Warning - Mikado (ProCycle, Canada) Frame Fiasco (IMO Bad design)

"mark freedman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The dealer says I get to pay them to strip the frame and ship it to ProCycle for examination.
Three or four weeks later, ProCycle MAY decide to ship a replacement frame. Then I get to pay
the dealer to reinstall all the old parts. Meanwhile I've lost four weeks of prime cycling
season and my holiday plans are ruined.

This is why you need two bikes. My sympathies.

RichC

Rich Clark' may have said:

"mark freedman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The dealer says I get to pay them to strip the frame and ship it to ProCycle for examination.
Three or four weeks later, ProCycle MAY decide to ship a replacement frame. Then I get to pay
the dealer to reinstall all the old parts. Meanwhile I've lost four weeks of prime cycling
season and my holiday plans are ruined.

This is why you need two bikes. My sympathies.

Two that aren't identical, but have interchangeable main assemblies, preferably. (This gets around
the "same mistake twice" problem.)

---
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mark freedman said:

Mikado has a sloping top tube design which leaves the top
2" of the seat tube completely unsupported (not sure if the

Quoted message said:

Intuitively, this design is weaker than conventional frames where very little of the seat tube
extends above the top tube and seatstay joints. I suspect it allows flexing and the eventual
breakdown of the tubes and brazed joints (ProCycle's "Direct Brazing System" - no lugs).

You have my sympathies, but lots of bicycles now have this extended seatmast design and don't crack.
It is possibly just a poorly made joint (overheated during brazing?) If you post a link to a picture
the experts may weigh in. One issue to be aware of is that the minimum insertion of the seatpost
should bring the bottom of the post below the toptube-seattube junction. If the seatpost is only
inserted <5cm into the mast section of the seattube it might cause the flexing problem you indicate.
(That would usually violate the seatpost maker's minimum insertion mark, so it hopefully doesn't
happen very often.)

Benjamin Weiner may have said:

... If the seatpost is only inserted <5cm into the mast section of the seattube it might cause the
flexing problem you indicate. (That would usually violate the seatpost maker's minimum insertion
mark, so it hopefully doesn't happen very often.)

There appear to be seat post makers who have different marking depths, but I can't imagine them
making one that was indicated as safe when that shallowly installed. On the other hand, I've got a
used post sitting here that I purchased recently which has no min insertion indicated on it at all.
A short post at a relatively extreme lift would, as you said, put the max load right at the joint;
this would be a Bad Thing in my estimation. Somehow, though, I doubt that the lbs that assembled the
bike would have made that mistake; I would think that it's the kind of thing a newbie wannabe weight
weenie might do.

---
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Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

In article <[email hidden]>, mark freedman

Quoted message said:

ProCycle in Quebec has not replied to two Emails.

This is sadly pretty normal for the bicycle industry - they do not expect to interact with their
customers directly via email, they count on the local dealer to handle the customer interaction. If
you want to talk to the manufacturer, use the phone or talk to the factory rep in person - sending
email is usually a waste of time no matter how prominently their address is printed on the web site.

Quoted message said:

The dealer says I get to pay them to strip the frame and ship it to ProCycle for examination.
Three or four weeks later, ProCycle MAY decide to ship a replacement frame. Then I get to pay
the dealer to reinstall all the old parts. Meanwhile I've lost four weeks of prime cycling
season and my holiday plans are ruined.

You might try starting the process over with another ProCycle dealer to see if they have a better
deal to offer, such as a loaner or lower labor costs for the warranty repair. Or if you can meet up
with the factory rep sometimes they can authorize a warranty replacement on the spot.

Also, if you don't like the frame, you could consider replacing it now and selling the
replaced/repaired one when it comes back, assuming you can afford that.

--Paul

Benjamin Weiner <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

mark freedman said:

Mikado has a sloping top tube design which leaves the top
2" of the seat tube completely unsupported (not sure if the

Quoted message said:

seatmast design and don't crack. It is possibly just a poorly made joint (overheated during
brazing?) If you post a link to a picture

I'd have to get the joint and tube cut apart and analyzed. If they've placed the joint on the
thin portion of the butted tubing, that might contribute to the flexing. A friend had a Colnago
downtube crack just around the start of the butted portion (where the cable stops are).

No digital camera, may shoot 35 mm and pay for a Kodak PictureCD.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the post below the toptube-seattube junction. If the seatpost is

only inserted <5cm into the mast section of the seattube it might cause

5" = 5 INCHES. Sorry if " does not mean inches everywhere.

