T-Mobile's strategy for the Alps

Quoted message said:

Survival of the fittest ?

Or do they have something slightly more sophisticated planned this
time ?

Dumbass -

They've got the same underachievers running the show - why should this
year be any different?

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Survival of the fittest ?

Or do they have something slightly more sophisticated planned this
time ?

Dumbass -

They've got the same underachievers running the show - why should this
year be any different?

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

For one thing, Vino's back. I hope he gets fed up with the "plan," or lack
thereof, and rides for himself. Then again, if there's any truth to the
rumors of his negotiations with Discovery, he may not want to upset any
applecarts.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

Quoted message said:

Survival of the fittest ?

Quoted message said:

Or do they have something slightly more sophisticated planned this
time ?

DSC has the horses to keep the pace too high to attack. So there
really isn't any strategy. You do your best to not get eaten by
the fast run in and try to go with LANCE and beat him.

There will only be a couple of stages where time could be gained
on LANCE. The first is Courchevel. Things will hit the fan there.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

For one thing, Vino's back. I hope he gets fed up with the "plan," or lack
thereof, and rides for himself. Then again, if there's any truth to the
rumors of his negotiations with Discovery, he may not want to upset any
applecarts.

If he is smart, he won't let any negotiaions with Discovery interfere with
his team plans. Discovery is not paying his salary yet.
---------------
Alex

I agree. He can show the Discovery boys he just as good if not better
than most of the team. It will give him a leverage to deal with at the
negotiation of money.

"Alex Rodriguez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

For one thing, Vino's back. I hope he gets fed up with the "plan," or
lack
thereof, and rides for himself. Then again, if there's any truth to the
rumors of his negotiations with Discovery, he may not want to upset any
applecarts.

If he is smart, he won't let any negotiaions with Discovery interfere with
his team plans. Discovery is not paying his salary yet.
---------------

There could be a bonus for coming in second this year and first next year!

Bob has it right -- any teams stgrategy in the Alps is to suck
Discovery's wheels and not let their big pulls tire them out.

Their only hope is to follow the leader's team and make plans on the
fly depending on whatever Lance and his left-tenants are up to.

Don't overthink this one. Vino won't and neither will Heras, Levi or
Basso.

Let Horner get a 10 minute lead too. 😉

-Ken

k.papai said:

Bob has it right -- any teams stgrategy in the Alps is to suck
Discovery's wheels and not let their big pulls tire them out.

Their only hope is to follow the leader's team and make plans on the
fly depending on whatever Lance and his left-tenants are up to.

Don't overthink this one. Vino won't and neither will Heras, Levi or
Basso.

Let Horner get a 10 minute lead too. 😉

-Ken

Don't write Jan off yet. I think he was in the best shape he's been in
ages until he slammed through the window of the team car and almost
slit his throat along with the bruises. I can't believe they put Jan in
a situation for that to happen, but given the track record it really
isn't a shock.
That said it looks like Lance is in better shape than the last couple
of years so it's gonna be tough to do anything with him, especially
when the team is so strong too.
I'm just hoping that there are no crashes that really screw up any of
the leaders. Got to hand it to Vino for smarts and bike handling today.
Bill C

Bill C said:

k.papai said:

Bob has it right -- any teams stgrategy in the Alps is to suck
Discovery's wheels and not let their big pulls tire them out.

Their only hope is to follow the leader's team and make plans on the
fly depending on whatever Lance and his left-tenants are up to.

Don't overthink this one. Vino won't and neither will Heras, Levi or
Basso.

Let Horner get a 10 minute lead too. 😉

-Ken

Don't write Jan off yet. I think he was in the best shape he's been in
ages until he slammed through the window of the team car and almost
slit his throat along with the bruises. I can't believe they put Jan in
a situation for that to happen, but given the track record it really
isn't a shock.

I really liked that comment someone just made about LA realizing that the
Tour is won in the previous month, while Jan thinks the Tour is won in
July. <g>

You just -know- he's not in shape when he's trying those kinds of tricks
just days before the race. Having said that, durn, he recovered quickly.
I've had to take up to five days to recover psychicly after even minor
crashes!

Quoted message said:

That said it looks like Lance is in better shape than the last couple
of years so it's gonna be tough to do anything with him, especially
when the team is so strong too.

