Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?

An anonymous poster said:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
so many broken bones with them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me that
he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

See: sheldonbrown.combrakturn.htmlOpen ↗

Sheldon "One Brake At A Time" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------+
| It is good to learn from your mistakes; | It is better to learn from the mistakes of others. |
+---------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars (based on what looks very
much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

"whitfit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
so many broken bones with them.

Whitfit.

Sheldon Brown said:

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance were trying to chase down
Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid back
to his right and he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very painful. It
was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this year's tour interesting.

The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but it's hard to
tell for sure.

A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it slippery. Who the hell
still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went out 50-60 years ago.

At least Lance came out unscathed; though his little cycle cross solution to collision avoidance did
cost him a little time to Vinokourov (though obviously not as much as crashing would have).

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

That's France for you (and other countries in Europe also) Roads less travelled on get patched up
after the winter with gravel and tar (It's cheaper and quicker propably), It's better than
pottholes though.

Peter

"Bill Davidson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JyFQa.23$He.15@fed1read03...

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not

pause.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance were trying to chase down
Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid
back to his right and he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very
painful. It was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this year's tour interesting.

The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but it's hard to tell
for sure.

A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it slippery. Who the hell
still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went out 50-60 years ago.

At least Lance came out unscathed; though his little cycle cross solution to collision avoidance
did cost him a little time to Vinokourov (though obviously not as much as crashing would have).

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

Bill Davidson said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance were trying to chase down
Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid
back to his right and he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very
painful. It was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this year's tour interesting.

Could have been too much speed, could have been slippery road. You need to look a few meters earlier
to find the real cause. A likely combination of both.

I'm not sure but it might have been the same corner that we saw Vinokourov go through, when Phil
said, "That was a sketcy patch right there," or words to that effect. I'm not clear on how much of a
lead Vino had at the time. If it was just 10 seconds or so it would have fit.

Quoted message said:

The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but it's hard to tell
for sure.

A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it slippery. Who the hell
still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went out 50-60 years ago.

Lots of mountain and rural roads get 'em. They're all over in the Intermountain West. They put up
speed warning signs ("Avoid broken windshield. 15 mph."😉 around the freshly-laid stretches.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Quoted message said:

From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars (based on what looks
very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly visible:
velonews.com4520.5461.f.jpgOpen ↗

The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not the cause.

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars (based on what looks
very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

"whitfit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not
have so many broken bones with them.

Whitfit.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald" <[email hidden]> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Sent:
Monday, July 14, 2003 6:47 PM Subject: Re: Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not

tubulars

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly

visible:

Quoted message said:

velonews.com4520.5461.f.jpgOpen ↗

The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not

the cause.

I think you're right about the clincher tire. I just read the Velonews account and Armstrong stated
that Beloki had locked up his brakes, the rear wheel started to slide and the tire blew. FWIW, I had
the same thing happen to me about 20 years ago coming into a hard turn after screaming my (then) 185
lbs down a hill near Ft Ancient, OH. By some miracle, I managed to stay upright, although my
Anquetil cleats lost a bit of depth from being used as outriggers!

"P. Hardewig @fuse.net>" <pjwig<nospam> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald" <[email hidden]> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:47 PM Subject: Re: Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not

tubulars

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly

visible:

Quoted message said:

velonews.com4520.5461.f.jpgOpen ↗

The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not

the cause.

I think you're right about the clincher tire. I just read the Velonews account and Armstrong
stated that Beloki had locked up his brakes, the

rear

Quoted message said:

wheel started to slide and the tire blew. FWIW, I had the same thing

happen

Quoted message said:

to me about 20 years ago coming into a hard turn after screaming my (then) 185 lbs down a hill
near Ft Ancient, OH. By some miracle, I managed to

stay

Quoted message said:

upright, although my Anquetil cleats lost a bit of depth from being used

as

Quoted message said:

outriggers!

Doubt very much those are clinchers; the day before they were on carbon-rim tubulars; see
olntv.comtech2.htmlOpen ↗ for a look. The lighter strip on the rim is either tire glue
or more likely, the tire pulled away from it's base tape under the strain of the crash and that's
what you see. I rolled a conti sprinter once back when they were prone to doing that, and the
remaining base tape looked just about like that.

I'd be more inclined to blame the notoriously spotty braking manners of carbon rims. Bad road
surface + hard-to-modulate brakes + tires that peel off when you get 'em sideways = big ouch. Just
speculation of course, but it wouldn't be the first time that compromising function for light weight
put a rider on the deck. Just ask Tyler...

As an aside, this is the first year Beloki hasn't used a 650-wheeled bike in the mountains. Last
year when they first rode the carbon TCR's, he was the only guy on Once to still use a special
aluminum bike with smaller wheels on the climbing stages - a holdover from the days of Jalabert, who
used them in the mountains until his retirement.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

An anonymous poster said:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not
have so many broken bones with them.

