How to Refresh Legs?

rick++ said:

Quoted message said:

Over and above the obvious solutions of adequate rest and sleep, what
are you doing?

I find chronic leg fatigue to be a symptom of worn out shoes,
especially if the shoes are more than 3-4 months old.
New shoes can be a magic sometimes and feel like heaven.

Thank you.

I always think to myself at the end of 3 months, "why do my shoes feel
this way, I just got them". I expected them to last a few more months,
at least 5 months of running 3x's a week on average.

[email hidden] wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My legs are always tired to some degree.

Is there any techniques, tips or tricks I can use which will help
restore fatiged muscles?

Over and above the obvious solutions of adequate rest and sleep, what
are you doing?

Review your training to see what you are doing too much of and make
adjustments. Better yet give us some brief background and describe a
typical week or two and tell us when your legs feel tired.

OK - I have taken the last two weeks from my log which is probably
typical. Most work days I commute to work, shortest route is 7km, in
the summer I like to dissapear into the forest for an 1.5 hours on the
way home at least once a week. The commute to/from work is often at an
easy pace, if I feel good I will push it and/or take a longer route. I
aim to do one long run per week currently this is 13k and I have just
started doing 400m intervals once per week. Normally a swim session
will be a steady 2k in 35 min and also include a quick 20+ min weights
session at end.

Fri Bike 7km, Run 8km, Bike 7km
Sat Rest
Sun Run 13km, Bike 10km
Mon Run (9 x 400m), Bike 2 x 10km
Tue Bike 7km, Swim 2km, Bike 7km
Wed Bike 7km, Run 7km
Thu Swim 2km, Bike 7km
Fri Bike 2 x 7km
Sat Run 7km, Bike 2 x 7km
Sun Bike 7km, Swim 2km, Bike 3 x 7km
Mon Bike 3km, Run (6 x 400m), Bike 3km
Tue Bike 7km, Swim 2km, Bike 7km
Wed Bike 7km, Run 7km, Bike 7km
Thu Bike 7km, Swim 2km, Bike 7km
Fri Bike 7km, Run 7km, Bike 7km

You mentioned your bike commutes are at an easy pace. Particularly on a
bike, easy has many gradiants, do you use a heart rate montior (HRM)? For
example, for me both HR 120 (64% max) and 135 (72% max) still feel easy, but
I know from experience that my legs accumulate more fatigue over time riding
at 135.

What intensity are you doing your runs at? Do you separate base runs from
tempo runs?

One rest day a week is a good rule of thumb for most people, and in addition
to that it's good to clearly separate base work from intensity work, and
have very easy recovery days after intensity work on either the bike or run.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, rest is what makes you stronger. Rest is your friend not the bad
guy.

I do force myself to take rest when I feel particularly fatigued which
will probably involve a rest day followed by a couple of easy days.

Quoted message said:

-DF

rick++ wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've heard recovery periods increase with age.
When it gets more than 24 hours it accumulates
until you have a rest day.

Some older runners advocate every other day schedules
with longer runs.
I personally find take a rest day too soon makes me jumpy.
I suppose one could switch to another exercise on off days
to reduce this.

Not that old (42), but I do this 2 week cycle currently. I've debated Donnie
and others about the longer runs less frequently thing. Works for me. Since
most of my goal races are over 4 hours, I believe long runs really do work
better. The biking is done very easy to provide rest from runs, burn
calories and train general energy transport systems. If I were training for
a duathlon again, I would drop one running tempo days, and make 2 of the
biking days a bit harder, one a slightly higher though still easy pace, and
one with a solid sub LT tempo effort.

mon: bike 60-80 mins (easy)
tues: run 60-90 mins (easy)
wed: bike 80-100 mins (easy)
thur: run 80-100 mins (easy with tempo run)
fri: OFF or walk
sat: bike 60-80 mins (easy)
sun: run 3-5 hours (easy with some MP tempo)
mon: bike 50-70 mins flats only (very easy HR < 115)
tues: OFF or run 40-50 mins (very easy)
wed: bike 60-90 mins (easy)
thur: run 80-100 mins (easy with tempo)
fri: OFF if not off tues or bike 60-90 mins (easy)
sat: bike or sometimes brick workout 60-90 mins (easy)
sun: run 120-140 mins (easy with some MP tempo)

Adjust to play with what the weather gives and body tells, etc.

