West Nile Virus & bicycle messengers

Leo Lichtman Declared:

Quoted message said:

Tonight's news carried a story about a neat attack on the mosquitoes that
carry the West Nile virus. Bicycle messengers in San Francisco have been
hired to ride around the city and drop mosquito toxins into the sewers,
through manhole covers. The poison kills mosquitoes, but is said to be
harmless to humans. They spray paint the manhole to mark the fact that it
has been treated. They also use GPS locators and cell phone links so the
information is recorded on a central map.

I'm not too surprised, though it is a novel approach.

Most storm drains have some standing water, but IIRC, in SF they have
large tanks of water to be available in case of earthquake & fire (the
water can be used in the event water mains are broken). This means
that rather than having many gallons of stagnant, mosquito-breeding
water at every storm drain, they have *thousands* of gallons of
stagnant, mosquito-breeding water at every storm drain.

Austin (currently living in Minnesota, where the unofficial state bird
is the bloodsucking mosquito)

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tonight's news carried a story about a neat attack on the mosquitoes that
carry the West Nile virus. Bicycle messengers in San Francisco have been
hired to ride around the city and drop mosquito toxins into the sewers,
through manhole covers. The poison kills mosquitoes, but is said to be
harmless to humans. They spray paint the manhole to mark the fact that it
has been treated. They also use GPS locators and cell phone links so the
information is recorded on a central map.

Poison that is harmless. Yeah right. All this hysteria and energy being
spent here in CA for something that is not nearly as dangerous as many, many
other things, exposure to pesticides and industrial toxins for one. Have
there been anywhere near as many deaths from West Nile Virus as the 44,000
people killed in automobile crashes this year? How about the 90,000+ people
killed by unnecessary medical interventions? How about the 2,000 people
killed in our shameful war? How about the people who died homeless on the
streets? It's not like there could be any discernable trace of the
epidemic levels of autopsy in our children and cancer in everybody to the
100,000 new chemicals developed each and every year. No, what we need is a
good dose of reactionary hysteria and of course more poison dispersed about
town.

Fred said:

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tonight's news carried a story about a neat attack on the mosquitoes that
carry the West Nile virus. Bicycle messengers in San Francisco have been
hired to ride around the city and drop mosquito toxins into the sewers,
through manhole covers. The poison kills mosquitoes, but is said to be
harmless to humans. They spray paint the manhole to mark the fact that it
has been treated. They also use GPS locators and cell phone links so the
information is recorded on a central map.

Poison that is harmless. Yeah right. All this hysteria and energy being
spent here in CA for something that is not nearly as dangerous as many, many
other things, exposure to pesticides and industrial toxins for one. Have
there been anywhere near as many deaths from West Nile Virus as the 44,000
people killed in automobile crashes this year? ... No, what we need is a
good dose of reactionary hysteria and of course more poison dispersed about
town.

Does Ortho make an automobile crash spray?

Fred said:

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tonight's news carried a story about a neat attack on the mosquitoes that
carry the West Nile virus. Bicycle messengers in San Francisco have been
hired to ride around the city and drop mosquito toxins into the sewers,
through manhole covers. The poison kills mosquitoes, but is said to be
harmless to humans. They spray paint the manhole to mark the fact that it
has been treated. They also use GPS locators and cell phone links so the
information is recorded on a central map.

Poison that is harmless. Yeah right.

I bet it is the mosquito larva specific strain of BT (Bacillus
thuringiensis israelensis) or Bacillus sphaericus. These are bacteria
that bind to specific receptors in the gut of specific insect hosts;
the disruption leads to death of certain species if ingested early
enough in the larval cycle. These bacteria are naturally occurring in
the soil and have, for a number of reasons, no effect on mammals,
including humans. Various forms of BT are used as an organic control
of crop pests; if you eat organic food you have most certainly been
exposed to some form of BT.

Quoted message said:

All this hysteria and energy being
spent here in CA for something that is not nearly as dangerous as many, many
other things, exposure to pesticides and industrial toxins for one. Have
there been anywhere near as many deaths from West Nile Virus as the 44,000
people killed in automobile crashes this year? How about the 90,000+ people
killed by unnecessary medical interventions? How about the 2,000 people
killed in our shameful war? How about the people who died homeless on the
streets? It's not like there could be any discernable trace of the
epidemic levels of autopsy in our children and cancer in everybody to the
100,000 new chemicals developed each and every year. No, what we need is a
good dose of reactionary hysteria and of course more poison dispersed about
town.

I agree that this is over-hyped. I like the comments yesterday from a
Santa Clara County health official; to paraphrase they said West Nile
is a fact of life, it is of little consequence to most folks, get used
to it. I was extremely annoyed that Santa Clara County vector control
used the hysteria to get taxpayers to approve a parcel tax this spring.
Yes it will kill a few folks, but not as many as a lot of other
causes.

- rick

Rick said:

Fred said:

Poison that is harmless. Yeah right.

I bet it is the mosquito larva specific strain of BT (Bacillus
thuringiensis israelensis) or Bacillus sphaericus.

