Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

7 Speed Shimano Wheels

Started by Paul Cassel · · Last activity · 12 posts · 456 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Cycling Equipment
Published
11 August 2005
Last activity
14 August 2005
Original author
Paul Cassel
Posts
12
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
456
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–12 of 12
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Sooner or later I'm going to need to get new wheels for my older bike.
    Apparently something went awry with the rim / spoke nipple area of my
    current wheels according to my local expert and again, according to him,
    I 'should' replace the wheels sometime. So I'm in a slow market for
    wheels meaning I'm looking, but will buy only when I see a definite need
    or I get a can't refuse bargain.

    I've been looking at eBay and I find a good selection of wheels at
    reasonable prices from sellers who have upgraded to expensive wheels. I
    see, as advised to me in another thread, that I can get what I take to
    be good wheels for $200 or even less.

    My problem is that all the wheels I've seen (except for one with tubular
    rims) say they are compatible for Shimano 8,9,10 speed cogsets. I have a
    'short arm' Dura Ace with a 7 speed set.

    First, I do wish to upgrade my cogset to one with lower gearing anyway.
    Therefore I wonder if I can use my current derailleur with an 8 or 9
    speed cogset (is this bolt on?) or if I need to stick to the 7's, can I
    easily adapt one of these 8,9,10 speed rear wheels to my 7 speed cogset?

    I have strong mechanical skills from motorcycles, but lack specific
    bicycle wrenching skills. I do have access to a machine shop, but would
    prefer (greatly prefer) bolt on solutions. Thanks. -Paul

  2. Paul Cassel wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    My problem is that all the wheels I've seen (except for one with tubular
    rims) say they are compatible for Shimano 8,9,10 speed cogsets. I have a
    'short arm' Dura Ace with a 7 speed set.

    First, I do wish to upgrade my cogset to one with lower gearing anyway.
    Therefore I wonder if I can use my current derailleur with an 8 or 9
    speed cogset (is this bolt on?) or if I need to stick to the 7's, can I
    easily adapt one of these 8,9,10 speed rear wheels to my 7 speed cogset?


    <snip>

    If the stuff you have is very old, there were some incompatible bits in
    earlier DuraAce, which is not forward compatible with newer Shimano
    stuff.
    If the rear derailieur is not too old, it *should* be compatible with
    8/9/10-sp.

    Default suggestion in r.b.t - consult the Oracle -
    http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html
    Sheldon has the full info. on compatability betwee the various Shimano
    odds'n'ends, and also between manufacturers (Campag etc.).

    If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
    body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
    the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own.
    This will make the hub shorter, so:
    1. you may also need to transplant the axle from your current wheels,
    or cut down the one in the new wheels (the seven speed can be shorter).
    2. you probably will need to re-dish the wheel so that the rim is
    re-centred over the shortened hub.

    That'd be the cheapest option, and you could probably do it all, except
    perhaps the the re-dish.

    Given that you might be getting a new cassette anyway to change the
    gearing, if you also buy a 7-sp freehub body and axle, you can have two
    complete wheelsets (bar tubes/tyres), with different gearing etc. -
    might as well keep the old wheels complete as spares?
    With some careful work with spacers/washers etc. you could also set
    them up so that they can be swapped onto your bike without too much
    monkeying around with the rear derailieur/indexing and (if the rims are
    in the same ballpark width and depth-wise), the brakes

    Any other option depends on what kind of gear shifters you have - if
    you have 7-sp, you may be looking at changing them to support
    8/9/10-sp., or changing them to friction (ie non-indexed) shifting.

    I've seen bikes running 8-sp casettes on indexed 7-sp shifters, but
    although it worked, it didn't work really well. I'd imagine the
    shifting/indexing would be even worse with 9/10 casettes on 7 shifters.

    Hope this helps,

    bookieb

  3. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Paul Cassel said:

    Sooner or later I'm going to need to get new wheels for my older bike.
    Apparently something went awry with the rim / spoke nipple area of my
    current wheels according to my local expert and again, according to him,
    I 'should' replace the wheels sometime. So I'm in a slow market for
    wheels meaning I'm looking, but will buy only when I see a definite need
    or I get a can't refuse bargain.

    _ Maybe you should get a new "expert". It's a fairly
    straightforward job to put new rims on old hubs. A well
    maintained hub should last many many miles and at least two or
    three rims. If you're happy with your current hubs and gears,
    just rebuild the wheels with new rims. You might or might not
    want to replace the spokes at the same time[1]. If you can find a
    rim that matches the ERD[2] of your old rim, there is no reason
    to replace the spokes if they are relatively modern stainless
    steel and aren't damaged.