-Tony

I agree, but think overall you need to be working from a plan more to
avoid this type of fatigue. Planned rest and recovery is much more
effective than, "I feel tired, so I better take a day off today." Also,
I noted from a previous post that you stated, "The commute to/from work
is often at an easy pace, if I feel good I will push it and/or take a
longer route."

Overall your training plan, at least training intensities, seem
somewhat random and that's the fastest way to ineffective and/or
overtraining.

-Amie

Triathlete said:

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>My legs are always tired to some degree.
>
>Is there any techniques, tips or tricks I can use which will help
>restore fatiged muscles?
>
>Over and above the obvious solutions of adequate rest and sleep, what
>are you doing?

Review your training to see what you are doing too much of and make
adjustments. Better yet give us some brief background and describe a
typical week or two and tell us when your legs feel tired.

OK - I have taken the last two weeks from my log which is probably
typical. Most work days I commute to work, shortest route is 7km, in
the summer I like to dissapear into the forest for an 1.5 hours on the
way home at least once a week. The commute to/from work is often at an
easy pace, if I feel good I will push it and/or take a longer route. I
aim to do one long run per week currently this is 13k and I have just
started doing 400m intervals once per week. Normally a swim session
will be a steady 2k in 35 min and also include a quick 20+ min weights
session at end.

Fri Bike 7km, Run 8km, Bike 7km
Sat Rest
Sun Run 13km, Bike 10km
Mon Run (9 x 400m), Bike 2 x 10km
Tue Bike 7km, Swim 2km, Bike 7km
Wed Bike 7km, Run 7km
Thu Swim 2km, Bike 7km
Fri Bike 2 x 7km
Sat Run 7km, Bike 2 x 7km
Sun Bike 7km, Swim 2km, Bike 3 x 7km
Mon Bike 3km, Run (6 x 400m), Bike 3km
Tue Bike 7km, Swim 2km, Bike 7km
Wed Bike 7km, Run 7km, Bike 7km
Thu Bike 7km, Swim 2km, Bike 7km
Fri Bike 7km, Run 7km, Bike 7km

That's a lot of day's without rest or recovery.
I saw your post that you take rests when you feel fatigued, but I think
it is important to take recovery days and rests before you are fatigued
or close to exhaustion. I can't really do much if you do not agree with
my sentiment on this issue or follow up with rest and recovery days (2
different things).

"Triathlete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zgQse.21619

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Good point. My coach said he followed the results of a study that
showed eating after the most intense exercise, the body recovered
measurably faster. The study showed that eating an easily digestible,
healthy carb-based food within 15 minutes provided maximum benefit. Just
15 minutes - for a track workout, that's even drinking some fluids and
eating a banana before the cooldown run.

Hi Dave,
I completely forgot, yes eating a high carb snack followed in the next
hour or two by a high carb meal is very helpful. I also like Endurox. I
find the 4 to 1 ratio of Carbs to Protein, very helpful.

I know most of us do this automatically (although I don't spend money on
fancy high carb foods), my point was that maximum benefit is seen when
eating within 15 minutes. So to improve recovery, have food on hand and try
to eat a little almost as soon as you're able to stomach it without
discomfort.

Dave

David Geesaman said:

Quoted message said:

Hi Dave,
I completely forgot, yes eating a high carb snack followed in the next
hour or two by a high carb meal is very helpful. I also like Endurox. I
find the 4 to 1 ratio of Carbs to Protein, very helpful.

I know most of us do this automatically (although I don't spend money on
fancy high carb foods), my point was that maximum benefit is seen when
eating within 15 minutes.

