How to make the TdF interesting again?

Your a man after my own heart ! See my post: cyclingforums.comt246942 why the lance obsession on this fourm .htmlOpen ↗

Good point on reducing the riders to six to stop over bearing team tactics and allow more solo tactics and riding... I think they should also employ what the Giro did this year and built in uphill finishes on flat stages or a large hill 2km out to stop the train formations. They also used circuit based finishes to get the criterium feel to a stage finish. I was also impressed with mountain top finishes on the second to last day and also usage of the 'gravel' to Sestriere.....

The Tour is a great race but the race route stayed much the same for 20-30years and the stronger teams have mastered the tactics to win it.... like you say its the best way to win a bike race but its not making for very good racing.....

Other sports have made changes to stop similar tactics creating boring racing and less viewers... ie F1 and the draft system in football...

Eldron said:

I've been following the TdF for about 20 years now and am getting a bit bored.... Gone are the days of aggressive racing, epic mountain stages and romantically chaotic racing.

So how do we get it back?

Drop the teams to 6 riders I say!

I'm sick of watching Fassa 'deliver' Ale Jet to the 300m mark, tired of watching Discovery 'deliver' Armstrong to the 2km from mountain top finish, tired of watching one team control a 200km+ stage.

If we dropped the teams to 6 riders they would not be able to strangle hold a race.

Much as I realise this is no doubt the best way to win at bike racing it's made it boring as hell. The only interesting racing these days are the classics....

Whatdya think?

I think team radios have a lot to do with it. Those wondeful chaotic attacks, not knowing for minutes how far up the road an attack is going, where you other teammates are, all of those things are lost with radios.

The strength of Postal and Fassa are responsible for the delivery system. And the fact that Cipollini for sprints and Armstrong for climbs perfected a system. BTW, Armstrong stole the system from Merck who was not an exceptional climber but who had gregarios to keep the pace so fast on the flats and the beginning of the climbs that the little climbers were often weary for the explosive attack on the steeps.

I think reducing the team to maybe 7 is an idea. 6 Isnt enough I think.

The race will be more chaotic (which, to me, is not an improvement) when LA finishes his domination after the end of this Tour. Unlike some prior champions, LA is stronger than his meaningful GC competitors in each of TTT, ITT and climbing. He also had nurtured a great team to support him. So, that equates to dominance.

Other things that have reduced chaos:

-- Strategy, perfected by LA, of reconnaissance on stages.
-- More calculating and effective directeur sportifs
-- Prevalence of technology, which can be an equating factor in some respects
-- Pro Tour, in that it is harder for smaller teams to get into the Tour and be a disruptive factor

[font=Times New Roman]I think you also might find that there will be less fear of Armstrong and team this year as he will not be racing again..... previous years a recalcitrant rider/s would always fear reprise in future races..... that cant happen anymore..... BH and EM used to have the same strangled hold on the psychology of riders.... [/font]

musette said:

The race will be more chaotic (which, to me, is not an improvement) when LA finishes his domination after the end of this Tour. Unlike some prior champions, LA is stronger than his meaningful GC competitors in each of TTT, ITT and climbing. He also had nurtured a great team to support him. So, that equates to dominance.

Other things that have reduced chaos:

-- Strategy, perfected by LA, of reconnaissance on stages.
-- More calculating and effective directeur sportifs
-- Prevalence of technology, which can be an equating factor in some respects
-- Pro Tour, in that it is harder for smaller teams to get into the Tour and be a disruptive factor

Agreed, but is says something about the dominance of a team.............One more boring tour and it's yours😎

whiteboytrash said:

Your a man after my own heart ! See my post: cyclingforums.comt246942 why the lance obsession on this fourm .htmlOpen ↗

Good point on reducing the riders to six to stop over bearing team tactics and allow more solo tactics and riding... I think they should also employ what the Giro did this year and built in uphill finishes on flat stages or a large hill 2km out to stop the train formations. They also used circuit based finishes to get the criterium feel to a stage finish. I was also impressed with mountain top finishes on the second to last day and also usage of the 'gravel' to Sestriere.....