Big Mig used clinchers in the mountains, presumably for this reason as a large and heavy rider he
was going to be braking hard.

Quoted message said:

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

The video clip I saw on the evening news showed a dramatic fishtail- almost sideways in one
direction, then the other, and *boom* he hit the pavement hard. Followed by Armstrong plowing off
the road and through a field basically down the fall line, then hopping off the bike and running
onto the road and remounting. Not quite with the smooth cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele Pontoni
or Adri van der Poel, but entertaining none the less. He must have been [censored] bricks!

In article JyFQa.23$He.15@fed1read03 said:

A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it slippery. Who the hell
still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went out 50-60 years ago

When I was in the Alps last summer, it looked like the seam patches were tar with some sort of
greenish sand on top rather than asphalt
mix.

Sheldon Brown at [email hidden] wrote on 7/14/03 2:22 PM:

Quoted message said:

An anonymous poster said:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
so many broken bones with them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a brutal crash - went down
hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down
onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending like a madman. Reported
ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments had been made about the "softness" of the French
roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The verbal time gap was given
as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly narrow roads. This will
be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer shows a 10 second gap.

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you can see very shiny spots
on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree left before the double bowknot. Phil states that
you can see the melted spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as the cameraman has trouble
keep Vino in the frame.

Then the problems begin.

Armstrong seems to drop back from Beloki, who continues pressing into the turn. As he begins to set
for the turn he is closer to the center of the road than Armstrong.

He fishtales left, and Armstrong begins to make up ground, as though Beloki has hit the brakes.

The skid continues, rear tire breaking further to his left until it is obscured by Beloki's seated
body. The bike seems to continue sliding out to the left, as evidenced by his body english. He has
the front of the bike pointed well to recover, although it isn't clear he would make the turn at
this point.

While the rear wheel is behind his body (bike angled maybe 30-40 degrees), the tire appears behind
him. It has come off the rim at this point. Definitely moves off the rim and is visible as a
separate object.

The rear rim must've dug in, as at this point, it becomes airborne, swinging through the air to a
nearly 30 degree angle to the right of Beloki. It knifes down into the tarmac and the bike's forward
motion is arrested.

At this point, the bike swings over the rear rim, Beloki comes down hard on his right leg and the
damage progresses.

Armstrong in a post race interviews described Beloki as hitting the brakes hard, then locking up the
rear, then rolling the tire, which seems consistent with the images.

Sad, sad stuff....

-- Jim

cyclfiend.comcyclfiend.comOpen ↗ lists.cyclofiend.comrace reportOpen ↗

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Jim Edgar
Sheldon Brown at [email hidden] wrote on 7/14/03 2:22 PM:

Quoted message said:

An anonymous poster said:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
so many broken bones with them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a brutal crash - went down
hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down
onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending like a madman. Reported
ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments had been made about the "softness" of the French
roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The verbal time gap was given
as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly narrow roads. This will
be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer shows a 10 second gap.

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you can see very shiny spots
on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree left before the double bowknot. Phil states that
you can see the melted spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as the cameraman has trouble
keep Vino in the frame.

Then the problems begin.

Armstrong seems to drop back from Beloki, who continues pressing into the turn. As he begins to set
for the turn he is closer to the center of the road than Armstrong.

He fishtales left, and Armstrong begins to make up ground, as though Beloki has hit the brakes.

The skid continues, rear tire breaking further to his left until it is obscured by Beloki's seated
body. The bike seems to continue sliding out to the left, as evidenced by his body english. He has
the front of the bike pointed well to recover, although it isn't clear he would make the turn at
this point.

While the rear wheel is behind his body (bike angled maybe 30-40 degrees), the tire appears behind
him. It has come off the rim at this point. Definitely moves off the rim and is visible as a
separate object.

The rear rim must've dug in, as at this point, it becomes airborne, swinging through the air to a
nearly 30 degree angle to the right of Beloki. It knifes down into the tarmac and the bike's forward
motion is arrested.

At this point, the bike swings over the rear rim, Beloki comes down hard on his right leg and the
damage progresses.

Armstrong in a post race interviews described Beloki as hitting the brakes hard, then locking up the
rear, then rolling the tire, which seems consistent with the images.

Sad, sad stuff....

-- Jim

cyclfiend.comcyclfiend.comOpen ↗ lists.cyclofiend.comrace reportOpen ↗

Armstrong said in his interview with Frankie Andreu that Beloki's tire rolled and THEN it blew up. No way a clincher would do that of course but Lance might not be remembering everything exactly as it happened either. I couldn't find who ONCE's tire sponsors are. Some Michelin-sponsored teams have a deal to only ride clinchers.

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote let it be known in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Followed by Armstrong plowing off the road and through a field basically down the fall line,
then hopping off the bike and running onto the road and remounting. Not quite with the smooth
cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele Pontoni or Adri van der Poel, but entertaining none the less.
He must have been [censored] bricks!

