Zipp 404 tubular or clincher?

If I were to purchase some 404's I would get the tubular model and I would only use them in races.

But if you plan not to race on your Zipp's then clinchers would be a better choice because flats are easier to fix and clinchers are a lot cheaper.

Cyclist14 said:

If I were to purchase some 404's I would get the tubular model and I would only use them in races.

WHAT'S THE LOGIC BEHIND THE TUBULARS ONLY IN RACES? IS IT THE WEIGHT FACTOR? OR THE COMFORT OF HAVING A TEAM CAR WITH 404 SPARES 😄 .

But if you plan not to race on your Zipp's then clinchers would be a better choice because flats are easier to fix and clinchers are a lot cheaper.

THESE IS WHAT KIND OF WORRIES ME. HAVING A FLAT ON THE ROAD. FIXING A FLAT ON A CLINCHER IS PRETTY EASY. THOUGH I HAVE COME ACROSS SOME THREADS THAT THOSE TUBULAR GUYS CAN FIX THEIR IN ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS THE CLINCHERS IF NOT A BIT FASTER.

If i do decide on the tubular, what other items on the bike do i have to change? do you guys change your brake pads?

If i do decide on the tubular, what other items on the bike do i have to change? do you guys change your brake pads?

pinoybiker said:

If i do decide on the tubular, what other items on the bike do i have to change? do you guys change your brake pads?

personally,the turbulars feels great compared with the clincers. And like what Cyclist14 said, I also use them for competitions and races only.

the troublesome parts are to change the brake pads whenever you wanna switch from your training wheels to ur racing ones, and you also got to inflate the tire once every few days because they tend to leak a lot.🙂

go clincher.

1. you have no experience with tubulars
2. clincher flat will cost you $5, tubular flat will cost you $65 or more
3. you have no experience with tubulars
4. good clincher tires provide as good a ride quality as tubulars
5. you have no experience with tubulars

do some research on what it takes to properly mount a tubular tire...stretching, several layers of glue, and consequently several days time, the mess,... yes, there is a certain mystique associated with tubulars, but there's also a lot of expense, trouble, and mess.

I bought a set of 404's off of ebay last fall, a present to myself, and they were (relatively) inexpensive, as it was an off season purchase.

I love the Zipps. Thought I'd buy that set last fall, and if I didn't like them I could always sell them in the spring at a minor profit, but I can't take them off. They are noticably faster on downhills than the other aero wheelset I have (Rolf Vector Pro), noticably lighter, and they definitely ride smoother than the low spoke/high tension wheels like the Rolf, Kysrium, Shimano 540, etc... I have noticed one other advantage of the Zipps - they can intimidate other riders. When I'm out riding with my usual group, they seem to [censored] out quicker on long hillclimbs, and then whine about my fancy wheels. Truth is, the 404's don't climb any better than other wheelsets. Those guys are psyching themselves out.

If you get the tubular 404's, you do need to change brake pads. Get the Zipp pads, they don't cost much more. The clinchers have an aluminum braking surface.

Can't directly compare clincher and tubular, because I never rode the clinchers. I bought my Zipps in tubular. It didn't make much sense to me to shell out all that money for uber-light wheels, and then pile on a chunk of aluminum for convenience's sake. These are my weekened hotrod wheels. I keep a set of Campy Zondas in clincher for other riding.

Keep in mind that the Zipps are a bit fragile, as befits any wheelset that places that much emphasis on weight. I don't ride mine in town or over railroad tracks. These aren't an ordinary set of inexpensive stock wheels, you will need to respect their limitations, and you don't want to ride them in places where you might take a serious hit. Also, carry them in padded bags

Tubular tires? Plenty of varieties available: Conti, Tufo, Veloflex, Vittoria, and I think Hutchinson still makes them, too. Right now, I'm gliding around on a set of pricey ($90 each!) but oh so light and comfortable Andre Dugast cotton tubulars. Generally speaking, good tubulars will sell in the $50-60 range, with the really good ones up in the $70-85 range, which is not far off what the good to excellent clinchers sell for. Some tubulars like the Dugies, come with latex inner tubes that lose pressure after a couple of days. Some like the Contis have vulcanized inner tubes that don't.

IMHO, far too much is made out of tubular tire difficulties. Yes, they are more work than a clincher, when work needs to be done. My experience is that work doesn't have to be done very often. I rode my Zipps all last fall and this spring on a tired set of Conti Sprinters that were on the wheels when I bought them. My feeling was - I'm not getting these wheels to ride every day. I'm getting them to go out and haul ass. For that, I'm willing to put up with a bit more work.

Besides, if you haven't changed and patched a tubular, you just haven't lived the real cycling experience. It's a rite of passage for anyone serious about riding.

