cat 5 races + race report - most of them like this one???

Orange Fish said:

I did a cat 5 race this weekend in a park where there's a season-long race series, but just never raced in this particular area before. The overall experience was great and I was very pleased with my finish. However, I'm wondering if all cat 5 races are like this one, and if so, why.
My main pet peeve was seeing how only about 4-5 of us were willing to do ANY work to get the pace moving along, while the other 35 guys just sat there. I'm sure some of them were trying to just sit in the pack as much as possible because they either didn't feel comfortable pulling or they were trying to save as much energy - fine if you want to save energy, but if you're in the front of a rotating paceline, do some damn work! I put a surge on at the hill hoping that we could #1 get some excitement in this race and #2 maybe drop a few guys off the back to make the group smaller and more stretched out like the other categories were. But alas, nobody besides like 4-5 guys were willing to do any work, and most of the ones who already put their surges in were in the back of the pack trying to hold on.

Here's what happened. Right off the bat, it was a complete mess with everyone getting positions, etc., and some slow guys getting in the front for some reason. I got my spot in the front 10 guys and sat in. Then a guy came up along side and hollered to split the group into two lines, which I thought was a good idea, so I got out of the "slow" paceline and hopped on with this guy. (oh yeah, this under race was 20 miles, so it's not like we have to worry about going too hard too soon) We started moving along, and we started pulls, etc. When he pulled off, I pulled up front, did my pull, signaled for the next guy to come up, but what does he do??? HE SITS ON MY WHEEL AND FOLLOWS WHEREVER I GO!!!!! 😠 It remained this way for the rest of the race!!! So I decided to sit up and slow things down significantly. It was at that time, when the pace went from 26-27 to almost 19mph that someone FINALLY came up to do some damn work!
I can understand sitting in the pack in, say, a cat 1/2/3 race (especially if you're a cat 3 on a cat 1 racer's wheel) because the intensity is already sky high in a circuit race like this one, but sitting in when there are 40 guys moving at only 25mph??? C'mon...

Please tell me cat 5 races aren't generally like this where nobody wants to do anything and we have to keep the pace at a group ride-like 23-25mph until the coveted final lap where we can finally pick up the pace to get ready for the sprint. The problem with this course is that it's so narrow, and only a couple miles around, and has one small hill, so unless more than 2 guys are willing to do work, there will be no breakaway and no excitement until the last 400 meters.

I've never done a cat 5 or 4 race, and i've never raced in the US, so there could be some issues from that... however, i've been in 1/2 races where after a few of us have done a few really big turns, no one has been willing to come through and we've just ridden along at like 20 km/hr waiting for someone to make a move (while the person on the front tried to come off the front but everyone follows the lead rider).

if you do get caught on the front and they won't let you off (i.e., you slow down and weave from side to side) remember to change down to a moderate gear, because it's highly likely someone will wind the speed up and if you're stuck on the front you'll need to jump onto the train...

personally, if there was just 4 or 5 of you working you should have tried to get those riders to make a break with you and see if you could stay away till the end.

good luck with the next race
ric

ric_stern/RST said:

I've never done a cat 5 or 4 race, and i've never raced in the US, so there could be some issues from that... however, i've been in 1/2 races where after a few of us have done a few really big turns, no one has been willing to come through and we've just ridden along at like 20 km/hr waiting for someone to make a move (while the person on the front tried to come off the front but everyone follows the lead rider).

if you do get caught on the front and they won't let you off (i.e., you slow down and weave from side to side) remember to change down to a moderate gear, because it's highly likely someone will wind the speed up and if you're stuck on the front you'll need to jump onto the train...

personally, if there was just 4 or 5 of you working you should have tried to get those riders to make a break with you and see if you could stay away till the end.

good luck with the next race
ric

So that's what that one guy was doing! There was one portion where this guy in front was doing the ol' shake n' break and it just clicked now that you mentioned the swerving. Thinking back, nobody was doing anything, but I came back up front after he did that like 2 or 3 times (stupid me for doing that I guess). Seemed to work though because it got us moving when people saw that we were slowing down.

That was the thing though...the 4 or 5 guys who I could have done something with were off the back after they put in their efforts, so I was stuck alone with 3 guys on one team and 2 guys on another team all working together up front to keep their sprinters in a good position.

