I need a sign

Rich Clark said:

"gds" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rdclark said:

I
refuse to be drafted.

Just wondering why.

1) It's inherently less safe than riding solo.

2) I am as uncompetitive as they come. I'm not even interested in knowing
whether I'm a "weaker" or "stronger" rider.

3) I ride alone. I don't want conversation when I'm riding.

4) It's inherently less safe than riding solo.

Quoted message said:

I understand the idea of wanting to know someones is there from a
safety perspective. But other than that- at least for me- I couldn't
care less. I don't mid pulling a weaker rider along and I love being
pulled by stronger rider. I think both situations are fine. The former
makes stronger psychologicaly and the latter makes me feel faster :-)

The interactions between two randomly-met riders will almost certainly
consist entirely of things that don't interest me.

RichC

You seem to have two major issues. Safety and lack of interest in
social interaction. I think the second is the key and if you want to
ride alone that should always be your privilege. But as to safety, I
think your double stress on that issue is of the mark. I don't see road
cycling as being at all unsafe. I have no data on the relative risks of
solo riding vs. riding with one other person so I won't argue which is
safer but I beleive both situation are essentially safe. Certainly safe
enough so that I have no worries at all.
Of course if you find yourself near someone who is clearly riding in an
unsafe manner that is another issue and it makes perfect sense to
distance yourself.

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

gds said:

OK I understand that in theory. But from a practical point of view I
think ithas to be rare. I've been riding for over 50 years and much of
that has been in close proximity to other riders. Crashes have been few
and far between and I have never heard of a rider being sued by someone
who strikes them from behind. I'm sure someone will come up with an
example but it stil has to be very rare.

To tell ya the truth, I haven't heard of such a case either.
OTOH, stuff happens.

Quoted message said:

I guess I don't spend a lot of time worryong about these things which I
don't view as very high risk. And besides I like riding with others and
like drafting and being drafted. I have had some very pleasant rides
with shared pulling over many miles with complete strangers.And I've
even become friends with some of them.

Sounds like fun, especially when everybody gets to do their share
of work. But I suspect Dane's wheel sucker was just mooching.

Quoted message said:

Other comments about bad attitude would turn me off much more than
simply having someone to pull along. I do agree that there are polite
ways to go about it and certainly if you indicate your lack of interest
it should be respected.

Maybe another fly in the ointment is neither party having any
inkling as to the other's intended route. I guess cruising
along on the open road is one thing; having to make more
abrupt manoeuvers on a commuting route might be quite another.
And I'm not so sure I'd want strangers following me home.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

agreed!

gds said:

You seem to have two major issues. Safety and lack of interest in
social interaction. I think the second is the key and if you want to
ride alone that should always be your privilege. But as to safety, I
think your double stress on that issue is of the mark. I don't see road
cycling as being at all unsafe. I have no data on the relative risks of
solo riding vs. riding with one other person so I won't argue which is
safer but I beleive both situation are essentially safe. Certainly safe
enough so that I have no worries at all.

If someone is drafting me, I cannot slow down, turn, avoid an obstacle,
or even appreciably change my cadence without risking a crash. That is
inherently unsafe, and no, I'm not exaggerating. It is boorishly rude
to put another rider at such risk without his permission.

Or maybe you have a different definition of "drafting?" Have you eever
ridden in a paceline?

RichC

Dane Jackson said:

Tom Keats said:

Dane Jackson <[email hidden]> writes:

With all his lame excuses, it sounds like he knew he
was being rude by drafting you without your permission,
and you had him on the defensive. I dunno why he couldn't
just say "Sorry, I didn't realize it was bothering you,"
and desist from then on.

Yeah, I've told other people the same things and some of them got
offended also, but none were this defensive. Some of them took it
really well "Oh, sorry, didn't know that", I just say "That's ok"
and we go our separate ways.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

God he managed to [censored] me off.

I don't think he'll bother you anymore, for fear of
being (as he probably perceives it) bawled out.

I saw him again this morning. I caught up to him because he was
lollygagging. I said "Good morning" when we got to a road crossing.
He just gave me a dirty look and took off. Shrug.