I would agree about getting tubs- nothing beats them as a good set of wheels. As far as fixing them to the rims I never seem to see anyone mention tub tape- extremely sticky double sided tape used to obviously stick tyre to rim. Used the glue in the 80's but with the tape most of the hassle is removed. If using carbon rims you have to lightly sand the rim surface, but this causes no harm. Having punctured going down hill at 40+mph had no problems despite it being the front wheel (well only brown shorts!). Yes, they are more expensive, but you can knacker a clincher that costs just as much. It is only money after all...One word of caution- don't try to ride too far if you have a flat and no spare- it totally screws the rim. Aluminium can always be hammered out a bit but carbon gets totally ripped, as a friend of mine did recently after puncturing in a time trial. Now that was expensive.

GOOD DAY TO ALL AND THANKS FOR THE REPLIES.

korbu said:

personally,the turbulars feels great compared with the clincers. And like what Cyclist14 said, I also use them for competitions and races only.

the troublesome parts are to change the brake pads whenever you wanna switch from your training wheels to ur racing ones, and you also got to inflate the tire once every few days because they tend to leak a lot.🙂

OKAY I CAN LIVE WITH THAT TROUBLESOME PART OF CHANGING THE BRAKE PADS. MY KSYRIUM'S WITH MICHELIN PRO RACE TIRES NEEDS INFLATING TOO AND IT LOSES ABT 10 PSI PER DAY. THE MAXXIS IM USING NEEDS NO REINFLATING AT ALL.

rv said:

do some research on what it takes to properly mount a tubular tire...stretching, several layers of glue, and consequently several days time, the mess,... yes, there is a certain mystique associated with tubulars, but there's also a lot of expense, trouble, and mess.

I FINALLY WAS ABLE TO SEARCH THE WEB AND GOT MOST OF THE INFORMATIONS I WANTED. THE LINKS ARE AS BELOW:

tufonorthamerica.comtufonorthamerica.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗
freewheel.comfreewheel.comOpen ↗
yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗

SOMEHOW I HAVE GOT AN IDEA ON HOW DIFFICULT IT WILL BE FOR A NEWBIE ON TUBULARS TO INSTALL/REPAIR ONE. BUT CONSIDERING THE INFORMATION THAT I HAVE READ FROM THE VARIOUS THREADS, THE TUBULAR USERS SELDOM ENCOUNTER FLATS AND THE NEED TO REPAIR ONE IS THEN VERY SELDOM. SOMEHOW THIS OFFSETS THE DIFFICULTY OF CHANGING ONE AS THE CASE IS RARE. SAY IF I NEED TO CHANGE MY CLINCHERS 3X A YEAR DUE TO FLATS AND A TUBULAR 1X IN 2 YEARS THEN I WOULD RATHER GO FOR THE TUBULARS.

JohnO said:

I love the Zipps. Thought I'd buy that set last fall, and if I didn't like them I could always sell them in the spring at a minor profit, but I can't take them off. They are noticably faster on downhills than the other aero wheelset I have (Rolf Vector Pro), noticably lighter, and they definitely ride smoother than the low spoke/high tension wheels like the Rolf, Kysrium, Shimano 540, etc... I have noticed one other advantage of the Zipps - they can intimidate other riders. When I'm out riding with my usual group, they seem to [censored] out quicker on long hillclimbs, and then whine about my fancy wheels. Truth is, the 404's don't climb any better than other wheelsets. Those guys are psyching themselves out.

If you get the tubular 404's, you do need to change brake pads. Get the Zipp pads, they don't cost much more. The clinchers have an aluminum braking surface.

Can't directly compare clincher and tubular, because I never rode the clinchers. I bought my Zipps in tubular. It didn't make much sense to me to shell out all that money for uber-light wheels, and then pile on a chunk of aluminum for convenience's sake. These are my weekened hotrod wheels. I keep a set of Campy Zondas in clincher for other riding.

Keep in mind that the Zipps are a bit fragile, as befits any wheelset that places that much emphasis on weight. I don't ride mine in town or over railroad tracks. These aren't an ordinary set of inexpensive stock wheels, you will need to respect their limitations, and you don't want to ride them in places where you might take a serious hit. Also, carry them in padded bags

Tubular tires? Plenty of varieties available: Conti, Tufo, Veloflex, Vittoria, and I think Hutchinson still makes them, too. Right now, I'm gliding around on a set of pricey ($90 each!) but oh so light and comfortable Andre Dugast cotton tubulars. Generally speaking, good tubulars will sell in the $50-60 range, with the really good ones up in the $70-85 range, which is not far off what the good to excellent clinchers sell for. Some tubulars like the Dugies, come with latex inner tubes that lose pressure after a couple of days. Some like the Contis have vulcanized inner tubes that don't.