The Tour is a great race but the race route stayed much the same for 20-30years and the stronger teams have mastered the tactics to win it.... like you say its the best way to win a bike race but its not making for very good racing.....

Other sports have made changes to stop similar tactics creating boring racing and less viewers... ie F1 and the draft system in football...

MJtje said:

Agreed, but is says something about the dominance of a team.............One more boring tour and it's yours😎

I hate the fact that not only do they use the team radios, but reading some of the stuff in the first Armstrong book, you know that the rider's cadence, speed, and heartrate are all transmitted back to the Directeur in the car.

Directeurs can issue commands like "You are only at 85% of Max HearRate, and are 30 seconds up on the split time of your rival. Increase your cadence by 5 rpm and sustain that for the next 5KM."

That's not racing. That is [censored].

Bring back the days of riders like Hinault, Merckx, and Sean Kelly. At least the races were interesting.

cheers...

strummer_fan said:

I hate the fact that not only do they use the team radios, but reading some of the stuff in the first Armstrong book, you know that the rider's cadence, speed, and heartrate are all transmitted back to the Directeur in the car.

Directeurs can issue commands like "You are only at 85% of Max HearRate, and are 30 seconds up on the split time of your rival. Increase your cadence by 5 rpm and sustain that for the next 5KM."

That's not racing. That is [censored].

Bring back the days of riders like Hinault, Merckx, and Sean Kelly. At least the races were interesting.

cheers...

I agree. I'm completely against team radios. As technology progresses, there'll be very little as aggressive DS won't be able to record from his and his opponents riders.

I also think Le Tour needs to be a little braver about mixing things up. In the early days, the format of the Tour often changed. One year, all the flat stages were TTTs. I'm saying that is a good idea, but it just goes to show that a little change won't necessarily hurt. I'd like to see some more pave just 2.4 kms? come on!). I'd like to see a two-up TT. I like the idea of six man teams. I'd like to see, Giro-style, some really interesting prologues.

The logistical nightmare of the Tour might make some rough mountain top finishes difficult, but there are many other things the race organizers can do to innovate.

This year could be a good year for breakaways. Big teams that can control the peloton e.g Discovery will be looking to defend the GC against potential rivals (Ullrich, Basso etc) rather than looking at chasing down breakaways as the competition for the GC is so hyped up.

I agree, the GC race is a long and boring tempo contest. Even the climbs are set at a high tempo to discorage attacks by the superior climbers.

That suggests powerful doping because---w/o oxygen boosting help, the heavier non-climbers would not be still sitting on the front end of the race halfway up the mountain---holding a high tempo--as we have seen from USPO in the past.

As a practical matter is would be quite simple to achieve----it would NEVER happen though, because a no-name may very well win the race (so too with the sprinters jersey and KOM prizes)

The Teams would protest and threaten to strike.

The solution is to eliminate the trauma and anemia medcial care the riders receive from 5:00 pm until 10:00 am the following day---and on the 24 hours of the rest day.

Assign watchdogs to all teammembers---and limit their movements. Bathroom pit stops must not be allowed to exceed 5 minutes---and the stalls not be able to accommodate two people.

There is no money in the budget for watch dogs; but if there were?

Watchdogs would be much more effective than so-called doping tests which can not detect the most powerful substances. (I mean, why bother except for the obvious public relations deception?) Housekeepers, airport security and municipal police catch more dopers than does the dope control van.

If riders were denied privacy:

1) The race will splinter into pieces and the fans won't recognize the new leaders each day.
2) The big names can't race w/o trauma care and will abandon before the public embarrassment does.
3) Lots of 'food poisoning excuses' will be offerred up
4) fewer than 50% of the field will finish, unless a truce is declared and a parade Tour replaces the aggressive style of racing---and racing is restricted to the final hour each day.