Quoted message said:

It's good that you got a chance to speak directly
to him about your objections to his drafting you.
I guess you don't need to clutter your bike with
a sign, after all.

Nah, I definitely think it's time. I'll probably put it on the bike
from May to October. I never have any problem with it any other
of the year.

Two things, one if somone is going to draft someone else, then first
they should ask, it doesn't take much to ask someone "mind if I draft".
If they say okay, then go ahead and draft. Of course, one should be
willing to then take over as the lead rider as well. Some may also say,
"draft?", in which case you should really not, unless you take the time
to explain it first.

W

rdclark said:

gds said:

You seem to have two major issues. Safety and lack of interest in
social interaction. I think the second is the key and if you want to
ride alone that should always be your privilege. But as to safety, I
think your double stress on that issue is of the mark. I don't see road
cycling as being at all unsafe. I have no data on the relative risks of
solo riding vs. riding with one other person so I won't argue which is
safer but I beleive both situation are essentially safe. Certainly safe
enough so that I have no worries at all.

If someone is drafting me, I cannot slow down, turn, avoid an obstacle,
or even appreciably change my cadence without risking a crash. That is
inherently unsafe, and no, I'm not exaggerating. It is boorishly rude
to put another rider at such risk without his permission.

Or maybe you have a different definition of "drafting?" Have you eever
ridden in a paceline?

And you can't just yell out, "Do not draft, please", if they continue,
then it's the same as dealing with a tailgater when driving, and that is
to slow down, when it's safe, for them to, wave them past, then continue
on.

Sticking a sign on your bike, will probably just result in some cager
running you over trying to read it.

W

The Wogster said:

Two things, one if somone is going to draft someone else, then first
they should ask, it doesn't take much to ask someone "mind if I draft".
If they say okay, then go ahead and draft. Of course, one should be
willing to then take over as the lead rider as well. Some may also say,
"draft?", in which case you should really not, unless you take the time
to explain it first.

Yeah, most of the guys who latch on just seem to be leeches.
Occasionally one of them will pull out in front and try and let me
draft. I usually just drop back and let them go. When I'm out on
my bike, I'm really only interested in cycling solo. I've had nice
conversations with some people cycling side by side. But that's
not really why I'm out there.

Unless you are an exceedingly attractive MOTAS I don't really want
to be staring at your hind end while drafting you. Nor do I want
you admiring my fundament. [1]

[1] Though my wife assures me it's stunning. ;-) [2]
[2] She's obviously deluded however. [3]
[3] Love, it's like sort of horrible brainsickness that knocks holes
in your judgement. It's like your brains dribble straight out your
ears.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
Unless hours were cups of sack, and minutes capons, and clocks the tongues
of bawds, and dials the signs of leaping houses, and the blessed sun himself
a fair, hot wench in flame-colored taffeta, I see no reason why thou shouldst
be so superfluous to demand the time of the day. I wasted time and now doth
time waste me.
-- William Shakespeare

Tom Keats said:

gds said:

OK I understand that in theory. But from a practical point of view I
think ithas to be rare. I've been riding for over 50 years and much of
that has been in close proximity to other riders. Crashes have been few
and far between and I have never heard of a rider being sued by someone
who strikes them from behind. I'm sure someone will come up with an
example but it stil has to be very rare.

To tell ya the truth, I haven't heard of such a case either.
OTOH, stuff happens.

I also doubt this would happen. But I do resent having to take
responsibility for *his* actions when I'm just trying to get home
from work. It's the one time of day that I am alone, solitary, all
by myself. It's the time noone is asking for my attention or making
demands of me. I'm just enjoying the stretch and play of muscles, the
roar of the wind and the feel of the road.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess I don't spend a lot of time worryong about these things which I
don't view as very high risk. And besides I like riding with others and
like drafting and being drafted. I have had some very pleasant rides
with shared pulling over many miles with complete strangers.And I've
even become friends with some of them.

Sounds like fun, especially when everybody gets to do their share
of work. But I suspect Dane's wheel sucker was just mooching.