What evidence is there that eating within 15 minutes is better than
within an hour? Where did you hear this? Or is it just your
experience?

JT

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David Geesaman wrote:
<<SNIP>> I know most of us do this automatically (although I don't
spend money on

Quoted message said:

fancy high carb foods), my point was that maximum benefit is seen when
eating within 15 minutes. So to improve recovery, have food on hand and try
to eat a little almost as soon as you're able to stomach it without
discomfort.

Dave

I have also heard of this as a method for losing weight. Apparently,
you have less appetite for food and you are burning calories at a
higher rate, immediately after exercise.

I have not tried it.

rsquared

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What evidence is there that eating within 15 minutes is better than
within an hour? Where did you hear this? Or is it just your
experience?

JT

There are two books I know of that tout this approach, both of which
support the use of the Accelerade and Endurox R4 product lines implicitly.
That caveat aside, they're both good books IMO.

"The Performance Zone: Your Nutrition Action Plan for Greater Endurance &
Sports Performance", John Ivy & Robert Portman

This one is a small book, mostly about what it calls the metabolic window
after exercise, and what to eat during and after exercise for various
sports. It has 5 pages of reference studies to back up its position, though
I already believe in the metabolic window and the Accelerade product line,
so I didn't attempt to study the references. I liked this book, simple and
to the point.

"Optimal Muscle Recovery: Your Guide to Achieving Peak Physical
Performance", Edmund R. Burke

This book is a bit longer and covers the same things in complementary
detail. It also talks about other things to help speed recovery, including a
bit about massage and supplements. It has 17 pages of references by chapter.

I don't know of competing evidence, though I'm sure it's out there. Based on
personal experience and that of my bike-racing cousin among others, I think
the metabolic window is real, and I think the Accelerade makes a difference
for exercise over 2 hours, and that Endurox helps recovery, though I mix it
with other stuff.

Stuff from their sites:
http://69.94.64.50/enduroxr4.com/pages/studies.html
http://accelerade.com/pages/studies.html

-Tony

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:10:58 GMT, "Tony"

qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What evidence is there that eating within 15 minutes is better than
within an hour? Where did you hear this? Or is it just your
experience?

JT

There are two books I know of that tout this approach, both of which
support the use of the Accelerade and Endurox R4 product lines implicitly.

Do they say "take it within 15 minutes" and if so, why?

Quoted message said:

I don't know of competing evidence, though I'm sure it's out there. Based on
personal experience and that of my bike-racing cousin among others, I think
the metabolic window is real,

My question was not about if such a window exists, but rather is it
actually as short as 15 minutes.

Quoted message said:

Stuff from their sites:
http://69.94.64.50/enduroxr4.com/pages/studies.html

Quoted message said:

http://accelerade.com/pages/studies.html

These studies seem to be saying that a mix of protein and carbs is
better than just carbs, but not that eating within 15 minutes is
better than, say, within 1 hour. So they don't answer my question.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

These studies seem to be saying that a mix of protein and carbs is
better than just carbs, but not that eating within 15 minutes is
better than, say, within 1 hour. So they don't answer my question.

The studies that I have read in Triathlete magazine, over the past year
seem to indicate this, as well as some of the books that I have read.

This loading isn't so important if you have 48 hours of recovery between
workouts, because the muscles are supposed to heal and stock up on
energy within this time period. However, if you workout for over an hour
a few times a day, or twice within 2 days, (more isn't so hard if you
are training like we are), then then replenishing these muscles stores
and taking the carb and protein is supposed to be important.

From what I have read it is important to load up in the first 15
minutes or so, and again within the next few hours. Take something like
Endurox or Gatorade Recovery drinks within 15 minutes because they are
easy to digest and fast to flow to the muscles, followed by a meal
within the next two hours of a similar ratio. This is supposed to feed
the muscles and help them to recover, heal, and store energy for your
next workout. The muscles are supposed to be very open and accepting of
these nutrients directly after a workout.

