General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

High triglycerides. Cut on sat fats OR cut on carbs?

Started by Enrico C · · Last activity · 35 posts · 1,436 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
18 June 2005
Last activity
21 June 2005
Original author
Enrico C
Posts
35
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
1,436
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 35
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. What would you recommend to people with high triglycerides?

    1) If you are overweight, exercise and reduce calories from all sources.
    Specifically cut on alchool and saturated fats and chol, replacing sat
    fats with mono and polyunsaturated fats (not with carbs!)
    (AHA approach, at least as I understand it from
    http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4778 )

    2) Specifically cut on carbs. Exercise. Use fish oil.
    (Dr Mercola' approach, at least as I understand it from
    http://www.mercola.com/2003/oct/25/carbs_triglycerides.htm )

  2. Enrico C wrote:
    :: What would you recommend to people with high triglycerides?
    ::
    :: 1) If you are overweight, exercise and reduce calories from all
    :: sources. Specifically cut on alchool and saturated fats and chol,
    :: replacing sat fats with mono and polyunsaturated fats (not with
    :: carbs!) (AHA approach, at least as I understand it from
    :: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4778 )
    ::
    :: 2) Specifically cut on carbs. Exercise. Use fish oil.
    :: (Dr Mercola' approach, at least as I understand it from
    :: http://www.mercola.com/2003/oct/25/carbs_triglycerides.htm )

    Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean context.
    The current Joslin diabetes center recommendation agree with this suggestion
    although they don't use the word Mediterranean.

    http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml

    --
    Juhana

  3. On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean context.
    The current Joslin diabetes center recommendation agree with this suggestion
    although they don't use the word Mediterranean.

    http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml

    Dr Sears claims that "Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)".

    What do reckon?
    Anyway, Sear's Zone is not *that far* from a "traditional Mediterranean
    diet", well a "reduced carbs" one at least! 🙂

    From Dr Sear's official site:

    http://www.drsears.com/drsearspages/zonemondaypage.jsp
    Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)
    By Dr. Barry Sears

    The Joslin Diabetes Center, which is affiliated with Harvard Medical
    School, is the leading diabetic research center in the world. Therefore
    dietary recommendations that the Joslin Center puts out to their patients
    reverberate in the diabetic world. After decades of supporting the
    high-carbohydrate dietary recommendations of the American Diabetes
    Association (ADA), the Joslin Center is suddenly breaking ranks by
    endorsing a dietary program that is suspiciously similar to the Zone Diet.
    The "new" recommendations of the Joslin Center call for 40 percent of
    calories coming from carbohydrates, about 30 percent from protein, and
    about 30 percent from fat. If these recommendations sound like the Zone
    Diet, they are. Even though all the scientific data supporting these new
    recommendations have been continuously mentioned in my books over the past
    10 years, unfortunately Joslin never mentions the Z word. Maybe no one at
    the Joslin Center reads popular books on science, although it is finally
    clear that they are reading the same scientific publications that I do. Who
    knows, maybe next they will be recommending high-dose fish oil.

    ========================================

    http://www.drsears.com/drsearspages/dietcomparisons.jsp
    Mediterranean diet This is the diet used in the Lyon Diet Heart Study,
    which demonstrated a 65 percent reduction in fatal heart attacks compared
    to a control group who followed the American Heart Association diet. Like
    the Zone, the Mediterranean diet keeps saturated fat intake low, stresses
    the increased consumption of fruits and vegetables, and the liberal
    consumption of Omega-3 fats. As good as these recommendations are, the Zone
    actually encourages the consumption of even more fruits and vegetables than
    the Mediterranean diet, with a corresponding decrease in the intake of
    unfavorable grains and starches. Therefore, the Zone will lower insulin to
    a far greater extent. The Zone also recommends even more long-chain Omega-3
    fats than the Mediterranean diet, which is important for the
    cardiovascular, immune and nervous systems. You should consider the
    Mediterranean diet as a less sophisticated version of the Zone.

    When compared to all of the popular diets, the Mediterranean diet is the
    most similar to the Zone in terms of balance and moderation coupled with
    common sense. However, the Zone would lower insulin levels to an even
    greater extent than the Mediterranean diet because of its increased fruit
    and vegetable consumption and corresponding decrease in the intake of
    grains and starches. The Zone would also have more long-chain Omega-3 fats
    than the Mediterranean diet does. Finally, you would consume fewer total
    calories (thereby increasing longevity) following the Zone compared to the
    Mediterranean diet. Considering all the improved hormonal benefits of the
    Zone compared to these other popular diets, why would you want to try any
    other dietary program?