The end of the seatpost extends 1.5" (INCHES) below the bottom of the top tube joint.

Mikado's website uses FlashPlayer (?) so I don't seem able to clip the URL.:-(

The following URL shows the Radisson, which seems to use the OXII frame and geometry, and has a
nice close up of the seattube toptube seatstay joints.

brauns.comgc item.exeOpen ↗
ng%20Rigid%20Bicycles&ID=07130732236468825859

mark freedman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mikado has a sloping top tube design which leaves the top
2" of the seat tube completely unsupported (not sure if the

Quoted message said:

I'd have to get the joint and tube cut apart and analyzed. If they've placed the joint on the
thin portion of the butted tubing, that might contribute to the flexing. A friend had a Colnago
downtube crack just around the start of the butted portion (where the cable stops are).

I'm just suggesting you take a picture of the existing crack.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the post below the toptube-seattube junction. If the seatpost is

only inserted <5cm into the mast section of the seattube it might cause

Quoted message said:

5" = 5 INCHES. Sorry if " does not mean inches everywhere.

I translated your 2 inches into 5 cm. That's all.

Quoted message said:

The end of the seatpost extends 1.5" (INCHES) below the bottom of the top tube joint.

Good. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to blame you for this. I just don't think the seatmast design is
necessarily flawed, and think you might get further with them and the dealer by pointing out that it
is likely a flaw in construction of your particular frame. They still owe you a new frame, and IMHO
should also eat the cost of building up the new frame. That support is why one buys bikes from local
dealers after all.

I had to trim ont.bicycle because we don't carry it, and set followups to rec.bicycles.tech which is
where this discussion belongs.

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

... If the seatpost is only inserted <5cm into the mast section of the seattube it might cause
the flexing problem you indicate. (That would usually violate the seatpost maker's minimum
insertion mark, so it hopefully doesn't happen very often.)

There appear to be seat post makers who have different marking depths, but I can't imagine them
making one that was indicated as safe when that shallowly installed. On the other hand, I've got a
used post sitting here that I purchased recently which has no min insertion indicated on it at
all. A short post at a relatively extreme lift would, as you said, put the max load right at the
joint; this would be a Bad Thing in my estimation. Somehow, though, I doubt that the lbs that
assembled the bike would have made that mistake; I would think that it's the kind of thing a
newbie wannabe weight weenie might do.

In my experience, most road seatposts have the max line at 6.5 cm from the bottom, and longer posts
of 30-40cm have it at 10cm from the bottom. The marking is sometimes very obscured on used posts.

With an extended seatmast and 6.5cm insertion, it could be possible for the post to not reach the
bottom of the TT-ST junction. I believe this was not the OP's problem.

I think the max line is (a) a guideline and (b) covers the seatpost maker's ass, not necessarily the
framebuilder's. It also obviously depends on weight and use (You can go to www.mtbreview.com and
read lots of reviews that say in effect "This lightweight post sucks d00d, I bent it after only two
weeks of doing 10 foot drops."😉

Back in the Old Days, frames didn't have extended seatmasts and one didn't have to think about this
beyond obeying the seatpost max line, but now there is the slight possibility for screwing up.

Benjamin Weiner may have said:

In my experience, most road seatposts have the max line at 6.5 cm from the bottom, and longer posts
of 30-40cm have it at 10cm from the bottom. The marking is sometimes very obscured on used posts.

Hmmm. Yes, road stems in general would not tend to need to be as long, and now that you mention
it, theres as much as a 3 inch difference in the distance from the top of the seat tube to the
upper frame joints between the four mountain bikes and the road bike on the back patio. Sticking
a road stem in a MTB frame would seem contraindicated unless you really need a short
seat-to-pedal distance.

Quoted message said:

With an extended seatmast and 6.5cm insertion, it could be possible for the post to not reach the
bottom of the TT-ST junction. I believe this was not the OP's problem.

I don't either, but it's something to watch out for when looking over a potential new ride,
particularly if it's *not* being bought from a competent bike shop. (An acquaintance recently ran
across a bastardization prize at a garage sale; an early Cannondale road frame that had been
downgraded to a shadetree nightmare hybrid by the installation of the wheels and handlebars from
some mass-market 10 speed comfort bike; needless to say, what he considered that he was buying was
*just* the frame, even if it could theoretically be ridden. The pedals came within about 3 inches of
the ground at the bottom of their rotation. The guy who had it said he'd bought it used while in
college, and his kids had bent the wheels riding it around and then "fixed" it by grafting on the
bits from a junkyard dog while he was out of town.)