Each time he drafts me across the bridge, he takes off as soon as the
bridge tilts up into a climb. Totally mooching and then taking off.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Other comments about bad attitude would turn me off much more than
simply having someone to pull along. I do agree that there are polite
ways to go about it and certainly if you indicate your lack of interest
it should be respected.

Maybe another fly in the ointment is neither party having any
inkling as to the other's intended route. I guess cruising
along on the open road is one thing; having to make more
abrupt manoeuvers on a commuting route might be quite another.
And I'm not so sure I'd want strangers following me home.

Yeah, it is kind of creepy. Imagine if you were walking home on an
empty street. Would it be socially acceptable for someone to trail
you by three feet? Would it be acceptable jogging?

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"Gravity always wins."

gds said:

You seem to have two major issues. Safety and lack of interest in
social interaction. I think the second is the key and if you want to
ride alone that should always be your privilege. But as to safety, I
think your double stress on that issue is of the mark. I don't see road
cycling as being at all unsafe. I have no data on the relative risks of
solo riding vs. riding with one other person so I won't argue which is
safer but I beleive both situation are essentially safe. Certainly safe
enough so that I have no worries at all.

On my first ride in a paceline I witnessed a crash. We were on one of
our first training rides preparing for a charity ride. The group leader
was an experienced road cyclist who was watching out for the "newbies"
that day. After going over basic communication and the rules, he
decided to drag us along for the first few miles. There were five of us
in all.

I was the last in line. The fellow second in line wasn't watching and
rubbed tires with the leader. The way he went down also took out the
leader. The third in line went into the ditch trying to avoid the
crash. The fourth bailed left. I was lucky to have good brakes and a
strong willingness to use them.

All told, three bikes received new scratches, two knees and a forearm
got road rash, and one set of cycling shorts got serious grass stains.

I learned the rule about pacelines that the leader failed to cover - be
picky about who you ride with.

-Buck

The Wogster said:

And you can't just yell out, "Do not draft, please", if they continue,
then it's the same as dealing with a tailgater when driving, and that is
to slow down, when it's safe, for them to, wave them past, then continue
on.

Yes, I could do that. But why should I have to? Moreover why should I
have to do it dozens of times every 'season'.

Quoted message said:

Sticking a sign on your bike, will probably just result in some cager
running you over trying to read it.

LOL!

I think I'll take that risk.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
A diplomat's life consists of three things: protocol, Geritol, and alcohol.
-- Adlai Stevenson

rdclark said:

Quoted message said:

Or maybe you have a different definition of "drafting?" Have you eever
ridden in a paceline?

RichC

Yes I ride in pacelines several times a week for about the last 40
years.

You are entitled to your opinion and I certainly believe that if you
want to ride alone you should be able to do so. But I still feel that
having a rider drafting you (assuming it is a reasonably competent
rider) is not very unsafe. If you are riding in situations that
require constant turning, slowing, sweriving, whatever, then the
situation is almost by defintion not suited to drafting. By that I mean
that you are probably not traveling at a speed at which drafting is
particularly usefull.

And your own comfort level riding with others and thus feelings about
situational safety may vary from mine. Not better or worse but
different. But I'll stick with my view that cycling, with or without
someone drafting you is so safe that it isn't worth much worry on that
account. But to repeat, if you don't like it then no one should impose
it on you.

Dane Jackson said:

The Wogster said:

And you can't just yell out, "Do not draft, please", if they continue,
then it's the same as dealing with a tailgater when driving, and that is
to slow down, when it's safe, for them to, wave them past, then continue
on.

Here is a scenario:

I come up behind you, pull up beside, "May I draft"
You, "Please do not"
Me, "Have a nice ride", I then pull ahead, or drop back.
Of course, you don't turn around and draft me, either.

Alternate scenario:

I come up behind you, pull up beside, "May I draft"
You: "sure"
I drop back in the draft zone, after a while you signal and you drop
back into MY draft zone.
At some point, we go our separate ways...

Quoted message said:

Yes, I could do that. But why should I have to? Moreover why should I
have to do it dozens of times every 'season'.

It's just one of those things, that happens, see the thing is, by asking
if I may draft, you then know, if you follow the alternate scenario,
that first I am there, and second, that after a period of time, we can
swap.