I guess a big part of it could be from not being on a team and riding as 'unattached' because that limits your ability to get people to work with you?

Thanks for the info!
🙂

Orange Fish said:

That was the thing though...the 4 or 5 guys who I could have done something with were off the back after they put in their efforts, so I was stuck alone with 3 guys on one team and 2 guys on another team all working together up front to keep their sprinters in a good position.

my feeling is that if they're off the back after doing a turn/pull then they probably shouldn't have done it in the first place. prior to myself having a power meter, one of the ways i knew i was fit (apart from e.g., sensations while training) was if i attacked and if i got caught could go with the counter attack or lead the charge at the front of the bunch to chase people down.

as i said i've never done 4/5 racing but my feeling is that this is obviously how you start out at racing (and progress through the categories). i think you need to make some mistakes so that you can learn what works and what doesn't.

If you're fit, then you could just stay up front and hammer steady at the front as a good workout -- if you're fit enough you may well shell people off the back. often in low priority races i find great motivation when i am on the front hurting and i glance over my shoulder and see it all lined out behind me and everyone else is hurting too. makes me ride harder!

Quoted post said:

I guess a big part of it could be from not being on a team and riding as 'unattached' because that limits your ability to get people to work with you?

Thanks for the info!
🙂

no probs with the info... out of curiousity do they not give you this info at your place of work... i'd have thought they would?

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

my feeling is that if they're off the back after doing a turn/pull then they probably shouldn't have done it in the first place. prior to myself having a power meter, one of the ways i knew i was fit (apart from e.g., sensations while training) was if i attacked and if i got caught could go with the counter attack or lead the charge at the front of the bunch to chase people down.

as i said i've never done 4/5 racing but my feeling is that this is obviously how you start out at racing (and progress through the categories). i think you need to make some mistakes so that you can learn what works and what doesn't.

If you're fit, then you could just stay up front and hammer steady at the front as a good workout -- if you're fit enough you may well shell people off the back. often in low priority races i find great motivation when i am on the front hurting and i glance over my shoulder and see it all lined out behind me and everyone else is hurting too. makes me ride harder!

Yeah, I kind of noticed that and realized it later on that those guys probably shouldn't have put those efforts in, but I'd like to think that if we had a couple guys right when it happened, we could have done something, but maybe not...I don't have the experience racing in any harder categories, so I can't say for sure. Just what I learn from other people. But yeah, you're right about the progression...seems like this is just one of those things where you have to pay your dues and make mistakes and see other mistakes being made to really progress as a complete cyclist.
I like the part about riding hard and looking back, but I'm always afraid to look back and see people NOT hurting :p (gotta get some confidence)

Quoted post said:

no probs with the info... out of curiousity do they not give you this info at your place of work... i'd have thought they would?

ric

Do you mean the place I coach for now? Yeah, they do give all sorts of info, but we would mainly focus on in depth strategy and info for what we were coaching, and at the time, I never thought I'd end up coaching more cyclists than triathletes, let alone leave the triathlon race scene for strictly cycling. :eek: But I started as a triathlon/multisport coach and recently got sick of being in the "guppy" lane at swim workouts and decided to pursue cycling full time now, so as an outside coach working from about 48 hours away from the main office, I don't have the access to the top coaches in the company to go to or ride with for information unfortunately. Kinda stinks. They still help out, but there are all sorts of good places to go for this info - this site being one of them, especially with responses from the posters that Felt Rider mentioned in his reply to that one "pro or con" message (one of the last recent replies in that one).

Orange Fish said:

Yeah, I kind of noticed that and realized it later on that those guys probably shouldn't have put those efforts in, but I'd like to think that if we had a couple guys right when it happened, we could have done something, but maybe not...I don't have the experience racing in any harder categories, so I can't say for sure. Just what I learn from other people. But yeah, you're right about the progression...seems like this is just one of those things where you have to pay your dues and make mistakes and see other mistakes being made to really progress as a complete cyclist.
I like the part about riding hard and looking back, but I'm always afraid to look back and see people NOT hurting :p (gotta get some confidence)

i believe that your confidence will grow with your fitness. as well as other ways.

one of the lessons i learnt fairly early on racing was that if i was halfway down a line and gritting my teeth suffering (and i've lost fillings doing this!) then the guy (and/or in some cases girl) on the front has got to be hurting as much as me or more. Often, when you're hanging on for 'grim death' you only need to hang fire for a few more seconds as the person on the front is hurting and you'll all have to ease up. hopefully!