    _ Harris cyclery sells a nice pair of older 7spd hubs and can
    easily built up a nice wheelset for you for just a little more
    than you'd pay for used stuff on ebay. Ebay is great for getting
    hard to find stuff, but it's not particularly cheap for the most
    part.

    _ Booker C. Bense

    [1]- If you have a shop do this, most places will require that
    you replace the spokes as well. I would too if I ran a shop since
    you can't really make any kind of guarantee of the work if you
    don't replace the spokes. However, putting a new rim on old
    spokes is a pretty good place to start with learning to build
    wheels. If you're at all handy with tools, wheelbuilding is
    very straightforward, just requires a bit of patience.

    [2]- http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: 2.6.2

    iQCVAwUBQvuOlGTWTAjn5N/lAQEYMQP/d8bJ/Uif6+I5VBJROCN8p7KQjQMb3qGA
    +889EWh/7koHsJFw92Em+fGGPgLL+QYlbS2u5zANCXsuXAeCJ4ICSvsUxDryV+49
    NDQLOLmuxDPz/TqWclNoUkMFbjowj+KzpbIDqwPe+Bn9vlensXZKZ7adv+ErLbW2
    jiV8pe6vEbw=
    =xlu2
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  4. tsgtesting said:

    If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
    body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
    the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own. This will make
    the hub shorter, so:

    If it's an older (late eighties) 7spd cassette, and the rims are otherwise
    in decent shape, but you want to upgrade the rear sprockets, grab an Sram
    8spd cassette, break it apart (small set screw on back), and using the old
    spacers that are on your wheel (very important, the spacers size that is)
    create your own custom "cassette". The New sprocket widths differ ever so
    slightly from the old, but not enough for the index (or friction)
    shifting to be affected. You'll want to get a new chain if you do this.

    If it's a 7spd screw on freewheel, those are readily available, but the
    wheels you'll have to get built or buy on Fleabay.

    If it's a non-indexed system, I'd just get a modern 8spd cassette wheel
    (dirt cheap prebuilts available online). 4mm wider axle, but you should
    just be able to spring apart the rear drops when installing (or
    permenantly space them)

  5. Quoted message said:

    Paul Cassel wrote:

    Quoted message said:


    If the stuff you have is very old, there were some incompatible bits in
    earlier DuraAce, which is not forward compatible with newer Shimano
    stuff.
    If the rear derailieur is not too old, it *should* be compatible with
    8/9/10-sp.

    Default suggestion in r.b.t - consult the Oracle -
    http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html
    Sheldon has the full info. on compatability betwee the various Shimano
    odds'n'ends, and also between manufacturers (Campag etc.).

    !! Just the info I needed. I finally found some info on my setup. Before
    seeing this area of his site I thought I was running a one off. I think
    I've seen Sheldon post here (I've lurked for a while). Thanks to you for
    pointing this out and he for creating it.

    Quoted message said:


    If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
    body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
    the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own.
    This will make the hub shorter, so:
    1. you may also need to transplant the axle from your current wheels,
    or cut down the one in the new wheels (the seven speed can be shorter).
    2. you probably will need to re-dish the wheel so that the rim is
    re-centred over the shortened hub.

    That'd be the cheapest option, and you could probably do it all, except
    perhaps the the re-dish.

    Given that you might be getting a new cassette anyway to change the
    gearing, if you also buy a 7-sp freehub body and axle, you can have two
    complete wheelsets (bar tubes/tyres), with different gearing etc. -
    might as well keep the old wheels complete as spares?
    With some careful work with spacers/washers etc. you could also set
    them up so that they can be swapped onto your bike without too much
    monkeying around with the rear derailieur/indexing and (if the rims are
    in the same ballpark width and depth-wise), the brakes

    My current setup seems to be failing. The guy who owns the bike (I plan
    on buying it) says there is some problem emerging in the rims and the
    hubs are very low quality so I think I'm not going to try to create a
    two wheelset arrangement. I'd just leave things alone if I thought
    these wheels would hold up, but I'm told they aren't going to much
    longer and the parts that still function aren't very good anyway.

    Quoted message said:


    Any other option depends on what kind of gear shifters you have - if
    you have 7-sp, you may be looking at changing them to support
    8/9/10-sp., or changing them to friction (ie non-indexed) shifting.

    Quoted message said:

    I've seen bikes running 8-sp casettes on indexed 7-sp shifters, but
    although it worked, it didn't work really well. I'd imagine the
    shifting/indexing would be even worse with 9/10 casettes on 7 shifters.