    ==============================================

  4. Enrico C wrote:
    :: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    :: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    :: [...]
    ::
    ::: Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean
    ::: context. The current Joslin diabetes center recommendations agree
    ::: with this suggestion although they don't use the word Mediterranean.
    :::
    ::: http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml
    ::
    :: Dr Sears claims that "Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)".
    ::
    :: What do reckon?
    :: Anyway, Sear's Zone is not *that far* from a "traditional
    :: Mediterranean diet", well a "reduced carbs" one at least! 🙂
    ::
    :: From Dr Sear's official site:
    :: [...]

    I would rather use first hand sources. :-)

    :: When compared to all of the popular diets, the Mediterranean diet is
    :: the most similar to the Zone in terms of balance and moderation
    :: coupled with common sense. [...]

    That is not true. The traditional Mediterranean diets are low protein,
    moderate to high fat and moderate to high carbohydrate diets while Zone is
    high carb. The thing I don't like in Zone is that it is recommended for
    everyone. I think that it is too high in protein for an average person.

    --
    Juhana

  5. Juhana Harju wrote:
    :: Enrico C wrote:
    :::: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    :::: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    :::: [...]
    ::::
    ::::: Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean
    ::::: context. The current Joslin diabetes center recommendations agree
    ::::: with this suggestion although they don't use the word
    ::::: Mediterranean.
    :::::
    ::::: http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml
    ::::
    :::: Dr Sears claims that "Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)".
    ::::
    :::: What do reckon?
    :::: Anyway, Sear's Zone is not *that far* from a "traditional
    :::: Mediterranean diet", well a "reduced carbs" one at least! 🙂
    ::::
    :::: From Dr Sear's official site:
    :::: [...]
    ::
    :: I would rather use first hand sources. :-)
    ::
    :::: When compared to all of the popular diets, the Mediterranean diet
    :::: is the most similar to the Zone in terms of balance and moderation
    :::: coupled with common sense. [...]
    ::
    :: That is not true. The traditional Mediterranean diets are low
    :: protein, moderate to high fat and moderate to high carbohydrate
    :: diets while Zone is high carb. The thing I don't like in Zone is
    :: that it is recommended for everyone. I think that it is too high in
    :: protein for an average person.

    Correction: I ment to say that Zone is high protein, of course.

    --
    Juhana

  6. On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:49:49 +0200, Enrico C wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean context.
    The current Joslin diabetes center recommendation agree with this suggestion
    although they don't use the word Mediterranean.

    http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml

    Dr Sears claims that "Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)".

    What do reckon?
    Anyway, Sear's Zone is not *that far* from a "traditional Mediterranean
    diet", well a "reduced carbs" one at least! 🙂

    I meant: it seems to me that the Zone is not as far from a Mediterranean
    diet as some very low carb diets are. And quite similar in several key
    foods too, such as: vegetables and fruit, nuts, fish, legumes, olive oil
    rather than butter, complex carbs rather simple sugars, lean meat rather
    than fatty meat.
    Suggested quantities of some of those foods, other foods in the diet, and
    suggested percentages of macronutrients, are different, though.

  7. Enrico C wrote:
    :: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:49:49 +0200, Enrico C wrote in
    :: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    ::
    ::: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    ::: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    ::: [...]
    :::
    :::: Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean
    :::: context. The current Joslin diabetes center recommendation agree
    :::: with this suggestion although they don't use the word
    :::: Mediterranean.
    ::::
    :::: http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml
    :::
    ::: Dr Sears claims that "Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)".
    :::
    ::: What do reckon?
    ::: Anyway, Sear's Zone is not *that far* from a "traditional
    ::: Mediterranean diet", well a "reduced carbs" one at least! 🙂
    ::
    :: I meant: it seems to me that the Zone is not as far from a
    :: Mediterranean diet as some very low carb diets are. And quite
    :: similar in several key foods too, such as: vegetables and fruit,
    :: nuts, fish, legumes, olive oil rather than butter, complex carbs
    :: rather simple sugars, lean meat rather than fatty meat.
    :: Suggested quantities of some of those foods, other foods in the
    :: diet, and suggested percentages of macronutrients, are different,
    :: though.

    Yes, I understand and I agree.

    --
    Juhana

  8. On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:41:06 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:

    Enrico C wrote:
    :: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    :: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    :: [...]
    ::
    ::: Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean
    ::: context. The current Joslin diabetes center recommendations agree
    ::: with this suggestion although they don't use the word Mediterranean.
    :::
    ::: http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml
    ::
    :: Dr Sears claims that "Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)".
    ::
    :: What do reckon?
    :: Anyway, Sear's Zone is not *that far* from a "traditional
    :: Mediterranean diet", well a "reduced carbs" one at least! 🙂
    ::
    :: From Dr Sear's official site:
    :: [...]

    I would rather use first hand sources. :-)

    Well, about the Zone... that's first hand! 😉
    There are some details Dr Sears overlooks, though, that make Joslin guide
    lines different from the Zone, in my view. The first that comes to mind, is
    that Joslin is for diabetes (and prediabetes with obesity), not for
    everyone. The second one, Joslin recommends caution (with protein intake)
    to people with renal problems. And so on...

