Results of alt cancer treatment

--

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet that
these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments. I had some like this in my practice in patients eventually
forced by relatives to seek real help. You would have to go back over a
hundred years otherwise, to see things like this.

Not for the squeamish.

http://www.vci.org/treatmen.htm

Peter Moran

Actually, I ran into one of those horrendous advanced breast cancers last
year in my ER that was not the end result of alternative treatments. It was
the end result of no treatment at all due to complete denial. The woman was
young, in her thirties, and had been diagnosed two years previously and
referred to a surgeon. But she had skipped the surgical consult appointment,
ignored all follow-up communication, and had not surfaced again until she
showed up in the ER seeking pain relief. Some people, when face with a
frightening disease run about seeking help from every source they can find.
But as my lady illustrates, others hide, pretend nothing is really wrong,
and hope it all goes away.

I don't know what has happened with this patient. We referred her back to
the physician who originally diagnosed the cancer. He was very gracious to
accept the referral, even though he was not obligated to. I have not asked
him about the outcome because I feel it would be a violation of patient
confidentiality.

--Rich

Peter Moran said:

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet that
these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments. I had some like this in my practice in patients eventually
forced by relatives to seek real help. You would have to go back over a
hundred years otherwise, to see things like this.

Not for the squeamish.

http://www.vci.org/treatmen.htm

well, I am far from squeamish.

Two years ago a family member had a soccer ball size 'goiter' a week
before she died. She had undergone conventional treatment for breast
cancer, but started too late as she had 90% positive lymph nodes when
she had a radical mastectomy. She did not like doctors.

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

--

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet that
these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments. I had some like this in my practice in patients eventually
forced by relatives to seek real help. You would have to go back over

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hundred years otherwise, to see things like this.

Not for the squeamish.

http://www.vci.org/treatmen.htm

Peter Moran

Actually, I ran into one of those horrendous advanced breast cancers last
year in my ER that was not the end result of alternative treatments. It

was

Quoted message said:

the end result of no treatment at all due to complete denial. The woman

was

Quoted message said:

young, in her thirties, and had been diagnosed two years previously and
referred to a surgeon. But she had skipped the surgical consult

appointment,

Quoted message said:

ignored all follow-up communication, and had not surfaced again until she
showed up in the ER seeking pain relief. Some people, when face with a
frightening disease run about seeking help from every source they can

find.

Quoted message said:

But as my lady illustrates, others hide, pretend nothing is really wrong,
and hope it all goes away.

How do you know she was not using alternative methods? Patients are known
to often conceal that fact. It would be very unusual these days for such
a person not to accept the offer of of easy cure from alternative sources.
I allow that there will be occasional people who do not resort to any kind
of treatment.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Actually, I ran into one of those horrendous advanced breast cancers
last year in my ER that was not the end result of alternative
treatments. It was the end result of no treatment at all due to
complete denial. The woman was young, in her thirties, and had been
diagnosed two years previously and referred to a surgeon. But she had
skipped the surgical consult appointment, ignored all follow-up
communication, and had not surfaced again until she showed up in the
ER seeking pain relief. Some people, when face with a frightening
disease run about seeking help from every source they can find. But as
my lady illustrates, others hide, pretend nothing is really wrong, and
hope it all goes away.

Reminds me of an aunt of mine (my father's oldest sister) who allowed a
breast tumor to reach the size of an orange before she even saw a doctor,
and then made all sorts of excuses to avoid treatment (claiming, for
example, that as a Catholic she couldn't take any hormone-based
treatments). Eventually she died of it, at age 65. Her next-youngest
sister is now 89, the next one died last week at 87, the next-youngest is
now 85 and in pretty good health and my father, the baby of his family, is
in good health at 78. So it's almost certain that she died at least 20
years prematurely because of her denial.

By the way, when she was finally hospitalized, the doctors performed all
sorts of unnecessary tests and procedures simply so they could bill
Medicare. It was quite disgusting. They even wanted to do a
pneumoencephalogram, which would have been clinically useless as well as
being a highly invasive, painful procedure (it's an X-ray of the brain
done after inflating the brain ventricles with air, or I should say it
*was*, because it's been thankfully rendered obsolete by the CT scan), and
it took repeated interventions from her daughter-in-law to prevent it (they
told her DIL that they had called it off, and then when her DIL went to
visit she found that my aunt was still scheduled for it).

But you know what? None of that disgusting behavior on the part of a
handful of conventional doctors 25 years ago makes me think that any
"alternatives" are effective. Why would it? The "alternatives" have to
stand on their own merits. The fact that she'd have been better off with
purely palliative care than with the treatment she received says *nothing*
about whether she'd have been better off with any "alternatives" than with
palliative care.

