AM and cancer survival

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T68-47T2G50-M&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2003&_alid=115111688&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5024&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c5bd5461106ecc21dbeb52649477db8c

Quoted message said:

Anth

This study found that those using alternative cancer treatments did not live
longer than those who did not. Here is another, specific to orthomolecular
therapy.

Mega-dose vitamins and minerals in the treatment of non-metastatic breast
cancer: an historical cohort study.

Lesperance ML, Olivotto IA, Forde N, Zhao Y, Speers C, Foster H, Tsao M,
MacPherson N, Hoffer A.

Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Victoria, Victoria,
British Columbia, Canada. [email hidden]

BACKGROUND: Alternative therapies such as mega-dose vitamins and minerals
are commonly used by women with breast cancer, but their effect on
recurrence and survival have rarely been evaluated. METHODS: Survival and
recurrence outcomes for 90 women with unilateral non-metastatic breast
cancer diagnosed between 1989 and 1998, and who had been prescribed
mega-doses of beta-carotene, vitamin C, niacin, selenium, coenzyme Q10, and
zinc in addition to standard therapies were compared with matched controls.
The 90 treated patients were prescribed combinations from three to six of
the vitamins and minerals listed above. The controls were matched (2:1) to
the vitamin/mineral patients for age at diagnosis, presence of axillary
lymph node metastasis, tumor stage, grade, estrogen receptor status, year of
diagnosis, and prescription of systemic therapy. All subjects were patients
of the British Columbia Cancer Agency, Vancouver Island Centre. FINDINGS:
Median follow-up of surviving patients was 68 months (minimum 20 months, 133
months maximum). The vitamin/mineral patients and controls were well
matched. Two endpoints were considered. Breast cancer-specific survival (p =
0.19) and disease-free survival (p = 0.08) times for the vitamin/mineral
treated group were shorter, after adjusting for diagnostic variables using a
Cox proportional hazards model. The hazard ratios for the vitamin/mineral
treated group versus the control group were estimated at 1.75 (95% CI =
0.83-2.69) for disease-specific survival and 1.55 (95% CI = 0.94-2.54) for
disease-free survival. Overall survival was similar for the two groups
(log-rank test, p = 0.36). INTERPRETATION: Breast cancer-specific survival
and disease-free survival times were not improved for the vitamin/mineral
treated group over those for the controls.

Pauling's study of Hoffer's patients used a different control group- those
who saw Hoffer but did not use his recommended treatment. They all died
fairly quickly, but there has always been uncertainty as to whether they
were a strictly comparable group.

Peter Moran

Anth <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T68-47T2G50-M&_co
verDate=02%2F28%2F2003&_alid=115111688&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi
=5024&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md
5=c5bd5461106ecc21dbeb52649477db8c

Quoted message said:

Anth

In their discussion, the authors write:

"To our knowledge, we are the first to demonstrate a negative correlation
between AM use and survival. If patients do perceive the gravity of their
disease better than their physicians, and if the use of AM mirrors ths fear,
we have demonstrated a new reason why we should assess patients' use of AM.
We hope that other groups will further evaluate the relationship between
prognosis and the use of AM."

--

Robert Bronsing

Can't you see?
It all makes perfect sense,
expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence

(R. Waters)

I bought the whole article (Summary) :-

Number of people using only one AM therapy.

25/58 used healing by a healer or religious leader only
5/58 used homeopathy
0/58 used reflexology
6/58 used herbs/vitamins
5/58 used diets
6/58 used Nitter therapy
8/58 used mistletoe
3/58 used others. (mainly acupuncture or visualisation)

Number patients using a combination of other AM therapies (n=54)

43/54 used healing by a healer or religious leader only
17/54 used homeopathy
7/54 used reflexology
18/54 used herbs/vitamins
18/54 used diets
9/54 used Nitter therapy
16/54 used mistletoe
13/54 used others. (mainly acupuncture or visualisation)

I'm tired right now - when I look at it more I will post some comments.
Anth

Quoted message said:

Subject: AM and cancer survival
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 9/24/2003 1:38 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T68-47T2G50-M&