Such a race (devoid of medical doping) would actually be more humane---as the actual pain could be felt and the speeds lowered as a consequence. Riders less dependent on medication could assert themselves as the relative doping gains would be greatly reduced. (endurance gains thru doped training could still remain a factor)

Riders with big compensation and access to corrupt Italian blood doctors would not be able to exploit that unfair advantage over ordinary, lesser paid athletes.

Eldron said:

I've been following the TdF for about 20 years now and am getting a bit bored.... Gone are the days of aggressive racing, epic mountain stages and romantically chaotic racing.

So how do we get it back?

Drop the teams to 6 riders I say!

I'm sick of watching Fassa 'deliver' Ale Jet to the 300m mark, tired of watching Discovery 'deliver' Armstrong to the 2km from mountain top finish, tired of watching one team control a 200km+ stage.

If we dropped the teams to 6 riders they would not be able to strangle hold a race.

Much as I realise this is no doubt the best way to win at bike racing it's made it boring as hell. The only interesting racing these days are the classics....

Whatdya think?

Leave it to Flyer to screw up a good thread! Go suck on some needles!

I, for one, like the tour. What I like most about the tour is the Chess matches that go on in the group and all the stratigy used to get the team's top rider to the front to contend for the win.

I don't agree with all the technology used, though. I think the teams could go without the radios. It would keep groups closer together and make for better finishes. If a break away goes, the pack would be forced to keep them within view to plan for the next attack.

I also think that six riders per team wouldn't be a good idea unless there were more teams allowed to participate in the tour. What they need is some of the smaller teams that are willing to go all out to win.

i read that monsieur le blanc was a bit jealous at this years giro route with its frightening col du finestere and is already scoutin for new harder routes for next years tdf. saying that the tour could never climb the puy du dome ever again or any other smaller cols cos its entourage is too big. surely they could scale it down or do without the full scale publicity caravan for the final kilometers of a race no?

drewdoddy said:

...surely they could scale it down or do without the full scale publicity caravan for the final kilometers of a race no?

No?...No. TdF is first and foremost a business. Publicity and sponsor exposure are at the very heart of what it has become. The publicity machine drives the design of the route. TV wants to have the endless sprints in the early stages.
For me...
Definitely no radio communication.
Early mountain stages. Interspersed through the flat stages.
A couple of mountain summit finishes.
Stage victories only recorded for riders who finish the Tour.
Smaller teams with more of them.
More Pave / Dirt roads.
Ensure that the penultimate stages are potential race breakers.
1 year of running small National Teams again, just to remind us of why it didn't work.

Spoken as a true doping apologist. Your views are noted and your opinions limited to those who worship at the alter of commercial themes.

Insofaras equipment is concerned, if the illegal doping is allowed to continue unabated, they could have all riders use fix gears (51/15) or around a 92 inch rollout---and by Paris, the results would still be the same.

If doping is permitted, then radios should too.

The doping is the chief tactic. The rest is an advertising show.

Just wanted to add clarity and suggest an answer to the original question.

snyper0311 said:

Leave it to Flyer to screw up a good thread! Go suck on some needles!

I, for one, like the tour. What I like most about the tour is the Chess matches that go on in the group and all the stratigy used to get the team's top rider to the front to contend for the win.

I don't agree with all the technology used, though. I think the teams could go without the radios. It would keep groups closer together and make for better finishes. If a break away goes, the pack would be forced to keep them within view to plan for the next attack.

I also think that six riders per team wouldn't be a good idea unless there were more teams allowed to participate in the tour. What they need is some of the smaller teams that are willing to go all out to win.