    I'm content with the 7 speeds although I do need a different gear ratio
    set. I note from this chart that my job as far as the gearing is much
    easier than I anticipated because I can just swap my 23 sprocket for a
    28 which, I hope, will give me some reasonable gearing for where i live
    in the mtns. My chainrings are 45 and 52.

    Quoted message said:

    Hope this helps,


    It has enormously. Thank you. -paul

  6. maxo said:
    tsgtesting said:

    If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
    body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
    the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own. This will make
    the hub shorter, so:

    If it's an older (late eighties) 7spd cassette, and the rims are otherwise
    in decent shape, but you want to upgrade the rear sprockets, grab an Sram
    8spd cassette, break it apart (small set screw on back), and using the old
    spacers that are on your wheel (very important, the spacers size that is)
    create your own custom "cassette". The New sprocket widths differ ever so
    slightly from the old, but not enough for the index (or friction)
    shifting to be affected. You'll want to get a new chain if you do this.

    If it's a 7spd screw on freewheel, those are readily available, but the
    wheels you'll have to get built or buy on Fleabay.

    If it's a non-indexed system, I'd just get a modern 8spd cassette wheel
    (dirt cheap prebuilts available online). 4mm wider axle, but you should
    just be able to spring apart the rear drops when installing (or
    permenantly space them)


    Much to my embarassment, I don't know if it's indexed. I have the two
    standard levers on the down tube. Clearly the one on the left (chainring
    shifter) does not have detents because it's sensitive to position for
    proper shifting. Maybe it had detents once and they're worn. I *think*
    these are friction shifters because there is a tensioning screw which
    adjusts the tension / shift effort.

    I have a mtn bike which has shifters you just trigger to switch. I'm
    sure that's an index shifter. However, if there is a transitory version
    where one moves a lever sequentially like a fricition shifter, but it is
    an indexed one, well, that I don't know. I'd feel stupid walking into a
    bike shop asking these questions. I felt dopey enough when I got this
    bike and I needed all new cables. I had no idea the NAMES of the cables
    or what characteristics they needed. Then said it wasn't my bike
    (borrowed) & that created some tension until they understood I hadn't
    stolen it.

    I guess I'll take apart the rear wheel and answer some of these
    questions so I know enough to ask more intelligent/detailed questions. I
    had no idea things had changed so much.

    Thanks for your informative reply. -Paul

  7. Booker C. Bense said:


    _ Maybe you should get a new "expert". It's a fairly
    straightforward job to put new rims on old hubs. A well
    maintained hub should last many many miles and at least two or
    three rims. If you're happy with your current hubs and gears,
    just rebuild the wheels with new rims. You might or might not
    want to replace the spokes at the same time[1]. If you can find a
    rim that matches the ERD[2] of your old rim, there is no reason
    to replace the spokes if they are relatively modern stainless
    steel and aren't damaged.

    When he lent me the bike, he said the hubs were of very poor quality.
    The entire wheelset was put on there so the bike could be sold as a bike
    at the swap instead of a pile of parts. 'My' expert really is an expert
    having tried to make a living as a pro bike racer and supplemented that
    with being a bike wrench for many years until he recognized that this
    isn't a lifetime thing to do.

    Quoted message said:


    _ Harris cyclery sells a nice pair of older 7spd hubs and can
    easily built up a nice wheelset for you for just a little more
    than you'd pay for used stuff on ebay. Ebay is great for getting
    hard to find stuff, but it's not particularly cheap for the most
    part.

    _ Booker C. Bense

    [1]- If you have a shop do this, most places will require that
    you replace the spokes as well. I would too if I ran a shop since
    you can't really make any kind of guarantee of the work if you
    don't replace the spokes. However, putting a new rim on old
    spokes is a pretty good place to start with learning to build
    wheels. If you're at all handy with tools, wheelbuilding is
    very straightforward, just requires a bit of patience.

    [2]- http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm


    Thanks. I'll check the prices and see if a Harris supplied hubset is the
    better way to go. I used to lace up my own motorcycle wheels, but today
    lack a truing stand and also don't know if there is a lot to bicycle
    wheels that I don't know. I would not use these spokes anyway. I can't
    see new rims, new hubs and then these poor quality spokes and nipples.
    Poor economy that. Thanks for the links.

    -paul

  8. On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:18:06 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    maxo said:
    tsgtesting said:

    If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
    body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
    the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own. This will make
    the hub shorter, so:

    If it's an older (late eighties) 7spd cassette, and the rims are otherwise
    in decent shape, but you want to upgrade the rear sprockets, grab an Sram
    8spd cassette, break it apart (small set screw on back), and using the old
    spacers that are on your wheel (very important, the spacers size that is)
    create your own custom "cassette". The New sprocket widths differ ever so
    slightly from the old, but not enough for the index (or friction)
    shifting to be affected. You'll want to get a new chain if you do this.