Quoted message said:

I think the max line is (a) a guideline and (b) covers the seatpost maker's ass, not necessarily
the framebuilder's. It also obviously depends on weight and use (You can go to www.mtbreview.com
and read lots of reviews that say in effect "This lightweight post sucks d00d, I bent it after only
two weeks of doing 10 foot drops."😉

Some people just have no sense of humor. Others have no sense, and also won't RTFM. ("What do you
mean, there's no warranty against damage to this tow bar if I back up with it attached?"😉 ("But the
salesman didn't tell me that the printer would self destruct if I ran a sheet of aluminum foil
through it!"😉

Quoted message said:

Back in the Old Days, frames didn't have extended seatmasts and one didn't have to think about this
beyond obeying the seatpost max line, but now there is the slight possibility for screwing up.

Opportunities to make new mistakes are present everywhere, but some people still prefer the old
ones, like not checking tire pressure, and not doing the maintenance when it's needed. And, possibly
the #1 mistake of all, failure to RTFM.

(In the world of tech support for corporate executives, there's a variant, by the way; RTFMA, which
is "Read the furnished materials, sir."😉

---
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.

Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

It sounds like you may have had a manufacturing defect right from the start. A steel frame should
not creak. What's the guarantee on the frame? It's got to be more than 3 years - aren't Mikado steel
frames guaranteed for life? Defects do happen.

If it's a bad design, it's one that the whole industry is using nowadays.

The cost of stripping down the frame and rebuilding it afterwards may well be worth it in order to
get a replacement.

Pierre

"mark freedman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I made the horrendous mistake of purchasing a Mikado D'Iberville Touring bike in March 2000.
Similar specs to a Trek 520; True Temper OXII tubing, mix of Shimano LX and 105 componentry.
Seemed a better value, and I like to support Canadian manufacturers (frame made in Quebec).

I became concerned about the amount of flexing and creaking as I rode. A closer examination
revealed identical cracks which begin on the top tube about 1" from the seat tube. extend
across the seat tube to the point where the seat stays are brazed to the seat tube and, on one
side, extend around the seatstay joint.

I've just had independant confirmation that the top tube and seat tube have cracked, and the
joint where the seatstay was brazed to the seat tube has also cracked.

I weigh about 160 pounds and carry a single pannier weighing another 10 pounds. I don't believe
overloading was a factor. The stock seatpost extends about 5" below the top of the seat tube,
and the minimum insertion mark is well inside the seat tube. I've ridden about 20,000
kilometers.

Mikado has a sloping top tube design which leaves the top 2" of the seat tube completely
unsupported (not sure if the butted tubing means the top tube and seatstays are brazed onto the
thinner portion of the tube).

The seat stays attach just ABOVE the point where the top tube joins the seat tube.

There's also a long slot cut into the seat tube so the clamp can compress it around the post.

Intuitively, this design is weaker than conventional frames where very little of the seat tube
extends above the top tube and seatstay joints. I suspect it allows flexing and the eventual
breakdown of the tubes and brazed joints (ProCycle's "Direct Brazing System" - no lugs).

ProCycle in Quebec has not replied to two Emails. I will escalate next week.

The dealer says I get to pay them to strip the frame and ship it to ProCycle for examination.
Three or four weeks later, ProCycle MAY decide to ship a replacement frame. Then I get to pay
the dealer to reinstall all the old parts. Meanwhile I've lost four weeks of prime cycling
season and my holiday plans are ruined.

Ah, the perils of patriotism :-)

In said:

If they actually brazed them instead of welding then that might be the problem right there. I'm not
familiar witht he brand but unless it came from Walmart, this sort of quality is not acceptable.

Plenty of top notch bicycle frames are brazed. I think the problem was a design flaw. The frame
designer may have underestimated or failed to realize some stresses. As I remember how this frame
was described a few posts ago, I could see how it could have craked in normal use, whether it was
brazed or welded. Normally the seat stays are attached to the seat tube at the same height at
which the top tube is attached, forming a distinct "seat cluster" joint. If I remember correctly,
the seat stays and the top tube were attached at different heights, and the way I see it this can
flex the seat tube in a way that can cause cracks in the rear end of the top tube or where the
seat stays are atached, maybe elsewhere in that area. And most brazed frames have lugs. (The frame
in question here does not.) You can make good lugless brazed frames, but it's trickier, among
other things requiring built-up braze joints that typically require brass braze which requires a
higher brazing temperature (than silver brazes) that weakens most of the higher-strength steels
used in lighter weight steel frames. A good steel for brass brazed bicycle frames is Reynolds 531,
which seems to have been falling out of fashion the last time I paid much attention in this area.
There were good brazed bicycle frames before there were good welded ones. In the 1970's and early
1980's, the usual road racing bicycle frame had steel tubing and steel lugs and was brazed.