W

Buck said:

On my first ride in a paceline I witnessed a crash. We were on one of
our first training rides preparing for a charity ride. The group leader
was an experienced road cyclist who was watching out for the "newbies"
that day. After going over basic communication and the rules, he
decided to drag us along for the first few miles. There were five of us
in all.

I was the last in line. The fellow second in line wasn't watching and
rubbed tires with the leader. The way he went down also took out the
leader. The third in line went into the ditch trying to avoid the
crash. The fourth bailed left. I was lucky to have good brakes and a
strong willingness to use them.

All told, three bikes received new scratches, two knees and a forearm
got road rash, and one set of cycling shorts got serious grass stains.

I learned the rule about pacelines that the leader failed to cover - be
picky about who you ride with.

-Buck

Stuff happens -including crashes and I don't deny that. But I will
still maintain that riding a bicycle in agroup and/or drafting
situation is not particularly hazardous. I participate in group rides 2
or 3 times a week and my last crash was about 13 years ago. All told in
over 50 years of cycling I've crashed perhaps 4 or 5 times. None
serious.

Remember we are talking about cyclist/cyclist situations we are not
talking about cyclist/motor vehicle interaction.

The Wogster said:

Here is a scenario:

I come up behind you, pull up beside, "May I draft"
You, "Please do not"
Me, "Have a nice ride", I then pull ahead, or drop back.
Of course, you don't turn around and draft me, either.

Alternate scenario:

I come up behind you, pull up beside, "May I draft"
You: "sure"
I drop back in the draft zone, after a while you signal and you drop
back into MY draft zone.
At some point, we go our separate ways...

As I think I mentioned, I don't have a problem with people who ask.
I often say yes in that case. I have a real problem with passing some
guy and looking behind me a minute or two later and realizing he's glued
to my butt. That's what I'm complaining about. That's what's happening
all the time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, I could do that. But why should I have to? Moreover why should I
have to do it dozens of times every 'season'.

It's just one of those things, that happens, see the thing is, by asking
if I may draft, you then know, if you follow the alternate scenario,
that first I am there, and second, that after a period of time, we can
swap.

That's another thing, most of these guys are leeches who don't want to
pull. Either way you slice it, it's bad ettiquette. By paceline standards
or by commuter standards.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
Come fill the cup and in the fire of spring
Your winter garment of repentence fling.
The bird of time has but a little way
To flutter -- and the bird is on the wing.
-- Omar Khayyam

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:56:41 -0700, Dane Jackson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

As I think I mentioned, I don't have a problem with people who ask.
I often say yes in that case. I have a real problem with passing some
guy and looking behind me a minute or two later and realizing he's glued
to my butt. That's what I'm complaining about. That's what's happening
all the time.

Quoted message said:

That's another thing, most of these guys are leeches who don't want to
pull. Either way you slice it, it's bad ettiquette. By paceline standards
or by commuter standards.

Hi Dane, how close do you consider a problem? I will sometimes try to
keep up with someone who passes me, maybe 3 or 4 bike lengths behind.
Often, I just get dropped anyway, but sometimes I am just dwadling
along, not realizing that I had slowed down. Then I might stay with
them for a while. If we stop, I pull alongside and say hello.

But, no I never would lock on to anyones rear wheel, that I didn't
know.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Starr said:

Hi Dane, how close do you consider a problem? I will sometimes try to
keep up with someone who passes me, maybe 3 or 4 bike lengths behind.
Often, I just get dropped anyway, but sometimes I am just dwadling
along, not realizing that I had slowed down. Then I might stay with
them for a while. If we stop, I pull alongside and say hello.

I'm not talking that far. I've literally hit some of them with spittle
before I realized they were back there. Maybe 2 feet. Sometimes less.

I can't imagine objecting to someone who was a couple bike lengths back.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
Many a man that can't direct you to a corner drugstore will get a respectful
hearing when age has further impaired his mind.
-- Finley Peter Dunne

The Wogster wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Alternate scenario:

I come up behind you, pull up beside, "May I draft"
You: "sure"
I drop back in the draft zone, after a while you signal and you drop
back into MY draft zone.
At some point, we go our separate ways...