    Quoted message said:


    :: When compared to all of the popular diets, the Mediterranean diet is
    :: the most similar to the Zone in terms of balance and moderation
    :: coupled with common sense. [...]

    That is not true. The traditional Mediterranean diets are low protein,
    moderate to high fat and moderate to high carbohydrate diets while Zone is
    high protein. [as corrected by you].

    Quoted message said:

    The thing I don't like in Zone is that it is recommended for
    everyone.

    That's it. It may be the right diet for someone, not for everyone. 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    I think that it is too high in protein for an average person.

    Actually, the Zone is too high in protein for myself too.
    Nevertheless, the suggested protein/carbohydrate ratio (0.75) can be as low
    as 0.6 for some people, and as high as 1 for others.
    That already changes the Zone from C:P:F 40:30:30 to a range varying from
    46:27:27 to 33:33:33.
    Then, it seem to me that Dr Sears sort of "corrected" his diet saying that
    when you are lean or an athlet you can add as much monounsaturated fat as
    you need to increase your caloric intake. Thus, if you double your intakeo
    of fat, for instance, the Zone becomes something from C:P:F 36:21:43 to
    25:25:50 !

    --
    Enrico C

  9. On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:

    Enrico C wrote:
    :: What would you recommend to people with high triglycerides?
    ::
    :: 1) If you are overweight, exercise and reduce calories from all
    :: sources. Specifically cut on alchool and saturated fats and chol,
    :: replacing sat fats with mono and polyunsaturated fats (not with
    :: carbs!) (AHA approach, at least as I understand it from
    :: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4778 )
    ::
    :: 2) Specifically cut on carbs. Exercise. Use fish oil.
    :: (Dr Mercola' approach, at least as I understand it from
    :: http://www.mercola.com/2003/oct/25/carbs_triglycerides.htm )

    Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean context.

    Thank you!

    Actually it's not for myself, my triglies are already low fortunately 🙂
    Just trying to figure out things...

    Apparently, both recommendations make sense.

    On the one hand, I gather that some saturated fatty acids, especially
    palmitic or myristic, increase VLDL, which carry triglycerides. So cutting
    on sat fatty acids and replacing them with mono and polyunsaturated fatty
    acids makes sense to me. (Yet I wonder: why cutting on *all* saturated
    fatty acids?)

    On the other hand, I gather that high insulin may raise triglyceride
    synthesis. (Did I get that fact right?) Thus, cutting on carbs in excess
    (and choosing the "best" carbs, the ones with low glycemic index, for
    instance) also makes sense. (Yet I wonder: what is the "excess threshold"
    in carbs.

    Then, both cutting on sat fat and on hi-glycemic index carbs seems to me a
    good idea in case of overweight, as they are both non-essential, and not
    very satiating (in relation to their caloric value) on the long run - I
    gather - as opposite to protein and hi-fiber carbs, right?

    I hope I haven't messed up things!

    Quoted message said:

    Well,
    The current Joslin diabetes center recommendation agree with this suggestion
    although they don't use the word Mediterranean.

    http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml

    --

  10. Juhana Harju said:

    Juhana Harju wrote:
    :: Enrico C wrote:
    :::: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    :::: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    :::: [...]
    ::::
    ::::: Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean
    ::::: context. The current Joslin diabetes center recommendations agree
    ::::: with this suggestion although they don't use the word
    ::::: Mediterranean.
    :::::
    ::::: http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml
    ::::
    :::: Dr Sears claims that "Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)".
    ::::
    :::: What do reckon?
    :::: Anyway, Sear's Zone is not *that far* from a "traditional
    :::: Mediterranean diet", well a "reduced carbs" one at least! 🙂
    ::::
    :::: From Dr Sear's official site:
    :::: [...]
    ::
    :: I would rather use first hand sources. :-)
    ::
    :::: When compared to all of the popular diets, the Mediterranean diet
    :::: is the most similar to the Zone in terms of balance and moderation
    :::: coupled with common sense. [...]
    ::
    :: That is not true. The traditional Mediterranean diets are low
    :: protein, moderate to high fat and moderate to high carbohydrate
    :: diets while Zone is high carb. The thing I don't like in Zone is
    :: that it is recommended for everyone. I think that it is too high in
    :: protein for an average person.

    Correction: I ment to say that Zone is high protein, of course.

    --
    Juhana

    Correction both of you: the traditional Mediterranean diets are low
    ANIMAL protein. Whole grains, vegetables, fruit; all have protein,
    which the Mediterranean diet supplements with SOME animal protein from
    dairy, meat, seafood and fish.