    If it's a 7spd screw on freewheel, those are readily available, but the
    wheels you'll have to get built or buy on Fleabay.

    If it's a non-indexed system, I'd just get a modern 8spd cassette wheel
    (dirt cheap prebuilts available online). 4mm wider axle, but you should
    just be able to spring apart the rear drops when installing (or
    permenantly space them)

    There are zillions of very inexpensive, but of course dated 7 speed wheelsets on
    ebay. You should be outta there for about a hundred wth something perfectly
    rideable. Not fancy mind you but better than that stuff you got.

    Quoted message said:

    Much to my embarassment, I don't know if it's indexed. I have the two
    standard levers on the down tube. Clearly the one on the left (chainring
    shifter) does not have detents because it's sensitive to position for
    proper shifting. Maybe it had detents once and they're worn. I *think*
    these are friction shifters because there is a tensioning screw which
    adjusts the tension / shift effort.

    The left one will be friction only. The right one will either be friction or
    switchable from pure friction to a detent using the D-ring that looks like it
    would otherwise adjust tension.

    Ron

    Quoted message said:

    I have a mtn bike which has shifters you just trigger to switch. I'm
    sure that's an index shifter. However, if there is a transitory version
    where one moves a lever sequentially like a fricition shifter, but it is
    an indexed one, well, that I don't know. I'd feel stupid walking into a
    bike shop asking these questions. I felt dopey enough when I got this
    bike and I needed all new cables. I had no idea the NAMES of the cables
    or what characteristics they needed. Then said it wasn't my bike
    (borrowed) & that created some tension until they understood I hadn't
    stolen it.

    I guess I'll take apart the rear wheel and answer some of these
    questions so I know enough to ask more intelligent/detailed questions. I
    had no idea things had changed so much.

    Thanks for your informative reply. -Paul

  9. Paul Cassel said:
    Quoted message said:

    Paul Cassel wrote:



    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I'm content with the 7 speeds although I do need a different gear ratio
    set. I note from this chart that my job as far as the gearing is much
    easier than I anticipated because I can just swap my 23 sprocket for a
    28 which, I hope, will give me some reasonable gearing for where i live
    in the mtns. My chainrings are 45 and 52.

    Just watch the size of the gaps in tooth count between the cogs.

    Presumably your're running somthing like 12-23, the last step being
    21-23 or 20-23. If you make that 21-28 or 20-28, that's a real big
    jump. Rough on the chain and derailieur, really poor shifting (if
    it'll go at all). There's also a big gap in ratio from the 21 to the 28
    - I suspect you'll frequently find yourself in a situation where the
    45-28 is too low and the 45-21 too high.

    You could look at mix and matching the casettes to keep the biggest
    single jump down to 4 or or 5 teeth, but from what you say about the
    current wheelset (suspect rims, old/low quality hubs etc), I'd suspect
    that the rear cogs are carrying some significant wear. Look for an
    asymmetrical, "hooked" shape to the teeth, indicating significant wear.

    If this is the case, your current cassette is both worn and isn't
    giving you the range of gear ratios you want. I'd spring for a new
    cassette in the right range (about €30-€35 in this neck of the
    woods). For a new cassette, I'd get a new chain to match (€15 and up
    for somthing reasonable). You're on a budget of course, but a new
    cassette and chain can transform the shifting, esp. on an older bike.

    In any case, check the chain, cassette and chainrings for wear. Be a
    bit careful of a new chain on old cogs, or vice-versa - it may have a
    tendency to skip.

    Good luck,

    bookieb.

  10. Quoted message said:


    Just watch the size of the gaps in tooth count between the cogs.

    Presumably your're running somthing like 12-23, the last step being
    21-23 or 20-23. If you make that 21-28 or 20-28, that's a real big
    jump. Rough on the chain and derailieur, really poor shifting (if
    it'll go at all). There's also a big gap in ratio from the 21 to the 28
    - I suspect you'll frequently find yourself in a situation where the
    45-28 is too low and the 45-21 too high.

    Ah, so there is a gap issue too. I didn't know that. I have ordered the
    Brandt book from Amazon, but I don't know if it'll cover the cogset
    issues. I am running the 12-23, but I also learned I can get a smaller
    chainring. That will make a big difference.