Quoted post said:

Do you mean the place I coach for now? Yeah, they do give all sorts of info, but we would mainly focus on in depth strategy and info for what we were coaching, and at the time, I never thought I'd end up coaching more cyclists than triathletes, let alone leave the triathlon race scene for strictly cycling. :eek: But I started as a triathlon/multisport coach and recently got sick of being in the "guppy" lane at swim workouts and decided to pursue cycling full time now, so as an outside coach working from about 48 hours away from the main office, I don't have the access to the top coaches in the company to go to or ride with for information unfortunately. Kinda stinks. They still help out, but there are all sorts of good places to go for this info - this site being one of them, especially with responses from the posters that Felt Rider mentioned in his reply to that one "pro or con" message (one of the last recent replies in that one).

yes, there's lots of good advice on this site from a whole variety of people. i wasn't 'having a go' at your place, i was just wondering.

a lot of the race skills you will learn in racing itself. from my experience you may also notice subtle and gross changes in the way that races unfold as you go up the categories. and you should also learn when it's the 'right' time to eat and drink. eating or drinking at the wrong time can leave you choking/spitting/coughing it all back!

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

i believe that your confidence will grow with your fitness. as well as other ways.

one of the lessons i learnt fairly early on racing was that if i was halfway down a line and gritting my teeth suffering (and i've lost fillings doing this!) then the guy (and/or in some cases girl) on the front has got to be hurting as much as me or more. Often, when you're hanging on for 'grim death' you only need to hang fire for a few more seconds as the person on the front is hurting and you'll all have to ease up. hopefully!

So I've heard. lol. A few people said that if you're on the edge of exploding, then the person in front or the few people right behind you must be close or already there as well. That's good to know though!

Quoted post said:

yes, there's lots of good advice on this site from a whole variety of people. i wasn't 'having a go' at your place, i was just wondering.

a lot of the race skills you will learn in racing itself. from my experience you may also notice subtle and gross changes in the way that races unfold as you go up the categories. and you should also learn when it's the 'right' time to eat and drink. eating or drinking at the wrong time can leave you choking/spitting/coughing it all back!

ric

Oh I know you weren't having a go at it. Lots of good info in many locations in real life and on the web.

I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask about stuff you'll learn in racing anyway...some people may say something in a certain way that makes things that go on during races make sense (as in this discussion so far) and can clear up any issues to help prevent mistakes in the future. Without some of the stuff I learned already, I probably would have been one of those guys who were yelling at each other in the middle of the pack for "cutting someone off." LOL. They scared the rest of us because they stopped paying attention to the race for minutes! [img]cyclingforums.comeek.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Orange Fish said:

So I've heard. lol. A few people said that if you're on the edge of exploding, then the person in front or the few people right behind you must be close or already there as well. That's good to know though!

i've had to repeat this to myself on many occasions!

the worse thing is if you're suffering and there's two guys behind chatting away talking about whatever, as if they were in the pub! that's depressing. But something i always do when fit 😎

the other thing worth bearing in mind -- especially when you start road racing (the event you did sounded like a crit, but i could be wrong) -- is to know when you can let the group go, so that you can chase back on at *your* chosen intensity, rather than hammering yourself to stay with a group and then getting spat out and blowing up.

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

i've had to repeat this to myself on many occasions!

the worse thing is if you're suffering and there's two guys behind chatting away talking about whatever, as if they were in the pub! that's depressing. But something i always do when fit 😎

the other thing worth bearing in mind -- especially when you start road racing (the event you did sounded like a crit, but i could be wrong) -- is to know when you can let the group go, so that you can chase back on at *your* chosen intensity, rather than hammering yourself to stay with a group and then getting spat out and blowing up.

ric

Yeah and it's fun when you can chat away and hear the guy next to you huffing away ready to bust a lung. lol.

This race was a circuit race with a 3.4 mile loop that we did 5 times. But that was one of the biggest things I had to (and still have to) figure out - which guys are the strong ones and which attacks do I respond to. There had to be at least 8-9 attacks before the last lap and I had no idea who to go with or who to let go because I never raced with these guys before - many of them are regulars from week to week during this series. We reeled everyone back in, but it definitely wasted a lot of energy! So that'll be fun to figure out as the season goes on 🙂

Orange Fish said:

Yeah and it's fun when you can chat away and hear the guy next to you huffing away ready to bust a lung. lol.

