Rita evacuation

Will said:

Got that... 48 miles in 13 hours on the interstate. People are
pushing cars.
You can walk out faster...

Sure! They can walk at a faster rate for a while but how many folks do
you think can cover 48 miles in 13 hours? This is an evacuation, so if
you don't cover the entire distance needed to get somewhere safe you
haven't accomplished much. Do you really thin that walking is the
preferred mode?

gds said:

Will said:

Got that... 48 miles in 13 hours on the interstate. People are
pushing cars.
You can walk out faster...

Sure! They can walk at a faster rate for a while but how many folks do
you think can cover 48 miles in 13 hours? This is an evacuation, so if
you don't cover the entire distance needed to get somewhere safe you
haven't accomplished much.

I'm I'm guessing they're also hauling a bunch of stuff with them as well.

Quoted message said:

I'm I'm guessing they're also hauling a bunch of stuff with them as well..

Ride out. Clothes, rain gear, cash, a gun (for zombies), your PC hard
drive backed up on DVD-R, a tent, water purification, phone cards, a
radio, sunblock, LED shake flashlights, your iPod, a little laundry
detergent, insurance contacts, twine/wire/duct tape/tools... If you
have pets or infants, get a trailer.

Lock up everything valuable in your house inside a secure safe room,
inside those new giant Ziplock bags. FedEx your jewelry and hard drive
overnight to a family member. Read through your insurance docs, kiss
your house goodbye and look forward to that new kitchen you've always
wanted.

Now - take a vacation!

gds said:

Will said:

Got that... 48 miles in 13 hours on the interstate. People are
pushing cars.
You can walk out faster...

Sure! They can walk at a faster rate for a while but how many folks do
you think can cover 48 miles in 13 hours? This is an evacuation, so if
you don't cover the entire distance needed to get somewhere safe you
haven't accomplished much. Do you really thin that walking is the
preferred mode?

My point is the car evacuation method is lousy. Doesn't it seem broken
to you? These people aren't escaping. They are pushing their 2500 pound
cars down a million dollar per mile road.

bryanska said:

Quoted message said:

I'm I'm guessing they're also hauling a bunch of stuff with them as well..

Ride out. Clothes, rain gear, cash, a gun (for zombies), your PC hard
drive backed up on DVD-R, a tent, water purification, phone cards, a
radio, sunblock, LED shake flashlights, your iPod, a little laundry
detergent, insurance contacts, twine/wire/duct tape/tools... If you
have pets or infants, get a trailer.

I didn't see any mutant repellent on that last. And you call yourself
prepared.

😉

--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"Ride a bike, ride a bike, ride a bike."
- Fausto Coppi

Will said:

gds said:

Will said:

Got that... 48 miles in 13 hours on the interstate. People are
pushing cars.
You can walk out faster...

Sure! They can walk at a faster rate for a while but how many folks do
you think can cover 48 miles in 13 hours? This is an evacuation, so if
you don't cover the entire distance needed to get somewhere safe you
haven't accomplished much. Do you really thin that walking is the
preferred mode?

My point is the car evacuation method is lousy. Doesn't it seem broken
to you? These people aren't escaping. They are pushing their 2500 pound
cars down a million dollar per mile road.

Exactly.

There is NO evacuation plan when the roads become grid locked.

Will said:

My point is the car evacuation method is lousy. Doesn't it seem broken
to you? These people aren't escaping. They are pushing their 2500 pound
cars down a million dollar per mile road.

I'll agree it is not a pretty picture. But at this point in time do you
see a better way?

gds said:

Will said:

My point is the car evacuation method is lousy. Doesn't it seem broken
to you? These people aren't escaping. They are pushing their 2500 pound
cars down a million dollar per mile road.

I'll agree it is not a pretty picture. But at this point in time do you
see a better way?

Buses? Greyhound certainly wouldn't mind.

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

gds said:

I'll agree it is not a pretty picture. But at this point in time do you
see a better way?

I'd take a page out of RAGBRAI. Have feeding/rest/support stations
every 40 miles. Encourage folks to bike out and give them logistical
support. It's not rocket science. Use community fire and police
departments along the way...

There's no mountains to climb, no rivers to swim (yet). I spent 2 weeks
overseas with less than 20 pounds of gear. How much stuff does one
need?

Put the old, the very young on school and municipal buses... Load folks
on flatbeds...

But don't issue an evac order and then watch the interstate become a
parking lot. That is grotesque.

Paul Hobson said:

gds said:

Will said:

My point is the car evacuation method is lousy. Doesn't it seem broken
to you? These people aren't escaping. They are pushing their 2500 pound
cars down a million dollar per mile road.

I'll agree it is not a pretty picture. But at this point in time do you
see a better way?

Buses? Greyhound certainly wouldn't mind.

Open up the south bound lanes for north bound traffic.

I understand they are working on this; however, this should have
happened yesterday and not be still dithering over it today...
consulting with government officials tryna decide who has jurisdiction,
etc etc.

Paul Hobson said:

Quoted message said:

Buses? Greyhound certainly wouldn't mind.

It would be quite a feat to have enough Greyhound buses staged and
ready to evacuate a million or more people.

Hey, I'm not beginning to argue that this is being well done. These
storms are showing what a poor job of disaster planning has been done.
But, that said, at this point in time there don't seem to many
alternatives to evacuation by car.

The idea of assuming that traffic is esentially one way and thus
allowing for more lanes does seem logical and doable. I guess that
means that the proposer of that idea won't ever get a government job.