Illustrated in real life:

It's that time of the year when I'm pouring on the extra miles, so I went
around the top of the lake for my ride home, via the Burke-Gilman (no sign
of Mr. Brown) and the Sammamish River Trail. I was taking it pretty
leisurely on the BG, but for some reason I really felt like pounding it on
the SRT. There were three of us more or less riding at the same pace: me,
Man-in-Black, and Raleigh-On-His-Butt. I really was nervous about
Raleigh-On-His-Butt because he was riding with headphones, and I don't trust
headphone riders. Man-in-Black, a compact Asian guy with good legs on a
black Cannondale with a purple fade, though, seemed like a reasonable
fellow. He passed me, I passed him, then he passed me, and then the scenario
seemed to follow pretty similar to yours above:

Me: I seem to be right behind you, but I don't mean to be drafting you. I
don't have it in me, though, to pass you again. Is it all right if I hang
back here awhile, or do you want me to drop back a bit?

Man-in-Black: Oh, you can stay back there, it's OK.

Later, I pass him, and as I pass, I tell Man-in-Black he can draft me if
he'd like. He's back there for a while. Raleigh-On-His-Butt, who was just
ahead of us, turns off. After the next trail crossing, I look back, and
either Man-in-Black turned off or I dropped him. I prefer a "bye now", or
"thanks for the pull" or something if someone's no longer going to be back
there, but if I really did drop him, maybe it was a gradual thing, and he
didn't have time for good-byes.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referr­al/Cpetersky

Dane Jackson said:

Upon realizing the same [censored] has just drafted me across the I-90
bridge for the third time in recent memory, I decided to mention to
him that it was rude to draft without asking. As we reached the end
of the bridge he pulled up next to me and asked how I was doing.

...

How about a sign that says "Chews Tobacco, Draft at Your Own Risk!"

Mike

Mike McGuire said:

Dane Jackson said:

Upon realizing the same [censored] has just drafted me across the I-90
bridge for the third time in recent memory, I decided to mention to
him that it was rude to draft without asking. As we reached the end
of the bridge he pulled up next to me and asked how I was doing.

How about a sign that says "Chews Tobacco, Draft at Your Own Risk!"

I was thinking more along the lines of:

"Periodic Volcanic Flatulence. Draft at Your Own Risk!"

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
Interfere? Of course we should interfere! Always do what you're
best at, that's what I say.
-- Doctor Who

gds said:

You are entitled to your opinion and I certainly believe that if you
want to ride alone you should be able to do so. But I still feel that
having a rider drafting you (assuming it is a reasonably competent
rider)

That is a *very* risky assumption, and I'm not interested in
participating in the process of proving or disproving it.

Quoted message said:

is not very unsafe. If you are riding in situations that
require constant turning, slowing, sweriving, whatever, then the
situation is almost by defintion not suited to drafting.

Yet guys are always trying to draft me. Maybe that's why I assume
they're incompetent.

I'm wondering about something, though. Are we talking about people who
are, let's say, "in uniform" here? Riding road bikes, wearing cycling
apparel, no cargo? Because that may create a different set of
assumptions between riders.

I always look like a commuter or a tourist, even when I'm out doing a
solo century. Plain jersey, touring bike, rack and rack trunk, etc. I'm
rarely going faster than 18 or 19mph on the flats. Maybe people are
drafting me so they can relax and eat a Clif Bar.

RichC

RichC

Dane Jackson said:

Mike McGuire said:

Dane Jackson said:

Upon realizing the same [censored] has just drafted me across the I-90
bridge for the third time in recent memory, I decided to mention to
him that it was rude to draft without asking. As we reached the end
of the bridge he pulled up next to me and asked how I was doing.

How about a sign that says "Chews Tobacco, Draft at Your Own Risk!"

I was thinking more along the lines of:

"Periodic Volcanic Flatulence. Draft at Your Own Risk!"

That is another solution, just let one go, the illegal drafter will get
the message real fast, especially if your capable of the "silent death
bomb", all stink, no noise. After all, you didn't really know they were
there, did you.....

W