This race was a circuit race with a 3.4 mile loop that we did 5 times. But that was one of the biggest things I had to (and still have to) figure out - which guys are the strong ones and which attacks do I respond to.

i don't know how 4th and 5th cat races pan out (except that they often come down to a sprint), but sometimes you have to play poker with the other riders. if you respond to every attack, then you'll be forced to respond to every attack - everyone will look to you. what you need to sometimes do is *not* go after every attack -- let others take the chase up. Sometimes, everyone will look to everyone else to chase, and if you can put a big effort in you may be able to cross to a break by yourself.

Quoted post said:

There had to be at least 8-9 attacks before the last lap and I had no idea who to go with or who to let go because I never raced with these guys before - many of them are regulars from week to week during this series. We reeled everyone back in, but it definitely wasted a lot of energy! So that'll be fun to figure out as the season goes on 🙂

try and look for the ones that look fit. ask around. who looks good under pressure? look for visual clues.

ric

I don't think the behavior you experienced is limited to Cat5 races and it's not limited to racing in 2005. Granted, as you move up you have more experienced riders and the pace is faster. But, you're always going to have more than half the riders at the start line with one objective: hang on and do as little work as possible until the sprint finish. When there are one or more off the front, the paceline has a mission -- to chase down the guys off the front. Under that scenario, you've got a chance to get an organized paceline going. If nobody's off the front, the paceline has no mission and you have little chance of getting it organized and moving. All you can do then to break up the pack is to throw in repeated surges. Hopefully, you won't be the only one to throw in a surge (especially if you go to the race with a buddy or two of similar fitness). If you have done intervals with short rest periods, you'll be able to throw in repeat surges and still have time to recover for the sprint finish. The surges will eventually take effect, especially if they're long enough (e.g., 5+ minutes). Also, when you're in front working hard, never drop your head -- whenever I see that, I know the guy's near his limit.

RapDaddyo said:

Also, when you're in front working hard, never drop your head -- whenever I see that, I know the guy's near his limit.

sometimes i do this as a 'trick'. it can fool people into thinking you're wasted or just hanging on and they can end up 'forgetting' about you...

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

sometimes i do this as a 'trick'. it can fool people into thinking you're wasted or just hanging on and they can end up 'forgetting' about you...

ric

Yeah, but I'd have figured you out long before that, by your cadence, when and where you get off the saddle, your ability to accelerate when a guy moves by on the outside and how straight your line is, especially climbing. You'd have to do more than just throw in a head-drop fake.

RapDaddyo said:

Yeah, but I'd have figured you out long before that, by your cadence, when and where you get off the saddle, your ability to accelerate when a guy moves by on the outside and how straight your line is, especially climbing. You'd have to do more than just throw in a head-drop fake.

you know my moves! no fooling you!

ric_stern/RST said:

you know my moves! no fooling you!

Good, fit riders ride like good, fit riders. That's why IMO nothing takes the place of doing one's daily training rides with the fastest riders in the area. I feel sorry for anyone trying to break into racing who rides mostly alone. I was lucky. I trained every day with a 3-time Olympic road team member and a few other strong riders.

sounds suspiciously like Prospect Park 🙂

Also you sound like you're very fit since you can make efforts like that all the time. You'll move quickly to Cat 4's if you keep up the work (do 10 races, move up). Then your fitness will help you out.

in *any* bike racing, if there is someone willing to pull the field along for no reason then the smart racers will let that person pull. and pull. and pull. bike racing is about tactics and making your moves count, not about sharing work.

When you're working at the front, think about how it is going to contribute to your race goals (whether to win, place, get in a break, get a prime, chase, even just stay in the race till the end). If your work is not contributing to your race end goal then sit up.

Usually if you're at the front pulling for no apparent reason (no break so no one to chase or block for, going slower than, say, 28-30 mph which means you're not really hurting anyone behind you, not attacking, etc) then you're doing yourself no good and you're letting everyone else just sit in.

Instead, gauge your efforts so that your efforts benefit *you*, not the others. If you want to pull, make sure you're in a smaller group (like a break) before you give your strength away to everyone else in the group.

