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Race report: Vermont 50 mile trail run

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
26 September 2005
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3 October 2005
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Tony S.
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  1. Race Summary:

    Start: 6:36 am, (at dawn)
    Finish: 4:40 pm, 10:04:30, 57th of 99

    Temps high 30's start, about 60 at the finish, windy and cold all day,
    especially on exposed ridges. Slightly humid.

    Total climb on my Polar s625x was 7980 feet, and there was probably at least
    an additional 500 feet on top of that not accumulated on rolling terrain.
    (The s625x only accumulates ascent in 20 foot blocks, and anything less won'
    t be counted).

    HR average 141 (74% of HR max), HR max in race 161 (85% Max).

    Feeling afterward about the race: Satisfied with the effort.
    Words of the day: Pain Management.

    Course Description:

    The course was absolutely stunning, with a great variety of trails. It was
    quite a mix: 2 miles tar roads, 15 miles dirt roads, 5 miles jeep roads, 23
    miles ATV trails, and 5 miles of single track. In the 1st 1/2, there were
    virtually no rocks, roots or obstacles, and most of it was very runable. The
    2nd 1/2 was more technical, with more single track, and with some rocky
    sections. There seemed to be much more climb in the 1st 1/2 and more
    downhills in the 2nd. Almost always it was up or down, with limited flat
    sections. There were *many* gradual uphills on the borderline of walk or run
    (at least for me).

    Some blow-by-blow:

    I went to sleep at 7pm at the campground and got up at 3am after tossing all
    night. After an early breakfast I sat in pre-race contemplation in the chill
    air in the dark. My body felt rested but it had been worn out from training
    until the last few days. My mind was ready, gearing up for the challenge of
    running all day. The truth would reveal itself as it always does in an
    ultra: your true physical and mental self will be tested and laid bare in a
    way that little else can come close to.

    Nobody I know of warms up for an ultra; normal morning preparations and
    walking back and forth to the car is enough to be ready to run. For whatever
    reason though, my body wasn't ready to run this day. I started out at my
    normal long run training pace of ~70% of Max HR, but it was cold, and that
    may have contributed to the tightness I was experiencing. By the first aid
    station I realized that I didn't have my running legs. I had stiffness in my
    left knee, right hip, left hamstring, and a few other places. Normally
    everything loosens up after 15 minutes, though sometimes it takes longer.

    Bad legs occupied most of my attention for the two hours as I tried to work
    the problem. I knew if I wasn't really careful it would be either a DNF or a
    day of excruciating pain. Was I low on food or salts? Not based on my
    preparations. Other electrolytes? It was worth a try, so I opened a pouch of
    electro mix that has mostly magnesium and potassium and took some. My plan
    was to eat and drink as much as possible, so I established the pattern
    early, taking a salt tab at one hour and nibbling on a protein/carb bar, and
    eating at every aid station.

    As the legs got worse I thought 'what have I got to lose' - if my stomach
    gets bad because of it so be it - and took some aspirin. Because it was
    mainly muscle ache pain, I wasn't worried about injury, so later in the day
    I took ibuprofen, tylenol, and more aspirin. I really don't know what was
    wrong but my legs were just so bad it was either do that or DNF. The pain
    never went away, but the painkillers helped me enough to run smoothly and
    then I was able to focus on the race, how hard to go in which places, when
    to walk, how much to conserve, how much to eat, to drink - and of course to
    enjoy the trails, scenery and good conversation.

    While the legs continued to be problematic, after about 2 hours I settled in
    and was enjoying the race more. Some of the singe-track of the first 1/2 was
    the best I've ever run on: smooth soft dirt with no rocks or roots and
    sweeping turns to float on, with long sections slightly downhill as well. I
    ran with a slow 50k runner until she turned off, then I found someone else
    to run with on the long 8 mile leg to aid station #4. Good conversation
    helped me to settle in and enjoy the run more.

    After checkpoint 4, there was a very long downhill section of over 2 miles
    that began to drain the quads. There was a section of beautiful single-track
    trail and a section of dirt road, and it was quite a contrast. The dirt road
    was clearly faster, but the single-track was so much nicer to run on. I ran
    with a guy I picked up at checkpoint 4 through this entire section and for
    the next 12 miles. He had done the VT 100 and the 50 a few times and many
    other ultra races and we had a good conversation and paced each other well.

    After (or maybe just before) checkpoint 6 at 32 miles, there began a really
    long series of ATV and/or single-track switchbacks that were quite funny as
    they weaved endlessly back and forth. An unscrupulous runner could have cut
    the course in many places, but most people in an ultra are honest I think,
    and too focused on the trail to notice such opportunities. It was in these
    sections and in later slightly more technical sections where we would
    see-saw with a few straggling bikers, although we had seen a dozen or so
    bikers earlier, some having mechanical problems, some just slow. (The bikers
    all started before the runners).