I think he shocked the world passing Jan like that in the ITT. Heh-heh, I
was sitting here quoting Ali: 'He shook up the world! He shook up the
world!!' (OK, fan-boy, but hell that was great. ;-p)

Quoted message said:

I'm just hoping that there are no crashes that really screw up any of
the leaders. Got to hand it to Vino for smarts and bike handling today.
Bill C

I'll tell you Bill if someone rides well enough to beat Lance, I'm changing
teams and cheering on that son-of-a-beyotch. Think about it! What could be
more exciting if Vino took off during a mountain stage and left everyone in
his dust!?

jj

Jet said:

Bill C said:

k.papai said:

Bob has it right -- any teams stgrategy in the Alps is to suck
Discovery's wheels and not let their big pulls tire them out.

Their only hope is to follow the leader's team and make plans on the
fly depending on whatever Lance and his left-tenants are up to.

Don't overthink this one. Vino won't and neither will Heras, Levi or
Basso.

Let Horner get a 10 minute lead too. 😉

-Ken

Don't write Jan off yet. I think he was in the best shape he's been in
ages until he slammed through the window of the team car and almost
slit his throat along with the bruises. I can't believe they put Jan in
a situation for that to happen, but given the track record it really
isn't a shock.

I really liked that comment someone just made about LA realizing that the
Tour is won in the previous month, while Jan thinks the Tour is won in
July. <g>

You just -know- he's not in shape when he's trying those kinds of tricks
just days before the race. Having said that, durn, he recovered quickly.
I've had to take up to five days to recover psychicly after even minor
crashes!

Quoted message said:

That said it looks like Lance is in better shape than the last couple
of years so it's gonna be tough to do anything with him, especially
when the team is so strong too.

I think he shocked the world passing Jan like that in the ITT. Heh-heh, I
was sitting here quoting Ali: 'He shook up the world! He shook up the
world!!' (OK, fan-boy, but hell that was great. ;-p)

Quoted message said:

I'm just hoping that there are no crashes that really screw up any of
the leaders. Got to hand it to Vino for smarts and bike handling today.
Bill C

I'll tell you Bill if someone rides well enough to beat Lance, I'm changing
teams and cheering on that son-of-a-beyotch. Think about it! What could be
more exciting if Vino took off during a mountain stage and left everyone in
his dust!?

jj

Yeah, thanks, I said that about the "month" thing and I think the
mountains is exactly when it will show itself again this year. Jan is
a tough SOB and will suffer hard to do his best. It's just that
Armstrong is one of those angry Type A personalities who does his
suffering before the tour. The guy has said repeatedly that he loves
to suffer/train and that he always suffers more in training than
actually at the TdF. THAT is what you call being in shape. It's not
about who suffers the most on race day.

That said, I think we will see something out of Jan this year in the
mountains. He will let Disco et. al. do the work and hang onto the
wheel of Armstrong, letting Lance drag him up the GC.

I hope Basso is in that mix as well. There would be nothing greater
than to watch those 3 huffing it 10 minutes ahead of the straggling
pack up Saint-Lary-Soulan ending stage 15.

D

Jet said:

Bill C said:

k.papai said:

Bob has it right -- any teams stgrategy in the Alps is to suck
Discovery's wheels and not let their big pulls tire them out.

Their only hope is to follow the leader's team and make plans on the
fly depending on whatever Lance and his left-tenants are up to.

Don't overthink this one. Vino won't and neither will Heras, Levi or
Basso.

Let Horner get a 10 minute lead too. 😉

-Ken

Don't write Jan off yet. I think he was in the best shape he's been in
ages until he slammed through the window of the team car and almost
slit his throat along with the bruises. I can't believe they put Jan in
a situation for that to happen, but given the track record it really
isn't a shock.

I really liked that comment someone just made about LA realizing that the
Tour is won in the previous month, while Jan thinks the Tour is won in
July. <g>

You just -know- he's not in shape when he's trying those kinds of tricks
just days before the race. Having said that, durn, he recovered quickly.
I've had to take up to five days to recover psychicly after even minor
crashes!

Quoted message said:

That said it looks like Lance is in better shape than the last couple
of years so it's gonna be tough to do anything with him, especially
when the team is so strong too.