If you're fresh enough to pull but not fast enough to attack, then either your "jump speed" is too low (ought to be 30-38 mph - if it isn't, work on it) or you're attacking in a less than ideal way (launch too far from back, launch from front, telegraph your intents by your body action, launching when everyone is fresh and can react, etc).

Often a rider might pull through when others are tired (say at the top of the hill) and inadvertently get a gap. This is the kind of opportunity you need to capitalize on if you want to work and stay away. You can bridge to that rider or, if you time it right, you might be that rider. Then go for it. Remember that the field could piece together a short chase burst of 30+ mph so you'll need to build a gap then work on maintaining it.

Try launching attacks right after another attack is caught (but don't wait till the field is going 19 mph). Or launch 2 or 3 "weak" attacks where you go 80% but they string out the field nonetheless. then figure out who's strong, ask if they want to go with you next time, and this time bury yourself in the initial effort. Try an attack where everyone is tired (top of hill is classic) - get a run going from 10 guys back so that the guys in front can't react right away. Attack where there is a crosswind (if any) and stay in the gutter - if the wind is from the left, stay on the right curb. If you can't read the wind, learn to do so. If there are sharp corners attack going into them (or out of them).

In general (there are exceptions to all these rules), don't attack on downhills, headwinds (unless it is powerful and you can push through it), tailwinds (unless you have crazy speed), bottom of longer climbs that involve sitting and spinning (usually better to attack at the top)...

If you feel like you're really good on that 3.4 mile course, then wait till the last lap to make any move. but when you make it, commit to it 100%. Sit, spin, and rest for the whole race, let others tire themselves out. Then launch the big attack on the last lap (might be at the top of the hill if at prospect) and bury yourself. Don't let up, be consistent in your effort, and you might ride away with a win.

Or, if you fancy yourself a sprinter, then wait for the sprint. No one says a bike race has to be hard. If you win it, you win it.

good luck with your racing

Orange Fish said:

But that was one of the biggest things I had to (and still have to) figure out - which guys are the strong ones and which attacks do I respond to.

There's the big part of the reason few people are willing to work, IMO. Especially in CAT 5, where nobody really knows each other well (except maybe teammates) and there will be riders of vastly different fitness levels, riders are more inclined to sit and watch each other. By the time you've raced a bit, you'll know enough people that you can try to coordinate a break or stage enough strong surges to shake the weaker riders.

ric_stern/RST said:

i don't know how 4th and 5th cat races pan out (except that they often come down to a sprint), but sometimes you have to play poker with the other riders. if you respond to every attack, then you'll be forced to respond to every attack - everyone will look to you. what you need to sometimes do is *not* go after every attack -- let others take the chase up. Sometimes, everyone will look to everyone else to chase, and if you can put a big effort in you may be able to cross to a break by yourself.

That was one of the huge problems - I was "that guy" who ended up bridging many of the attacks. Or at least it felt like I bridged waaaaaaaaay too many to do any good for myself. After reading your post and the last two, I can definitely see where I made so many mistakes. I'm especially pleased with my finish after seeing all these mistakes and can already tell that I'll have a lot more energy to save in the next race! 😄

Hey guys, thanks for all the help! Every bit of info was great and I'm definitely going to read it a few more times before the next race to go in there with a new found sense of hope and strategy for placing even better in July's races!

Carpediemracing, do you race in a lot of the PP races? Sounds like you've been doing it for a while from your reply.

That's pretty much how cat5 races unfolded due to lack of experience and team tactics with the riders and fitness. Couple of guys will chase down anything. Once the attack is neuturalized, they sit in. They never thought about what they need or have to do in a race. That's why you must have a clear idea what do you want to do in a race. If you need to launch and setup your teamate on a break, you ride in the front and pull at high speed. Get couple of teamates taking turn to pull. This will drop off the dead weights (pack fillers and guys won't matter) of the field. Keep up the tempo so high near the foot of a climb that your designated teamate can launch an attack while the whole pack struggling on the climb. If you think you have good TT ability, sit in for the half of the race until the last couple of laps. Attack at a harder section of the course (hill, winds, or narrow road) and take a flyer. Stronger riders will try to bridge you and you and they can work together. Team tactics would make a lot sense once you join a racing team or club. Riding unattached you will find yourself always in the defensive.