    Quoted message said:


    You could look at mix and matching the casettes to keep the biggest
    single jump down to 4 or or 5 teeth, but from what you say about the
    current wheelset (suspect rims, old/low quality hubs etc), I'd suspect
    that the rear cogs are carrying some significant wear. Look for an
    asymmetrical, "hooked" shape to the teeth, indicating significant wear.

    If this is the case, your current cassette is both worn and isn't
    giving you the range of gear ratios you want. I'd spring for a new
    cassette in the right range (about €30-€35 in this neck of the
    woods). For a new cassette, I'd get a new chain to match (€15 and up
    for somthing reasonable). You're on a budget of course, but a new
    cassette and chain can transform the shifting, esp. on an older bike.

    In any case, check the chain, cassette and chainrings for wear. Be a
    bit careful of a new chain on old cogs, or vice-versa - it may have a
    tendency to skip.


    I do have some wear on my teeth not only some assemetry but also chips
    or chunks out of the teeth. I suppose that may have come from rocks or
    sand, but the problem seems to be on the trailing edges too. Clearly the
    chain can't have tolerated this without some adverse wear as well.

    Curiously, I"m not feeling very money restricted. I only do not wish to
    put silly money into a 'black hole' if this bike doesn't work out - but
    it does seem to be doing ok by me so far.

    When I came out of lurk on this ng, I was 90% convinced I had a bike
    which was hopelessly dated. Thus I needed to buy a new bike which I'd
    priced at anywhere from U$1k to U$2.5k. The experts here gave me enough
    good info that I think I'll stick to this setup for at least a bit
    longer thus I have some surplus money to throw at the current ride.

    Of course, now that I want to keep this bike, the fellow who owns it (he
    lent it to me) seems less than thrilled about selling it. I may end up
    with a long term lease of some sort. I'm ok putting money into the bike
    even on those terms because I get fair use so think me returning the
    bike better than I got it is appropriate.

    I have, for example, gotten it to work. When I got it, it had no cables
    and then would not shift in the rear outside of the middle three or four
    sprockets. The bike shifts "snick-snick" now almost instantly which I
    find enormously pleasing. There is no hunting or other delay on the
    shift. Move the lever, and without even a tiny wasted bit of pedal
    motion, I'm in the next gear.

    Being reassured by this group that I"m not riding a laughable POS has
    vastly increased my riding enjoyment. Mentals play a huge part in all of
    this.

    -paul

  11. RonSonic said:

    On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:18:06 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    There are zillions of very inexpensive, but of course dated 7 speed wheelsets on
    ebay. You should be outta there for about a hundred wth something perfectly
    rideable. Not fancy mind you but better than that stuff you got.


    I found one for sale on eBay now which seems suitable and worth playing
    with. It's from a fellow who strips framesets to make super single
    speeds. Adding Jobst's book to the mix, I should be able to mix and
    match myself up a good set of wheels which make a lot less noise. I
    don't have to warn folks I'm about to pass them as my bike makes a low
    siren song now at speeds greater than about 14 mph. Even people with
    headphones hear me coming.

    Quoted message said:

    The left one will be friction only. The right one will either be friction or
    switchable from pure friction to a detent using the D-ring that looks like it
    would otherwise adjust tension.


    Ha! You got this one nailed down and thanks. Yes, I did switch the right
    to detents and it works. The left is friction only, but I don't care. I
    have it adjusted so it engages at the ends of its throw. This is a very
    pleasing mechanical device employing a lot of subtle features.

  12. On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:57:20 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    RonSonic said:

    On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:18:06 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    There are zillions of very inexpensive, but of course dated 7 speed wheelsets on
    ebay. You should be outta there for about a hundred wth something perfectly
    rideable. Not fancy mind you but better than that stuff you got.


    I found one for sale on eBay now which seems suitable and worth playing
    with. It's from a fellow who strips framesets to make super single
    speeds. Adding Jobst's book to the mix, I should be able to mix and
    match myself up a good set of wheels which make a lot less noise. I
    don't have to warn folks I'm about to pass them as my bike makes a low
    siren song now at speeds greater than about 14 mph. Even people with
    headphones hear me coming.

    Quoted message said:

    The left one will be friction only. The right one will either be friction or
    switchable from pure friction to a detent using the D-ring that looks like it
    would otherwise adjust tension.


    Ha! You got this one nailed down and thanks. Yes, I did switch the right
    to detents and it works. The left is friction only, but I don't care. I
    have it adjusted so it engages at the ends of its throw. This is a very
    pleasing mechanical device employing a lot of subtle features.

    One of the things to love about bikes is just how elegant and well refined a
    relatively simple piece of machinery can become. Firearms and tube audio are
    the only other things that can compare.

    Ron

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.