    Zee

  11. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: Juhana Harju wrote:
    ::: Juhana Harju wrote:
    ::::: Enrico C wrote:
    ::::::: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    ::::::: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    ::::::: [...]
    :::::::
    :::::::: Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the
    :::::::: Mediterranean context. The current Joslin diabetes center
    :::::::: recommendations agree with this suggestion although they don't
    :::::::: use the word Mediterranean.
    ::::::::
    :::::::: http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml
    :::::::
    ::::::: Dr Sears claims that "Joslin endorses the Zone (kind of)".
    :::::::
    ::::::: What do reckon?
    ::::::: Anyway, Sear's Zone is not *that far* from a "traditional
    ::::::: Mediterranean diet", well a "reduced carbs" one at least! 🙂
    :::::::
    ::::::: From Dr Sear's official site:
    ::::::: [...]
    :::::
    ::::: I would rather use first hand sources. :-)
    :::::
    ::::::: When compared to all of the popular diets, the Mediterranean
    ::::::: diet is the most similar to the Zone in terms of balance and
    ::::::: moderation coupled with common sense. [...]
    :::::
    ::::: That is not true. The traditional Mediterranean diets are low
    ::::: protein, moderate to high fat and moderate to high carbohydrate
    ::::: diets while Zone is high carb. The thing I don't like in Zone is
    ::::: that it is recommended for everyone. I think that it is too high
    ::::: in protein for an average person.
    :::
    ::: Correction: I ment to say that Zone is high protein, of course.
    :::
    ::: --
    ::: Juhana
    ::
    ::
    :: Correction both of you: the traditional Mediterranean diets are low
    :: ANIMAL protein. Whole grains, vegetables, fruit; all have protein,
    :: which the Mediterranean diet supplements with SOME animal protein
    :: from dairy, meat, seafood and fish.
    ::
    :: Zee

    I don't agree with you, Zee. At the moment I don't have any reference to
    provide you but I have an impression that the traditional diets eaten in the
    Mediterranean are where low protein diets. The amount of protein derived
    calories was somewhere around 12% of energy which is quite low in protein.
    Whole grains, vegetables and fruit have protein but still most of their
    energy comes from carbs. Perhaps I'll find a source to back my view.

    --
    Juhana

  12. On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:39:11 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [47 quoted lines suppressed]

    I don't agree with you, Zee. At the moment I don't have any reference to
    provide you but I have an impression that the traditional diets eaten in the
    Mediterranean are where low protein diets. The amount of protein derived
    calories was somewhere around 12% of energy which is quite low in protein.
    Whole grains, vegetables and fruit have protein but still most of their
    energy comes from carbs. Perhaps I'll find a source to back my view.

    In Italy, year 1960, average daily intake of protein was 11,34% of total
    caloric intake, with 7,74% from vegetal protein and 6,60% animal, on a 2467
    kcal total (according to EURATOM survey, which didn't include alchool
    consumption, supposedly a 10% extra).
    I am afraid I haven't got more specific data on Southern Italy in the
    Fifties, where the "traditional Mediterranean diet" pattern most applied, I
    believe, nor on other Mediterranen countries, but I think data can be found
    on the net, here are Euroatom data on Greece 1960
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0841/is_n2_v30/ai_16904352/pg_2
    for instance .

    In the Fifties protein intake was probably lower than in the Sixties, while
    phisical work was generally harder. Since 1960, consumption of red meat has
    increased.

    I guess some traditional dishes such as "pasta e fagioli" (pasta and beans)
    in Italy, or cous cous and legumes in North African countries, are a good
    mix of vegetal protein, yet not enough to qualify that diet as "high
    protein". 🙂

  13. Enrico C wrote:
    :: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:39:11 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    :: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    :::: [47 quoted lines suppressed]
    :::
    ::: I don't agree with you, Zee. At the moment I don't have any
    ::: reference to provide you but I have an impression that the
    ::: traditional diets eaten in the Mediterranean are where low protein
    ::: diets. The amount of protein derived calories was somewhere around
    ::: 12% of energy which is quite low in protein. Whole grains,
    ::: vegetables and fruit have protein but still most of their energy
    ::: comes from carbs. Perhaps I'll find a source to back my view.
    ::
    :: In Italy, year 1960, average daily intake of protein was 11,34% of
    :: total caloric intake, with 7,74% from vegetal protein and 6,60%
    :: animal, on a 2467 kcal total (according to EURATOM survey, which
    :: didn't include alchool consumption, supposedly a 10% extra).
    :: I am afraid I haven't got more specific data on Southern Italy in the
    :: Fifties, where the "traditional Mediterranean diet" pattern most
    :: applied, I believe, nor on other Mediterranen countries, but I think
    :: data can be found on the net, here are Euroatom data on Greece 1960
    ::
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0841/is_n2_v30/ai_16904352/pg_2
    :: for instance .

    Thanks for the data. I think that the same applies also to Greece and Crete,
    which probably had the healthiest diet of the area.

    :: In the Fifties protein intake was probably lower than in the
    :: Sixties, while phisical work was generally harder. Since 1960,
    :: consumption of red meat has increased.