Will said:

gds wrote:

I'd take a page out of RAGBRAI. Have feeding/rest/support stations
every 40 miles. Encourage folks to bike out and give them logistical
support. It's not rocket science. Use community fire and police
departments along the way...

That assumes organization and planning. Clearly that is what is missing
in the disaster response.

Quoted message said:

I spent 2 weeks

Quoted message said:

overseas with less than 20 pounds of gear. How much stuff does one
need?

That is a bit insensitive don't you think. This is not a camping trip.
Folks are faced with the very real prospect of losig everything left
behind. Now obviously in an emergency you hire a moving company and
move everything you own. But your suggestion of "How much stuff does
one need" really misses the psychological things going on when folks
see themselves losing everything.

Quoted message said:

But don't issue an evac order and then watch the interstate become a
parking lot. That is grotesque.

There we agree. But now that it is clear that there is essentially no
plan and thus no or little real preparation there really aren't many
options- good or otherwise.

Again, I'm not arguing that this was well done-just the opposite. But
now there is a situation that probably rquires massive and immediate
movement of people. So, at this point what other options are there? I
mean at this point, right now, with only hours to go.

"Paul Hobson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

gds said:

Will said:

My point is the car evacuation method is lousy. Doesn't it seem broken
to you? These people aren't escaping. They are pushing their 2500 pound
cars down a million dollar per mile road.

I'll agree it is not a pretty picture. But at this point in time do you
see a better way?

Buses? Greyhound certainly wouldn't mind.

Approx 100,000 buses would be required to evacuate Houston.

di said:

Approx 100,000 buses would be required to evacuate Houston.

I'll accept that order of magnitude.

And what would be your estimate of how many buses there are to deploy
on short notice? And absent a long standing and well publicized plan
how would folks know where to meet the buses? And absent a long
standing plan how would you get folks to the buses?

An evacuation of this magnitude is not simple. This is not being well
done but doing it well is not a simple task or one that can be done
without a whole lot of up front work.

The criticsim of FEMA and local officials is that doing this planning
is what citizens have been paying $$$ for and have a right to expect.
But now that we know there is no real plan and most assume that
evacuation is important I see little that can be done other than to
tolerate really bad traffic and hope that these experiences drive some
real disaster planning in the future.
But it is NOT simple.

di said:

Geez, do you have any idea how big Houston is? 40 miles out from downtown
you would still be in major development. When I lived there it was about
60 miles of continuous development to Galveston, and at least 15-20 miles of
development north of me, that is probably 25-30 miles now.

Excellent point!!!

I think that some folks are mixing two separate issues. On the one hand
there is plenty of criticsim to go around on how poorly prepared we
seem to be. But that does not mean being prepared is a simple task. My
guess is that the latter camp has had very little experience in doing
large scale plans of any sort. So, for the order of magnitude we are
looing at organizing RAGBRAI doesn't even make the map. That is not a
put down of RAGBRAI but simply a recognition of the enormity of moving
a million or more folks on short notice.

Think D-Day not a bike ride.

di said:

Geez, do you have any idea how big Houston is? 40 miles out from downtown
you would still be in major development. When I lived there it was about
60 miles of continuous development to Galveston, and at least 15-20 miles of
development north of me, that is probably 25-30 miles now.

Never been to Houston, but I lived in Atlanta (ughh!). So the sprawl
sounds familiar. And that experience is why I'm pro-bike for
evacuations. I cannot see getting this done with cars. The NYT is
reporting a 112 mile backup. 112 miles! Someone is going to go postal
in that mess.

The thing is, Houston is one of the most congested areas in the southern
US. I would like to see some brainstorming just like you, but there are
just too many people trying to go the same way at the same time. It is
much more difficult than trying to evac New Orleans. Hopefully,
however, 1) they started soon enough to get most people out and 2) there
will be miminal flooding.

If you think Houston is difficult, can you even begin to imagine what it
would be like in LA or NYC? No one would be ready for anything like
that either.

gds said:

Paul Hobson said:

Buses? Greyhound certainly wouldn't mind.

It would be quite a feat to have enough Greyhound buses staged and
ready to evacuate a million or more people.

Hey, I'm not beginning to argue that this is being well done. These
storms are showing what a poor job of disaster planning has been done.
But, that said, at this point in time there don't seem to many
alternatives to evacuation by car.

The idea of assuming that traffic is esentially one way and thus
allowing for more lanes does seem logical and doable. I guess that
means that the proposer of that idea won't ever get a government job.

The FL and GA coasts are very much equipped(1) to have traffic flowing
one way on both sides. It seems strange that the Gulf Coast doesn't do
this.

(1) driving to Savannah, GA on I-16 and I-95, several exits have
railroad style arms that can be lowered to prevent traffic from entering
the highway in the normal direction.

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

Will wrote:
..

Quoted message said:

Never been to Houston, but I lived in Atlanta (ughh!). So the sprawl
sounds familiar. And that experience is why I'm pro-bike for
evacuations. I cannot see getting this done with cars. The NYT is
reporting a 112 mile backup. 112 miles! Someone is going to go postal
in that mess.

OK Will I understand and share your frustration with the status quo.
But let's get serious. You really believe that you can move over a
million people over 100 miles by bike?!?!

First, how many of these millions have bikes? Then how many who have
them can ride over 100 miles? And how do you deal with issues like
small children, pets, important documents, etc?

You are oversimpllifying a very real problem to the point where I think
you are totally oblivious to the reality of the situation. Your
suggestion is like the idea of wiping out poverty by just giving
everyone some money. I like bike riding too, but it is not the answer
to every problem.