Endurox has a 4 to 1 ratio, while I believe Gatorade has a 7 to 1.

I know for myself that my body really craves Endurox right after a work
out, even though I have taken Gatorade or Accelerade and gels during the
workout. However, a half hour to an hour later, the stuff doesn't do
anything for me, and I can't swallow it because my body doesn't want it,
except on the rare occasions where even 2 hours later is ok. When I stop
taking the product because I was too lazy to make it or I wasn't around
the product after a workout, then I do feel that my recovery is longer
and it is harder to get myself out the door and get quality workouts the
next day. I like the Endurox/Accelerade product because doesn't make me
feel sugary and it doesn't give me heart burn like Gatorade can if I am
using it all the time.

Also, carbohydrates are supposed to lower the stress hormone that your
body creates during workouts. Stress hormones can wear your body down
and make you sick.

From what I have read, it seems to me that the amount of carbs burned
during a workout is greatly related to the amount ingested.

These last two paragraphs are paraphrased from what I read in Triathlete
magazine. Since I haven't been reading the magazines in order I am not
sure which month. However, I do know that they were relatively current
articles, within the last 6 months.

Tony said:

I think the Accelerade makes a difference
for exercise over 2 hours, and that Endurox helps recovery, though I mix it
with other stuff.

Hi Tony,

What do you mix your Endurox with? What is your favorite flavour?

I mix my gatorades together, and have been doing this before their new
product line came out, that basically does the same thing.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:07:38 GMT, Triathlete <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

From what I have read it is important to load up in the first 15
minutes or so,

I'm asking where you read this.

JT

Quoted message said:

Also, carbohydrates are supposed to lower the stress hormone that your
body creates during workouts. Stress hormones can wear your body down
and make you sick.

From what I have read, it seems to me that the amount of carbs burned
during a workout is greatly related to the amount ingested.

These last two paragraphs are paraphrased from what I read in Triathlete
magazine. Since I haven't been reading the magazines in order I am not
sure which month. However, I do know that they were relatively current
articles, within the last 6 months.

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Fluids
Carbohydrate
Ice Baths
Elevation

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My legs are always tired to some degree.

Is there any techniques, tips or tricks I can use which will help
restore fatiged muscles?

Over and above the obvious solutions of adequate rest and sleep, what
are you doing?

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:07:38 GMT, Triathlete <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

From what I have read it is important to load up in the first 15
minutes or so,

I'm asking where you read this.

Excuse me, I see you say the studies are in Triathlete magazine --
thanks and found something at
http://www.triathletemag.com/story.cfm?story_id=9026&publicationID=92&pageID=1729

It talks about immediate, one hour and waiting till next meal -- not
too clear to me but I'll see if I can understand it better.

JT

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Triathlete Magazine,
Chris Carmichael's Food for Fitness
Lots of other places.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:07:38 GMT, Triathlete <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

From what I have read it is important to load up in the first 15
minutes or so,

I'm asking where you read this.

JT

Quoted message said:

Also, carbohydrates are supposed to lower the stress hormone that your
body creates during workouts. Stress hormones can wear your body down
and make you sick.

From what I have read, it seems to me that the amount of carbs burned
during a workout is greatly related to the amount ingested.

These last two paragraphs are paraphrased from what I read in Triathlete
magazine. Since I haven't been reading the magazines in order I am not
sure which month. However, I do know that they were relatively current
articles, within the last 6 months.

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:07:38 GMT, Triathlete <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

From what I have read it is important to load up in the first 15
minutes or so,

I'm asking where you read this.

Excuse me, I see you say the studies are in Triathlete magazine --
thanks and found something at
http://www.triathletemag.com/story.cfm?story_id=9026&publicationID=92&pageID=1729

It talks about immediate, one hour and waiting till next meal -- not
too clear to me but I'll see if I can understand it better.