IMHO, far too much is made out of tubular tire difficulties. Yes, they are more work than a clincher, when work needs to be done. My experience is that work doesn't have to be done very often. I rode my Zipps all last fall and this spring on a tired set of Conti Sprinters that were on the wheels when I bought them. My feeling was - I'm not getting these wheels to ride every day. I'm getting them to go out and haul ass. For that, I'm willing to put up with a bit more work.

Besides, if you haven't changed and patched a tubular, you just haven't lived the real cycling experience. It's a rite of passage for anyone serious about riding.

I THINK YOU HAVE CONVINCED ME TO GO FOR THE TUBULARS. I REALLY DONT MIND THE HAZZLE AND DIFFICULTIES THAT GOES WITH HAVING A TUBULAR IN CASE YOU NEED TO REPAIR OR CHANGE IT. I HAVE BEEN TO LOTS OF DIFFICULTIES IN LIFE INCLUDING GETTING A DECENT ROAD BIKE😄 . THE PROS FAR EXCEEDS THE CONS. THE HARD THING THAT I WILL FACE THOUGH IS ON GETTING A BETTER TUBULAR.

BTW HOW OFTEN (MILEAGE) DO YOU CHANGE YOUR TUBULARS? HOW LONG (MILEAGE) DOES A TUBULAR LAST?

mark higgins said:

I would agree about getting tubs- nothing beats them as a good set of wheels. As far as fixing them to the rims I never seem to see anyone mention tub tape- extremely sticky double sided tape used to obviously stick tyre to rim. Used the glue in the 80's but with the tape most of the hassle is removed. If using carbon rims you have to lightly sand the rim surface, but this causes no harm. Having punctured going down hill at 40+mph had no problems despite it being the front wheel (well only brown shorts!). Yes, they are more expensive, but you can knacker a clincher that costs just as much. It is only money after all...One word of caution- don't try to ride too far if you have a flat and no spare- it totally screws the rim. Aluminium can always be hammered out a bit but carbon gets totally ripped, as a friend of mine did recently after puncturing in a time trial. Now that was expensive.

ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE LIKES OF THE TUFO ACTIVATED TIRE GLUING TAPE? IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS MUCH EASIER TO USE THAN THE GLUES.

pinoybiker said:

...SAY IF I NEED TO CHANGE MY CLINCHERS 3X A YEAR DUE TO FLATS AND A TUBULAR 1X IN 2 YEARS THEN I WOULD RATHER GO FOR THE TUBULARS.

Bisdak - that's from Southern Philippines, isn't it? There are 2 things with a flat on a tubular - (1) changing the tubular & (2) fixing the flat.
(1) - When you ride, carry a spare tubular folded up in your pocket or strapped under your seat. Changing it out is simply rolling the flatted tubular off the rim and stretching and rolling the replacement on. I have always used glue, so have no experience of the tape, but it's very easy, fast and no tools are required (I also have no experience of 404's, but assume they are the same as other tubular rims with regard to outer profile).
(2) - Fixing the flat is, as previously stated, a right of passage. The kind of thing you do whilst sitting in front of the fireplace, smoking a pipe. You have to take off the protecting tape in the area that the puncture is and undo the stitching for a few inches. Pull the tube out and patch as normal. Stitch it back up without stabbing the tube with the needle. It's kind of like brain surgery, but you don't need a ticket to be allowed to do it. General edicts state that you use repaired tubulars for training only. When I was racing, I was a cheap [censored], so repaired tubulars were often the only ones I had - no problemo.
If things are different nowadays, I'm sure someone will correct me...Ay maligaya, kaibigan.

EoinC said:

Bisdak - that's from Southern Philippines, isn't it? There are 2 things with a flat on a tubular - (1) changing the tubular & (2) fixing the flat.
(1) - When you ride, carry a spare tubular folded up in your pocket or strapped under your seat. Changing it out is simply rolling the flatted tubular off the rim and stretching and rolling the replacement on. I have always used glue, so have no experience of the tape, but it's very easy, fast and no tools are required (I also have no experience of 404's, but assume they are the same as other tubular rims with regard to outer profile).
(2) - Fixing the flat is, as previously stated, a right of passage. The kind of thing you do whilst sitting in front of the fireplace, smoking a pipe. You have to take off the protecting tape in the area that the puncture is and undo the stitching for a few inches. Pull the tube out and patch as normal. Stitch it back up without stabbing the tube with the needle. It's kind of like brain surgery, but you don't need a ticket to be allowed to do it. General edicts state that you use repaired tubulars for training only. When I was racing, I was a cheap [censored], so repaired tubulars were often the only ones I had - no problemo.
If things are different nowadays, I'm sure someone will correct me...Ay maligaya, kaibigan.