[font=Arial]I completely disagree that recent TDF editions are boring. TDF attracts me mainly because of great personalities and stories. I think we had an amazing TDF 2003 and we also have the greatest athlete in sport nowadays. After a week we will start to witness another epic event. I don't understand what is boring in TDF - battle between Basso and Armstrong in mountains in 2004? Virenque stage victories? Uphill ITT? TTT? Armstrong stage victories? Amazing US Postal/Discovery?[/font]

[font=Arial]Yes, Vuelta 2004 and Giro 2005 were amazing events with dramatic last stages. But it is just normal that some year competition is tighter than another year. On the other hard - as Russian Eurosport commentator briefed me it was third time in the history of Giro that the winner was decided in last climb. Thigh Vuelta and Giro aren't an everyday phenomenon.[/font]

[font=Arial]Yes, Lance has the best team. But you have to deserve that 8 guys are working for you and not only 3 or 4. Nobody will work for weak leader. I think 9 guys is the right number for Grand Tours because someone might get ill, some might crash etc. – in some of the most recent tour we had some cases that only 3 or 4 riders had finished the race. If we had only 6 man in team it might happen that one rider = one team at the end of the race. I don’t think a lot of people are interested in it…[/font]

[font=Arial]I am glad that Pro Tour project is acting. It had to be established much earlier because we had a lot of discussions in pervious years that some riders weren’t invited to take part in tour. In 2005 such kinds of discussions are reduced to minimum. Savoldeli might not be present at this year’s Giro as Discovery were usually ignoring it… I am glad that almost none of crappy French teams are participating in this year’s tour…[/font]

[font=Times New Roman][font=Arial]Don’t think about Hinault and Mercx all the time – yes, they were great but LA is a man to admire today…[/font][/font]

I agreed......people need to wake up and understand that we're living in 2005 not 1960-80...........So that means that technology also improves and that radios also have improved. But the question is IF armstrong rode the giro with his tour squad all 100% it would be also boring. So the boring part is because of armstrong and his team for 1..........and ofcourse the radios and the riders not attacking (not that they could!).

And the course can be changed. There is no need to start the first 10 days ending all in a mass sprint. They can add some mountains in there and make it more exciting.

Next year it will be all different........one more boring one!

guncha said:

[font=Arial]I completely disagree that recent TDF editions are boring. TDF attracts me mainly because of great personalities and stories. I think we had an amazing TDF 2003 and we also have the greatest athlete in sport nowadays. After a week we will start to witness another epic event. I don't understand what is boring in TDF - battle between Basso and Armstrong in mountains in 2004? Virenque stage victories? Uphill ITT? TTT? Armstrong stage victories? Amazing US Postal/Discovery?[/font]

[font=Arial]Yes, Vuelta 2004 and Giro 2005 were amazing events with dramatic last stages. But it is just normal that some year competition is tighter than another year. On the other hard - as Russian Eurosport commentator briefed me it was third time in the history of Giro that the winner was decided in last climb. Thigh Vuelta and Giro aren't an everyday phenomenon.[/font]

[font=Arial]Yes, Lance has the best team. But you have to deserve that 8 guys are working for you and not only 3 or 4. Nobody will work for weak leader. I think 9 guys is the right number for Grand Tours because someone might get ill, some might crash etc. – in some of the most recent tour we had some cases that only 3 or 4 riders had finished the race. If we had only 6 man in team it might happen that one rider = one team at the end of the race. I don’t think a lot of people are interested in it…[/font]

[font=Arial]I am glad that Pro Tour project is acting. It had to be established much earlier because we had a lot of discussions in pervious years that some riders weren’t invited to take part in tour. In 2005 such kinds of discussions are reduced to minimum. Savoldeli might not be present at this year’s Giro as Discovery were usually ignoring it… I am glad that almost none of crappy French teams are participating in this year’s tour…[/font]

[font=Times New Roman][font=Arial]Don’t think about Hinault and Mercx all the time – yes, they were great but LA is a man to admire today…[/font][/font]

guncha said:

[font=Arial]I completely disagree that recent TDF editions are boring. TDF attracts me mainly because of great personalities and stories. I think we had an amazing TDF 2003 and we also have the greatest athlete in sport nowadays. After a week we will start to witness another epic event. I don't understand what is boring in TDF - battle between Basso and Armstrong in mountains in 2004? Virenque stage victories? Uphill ITT? TTT? Armstrong stage victories? Amazing US Postal/Discovery?[/font]