Did you catch the post-race interview with Lance? He was asked if he had done any cyclo-cross racing
this year. His answer was 'Just one race, plus today makes two'.

🙂

--

Curt Bousquet moc.enilnacs@PTNN < Reverse for email

Road biking in Southern VT and Western Mass.

My 2003 bike log: scanline.com2003.htmlOpen ↗

An anonymous poster said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
so many broken bones with them.

I commented:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

Jim Edgar said:

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a brutal crash - went
down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and
head down onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending like a madman.
Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments had been made about the "softness" of
the French roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The verbal time gap was given
as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly narrow roads. This
will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer shows a 10 second gap.

I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.

It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was trying to slow in preparation
for the turn, but he had not begun to actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe
this crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.

Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

Quoted message said:

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you can see very shiny
spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree left before the double bowknot. Phil
states that you can see the melted spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues,
"..that was a rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as the
cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time? I
have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage, which he
has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy. He's good
at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to criticize him in a public
forum like this, if it weren't for my belief that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all
cyclists on the dangers of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important topic. It might save your
life: sheldonbrown.combrakturn.htmlOpen ↗

Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, | and breeds reptiles of the mind.
| --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.

It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was trying to slow in
preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to actually lean over into the sharp part of the
turn. I believe this crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.

Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

I'm with Sheldon on this one. If you knew what you were looking for (I overslept this AM and watched
the 1100 west coast version after looking at various websites) you saw that Beloki's wheel was
momentarily stopped. THEN all hell broke loose. High sides suck!

Mike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section -

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90

degree

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted spots in the roadway,
and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that

was a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit,

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time?
I have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy.
He's good at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to criticize him in a public
forum like this, if it weren't for my belief that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all
cyclists on the dangers of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important topic. It might save your
life: sheldonbrown.combrakturn.htmlOpen ↗

Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, | and breeds reptiles of the
| mind. --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,

DiabloScott said:

Armstrong said in his interview with Frankie Andreu that Beloki's tire rolled and THEN it blew up.
No way a clincher would do that of course but Lance might not be remembering everything exactly as
it happened either.

Yeah, it's not like events were happening quickly or anything! ;-)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time?
I have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy.
He's good at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

Liggett and Sherwen sometime mention that they are commentating live, watching in the press area at
the finish on TV monitors. For the daily TV broadcasts I suspect this is probably the case, and CBS
probably just picked up the video from the UK and edited it.

He does do some overdubbing for the WCP videos, and comes here to Minnesota for those (or at
least used to).

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

An anonymous poster said:

Quoted message said:

>When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first,
>Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that
>heavy rear braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
>also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and
>he might not have so many broken bones with them.

I commented:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not

pause.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

Jim Edgar said:

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was,

however, a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on

his

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was

descending

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F).

Comments

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on

fairly

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narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer shows a 10 second gap.

I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.

It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was trying to slow in
preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to actually lean over into the sharp part of the
turn. I believe this crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.

Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

Quoted message said:

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section -

you

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can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90

degree

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left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted spots in the roadway,
and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that

was a

Quoted message said:

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rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit,

as

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the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time?
I have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy.
He's good at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

I was watching the live coverage this morning, and Phil did indeed make that comment about the
"rather dodgy corner" Vino negotiated, moments before Beloki's crash. In fact, he had commented
several times on earlier descents about the treacherous nature of the road surface, due to the
"bitumen melting" (although I doubt that was really a contributing factor).

~_-* ...G/ \G shastasoftware.comshastasoftware.comOpen ↗ Developers of CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

Quoted message said:

I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to criticize him in a public
forum like this, if it weren't for my belief that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all
cyclists on the dangers of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important topic. It might save your
life: sheldonbrown.combrakturn.htmlOpen ↗

Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, | and breeds reptiles of the
| mind. --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
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Sheldon Brown said:

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time?
I have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy.
He's good at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

I've watched both the live and evening replay coverage of several stages and the Phil/Paul voiceover
of actual race coverage is exactly the same. The sequence of intro/outro bits, Frankie Andreu
interludes, etc changes, and they edit out some of the race to fit into the evening timeslot.

Quoted message said:

I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to criticize him in a public
forum like this, if it weren't for my belief that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all
cyclists on the dangers of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

Quoted message said:

Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important topic. It might save your
life: sheldonbrown.combrakturn.htmlOpen ↗

I'm sure you're right that he braked and locked up the rear wheel, esp. as he wasn't very far into
the turn. It is possible to skid the rear on hairpins without rear braking, especially if the road
is slick or loose. At least, I think I've done it, but frankly my memory is mostly of thinking
"Shi-i-i-it!" I have also lost it badly in a turn due to inappropriate rear braking, but fortunately
low-sided rather than high-sided. Nothing about it felt fortunate at the time.