But you do not KNOW, do you?
"Eric Bohlman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Actually, I ran into one of those horrendous advanced breast cancers
last year in my ER that was not the end result of alternative
treatments. It was the end result of no treatment at all due to
complete denial. The woman was young, in her thirties, and had been
diagnosed two years previously and referred to a surgeon. But she had
skipped the surgical consult appointment, ignored all follow-up
communication, and had not surfaced again until she showed up in the
ER seeking pain relief. Some people, when face with a frightening
disease run about seeking help from every source they can find. But as
my lady illustrates, others hide, pretend nothing is really wrong, and
hope it all goes away.

Reminds me of an aunt of mine (my father's oldest sister) who allowed a
breast tumor to reach the size of an orange before she even saw a doctor,
and then made all sorts of excuses to avoid treatment (claiming, for
example, that as a Catholic she couldn't take any hormone-based
treatments). Eventually she died of it, at age 65. Her next-youngest
sister is now 89, the next one died last week at 87, the next-youngest is
now 85 and in pretty good health and my father, the baby of his family, is
in good health at 78. So it's almost certain that she died at least 20
years prematurely because of her denial.

By the way, when she was finally hospitalized, the doctors performed all
sorts of unnecessary tests and procedures simply so they could bill
Medicare. It was quite disgusting. They even wanted to do a
pneumoencephalogram, which would have been clinically useless as well as
being a highly invasive, painful procedure (it's an X-ray of the brain
done after inflating the brain ventricles with air, or I should say it
*was*, because it's been thankfully rendered obsolete by the CT scan), and
it took repeated interventions from her daughter-in-law to prevent it

(they

Quoted message said:

told her DIL that they had called it off, and then when her DIL went to
visit she found that my aunt was still scheduled for it).

But you know what? None of that disgusting behavior on the part of a
handful of conventional doctors 25 years ago makes me think that any
"alternatives" are effective. Why would it? The "alternatives" have to
stand on their own merits. The fact that she'd have been better off with
purely palliative care than with the treatment she received says *nothing*
about whether she'd have been better off with any "alternatives" than with
palliative care.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Results of alt cancer treatment
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 8/19/2003 2:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet that
these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments.

Can you?

You are saying this is the result of alternative treatment. And you are
guessing. And these kind of pictures never happen with conventional medicine.

I don't think so.

Your effort to trash alternative medicine are well known, and they aren't
working.

http://www.alternativedr.com/news.html

http://www.heall.com/body/altmed/future/growthofaltmed.html

http://aff.weatherbug.com/aff/default.asp?zcode=Z3702

Jan

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Albert Einstein

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Results of alt cancer treatment
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 8/19/2003 2:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet that
these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments.

Can you?

With a high degree of probability..

Quoted message said:

You are saying this is the result of alternative treatment. And you are
guessing. And these kind of pictures never happen with conventional

medicine.

I am not guessing. I have been treating breast cancer for thirty years, and
have never seen cancers like this. The worst ones I have seen are in
patients who have refused treatment and/or decided to "try alternatives
first".

Quoted message said:

I don't think so.

Your opinion is utterly worthless.

Quoted message said:

Your effort to trash alternative medicine are well known, and they aren't
working.

Am I trying to trash alternative medicine? I see myself as trying to
create a reasonably accurate perspective of alternaitve cancer treatments
wherein for every wonderful testimonial there are hundreds or thousands who
derive no benefit from the trial of dozens of different alt methods,

I also am not too concerned about those who use alternaitves when all else
fails. What I am concerned about is the people with curable cancers are
being misled.

If I can save one person from losing their life or ending up like these poor
women through relying on useless methods it will be worthwhile.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

http://www.alternativedr.com/news.html

http://www.heall.com/body/altmed/future/growthofaltmed.html

http://aff.weatherbug.com/aff/default.asp?zcode=Z3702

Jan

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are

evil,

Quoted message said:

but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Albert Einstein

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments.

Can you?

With a high degree of probability..

What BS! Far more likely is that the person had friends and relatives who
went to a "doctor" like you say, and suffered and died painfuly. So she was
afraid to go to anyone. Eventuly, she found out that there were
ALTERNATIVES, and went to the Alt. But by then it was very advanced.
If conv. was all that wonderful, people would not be afraid to see the md
about things sooner. But instead of being honest with people about cancer,
you take as much money as you can get before they die.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You are saying this is the result of alternative treatment. And you are
guessing. And these kind of pictures never happen with conventional

medicine.

I am not guessing. I have been treating breast cancer for thirty years,

and

Quoted message said:

have never seen cancers like this.

