though not sure how much they help, and I don't
like 'em; or inserts
- run on a less massive planet or moon

Quoted message said:

That is an obscene amount of money for a shoe that will be all but
forgotten next spring.

The extrapolation is to charge $400 for nike swoosh decal
to put on the top of your bare foot :-)

I did barefoot running for about a year until I had health problems
(nothing to do with running). I followed Ozzie Gontangs running advice
to the letter...technique is everything. I ran on the crown the
roads...they tend to be quite clean. I also didn't run barefoot midday
in the summer --burns. When the roads are wet the pebbles and stuff
stick to your feet and that can hurt too. When I couldn't run barefoot
I ran in flats.

I worked up to it. I would walk barefoot a lot to build up some
callous, and I would start my run with shoes and then ditch the shoes
for the last mile or so.

Again I read a lot of web pages and especially Ozzie Gontangs stuff.
The technique developed from his advice was key. If I had run barefoot
the way I ran with expensive running shoes it just wouldn't have
worked.

The people on my running routes found it very entertaining. Oops.. I
choose quiet streets to run on

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But there's not a whole lot you can do about impact around
the ball of the foot.

Define "you" and "a whole lot". :-)

- lose weight (at least one's loose weight)
- softer surface
- increase stride rate
- perhaps other form improvements (but don't look to me for specifics)
- maybe cushier socks, though not sure how much they help, and I don't
like 'em; or inserts
- run on a less massive planet or moon

In my case, my weight was down (160lb at 6'-1"😉, the surface was soft (all
weather indoor track), my stride rate was very high, my form was as good as
it would get.

I started to crack my 2nd met. in my right foot because 1) my right leg was
shorter than my left by 1cm, and 2) running speed workouts on a flat indoor
track is very intense left hand turns. Both of these conspired to make the
right foot strike much more severe. The good news is that the onset of this
fracture was gradual and detectable, and I only ran in minor pain for a week
or two on it to get by the peak of that season.

But still, I'm convinced most of us simply don't have the biomechanics to
make it work.

Dave