_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2003&_alid=115111688&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1
&_cdi=5024&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_useri
d=10&md5=c5bd5461106ecc21dbe

Quoted message said:

b52649477db8c
Anth

And.

http://www.cancerdecisions.com/beatcancer_frm.html

http://www.mdanderson.org/departments/cimer/

http://www.sumeria.net/health/rectcan.html

http://www.cancerinform.org/motive.html

http://www.cancerinform.freewebsites.com/docs.html

http://www.whatareweswallowing.freeserve.co.uk/chemospill.htm

http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20020917-53638872.htm

http://nccam.nih.gov/clinicaltrials/cancer.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/Healthology/sept11HS_508939Alternati
veCancerTreatments020910.html#

http://www.healthology.com/webcast_transcript.asp?f=alt_medicine&c=growing
&b=abcnews&spg=REV

http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/article.asp?PageType=Article&ID=510

http://www.starhq.com/html/localnews/1102/110402AlternativeMed.html

Jan

I wouldn't expect faith healers to have any effect on cancer death, but I'm
curious to see where the blip comes from.
Anth

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

(again I don't have the full article, I'm still going through this one I've
just bought)
How could you be sure that the control group wasn't secretly dosing on
vitamins also?
Also there's no evaluation on how the vitamins effected the suffering of the
groups.
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T68-47T2G50-M&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2003&_alid=115111688&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5024&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c5bd5461106ecc21dbeb52649477db8c

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth

This study found that those using alternative cancer treatments did not

live

Quoted message said:

longer than those who did not. Here is another, specific to

orthomolecular

Quoted message said:

therapy.

Mega-dose vitamins and minerals in the treatment of non-metastatic breast
cancer: an historical cohort study.

Lesperance ML, Olivotto IA, Forde N, Zhao Y, Speers C, Foster H, Tsao M,
MacPherson N, Hoffer A.

Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Victoria,

Victoria,

Quoted message said:

British Columbia, Canada. [email hidden]

BACKGROUND: Alternative therapies such as mega-dose vitamins and minerals
are commonly used by women with breast cancer, but their effect on
recurrence and survival have rarely been evaluated. METHODS: Survival and
recurrence outcomes for 90 women with unilateral non-metastatic breast
cancer diagnosed between 1989 and 1998, and who had been prescribed
mega-doses of beta-carotene, vitamin C, niacin, selenium, coenzyme Q10,

and

Quoted message said:

zinc in addition to standard therapies were compared with matched

controls.

Quoted message said:

The 90 treated patients were prescribed combinations from three to six of
the vitamins and minerals listed above. The controls were matched (2:1) to
the vitamin/mineral patients for age at diagnosis, presence of axillary
lymph node metastasis, tumor stage, grade, estrogen receptor status, year

of

Quoted message said:

diagnosis, and prescription of systemic therapy. All subjects were

patients

Quoted message said:

of the British Columbia Cancer Agency, Vancouver Island Centre. FINDINGS:
Median follow-up of surviving patients was 68 months (minimum 20 months,

133

Quoted message said:

months maximum). The vitamin/mineral patients and controls were well
matched. Two endpoints were considered. Breast cancer-specific survival (p

=

Quoted message said:

0.19) and disease-free survival (p = 0.08) times for the vitamin/mineral
treated group were shorter, after adjusting for diagnostic variables using

a

Quoted message said:

Cox proportional hazards model. The hazard ratios for the vitamin/mineral
treated group versus the control group were estimated at 1.75 (95% CI =
0.83-2.69) for disease-specific survival and 1.55 (95% CI = 0.94-2.54) for
disease-free survival. Overall survival was similar for the two groups
(log-rank test, p = 0.36). INTERPRETATION: Breast cancer-specific survival
and disease-free survival times were not improved for the vitamin/mineral
treated group over those for the controls.

Pauling's study of Hoffer's patients used a different control group- those
who saw Hoffer but did not use his recommended treatment. They all died
fairly quickly, but there has always been uncertainty as to whether they
were a strictly comparable group.