I think he shocked the world passing Jan like that in the ITT. Heh-heh, I
was sitting here quoting Ali: 'He shook up the world! He shook up the
world!!' (OK, fan-boy, but hell that was great. ;-p)

Quoted message said:

I'm just hoping that there are no crashes that really screw up any of
the leaders. Got to hand it to Vino for smarts and bike handling today.
Bill C

I'll tell you Bill if someone rides well enough to beat Lance, I'm changing
teams and cheering on that son-of-a-beyotch. Think about it! What could be
more exciting if Vino took off during a mountain stage and left everyone in
his dust!?

jj

I think Jan would support him, but the team management and PR arm
would do a meltdown. Springer does the Tour? I hope that the team
decides to just keep sending Vino, Jan, and Kloden off the front to see
if anything sticks. They have no chance besides a crash otherwise.
You see T-Mobile is looking at selling off their North American
division? What does that do to the questionable T-Mobile/USAC women's
team? Is USAC going to support a team on it's own against the trade
teams, and what does that say about conflict of interest in selecting
Worlds and Olympics teams?
Big shakeups comings IMO. I really don't think Discovery Channel is
committed to cycling after Lance.
Gonna be a mess here shortly.
Bill C

David Ferguson said:

Quoted message said:

I'll tell you Bill if someone rides well enough to beat Lance, I'm changing
teams and cheering on that son-of-a-beyotch. Think about it! What could be
more exciting if Vino took off during a mountain stage and left everyone in
his dust!?

jj

Yeah, thanks, I said that about the "month" thing and I think the
mountains is exactly when it will show itself again this year. Jan is
a tough SOB and will suffer hard to do his best. It's just that
Armstrong is one of those angry Type A personalities who does his
suffering before the tour. The guy has said repeatedly that he loves
to suffer/train and that he always suffers more in training than
actually at the TdF. THAT is what you call being in shape. It's not
about who suffers the most on race day.

Good one. Uh, but I think LA suffers a different way during the Tour - more
concentratedly. He suffers well enough in the previous months, but it's uh,
a long, determined suffer, whereas during the Tour it's a 'digging deep'
suffer. I was very surprised to see in one of the 'Chasing Lance' segments
that he -has- ridden the major climbs of this Tour (according to Johann,
twice!). (I heard he was in Tenerife, but apparently he scrapped that plan
rather soon after he started.)

Quoted message said:

That said, I think we will see something out of Jan this year in the
mountains. He will let Disco et. al. do the work and hang onto the
wheel of Armstrong, letting Lance drag him up the GC.

I dunno, Dave, though I like Ullrich, I don't see it happening. He couldn't
hang on at the TdS, even though he -said- he didn't want to win it. Maybe
you're seeing something I don't. Ya know if Jan couldn't power up during
that humiliating pass in the ITT, he ain't gonna have it for the mountain
stages, sad to say.

Quoted message said:

I hope Basso is in that mix as well. There would be nothing greater
than to watch those 3 huffing it 10 minutes ahead of the straggling
pack up Saint-Lary-Soulan ending stage 15.

Vino, Basso, yeah, if their teams position them and provide enough support.
I think Vino might even be able to ride away from LA on a good day (and LA
having a bad day, lol).

jj

Quoted message said:

D

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

I'll tell you Bill if someone rides well enough to beat Lance, I'm changing
teams and cheering on that son-of-a-beyotch. Think about it! What could be
more exciting if Vino took off during a mountain stage and left everyone in
his dust!?

jj

I think Jan would support him, but the team management and PR arm
would do a meltdown.

Gee, I didn't even think about that...well Mgmt is playing into LA's best
hand then - the illusion that Ullich can carry the team - heh, or -be-
carried by the team (up the mtns).

Quoted message said:

Springer does the Tour? I hope that the team
decides to just keep sending Vino, Jan, and Kloden off the front to see
if anything sticks.

I don't think Kloden is in quite the shape he wishes he was. Wasn't he in
some kind of remedial training camp with some kind of unknown lack of
energy? (can't recall if it was him, but I think it was).

Quoted message said:

They have no chance besides a crash otherwise.
You see T-Mobile is looking at selling off their North American
division? What does that do to the questionable T-Mobile/USAC women's
team? Is USAC going to support a team on it's own against the trade
teams, and what does that say about conflict of interest in selecting
Worlds and Olympics teams?
Big shakeups comings IMO. I really don't think Discovery Channel is
committed to cycling after Lance.

Well-l-l, I think they are. Remember LA mentioned he has a 6 year contract
with them, if I heard him correctly. The first one to two seasons were in
cycling, and the rest as on-screen talent, AFAIK. I'm hoping that this
year's successes will really bring up the game of Tom Danielson, Popo, and
Savo, not to mention George. If the Tour could start making them more
visible, somewhat household names it could really do a lot to help change
the guard. Plus LA will still have his hand in (much to Johann's annoyance,
lol).