    That is correct. In Greece and Crete the diet is deteriorating and the
    cardiovascular diseases are increasing.

    :: I guess some traditional dishes such as "pasta e fagioli" (pasta and
    :: beans) in Italy, or cous cous and legumes in North African
    :: countries, are a good mix of vegetal protein, yet not enough to
    :: qualify that diet as "high protein". 🙂

    --
    Juhana

  14. Enrico C wrote:
    :: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:07:48 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    :: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    ::
    ::: Enrico C wrote:
    ::::: What would you recommend to people with high triglycerides?
    :::::
    ::::: 1) If you are overweight, exercise and reduce calories from all
    ::::: sources. Specifically cut on alchool and saturated fats and chol,
    ::::: replacing sat fats with mono and polyunsaturated fats (not with
    ::::: carbs!) (AHA approach, at least as I understand it from
    ::::: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4778 )
    :::::
    ::::: 2) Specifically cut on carbs. Exercise. Use fish oil.
    ::::: (Dr Mercola' approach, at least as I understand it from
    ::::: http://www.mercola.com/2003/oct/25/carbs_triglycerides.htm )
    :::
    ::: Make a combination of both and cut carbs within the Mediterranean
    ::: context.
    ::
    :: Thank you!
    ::
    :: Actually it's not for myself, my triglies are already low
    :: fortunately 🙂 Just trying to figure out things...
    ::
    :: Apparently, both recommendations make sense.
    ::
    :: On the one hand, I gather that some saturated fatty acids,
    :: especially palmitic or myristic, increase VLDL, which carry
    :: triglycerides. So cutting on sat fatty acids and replacing them with
    :: mono and polyunsaturated fatty acids makes sense to me. (Yet I
    :: wonder: why cutting on *all* saturated fatty acids?)
    ::
    :: On the other hand, I gather that high insulin may raise triglyceride
    :: synthesis. (Did I get that fact right?) Thus, cutting on carbs in
    :: excess (and choosing the "best" carbs, the ones with low glycemic
    :: index, for instance) also makes sense. (Yet I wonder: what is the
    :: "excess threshold" in carbs.
    ::
    :: Then, both cutting on sat fat and on hi-glycemic index carbs seems
    :: to me a good idea in case of overweight, as they are both
    :: non-essential, and not very satiating (in relation to their caloric
    :: value) on the long run - I gather - as opposite to protein and
    :: hi-fiber carbs, right?
    ::
    :: I hope I haven't messed up things!

    In addition to a good diet reducing caloric intake is very important. And so
    is controlling calories eaten at one time. High triglyserides is usually a
    sign that the caloric intake exceeds the need. The solution is to reduce
    caloric intake and eat many small meals with small portion sizes and low
    glycemic index (or load). Plus daily exercise.

    ::: Well,
    ::: The current Joslin diabetes center recommendation agree with this
    ::: suggestion although they don't use the word Mediterranean.
    :::
    ::: http://joslin.org/news/nutritionarticle.shtml
    ::
    ::
    :: --

    --
    Juhana

  15. On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:32:39 +0200, Enrico C wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:

    In Italy, year 1960, average daily intake of protein was 11,34% of total
    caloric intake, with 7,74% from vegetal protein and 6,60% animal,

    Correction. That should read: "3.60% animal".

  16. On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:39:11 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [47 quoted lines suppressed]

    I don't agree with you, Zee. At the moment I don't have any reference to
    provide you but I have an impression that the traditional diets eaten in the
    Mediterranean are where low protein diets. The amount of protein derived
    calories was somewhere around 12% of energy which is quite low in protein.
    Whole grains, vegetables and fruit have protein but still most of their
    energy comes from carbs. Perhaps I'll find a source to back my view.

    In Italy, year 1960, average daily intake of protein was 11,34% of total
    caloric intake, with 7,74% from vegetal protein and 3,60% animal, on a 2467
    kcal total (according to EURATOM survey, which didn't include alchool
    consumption, supposedly a 10% extra).
    I am afraid I haven't got more specific data on Southern Italy in the
    Fifties, where the "traditional Mediterranean diet" pattern most applied, I
    believe, nor on other Mediterranen countries, but I think data can be found
    on the net, here are Euroatom data on Greece 1960
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0841/is_n2_v30/ai_16904352/pg_2
    for instance .

    In the Fifties protein intake was probably lower than in the Sixties, while
    phisical work was generally harder. Since 1960, consumption of red meat has
    increased.