- Don Klipstein ([email hidden])

The build method used by Procycle for its Mikado line is the same as it has used for years with its
steel Peugeot line, and as used for years before that by Peugeot itself. It's an internally-brazed
design - quite elegant actually, with no visible weld or seam. The frame design (ie. the seat tube
and seat stay cluster) itself has been in use for years as well. Mikado is not definitely NOT a
department store bike.

Pierre Ottawa

"Don Klipstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In said:

If they actually brazed them instead of welding then that might be the problem right there. I'm
not familiar witht he brand but unless it came from Walmart, this sort of quality is not
acceptable.

Plenty of top notch bicycle frames are brazed. I think the problem was a design flaw. The frame
designer may have underestimated or failed to realize some stresses. As I remember how this
frame was described a few posts ago, I could see how it could have craked in normal use, whether
it was brazed or welded. Normally the seat stays are attached to the seat tube at the same
height at which the top tube is attached, forming a distinct "seat cluster" joint. If I remember
correctly, the seat stays and the top tube were attached at different heights, and the way I see
it this can flex the seat tube in a way that can cause cracks in the rear end of the top tube or
where the seat stays are atached, maybe elsewhere in that area. And most brazed frames have
lugs. (The frame in question here does not.) You can make good lugless brazed frames, but it's
trickier, among other things requiring built-up braze joints that typically require brass braze
which requires a higher brazing temperature (than silver brazes) that weakens most of the
higher-strength steels used in lighter weight steel frames. A good steel for brass brazed
bicycle frames is Reynolds 531, which seems to have been falling out of fashion the last time I
paid much attention in this area. There were good brazed bicycle frames before there were good
welded ones. In the 1970's and early 1980's, the usual road racing bicycle frame had steel
tubing and steel lugs and was brazed.

- Don Klipstein ([email hidden])

Benjamin Weiner said:

I think the max line is (a) a guideline and (b) covers the seatpost maker's ass, not necessarily
the framebuilder's. It also obviously depends on weight and use (You can go to www.mtbreview.com
and read lots of reviews that say in effect "This lightweight post sucks d00d, I bent it after only
two weeks of doing 10 foot drops."😉

I've doubled over two oldfashioned but long chromed steel seatpost with still 4 inch or so before
the max insertion mark could even be seen (with about 6-7 inches showing between the two clamps),
and that's just potholes on slightly underinflated 35 mm tyres, too. The same style of steel tube in
the too-short version, at the max insertion mark, isn't even bent, let alone doubled over. Seatpost
integrity has little to do with the amount of insertion, and everuthing to do with the amount of
tube showing, IMHO. The only thing max insertion should matter for is if it's too high up, and
seatpost can work its way out, in the process severely damaging the frame.

Jasper

Werehatrack said:

(In the world of tech support for corporate executives, there's a variant, by the way; RTFMA, which
is "Read the furnished materials, sir."😉

I wonder what is in the Army. Probably "ARTFMA!": Sir, read the furnished materials, Sir!

Jasper

In article <[email hidden]>, pierrot51 @hotmail.com says...

Quoted message said:

The build method used by Procycle for its Mikado line is the same as it has used for years with
its steel Peugeot line, and as used for years before that by Peugeot itself. It's an
internally-brazed design - quite elegant actually, with no visible weld or seam. The frame design
(ie. the seat tube and seat stay cluster) itself has been in use for years as well. Mikado is not
definitely NOT a department store bike.

Pierre Ottawa

I have seen and owned an internally brazed Peugot frame, they also do apear in Dept. stores. However
I have seen tubes pinched flat and brazed onto the surface of the seat tube which is what I thought
he meant. Hopefully no high end bike is made that way.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia ramsays-online.comramsays-online.comOpen ↗

Chris Phillipo said:

I have seen and owned an internally brazed Peugot frame, they also do apear in Dept. stores.
However I have seen tubes pinched flat and brazed onto the surface of the seat tube which is what
I thought he meant. Hopefully no high end bike is made that way.

Not anymore, at least. Carleton frames from the late 60s and early 70s had a wrap-around seatstay
that tapered and was brazed to the sides and upper surface of the seat lug. Mind you, Carletons were
a fairly well made frame before TI Raleigh screwed them up in the mid-70s.
--
Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to
get "yourfinger." out.)