I want to clarify something I read on the webpage you have given:

"The best way to get proteins and amino acids at these times is in a
low-concentration liquid solution, because drinking is a lot easier than
eating during exercise and because the amino aids and proteins will
reach your bloodstream much faster when consumed in a drink. Influenced
by studies such as those cited above, sports drink makers are beginning
to add amino acids or proteins to their products."

The newer Triathlete magazines state that it is unclear if protein helps
or not as some studies have shown that it does help, while other studies
show it is no help or minimal. However, the Chris Carmichael book does
state a 7 to 1 ratio (carbs to protein).

What I found is that my muscle mass was able to stay relatively stable
when I take Endurox, where as it drops very easily when I do not take it.

It is very hard for me to find recovery drinks, therefore Endurox is the
only brand that I have tried. I do know of people who have taken the
Gatorade recovery drink and they like it, but they also do not like the
Endurox as much. This is sort of funny, since they introduced me to
Endurox to begin with because they really liked it. I hated it the first
time, then loved it after.

At first all I could find was Orange Endurox. Then I really liked the
different flavour of Tropical Fruit. Recently I have tried Lime. It is
very different. Lime is like drinking a sea salted (slated) margarita.
Wow. I get the craving for Mexican food when I drink it. The lime also
makes me crave salt and more drink, which may be good on a hot race day.
The Tropical Fruit quenches my thirst, which is nice after my
workouts, if I am already hydrated enough. I am sick of the Orange, but
it can be a nice change in flavour.

Triathlete wrote in message <0qMte.54102$El.11570@pd7tw1no>...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

I think the Accelerade makes a difference
for exercise over 2 hours, and that Endurox helps recovery, though I mix

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with other stuff.

Hi Tony,

What do you mix your Endurox with? What is your favorite flavour?

Usually lowfat soy milk, a few ice cubes, and some fruit in the blender. I
like fruit punch flavor most of the time, though I've had vanilla, and lemon
lime. I try to keep multiple flavors on hand. I've taken to eating lowfat
pretzels (pennysticks brand) while drinking my endurox. Like you, I didn't
like endurox at first, but now my body loves it.

-T

Quoted message said:

I mix my gatorades together, and have been doing this before their new
product line came out, that basically does the same thing.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:07:38 GMT, Triathlete <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

From what I have read it is important to load up in the first 15
minutes or so,

I'm asking where you read this.

I read it in "The Performance Zone" book. Within 15 minutes is ideal, then
the "metabolic effect" gradually goes away over the next hour.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

JT

Quoted message said:

Also, carbohydrates are supposed to lower the stress hormone that your
body creates during workouts. Stress hormones can wear your body down
and make you sick.

From what I have read, it seems to me that the amount of carbs burned
during a workout is greatly related to the amount ingested.

These last two paragraphs are paraphrased from what I read in Triathlete
magazine. Since I haven't been reading the magazines in order I am not
sure which month. However, I do know that they were relatively current
articles, within the last 6 months.

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Tony said:

Triathlete wrote in message <0qMte.54102$El.11570@pd7tw1no>...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

I think the Accelerade makes a difference
for exercise over 2 hours, and that Endurox helps recovery, though I mix

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with other stuff.

Hi Tony,

What do you mix your Endurox with? What is your favorite flavour?

Usually lowfat soy milk, a few ice cubes, and some fruit in the blender. I
like fruit punch flavor most of the time, though I've had vanilla, and lemon
lime. I try to keep multiple flavors on hand. I've taken to eating lowfat
pretzels (pennysticks brand) while drinking my endurox. Like you, I didn't
like endurox at first, but now my body loves it.

Soy milk with Endurox? At first I thought, gross. But now my body says
"hey, let's try it".

Did you like the Vanilla? I have never seen it for sale before. It seems
like a strange sports drink flavour.

I like strawberry yogurt and peanut butter covered low fat pretzels. I
found them in bulk in the grocery store. I thought they would be weird,
but they are strangely appealing and very good after the first few bites
(I had to get over the strangeness factor first). I never think I would
want them but when I do reach for them, I love them. I haven't had any
in a month, completely forgot about them until you mentioned it.