Must be nice to only have obediant little paitents. You don't see a lot of
older women do you? A lot of older women come from a culture where one is
too embarassed to talk to the doctor about their breasts or sexual organs.
If you do not see this , you are world-class dumb.
The worst ones I have seen are in

Quoted message said:

patients who have refused treatment and/or decided to "try alternatives
first".

Please do tell us what % "refuse, and what % "try" alternatives. Please do
provide proof.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think so.

Your opinion is utterly worthless.

And your opinion "peter", is dangorus for the poor folks who trust you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your effort to trash alternative medicine are well known, and they

aren't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

working.

Am I trying to trash alternative medicine?

Do not try to be cute, you are not qualified.
I see myself as trying to

Quoted message said:

create a reasonably accurate perspective of alternaitve cancer treatments
wherein for every wonderful testimonial there are hundreds or thousands

who

Quoted message said:

derive no benefit from the trial of dozens of different alt methods,

What compleat BS. Also, you might do well to see other people instead of
looking in the mirror.

Quoted message said:

I also am not too concerned about those who use alternaitves when all

else

Quoted message said:

fails.

In other words, you want to take as much money as you can , and when they
run out of money, or it becomes obvious that the person is so advanced and
so further injured by your "treatments", then you are not concerned.
What I am concerned about is the people with curable cancers are

Quoted message said:

being misled.

So are the Alt folks.........................................

Quoted message said:

If I can save one person from losing their life or ending up like these

poor

Quoted message said:

women through relying on useless methods it will be worthwhile.

Peter Moran

Cute, but mighty hollow.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.alternativedr.com/news.html

http://www.heall.com/body/altmed/future/growthofaltmed.html

http://aff.weatherbug.com/aff/default.asp?zcode=Z3702

Jan

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who

are

Quoted message said:

evil,

Quoted message said:

but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Albert Einstein

<snip>

Quoted message said:

If I can save one person from losing their life or ending up like these poor
women through relying on useless methods it will be worthwhile.

Peter Moran

An old Jewish saying goes "To save one life is to save the world". No wonder
Jan opposes your effort and intentions.

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You can not be certain what caused the clear up's of these cancers, be it
mainstream or hypothermia.
Anth

I know that radiotherapy will do this. Breast cancer is invariably
radiosensitive. What we don't know is whether the hyperthermia has
helped.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
>Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
>treatments.

Can you?

With a high degree of probability..

What BS! Far more likely is that the person had friends and relatives who
went to a "doctor" like you say, and suffered and died painfuly. So she

was

Quoted message said:

afraid to go to anyone. Eventuly, she found out that there were
ALTERNATIVES, and went to the Alt. But by then it was very advanced.
If conv. was all that wonderful, people would not be afraid to see the md
about things sooner. But instead of being honest with people about cancer,
you take as much money as you can get before they die.

You mean to say, when they are being offered easy cures of cancer right,
left, and centre from AM these days, that they did not decide to try them
out? Come on! It is possible but not very likely that one or two may fit
your description..

The really sad thing about these cases is that cancers don't get to this
size unless they have little tendency to metastasise. With the more
aggressive breast cancers the metastases will have killed the patient off
long before this.

This means that with conventional treatment these patients had a very high
likelihood of being completely cured if treated at an earlier stage. Now
they are at great risk of ongoing cancer regardless of any treatment. They
will almost certainly get regrowth of the cancer if the cancer cannot be now
be completely removed surgically.
..
Peter Moran

True and it kind of 'messes up' the experimental results for both sides.
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You can not be certain what caused the clear up's of these cancers, be

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mainstream or hypothermia.
Anth

I know that radiotherapy will do this. Breast cancer is invariably
radiosensitive. What we don't know is whether the hyperthermia has
helped.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Moran said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Results of alt cancer treatment
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 8/19/2003 2:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet that
these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments.

Can you?

With a high degree of probability..

Quoted message said:

You are saying this is the result of alternative treatment. And you are
guessing. And these kind of pictures never happen with conventional

medicine.

I am not guessing. I have been treating breast cancer for thirty years, and
have never seen cancers like this. The worst ones I have seen are in
patients who have refused treatment and/or decided to "try alternatives
first".

Indeed. I haven't seen breast cancers that advanced in a long time, and
I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of patients I've seen
in 15 years with such advanced tumors. However, in my experience, the
more frequent case when I've seen breast cancers like that is that the
woman never sought treatment of any kind. Denial is a powerful
psychological defense mechanism. One woman I saw didn't come in until
her family made her come in after they started to notice the smell from
her disgusting, fungating, bleeding, necrotic breast cancer.