    I guess some traditional dishes such as "pasta e fagioli" (pasta and beans)
    in Italy, or cous cous and legumes in North African countries, are a good
    mix of vegetal protein, yet not enough to qualify that diet as "high
    protein". 🙂

  17. Juhana Harju said:

    Enrico C wrote:
    :: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:39:11 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    :: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    :::: [47 quoted lines suppressed]
    :::
    ::: I don't agree with you, Zee. At the moment I don't have any
    ::: reference to provide you but I have an impression that the
    ::: traditional diets eaten in the Mediterranean are where low protein
    ::: diets. The amount of protein derived calories was somewhere around
    ::: 12% of energy which is quite low in protein. Whole grains,
    ::: vegetables and fruit have protein but still most of their energy
    ::: comes from carbs. Perhaps I'll find a source to back my view.
    ::
    :: In Italy, year 1960, average daily intake of protein was 11,34% of
    :: total caloric intake, with 7,74% from vegetal protein and 6,60%
    :: animal, on a 2467 kcal total (according to EURATOM survey, which
    :: didn't include alchool consumption, supposedly a 10% extra).
    :: I am afraid I haven't got more specific data on Southern Italy in the
    :: Fifties, where the "traditional Mediterranean diet" pattern most
    :: applied, I believe, nor on other Mediterranen countries, but I think
    :: data can be found on the net, here are Euroatom data on Greece 1960
    ::
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0841/is_n2_v30/ai_16904352/pg_2
    :: for instance .

    Thanks for the data. I think that the same applies also to Greece and Crete,
    which probably had the healthiest diet of the area.

    :: In the Fifties protein intake was probably lower than in the
    :: Sixties, while phisical work was generally harder. Since 1960,
    :: consumption of red meat has increased.

    That is correct. In Greece and Crete the diet is deteriorating and the
    cardiovascular diseases are increasing.

    :: I guess some traditional dishes such as "pasta e fagioli" (pasta and
    :: beans) in Italy, or cous cous and legumes in North African
    :: countries, are a good mix of vegetal protein, yet not enough to
    :: qualify that diet as "high protein". 🙂

    --
    Juhana

    I think it must have been higher than 12 per cent. They ate sheep and
    goat's cheeses, and yogurt, small fish like anchovies; tuna and other
    seafood
    seafood like squid. And then, those ambrosial creme and nut filled
    pastries.

    Today, I cooked 100 grams of pasta for dinner. In that 100 grams,
    without anything else added, I had about 15 grams of protein. Then, I
    added a two small tinned anchovy, 1/3 tin tuna, and less than 1/2 ounce
    of bocalini mozzarella (sorry no Greek cheese). I estimate my meat
    protein was 3 ounces in total. Perhaps another 25 grams of protein.

    I realize this is probably not what someone in Crete ate in 1945. In
    fact, I suspect they may have had more protein, finished off as it
    would have been with the pastries. I will make do with dried figs and a
    few walnuts. (More protein).

    Ahhh...and my pasta also had one plum tomato, a shallot, two cloves
    garlic, and a teaspoon of capers.

    The Mediteranean countries demand high protein content Duram wheat
    (Manitoba No.1 Hard) for their pastas. This began after WW11, but
    still...

    Find the studies Juhana!

    Zee

  18. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: Juhana Harju wrote:
    ::: Enrico C wrote:
    ::::: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:39:11 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    ::::: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    :::::: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::::::: [47 quoted lines suppressed]
    ::::::
    :::::: I don't agree with you, Zee. At the moment I don't have any
    :::::: reference to provide you but I have an impression that the
    :::::: traditional diets eaten in the Mediterranean are where low
    :::::: protein diets. The amount of protein derived calories was
    :::::: somewhere around 12% of energy which is quite low in protein.
    :::::: Whole grains, vegetables and fruit have protein but still most
    :::::: of their energy comes from carbs. Perhaps I'll find a source to
    :::::: back my view.
    :::::
    ::::: In Italy, year 1960, average daily intake of protein was 11,34% of
    ::::: total caloric intake, with 7,74% from vegetal protein and 6,60%
    ::::: animal, on a 2467 kcal total (according to EURATOM survey, which
    ::::: didn't include alchool consumption, supposedly a 10% extra).
    ::::: I am afraid I haven't got more specific data on Southern Italy in
    ::::: the Fifties, where the "traditional Mediterranean diet" pattern
    ::::: most applied, I believe, nor on other Mediterranen countries, but
    ::::: I think data can be found on the net, here are Euroatom data on
    ::::: Greece 1960
    :::::
    :::
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0841/is_n2_v30/ai_16904352/pg_2
    ::::: for instance .
    :::
    ::: Thanks for the data. I think that the same applies also to Greece
    ::: and Crete, which probably had the healthiest diet of the area.
    :::
    ::::: In the Fifties protein intake was probably lower than in the
    ::::: Sixties, while phisical work was generally harder. Since 1960,
    ::::: consumption of red meat has increased.
    :::
    ::: That is correct. In Greece and Crete the diet is deteriorating and
    ::: the cardiovascular diseases are increasing.
    :::
    ::::: I guess some traditional dishes such as "pasta e fagioli" (pasta
    ::::: and beans) in Italy, or cous cous and legumes in North African
    ::::: countries, are a good mix of vegetal protein, yet not enough to
    ::::: qualify that diet as "high protein". 🙂
    :::
    ::: --
    ::: Juhana
    ::
    ::
    :: I think it must have been higher than 12 per cent. They ate sheep and
    :: goat's cheeses, and yogurt, small fish like anchovies; tuna and other
    :: seafood seafood like squid. And then, those ambrosial creme and nut
    :: filled pastries.
    ::
    :: Today, I cooked 100 grams of pasta for dinner. In that 100 grams,
    :: without anything else added, I had about 15 grams of protein. Then, I
    :: added a two small tinned anchovy, 1/3 tin tuna, and less than 1/2
    :: ounce of bocalini mozzarella (sorry no Greek cheese). I estimate my
    :: meat protein was 3 ounces in total. Perhaps another 25 grams of
    :: protein.
    ::
    :: I realize this is probably not what someone in Crete ate in 1945. In
    :: fact, I suspect they may have had more protein, finished off as it
    :: would have been with the pastries. I will make do with dried figs
    :: and a few walnuts. (More protein).
    ::
    :: Ahhh...and my pasta also had one plum tomato, a shallot, two cloves
    :: garlic, and a teaspoon of capers.
    ::
    :: The Mediteranean countries demand high protein content Duram wheat
    :: (Manitoba No.1 Hard) for their pastas. This began after WW11, but
    :: still...
    ::
    :: Find the studies Juhana!