Hi! Nope it's particularly not. It's BISayang DAKo actually.
Thanks for sharing yours. Although its kind of difficult to find a good tubular here. Something like passing on the eye of the needle, but i will get it somehow and am prepared to learn the angst and pain of putting on tubulars.😉
Good for you sitting on a fireplace mending you tubs. i'll definitely be a barbecue if we have one of those here. Mainit dito pards abot 32 deg C.

pinoybiker said:

Hi! Nope it's particularly not. It's BISayang DAKo actually.
Thanks for sharing yours. Although its kind of difficult to find a good tubular here. Something like passing on the eye of the needle, but i will get it somehow and am prepared to learn the angst and pain of putting on tubulars.😉
Good for you sitting on a fireplace mending you tubs. i'll definitely be a barbecue if we have one of those here. Mainit dito pards abot 32 deg C.

Pinoybiker, putting tub's on and taking them off is very easy. Just tear the buggered one off and roll the good one on. Inflate a little and ensure that it's centred all the way around the rim, then inflate fully. Even more straightforward than clinchers. The only fiddly bit is if you want to repair them (and given their scarcity over there, you probably do). When you get the rims, buy (3x) tub's, then you'll still be able to ride if you puncture. When you get home, do the repair (it's not really a roadside job).

pinoybiker said:

ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE LIKES OF THE TUFO ACTIVATED TIRE GLUING TAPE? IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS MUCH EASIER TO USE THAN THE GLUES.

No, I am referring to tape to adhere the tyre to the rim such as Velox tub tape(may be a European/UK thing). Could be the same thing however. Haven't used Tufos(yet) but have tried all the major Euro players for 20 years+, and tape is HUGELY easier than cement( as we call it in Blighty).

mark higgins said:

No, I am referring to tape to adhere the tyre to the rim such as Velox tub tape(may be a European/UK thing). Could be the same thing however. Haven't used Tufos(yet) but have tried all the major Euro players for 20 years+, and tape is HUGELY easier than cement( as we call it in Blighty).

I think their tapes are usuable only on their tubs.
The more i learn about tubulars in this forum the more confident i feel that it is not a hard thing after all.
You have a good day there and safe riding.

I would like to get Zipp 404s built on a Powertap SL hub. But I'm waiting for Powertap to improve their model in late 2006 when they will have multiple workout file capability and coded HRM. And I would use these wheels on regular city streets too!

I know I'd have to be very careful for potholes. I saw a sale of damaged Zipps on ebay - rim was damaged by a pothole.

Not to sound obtuse or anything, but... why would you put a training hub on race wheels? If you're training, the efficiency of the wheels won't matter. And if you're racing, the last thing you want is a heavy, electronics laden hub. Extra weight, and more things to go wrong, to get data you can't possibly process during a race.

You'll quit riding a lightweight wheel like the 404 in town, before or after you've smashed a $500 rim. Before is better. Keep in mind the greatest advantage of these wheels is high speed flats or descents. Try to make regular use of that high speed in town, and you will probably end up eating a car door or a fender.

JTE83 said:

I would like to get Zipp 404s built on a Powertap SL hub. But I'm waiting for Powertap to improve their model in late 2006 when they will have multiple workout file capability and coded HRM. And I would use these wheels on regular city streets too!

I know I'd have to be very careful for potholes. I saw a sale of damaged Zipps on ebay - rim was damaged by a pothole.

JohnO said:

Not to sound obtuse or anything, but... why would you put a training hub on race wheels? If you're training, the efficiency of the wheels won't matter. And if you're racing, the last thing you want is a heavy, electronics laden hub. Extra weight, and more things to go wrong, to get data you can't possibly process during a race.

You'll quit riding a lightweight wheel like the 404 in town, before or after you've smashed a $500 rim. Before is better. Keep in mind the greatest advantage of these wheels is high speed flats or descents. Try to make regular use of that high speed in town, and you will probably end up eating a car door or a fender.

Well, Floyd Landis did this year's TDF on a PowerTap SL (Zipp?) wheel. And hub weight isn't that bad. The reason I want a Powertap is it's 1 sec recording capability. I currently use 2 Polar Power Output kits and they're just adequate with their 5 sec recording capability. If I can't use Zipp 404 tubulars anywhere (race, training, or regular street use) then I just won't get them anymore and I'll just stick to my current sets of wheels (Ksyrium SL, Eurus, R535). I'm not interested in Zipp 404 clinchers. I like training at higher speeds cuz the wind cools you down better.

If I bike high speed in town I take the whole car lane and I bike past the range of opening doors. If I bike within door range I take it easy ~ 18 mph. Yes, I've been doored twice.

I was unhappy with my last race - my polar power output kit went unaligned and didn't record my power during the race. I'm not a serious racer though - I mainly bike to lose / maintain my weight and for fitness and transportation. But I do like nice gear though. Zipp 404's would really make my Cervelo Soloist Team "Team CSC Authentic."