But yeah, shakeups. It's actually not that good for cycling for one team to
dominate too much. I'm glad the other teams did so well in the Classics at
least.

jj

Quoted message said:

Gonna be a mess here shortly.
Bill C

Jet said:

Good one. Uh, but I think LA suffers a different way during the Tour - more
concentratedly. He suffers well enough in the previous months, but it's uh,
a long, determined suffer, whereas during the Tour it's a 'digging deep'
suffer. I was very surprised to see in one of the 'Chasing Lance' segments
that he -has- ridden the major climbs of this Tour (according to Johann,
twice!). (I heard he was in Tenerife, but apparently he scrapped that plan
rather soon after he started.)

I recall a "bet" my roomate made with me in college that I couldn't
run up, touching each step, of a 22 story building on campus. I
thought he was an idiot. I had run the mile in HS and played Soccer so
I gave it a go, dying by floor 15 with debilitating lung and leg
pains. Within 2 weeks I could do the 22 floors and push to do it as
fast as I could(2'59"😉 and could not hurt like I did that first time.

I don't know if you get accustom to it or what but there is a
suffering that you can put behind you. I think Armstrong does that
with his pre tour training.

Quoted message said:

I dunno, Dave, though I like Ullrich, I don't see it happening. He couldn't
hang on at the TdS, even though he -said- he didn't want to win it. Maybe
you're seeing something I don't. Ya know if Jan couldn't power up during
that humiliating pass in the ITT, he ain't gonna have it for the mountain
stages, sad to say.

You are probably right. But what I'm thinking Ullrich would do for
this tour is learn to climb. He's already good at TTs, no worries on
long flats, but the difference is climbing. He watched Basso hang with
Armstrong last year and lost most of his time in the TT. So I just
think Jan would spend time working on his climbing skills.

Maybe wishful thinking as he's never going to be and angel.

And for god's sake, what was he peddling in the TT a 58x11? He looked
like a fred.

Quoted message said:

Vino, Basso, yeah, if their teams position them and provide enough support.
I think Vino might even be able to ride away from LA on a good day (and LA
having a bad day, lol).

jj

I hope that it's SOMETHING exciting.

D

Jet said:

Well-l-l, I think they are. Remember LA mentioned he has a 6 year contract
with them, if I heard him correctly. The first one to two seasons were in
cycling, and the rest as on-screen talent, AFAIK. I'm hoping that this
year's successes will really bring up the game of Tom Danielson, Popo, and
Savo, not to mention George. If the Tour could start making them more
visible, somewhat household names it could really do a lot to help change
the guard. Plus LA will still have his hand in (much to Johann's annoyance,
lol).

But yeah, shakeups. It's actually not that good for cycling for one team to
dominate too much. I'm glad the other teams did so well in the Classics at
least.

jj

I just can't see where the value is in the sponsorship for them after
Lance is gone unless they are trying to break into the Euro market with
some of their programming. Well, DUH!!! I just did a google for
Discovery channel Europe and found out, once again, how ignorant I am.
Makes perfect sense now.
I hope your right about the other riders and teams really picking up
the ball and going for it next year. Without Lance racing, and I think
Vino does jump ship, there should be a real battle next year between a
bunch of teams for GC.
And Jan gets slammed again, but I'm gonna start a new thread.
Bill C

Discovery channel is available in France, and I even saw an advert
for them on regular TV. Actually, it's pretty funny, it shows some
long haired ex-hippie working on his bicycle and his hair gets
stuck in his derailleur.

-ilan

Bill C a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just can't see where the value is in the sponsorship for them after
Lance is gone unless they are trying to break into the Euro market with
some of their programming. Well, DUH!!! I just did a google for
Discovery channel Europe and found out, once again, how ignorant I am.

Bill C said:

Don't write Jan off yet. I think he was in the best shape he's been in
ages until he slammed through the window of the team car and almost
slit his throat along with the bruises.

Did you se him in Tour de Swiss? He looked pretty bad especially on
the last stage, where he was dropped several times - at first by
A.Gonzales, then by F.Schleck and M.Rogers, then later on decicivly by
J.Voigt, F.Schleck, L.Piepopli and C.Horner. It wasn't just a singel
bad day, the same thing happend on an earlyer stage where C.Horner
won, and partialy the day before.

He may currently be at his top level at tempo riding, but he has to be
a lot better in the high mountains. The guys who dropped him on the
climbs two weeks ago, are riders who can only aim for 12-20 GC spots
in the Tour.
Rogers, Schleck and Voigt aren't even climbers. It's disturbing when a
TDF faviorite is dropped by J.Voigt, who shuldent be able to accelerate
away from Ulrich on an out-of-category climb in the high Alpes.