They appear to be using methoprene:
http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/methopre.htm

"Fred" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Poison that is harmless. Yeah right. All this hysteria and energy
being spent here in CA for something that is not nearly as dangerous
as many, many other things, exposure to pesticides and industrial
toxins for one. Have there been anywhere near as many deaths from
West Nile Virus as the 44,000 people killed in automobile crashes this
year?

Go tell that to the mother in Stockton whose 2-year old child just came
down with a case of WNV.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/kcra/20050817/lo_kcra/2887296

"PanFan" wrote: (clip) All this hysteria and energy being spent here in CA
for something that is not nearly as dangerous as many, many other things
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If we carry your objection to its logical conclusion, we wind up putting all
our resources into the world's single worst problem, ignoring all others.
What would that be? Hunger, genocide, disease, war, crime, pollution,
resource depletion, population explosion, terrorism? How to decide? And if
we could decide, how to funnel all the world's resources effectively into
that one monumental cause? Ain't possible.

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"PanFan" wrote: (clip) All this hysteria and energy being spent here in
CA for something that is not nearly as dangerous as many, many other
things (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If we carry your objection to its logical conclusion, we wind up putting
all our resources into the world's single worst problem, ignoring all
others. What would that be? Hunger, genocide, disease, war, crime,
pollution, resource depletion, population explosion, terrorism? How to
decide? And if we could decide, how to funnel all the world's resources
effectively into that one monumental cause? Ain't possible.

No, the logical conclusion would be putting appropriate resources to the
problems. Putting band-aids on your paper-cuts while the house is burning
is not logical, nor practical. It's not even like putting band-aids on
because the so-called cure is not only ineffective it is detrimental. In
the case of the mosquitoes, the article I read said that intensive spraying
won't even reach 10% of the mosquito population.

"PanFan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Fred" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Poison that is harmless. Yeah right. All this hysteria and energy
being spent here in CA for something that is not nearly as dangerous
as many, many other things, exposure to pesticides and industrial
toxins for one. Have there been anywhere near as many deaths from
West Nile Virus as the 44,000 people killed in automobile crashes this
year?

Go tell that to the mother in Stockton whose 2-year old child just came
down with a case of WNV.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/kcra/20050817/lo_kcra/2887296

My heart goes out to her. That doesn't mean that dumping pesticides into
the environment is helping her nor anybody else. Dumping pesticide,
especially aerial spraying is reckless, it's just sick.

PanFan said:

"Fred" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Poison that is harmless. Yeah right. All this hysteria and energy
being spent here in CA for something that is not nearly as dangerous
as many, many other things, exposure to pesticides and industrial
toxins for one. Have there been anywhere near as many deaths from
West Nile Virus as the 44,000 people killed in automobile crashes this
year?

Go tell that to the mother in Stockton whose 2-year old child just came
down with a case of WNV.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/kcra/20050817/lo_kcra/2887296

We can have compassion and sympathy for those affected, but still be
opposed to incorrect solutions to dealing with the problem. The US
waged a campaign against mosquitoes through the 40's, 50's, 60's using
dangerous poisons that in the end caused far more harm than the
mosquitoes killed by the poisons ever wrought. We learned from those
mistakes, to a degree, and the measures being taken now are using much
less toxic agents. The methoprene reportedly used in SF has a very low
toxicity to anything but mosquitoes, and can be quite effective under
certain conditions. The pyrethrin being sprayed in Sacramento area and
environs is much less effective, kills a broader spectrum of life
forms, and is probably a bad choice. IMO bad choices being made for a
noble cause are still bad choices; if I were the mother of this child I
would want the methods best able to control the situation to be used,
not the shotgun approach.

All that said, we can try to control the mosquito population but the
reality is that WNV is now a fact of life. It is here, will stay here,
and the only long term ways of living with it will be to either develop
a vaccine or to develop natural immunity in the population. And the
only way to develop natural immunity is exposure. With the disease
being a part of our environment now, we will have to live with the
notion that some will get sick, some will have a worse reaction than
others, and some folks will die. Absent a magic bullet solution, this
happens when any virulent pathogen is introduced into a population.

For the record I have had my bout with a near-death due to a disease
with a mosquito vector. I had Vivax malaria at one time, with fevers
peaking over 106 degrees F, rapid loss of weight, and a precipitously
low RBC count by the time it was diagnosed and treated. Did not make
me want to go out and indiscriminately poison the world to kill off the
offending mosquitoes; rather I became an advocate for better training
of doctors, as the major cause of the disease getting so bad in my
case, and the leading contributing factor for death due to malaria at
that time, was inability of doctors to properly diagnose. I think in a
couple of years or so we will see similar results with WNV; the folks
in the at-risk demographics who contract and survive will probably be
able to thank the doctors who quickly diagnosed and reacted. And
failure of doctors to make a quick diagnosis will be a major
contributing factors in many of the deaths.