    The low protein content of the traditional Mediterranean diets is something
    that I have come across while reading literature. You may not realize how
    much the Mediterraneans used to eat vegetables, fruits and grains. Have you
    ever visited Italy or Greece? Have you eaten pasta with pasta sauce in Italy
    or stuffed tomatoes and peppers in Crete? Or seen the fresh fruits which are
    always there in the table? Why is not the data provided by Enrico enough for
    you?

    --
    Juhana

  19. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: Juhana Harju wrote:
    ::: Enrico C wrote:
    ::::: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:39:11 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    ::::: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    :::::: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::::::: [47 quoted lines suppressed]
    ::::::
    :::::: I don't agree with you, Zee. At the moment I don't have any
    :::::: reference to provide you but I have an impression that the
    :::::: traditional diets eaten in the Mediterranean are where low
    :::::: protein diets. The amount of protein derived calories was
    :::::: somewhere around 12% of energy which is quite low in protein.
    :::::: Whole grains, vegetables and fruit have protein but still most
    :::::: of their energy comes from carbs. Perhaps I'll find a source to
    :::::: back my view.
    :::::
    ::::: In Italy, year 1960, average daily intake of protein was 11,34% of
    ::::: total caloric intake, with 7,74% from vegetal protein and 6,60%
    ::::: animal, on a 2467 kcal total (according to EURATOM survey, which
    ::::: didn't include alchool consumption, supposedly a 10% extra).
    ::::: I am afraid I haven't got more specific data on Southern Italy in
    ::::: the Fifties, where the "traditional Mediterranean diet" pattern
    ::::: most applied, I believe, nor on other Mediterranen countries, but
    ::::: I think data can be found on the net, here are Euroatom data on
    ::::: Greece 1960
    :::::
    :::
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0841/is_n2_v30/ai_16904352/pg_2
    ::::: for instance .
    :::
    ::: Thanks for the data. I think that the same applies also to Greece
    ::: and Crete, which probably had the healthiest diet of the area.
    :::
    ::::: In the Fifties protein intake was probably lower than in the
    ::::: Sixties, while phisical work was generally harder. Since 1960,
    ::::: consumption of red meat has increased.
    :::
    ::: That is correct. In Greece and Crete the diet is deteriorating and
    ::: the cardiovascular diseases are increasing.
    :::
    ::::: I guess some traditional dishes such as "pasta e fagioli" (pasta
    ::::: and beans) in Italy, or cous cous and legumes in North African
    ::::: countries, are a good mix of vegetal protein, yet not enough to
    ::::: qualify that diet as "high protein". 🙂
    :::
    :: I think it must have been higher than 12 per cent. They ate sheep and
    :: goat's cheeses, and yogurt, small fish like anchovies; tuna and other
    :: seafood
    :: seafood like squid. And then, those ambrosial creme and nut filled
    :: pastries.
    ::
    :: Today, I cooked 100 grams of pasta for dinner. In that 100 grams,
    :: without anything else added, I had about 15 grams of protein. Then, I
    :: added a two small tinned anchovy, 1/3 tin tuna, and less than 1/2
    :: ounce of bocalini mozzarella (sorry no Greek cheese). I estimate my
    :: meat protein was 3 ounces in total. Perhaps another 25 grams of
    :: protein.
    ::
    :: I realize this is probably not what someone in Crete ate in 1945. In
    :: fact, I suspect they may have had more protein, finished off as it
    :: would have been with the pastries. I will make do with dried figs
    :: and a few walnuts. (More protein).
    ::
    :: Ahhh...and my pasta also had one plum tomato, a shallot, two cloves
    :: garlic, and a teaspoon of capers.
    ::
    :: The Mediteranean countries demand high protein content Duram wheat
    :: (Manitoba No.1 Hard) for their pastas. This began after WW11, but
    :: still...
    ::
    :: Find the studies Juhana!