Peter Moran

"Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anth <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T68-47T2G50-M&_co

Quoted message said:

verDate=02%2F28%2F2003&_alid=115111688&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi

Quoted message said:

=5024&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md

Quoted message said:

5=c5bd5461106ecc21dbeb52649477db8c

Quoted message said:

Anth

In their discussion, the authors write:

"To our knowledge, we are the first to demonstrate a negative correlation
between AM use and survival. If patients do perceive the gravity of their
disease better than their physicians, and if the use of AM mirrors ths

fear,

Quoted message said:

we have demonstrated a new reason why we should assess patients' use of

AM.

Quoted message said:

We hope that other groups will further evaluate the relationship between
prognosis and the use of AM."

A lot of ifs and unlikelihoods there.

It is equally likely that patients who are prone towards AM usage present
later with their cancers than those who don't. This may explain why the
most detrimental effects of AM usage were in those with the best performance
status (ECOG 0). It will be the influence of patients who decided to try
a variety of alternative cures for their symptoms before seeing a doctor.
Many AM philosophies are also antithetical to the early detection of cancer.

Peter Moran

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anth <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T68-47T2G50-M&_co

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

verDate=02%2F28%2F2003&_alid=115111688&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

=5024&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5=c5bd5461106ecc21dbeb52649477db8c

Quoted message said:

Anth

In their discussion, the authors write:

"To our knowledge, we are the first to demonstrate a negative

correlation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

between AM use and survival. If patients do perceive the gravity of

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disease better than their physicians, and if the use of AM mirrors ths

fear,

Quoted message said:

we have demonstrated a new reason why we should assess patients' use of

AM.

Quoted message said:

We hope that other groups will further evaluate the relationship between
prognosis and the use of AM."

A lot of ifs and unlikelihoods there.

It is equally likely that patients who are prone towards AM usage present
later with their cancers than those who don't. This may explain why

the

Quoted message said:

most detrimental effects of AM usage were in those with the best

performance

Quoted message said:

status (ECOG 0). It will be the influence of patients who decided to

try

Quoted message said:

a variety of alternative cures for their symptoms before seeing a doctor.
Many AM philosophies are also antithetical to the early detection of

cancer.

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran

I would add "if the findings are real". There are small numbers in a
rather weak study design.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

What gets me is there is maybe 50% AM using homeopathy, which basically will
have no effect at all.
So that should shouldn't effect the life of the groups.
I'm going to understand the models and math they used, and have a fiddle
with it on my computer, to see what factors have an impact.
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anth <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T68-47T2G50-M&_co

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

verDate=02%2F28%2F2003&_alid=115111688&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

=5024&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5=c5bd5461106ecc21dbeb52649477db8c
> Anth
>
>

In their discussion, the authors write:

"To our knowledge, we are the first to demonstrate a negative

correlation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

between AM use and survival. If patients do perceive the gravity of

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disease better than their physicians, and if the use of AM mirrors ths

fear,

Quoted message said:

we have demonstrated a new reason why we should assess patients' use

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AM.

Quoted message said:

We hope that other groups will further evaluate the relationship

between

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

prognosis and the use of AM."

A lot of ifs and unlikelihoods there.

It is equally likely that patients who are prone towards AM usage

present

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

later with their cancers than those who don't. This may explain why

the

Quoted message said:

most detrimental effects of AM usage were in those with the best

performance

Quoted message said:

status (ECOG 0). It will be the influence of patients who decided to

try

Quoted message said:

a variety of alternative cures for their symptoms before seeing a

doctor.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many AM philosophies are also antithetical to the early detection of

cancer.

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran

I would add "if the findings are real". There are small numbers in a
rather weak study design.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Looking at these figures -
In the AM group, 34.8% localised or regional 65.2% distant
metastasis.
In the non AM group 46.8 % localised or regional 53.2% distant metastasis.
Does anyone think that these figures could be responsible for the difference
in death rates between the groups?
Anth

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T68-47T2G50-M&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2003&_alid=115111688&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5024&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c5bd5461106ecc21dbeb52649477db8c

Quoted message said:

Anth