Ulrich is looking forward to his worst TDF yet. It's sad to see the
greatest talent ever continiously getting wasted by the company of
R.Penevage and T.Steinheüser - Guess he should had offered himself for
free to Riis back in 2003.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

PowerMac G5: 1.6GHz, 1.25GB RAM, 300+300GB SATA, 8xDVD+/-RW, Bluetooth
mus + tastatur, R9600PRO, iSight, eyeTV200 & LaCie Photon18Vision TFT

Bill C said:

Jet said:

Well-l-l, I think they are. Remember LA mentioned he has a 6 year contract
with them, if I heard him correctly. The first one to two seasons were in
cycling, and the rest as on-screen talent, AFAIK. I'm hoping that this
year's successes will really bring up the game of Tom Danielson, Popo, and
Savo, not to mention George. If the Tour could start making them more
visible, somewhat household names it could really do a lot to help change
the guard. Plus LA will still have his hand in (much to Johann's annoyance,
lol).

But yeah, shakeups. It's actually not that good for cycling for one team to
dominate too much. I'm glad the other teams did so well in the Classics at
least.

jj

I just can't see where the value is in the sponsorship for them after
Lance is gone unless they are trying to break into the Euro market with
some of their programming. Well, DUH!!! I just did a google for
Discovery channel Europe and found out, once again, how ignorant I am.

They've got some good programming, a fair amount of which hasn't even been
broadcast in the US yet.

Quoted message said:

Makes perfect sense now.
I hope your right about the other riders and teams really picking up
the ball and going for it next year. Without Lance racing, and I think
Vino does jump ship, there should be a real battle next year between a
bunch of teams for GC.

So where will Vino go? Dunno if Discovery would recruit him - certainly
they will if he gets a podium placing. If he does DC would have an
incredibly strong team. I'm surprised that some are speculating that DC
needs Jan, though... I can imagine Johann and him clashing a bit over
training discipline if the rumors are true.

Quoted message said:

And Jan gets slammed again, but I'm gonna start a new thread.

Well I think after this tour he'll be tempted to retire, especially if he's
out of the top ten - which he well may be.

jj

Quoted message said:

Bill C

Jet said:

Bill C said:

Jet said:

Well-l-l, I think they are. Remember LA mentioned he has a 6 year contract
with them, if I heard him correctly. The first one to two seasons were in
cycling, and the rest as on-screen talent, AFAIK. I'm hoping that this
year's successes will really bring up the game of Tom Danielson, Popo, and
Savo, not to mention George. If the Tour could start making them more
visible, somewhat household names it could really do a lot to help change
the guard. Plus LA will still have his hand in (much to Johann's annoyance,
lol).

But yeah, shakeups. It's actually not that good for cycling for one team to
dominate too much. I'm glad the other teams did so well in the Classics at
least.

jj

I just can't see where the value is in the sponsorship for them after
Lance is gone unless they are trying to break into the Euro market with
some of their programming. Well, DUH!!! I just did a google for
Discovery channel Europe and found out, once again, how ignorant I am.

They've got some good programming, a fair amount of which hasn't even been
broadcast in the US yet.

Quoted message said:

Makes perfect sense now.
I hope your right about the other riders and teams really picking up
the ball and going for it next year. Without Lance racing, and I think
Vino does jump ship, there should be a real battle next year between a
bunch of teams for GC.

So where will Vino go? Dunno if Discovery would recruit him - certainly
they will if he gets a podium placing. If he does DC would have an
incredibly strong team. I'm surprised that some are speculating that DC
needs Jan, though... I can imagine Johann and him clashing a bit over
training discipline if the rumors are true.

Vino's a tough call. I'd bet either DC for a few years, or CSC. He
wants to win and needs to do it soon, so the only place I can see him
going is to a top contender that will promise him the leaders spot for
the Tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And Jan gets slammed again, but I'm gonna start a new thread.

Well I think after this tour he'll be tempted to retire, especially if he's
out of the top ten - which he well may be.

jj

I think he's going to be back on the podium, but unless something
happens to Lance I just can't see him winning. If he's off the podium
it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see him retire. If he does Vino may
stay at T-Mobile as the leader there. If Jan disappoints again I think
it's finally going to be enough for team management to say to Jan your
not our team leader anymore and I'm really not sure whether he'd stay
to support his friends, which IMO is a solid possibility, or just
retires.
Bill C