- rick

"Rick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
:
: PanFan wrote:
: > "Fred" <[email hidden]> wrote in
: > news:[email hidden]:
: > Go tell that to the mother in Stockton whose 2-year old child just came
: > down with a case of WNV.
: >
: > http://news.yahoo.com/s/kcra/20050817/lo_kcra/2887296
:
: For the record I have had my bout with a near-death due to a disease
: with a mosquito vector. I had Vivax malaria at one time, with fevers
: peaking over 106 degrees F, rapid loss of weight, and a precipitously
: low RBC count by the time it was diagnosed and treated. Did not make
: me want to go out and indiscriminately poison the world to kill off the
: offending mosquitoes; rather I became an advocate for better training
: of doctors, as the major cause of the disease getting so bad in my
: case, and the leading contributing factor for death due to malaria at
: that time, was inability of doctors to properly diagnose. I think in a
: couple of years or so we will see similar results with WNV; the folks
: in the at-risk demographics who contract and survive will probably be
: able to thank the doctors who quickly diagnosed and reacted. And
: failure of doctors to make a quick diagnosis will be a major
: contributing factors in many of the deaths.
:
: - rick

I had West Nile Virus a couple years back. It kicked my ass for about a
week. I'm fine now. I am sure the 2-year old in Stockton will be fine too.
The 75 and 80 year olds weren't hospitalized -- how serious can it be?

I have to agree with Rick that killing everything with 6 legs probably won't
solve the problem. When I was a kid, they'd spray the trees with DDT (now
called Deet). We still had mosquitoes and if West Nile had been around,
they'd still have spread the virus. Spraying won't solve the problem -- it
is just another knee-jerk over reaction.

Quoted message said:

When I was a kid, they'd spray the trees with DDT (now
called Deet).

DDT (dichloro-diphenyl-trichloroethane) is a very different chemical
from DEET (N,N-diethyl-m-toluamide). DDT was an insecticide whereas
DEET is a repellant - it helps keep the mosquitos from biting but it
doesn't kill them.

SDB said:

I have to agree with Rick that killing everything with 6 legs probably won't
solve the problem. When I was a kid, they'd spray the trees with DDT (now
called Deet).

Mosquito control was based on Malathion. And Deet is a completely
different product than DDT.

The spraying does have an effect. It isn't perfect, but it helps.

"Fred" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

My heart goes out to her. That doesn't mean that dumping pesticides
into the environment is helping her nor anybody else. Dumping
pesticide, especially aerial spraying is reckless, it's just sick.

I respect your opinion. I just disagree with the "anti all pesticides all
the time" crowd. The fallacy of their argument is they believe all toxins
are harmful at all concentrations and dilutions. This is just false, and
it's contrary to reality-based science and medicine.

Everything is a toxin if you consume enough of it. Every toxin is safe if
the dose is small enough.

Pyrethrin is used in lice shampoo, flea collars, and is sold as an 'organic
pesticide.' The stuff's been used in homes for so many years that if there
was a toxicity problem it would have shown up by now. When sprayed from the
air it's in much smaller doses than what you'd encounter from Fido running
around with a flea collar.

Anyway, the risks from aerial pyrethrin is so microscopic that it's the
right thing to do to prevent the 200 deaths a year you'd have in California
if WNV was left unchecked.

Rick said:

We can have compassion and sympathy for those affected, but still be
opposed to incorrect solutions to dealing with the problem. The US
waged a campaign against mosquitoes through the 40's, 50's, 60's using
dangerous poisons that in the end caused far more harm than the
mosquitoes killed by the poisons ever wrought.

You should find out how many people have died because of mosquito-borne
malaria since places like India and Bangladesh have not been able to buy DDT
from the US. Hint: It makes the Holocaust look like child's play.

Austin

AustinMN said:

You should find out how many people have died because of mosquito-borne
malaria since places like India and Bangladesh have not been able to
buy DDT from the US.

Okay, I'll bite: how many people have died in places like India and
Bangladesh because of malaria since they haven't been able to buy DDT from
the US?

Also: the storm drains in SF are not fire-fighting cisterns.

Robert Chung said:

AustinMN said:

You should find out how many people have died because of mosquito-borne
malaria since places like India and Bangladesh have not been able to
buy DDT from the US.

Okay, I'll bite: how many people have died in places like India and
Bangladesh because of malaria since they haven't been able to buy DDT from
the US?

Actually I think the ban covers more than the USA. However here's
something in the current impac:
http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/impact/index.htm

Quoted message said:

Also: the storm drains in SF are not fire-fighting cisterns.

"SMS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

SDB said:

I have to agree with Rick that killing everything with 6 legs probably
won't
solve the problem. When I was a kid, they'd spray the trees with DDT
(now
called Deet).

Mosquito control was based on Malathion. And Deet is a completely
different product than DDT.

The spraying does have an effect. It isn't perfect, but it helps.

The effect is a lot of poison in the environment and very little mosquito
abatement.

John_Kane said:

Robert Chung said:

Okay, I'll bite: how many people have died in places like India and
Bangladesh because of malaria since they haven't been able to buy DDT
from the US?

Actually I think the ban covers more than the USA.

You're saying places like India and Bangladesh are banned from buying DDT
anywhere in the world?

Quoted message said:

However here's
something in the current impac:
http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/impact/index.htm

I'm familiar with cause of death estimates and the magnitude of the
malaria problem. I was asking how many of those deaths were due to the
countries being unable to purchase DDT from the US.