[font=Arial]Yes, Vuelta 2004 and Giro 2005 were amazing events with dramatic last stages. But it is just normal that some year competition is tighter than another year. On the other hard - as Russian Eurosport commentator briefed me it was third time in the history of Giro that the winner was decided in last climb. Thigh Vuelta and Giro aren't an everyday phenomenon.[/font]

[font=Arial]Yes, Lance has the best team. But you have to deserve that 8 guys are working for you and not only 3 or 4. Nobody will work for weak leader. I think 9 guys is the right number for Grand Tours because someone might get ill, some might crash etc. – in some of the most recent tour we had some cases that only 3 or 4 riders had finished the race. If we had only 6 man in team it might happen that one rider = one team at the end of the race. I don’t think a lot of people are interested in it…[/font]

[font=Arial]I am glad that Pro Tour project is acting. It had to be established much earlier because we had a lot of discussions in pervious years that some riders weren’t invited to take part in tour. In 2005 such kinds of discussions are reduced to minimum. Savoldeli might not be present at this year’s Giro as Discovery were usually ignoring it… I am glad that almost none of crappy French teams are participating in this year’s tour…[/font]

[font=Times New Roman][font=Arial]Don’t think about Hinault and Mercx all the time – yes, they were great but LA is a man to admire today…[/font][/font]

typical post from a Lance fan :p

MJtje said:

So that means that technology also improves and that radios also have improved.

Radio doesn’t win Grand tours but humans do that. It think LA rivals know what will happen if they'll attack... They were capable to attack LA in 2003 only...

MJtje said:

But the question is IF Armstrong rode the giro with his tour squad all 100% it would be also boring.

You must be happy that Lance has never done it...

Actually I don't understand statements related to Lance in Giro - I think he has never done because he thought he won't able to compete for yellow jersey after Giro... We will never know whether he was right...

MJtje said:

And the course can be changed. There is no need to start the first 10 days ending all in a mass sprint. They can add some mountains in there and make it more exciting.

Study the route more careful. We will have 5 sprinters stages before the first medium mountain stage as Stage 8 (July 9) to Gerardmer marks the first climb which classified above 3rd category (Col de la Schlucht, 2nd cat., 16,8km/4,4%) and it is situated 15 km before finish. The next sprinters encounter after Stage 7 is expected on July 15 (Stage 13).

One more important thing is that in the last week of the Tour (Stage to Mende) we will have 3rd category climb 9 km before finish and 2nd category climb 1,5km before finish. It means that mountain encounters will not finish with the last Pyrenees stage.

Normally TDF have some 7 or 8 stages with at least one 2nd or above category climb/s while this year we have 10 of them. I think it gives us some compensation that we have only one long ITT and no uphill ITT. One the other hand in first stage ITT LA can bring even a minute or two to his GC rivals and that's why LA challengers will have to be in better form since the start of the tour.

[font=Times New Roman][font=Verdana]

MJtje said:

Next year it will be all different........one more boring one!

1.Ban all radio communication.
2.Ban the prologue.
3.This might seem a bit obtuse but I have always favoured the awarding of the Yellow jersey, on the same current principle for the awarding the green jersey.
In other words, the winner of the TDF ought to be, cumulatively, the best placed rider for all stages and not solely the rider who covers the entire course in the shortest time.
This would require a GC contender to contest every single stage and not allow riders to sit back during the race.
4. I would like to see the ASO take a lead from the Veulta and Giro and introduce a different pattern to the stages and not stick to the same tried (and dangerous) formula of the first eight stages as eyeballs out flat stages with umpteen crashes.

I reckon they should keep the prologue real short and completely flat, that gives the sprinters a chance to wear yellow. They should have more "medium" mountain stages that favour breakaways which are always amusing. Also stages like the last one in the Tour de Suisse are good as all the non GC contenders get dropped leaving the GC contenders to fight it out without their teams to help.