    The traditional Cretan diet is the blueprint of the healthy Mediterranean
    diet as the heart disease mortality has been the lowest there. Here is some
    data of the Seven Countries Study about the daily food consumption of Cretan
    men aged 40-60 years.

    *Daily food consumption* (g per d)
    Bread 380
    Cereals 30
    Potatoes 190
    Legumes 30
    Vegetables 191
    Fruit 464
    Meat 35
    Fish/seafood 18
    Eggs 25
    Cheese 13
    Milk/yogurt 235
    Oil & fats 95
    Pastries 0
    100% alcohol 15 [that is a lot!]
    Sugar products consisting of at least 60% sugar 20

    http://www.a-nutritional-supplements.com/conf04a53.htm

    --
    Juhana

  20. On 19 Jun 2005 17:26:10 -0700, [email hidden] wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Juhana Harju said:

    Enrico C wrote:
    :: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:39:11 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in
    :: <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    :::: [47 quoted lines suppressed]
    :::
    ::: I don't agree with you, Zee. At the moment I don't have any
    ::: reference to provide you but I have an impression that the
    ::: traditional diets eaten in the Mediterranean are where low protein
    ::: diets. The amount of protein derived calories was somewhere around
    ::: 12% of energy which is quite low in protein. Whole grains,
    ::: vegetables and fruit have protein but still most of their energy
    ::: comes from carbs. Perhaps I'll find a source to back my view.
    ::
    :: In Italy, year 1960, average daily intake of protein was 11,34% of
    :: total caloric intake, with 7,74% from vegetal protein and 6,60%
    :: animal, on a 2467 kcal total (according to EURATOM survey, which
    :: didn't include alchool consumption, supposedly a 10% extra).
    :: I am afraid I haven't got more specific data on Southern Italy in the
    :: Fifties, where the "traditional Mediterranean diet" pattern most
    :: applied, I believe, nor on other Mediterranen countries, but I think
    :: data can be found on the net, here are Euroatom data on Greece 1960
    ::
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0841/is_n2_v30/ai_16904352/pg_2
    :: for instance .

    Thanks for the data. I think that the same applies also to Greece and Crete,
    which probably had the healthiest diet of the area.

    :: In the Fifties protein intake was probably lower than in the
    :: Sixties, while phisical work was generally harder. Since 1960,
    :: consumption of red meat has increased.

    That is correct. In Greece and Crete the diet is deteriorating and the
    cardiovascular diseases are increasing.

    :: I guess some traditional dishes such as "pasta e fagioli" (pasta and
    :: beans) in Italy, or cous cous and legumes in North African
    :: countries, are a good mix of vegetal protein, yet not enough to
    :: qualify that diet as "high protein". 🙂

    --
    Juhana

    I think it must have been higher than 12 per cent. They ate sheep and
    goat's cheeses, and yogurt, small fish like anchovies; tuna and other
    seafood
    seafood like squid. And then, those ambrosial creme and nut filled
    pastries.

    Today, I cooked 100 grams of pasta for dinner. In that 100 grams,
    without anything else added, I had about 15 grams of protein. Then, I
    added a two small tinned anchovy, 1/3 tin tuna, and less than 1/2 ounce
    of bocalini mozzarella (sorry no Greek cheese). I estimate my meat
    protein was 3 ounces in total. Perhaps another 25 grams of protein.

    I realize this is probably not what someone in Crete ate in 1945. In
    fact, I suspect they may have had more protein, finished off as it
    would have been with the pastries. I will make do with dried figs and a
    few walnuts. (More protein).

    Ahhh...and my pasta also had one plum tomato, a shallot, two cloves
    garlic, and a teaspoon of capers.

    The Mediteranean countries demand high protein content Duram wheat
    (Manitoba No.1 Hard) for their pastas. This began after WW11, but
    still...

    Find the studies Juhana!

    Zee

    Well, I posted data from a study about Italy, that I read in a book on the
    Mediterranean Diet (by nutritionists Giuseppe Sangiorgi Cellini and
    Annamaria Toti).
    I don't know about traditional Crete in the past. (Well, Juhana has just
    posted more data on that).
    Nowadays, I noticed that they also like grilled meat in pita bread, in
    Crete, don't they? 🙂
    Consider, though, that Italy and Greece just after WWII were poor
    countries. Perhaps they would have liked to eat more animal protein, but
    they couldn't afford to, or it was just possible on Sunday lunches!?

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.