What the alties don't tell you is that even such advanced tumors often
respond quite well to standard medical therapy, including chemotherapy,
hormonal therapy, and radiation, with good tumor shrinkage and durable
remissions. Those who do not have metastatic disease at the time of
diagnosis can even have long-term survival.) One woman I saw with a
locally advanced fungating tumor whom I immediately referred to the
medical oncologist took Arimidex (an estrogen blocker) alone and her
primary tumor essentially melted away. Unfortunately she also had
metastatic disease at the time of diagnosis and was thus not curable,
but she got good tumor shrinkage and a vastly improved quality of life
with minimal side effects.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> >
> >Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
> >treatments.
>
> Can you?

With a high degree of probability..

What BS! Far more likely is that the person had friends and relatives who
went to a "doctor" like you say, and suffered and died painfuly. So she

was

Quoted message said:

afraid to go to anyone. Eventuly, she found out that there were
ALTERNATIVES, and went to the Alt. But by then it was very advanced.
If conv. was all that wonderful, people would not be afraid to see the md
about things sooner. But instead of being honest with people about cancer,
you take as much money as you can get before they die.

You mean to say, when they are being offered easy cures of cancer right,
left, and centre from AM these days, that they did not decide to try them
out? Come on! It is possible but not very likely that one or two may fit
your description..

The really sad thing about these cases is that cancers don't get to this
size unless they have little tendency to metastasise. With the more
aggressive breast cancers the metastases will have killed the patient off
long before this.

This means that with conventional treatment these patients had a very high
likelihood of being completely cured if treated at an earlier stage. Now
they are at great risk of ongoing cancer regardless of any treatment. They
will almost certainly get regrowth of the cancer if the cancer cannot be now
be completely removed surgically.

Peter, your most civil reply to "David" is further demonstration of
what I concluded about you from reading your posts from the very first
time. You are a gentleman.

David, OTOH, needs to learn a thing or two about it.

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Results of alt cancer treatment
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 8/19/2003 2:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet that
these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments.

Can you?

You are saying this is the result of alternative treatment. And you are
guessing. And these kind of pictures never happen with conventional medicine.

I don't think so.

Peter's comments were based on 30 years of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Have
YOU ever seen tumors that size? Two posters who have over 45 years
personal experience treating cancer have not seen them in conventional
medicine. Try to understand what they write.

Sad that you discount personal experience that does not coincide with
your preconceived "ideas."

Quoted message said:

Your effort to trash alternative medicine are well known, and they aren't
working.

AltMed does a fine job of self-trashing, and you sure do help it
along.

Drivel deleted.

"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> > >
> > >Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can

bet

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that

Quoted message said:

> > >these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of

alternative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >treatments.
> >
> > Can you?
>
> With a high degree of probability..
>
What BS! Far more likely is that the person had friends and relatives

who

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

went to a "doctor" like you say, and suffered and died painfuly. So

she

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was

Quoted message said:

afraid to go to anyone. Eventuly, she found out that there were
ALTERNATIVES, and went to the Alt. But by then it was very advanced.
If conv. was all that wonderful, people would not be afraid to see the

md

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about things sooner. But instead of being honest with people about

cancer,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you take as much money as you can get before they die.

You mean to say, when they are being offered easy cures of cancer right,
left, and centre from AM these days, that they did not decide to try

them

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out? Come on! It is possible but not very likely that one or two may

fit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your description..

The really sad thing about these cases is that cancers don't get to this
size unless they have little tendency to metastasise. With the more
aggressive breast cancers the metastases will have killed the patient

off

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

long before this.

This means that with conventional treatment these patients had a very

high

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

likelihood of being completely cured if treated at an earlier stage.

Now

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they are at great risk of ongoing cancer regardless of any treatment.

They

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will almost certainly get regrowth of the cancer if the cancer cannot be

now

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be completely removed surgically.

Peter, your most civil reply to "David" is further demonstration of
what I concluded about you from reading your posts from the very first
time. You are a gentleman.

David, OTOH, needs to learn a thing or two about it.

David makes no claim to be a "gentleman".

"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Results of alt cancer treatment
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 8/19/2003 2:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Since they are now being treated in a "holistic" centre you can bet

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

these extremely advanced cancers are the end results of alternative
treatments.

Can you?

You are saying this is the result of alternative treatment. And you are
guessing. And these kind of pictures never happen with conventional

medicine.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think so.

Peter's comments were based on 30 years of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Have
YOU ever seen tumors that size? Two posters who have over 45 years
personal experience treating cancer have not seen them in conventional
medicine. Try to understand what they write.

Sad that you discount personal experience that does not coincide with
your preconceived "ideas."

Quoted message said:

Your effort to trash alternative medicine are well known, and they

aren't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

working.

AltMed does a fine job of self-trashing, and you sure do help it
along.

Drivel deleted.

I wonder how mark became so full of it.