    In the downhills from aid station 6 at mile 32 to aid station 7 at mile 37,
    my quads were feeling it, and I began to slow my pace slightly on the
    downhills in order to conserve enough strength in my legs to finish the race
    still running all flats and downhills. While in this section I had to stop
    to take my 2nd [censored] - A good sign I was hydrating well - and who should pass
    me but Doug. Being the wily ultra-veteran, Doug had started a bit slower
    than me, though I hadn't exactly been burning it up with my bad legs and
    all.

    I ran with Doug for a while through aid station 7 at 37 miles and through
    most of the next leg to aid station 8 at 42 miles. He was watching the clock
    and was starting to pick it up in order to break 10 hours, and was rolling
    down the hills, whereas I needed to slow down slightly on the hills. Since
    he was itchy to break 10 hours, I called to him "go for it" as he pulled
    away downhill and added "I've gotta save enough to get up to my car
    after!" - which sounded a bit like a joke at the time but I was being
    serious as everyone was asked to park up the hill from the finish, and when
    you're toast (as I've been on other occasions) it can be a challenge getting
    up the hill to the car after the race. I last saw him just leaving aid
    station 8 as I was coming in.

    The last 8 miles were tough, as much of it was downhill. I was encouraged by
    a guy who passed me. He wasn't in the race and said he was running just the
    last 18 miles of the course and that I looked better than anyone else he
    passed. My form hadn't broken down, I was just slower on the downs than I
    would have liked because I knew I had to save something. It was paying off
    here in the last 8 miles. I caught and passed at 6-7 more people. I think I
    passed about 20-25 people all day, and was passed by about 5 or 6 at various
    points.

    Just before the final aid station at 47 miles, there were several guys
    walking who tried to run as I came up and passed them, but their legs were
    toast. The final 3 miles was a climb up the side of the mountain, then a
    traverse across the ski slope, then down a ski run to the finish. I passed
    one more guy in the woods just before the ski slope, and it was clear his
    quads were badly shot. I passed on some advice I was using myself now in
    places: run down very steep stuff backwards if your quads are going or are
    gone. Doing that a few times in the final mile or so saved just enough for
    me to run down the final patch of ski run to the finish area (and to get
    back up to my car easily 🙂.

    My goal had been to run evenly and within myself throughout the race,
    especially in the first 1/2, and to see what that got me. The time wasn't
    important, but I was somewhat pleased with a 10:04 considering my problems.
    I was able to run all the flats and downhills and almost all of the gradual
    uphills, just slowed somewhat on the downhills in the last 1/3 particularly.
    I was satisfied with how I measured my pace enough to finish running. I
    never got to a point where I had to walk on a flat. It was a rich, full day,
    but quite hard. My love of trail running will always be there. I don't love
    the challenge of ultras in the same way I love trail running, but I'm glad I
    tried another 50 mile and did better than the first time.

    Hydration and Eating:

    I took succeed salt caps every hour for the first 7 hours, then every 45
    minutes. It was a cool day, but I drank a great deal - at least 19 20oz
    bottles, and many more cups at aid stations. I also ate something at every
    aid station from #3 on, and nibbled a large protein bar in the first 6
    hours. Then I switched to sandwiches (PB&J went down very well) and cookies
    for the rest of the race. Coke and Mt. Dew tasted good. I drank the Heed
    maltodextrin sports drink they offered and it went down well. I carried Heed
    in two 20oz bottles I filled at every station. My saving grace was that my
    stomach was very good (that and near perfect weather).

    Splits:
    time HR ascent ~mile
    1 0:45 144 440' 4
    2 0:50 145 820' 9
    3 0:44 146 640' 12
    4 1:37 145 1820' 20
    5 1:06 141 640' 26
    6 1:17 139 1060' 32
    7 1:10 136 1060' 37
    8 0:37 140 440' 42
    9 1:18 137 540' 47
    10 0:41 137 520' 50

    The distances given are approximate, based on the aid stations as listed on
    the course map. Generally, my HR is lower in the 2nd half, owing in part to
    running the downhills slower in an effort to (keep running) preserve my
    quads to the very end. I had much more aerobic capacity that I couldn't use;
    the legs were the limiting factor. I wish I knew the descent in more detail
    because it seemed like the 2nd 1/2 of the race was mostly downhill (an
    observation rendered unreliable because my quads were hurting).

    General Lessons:

    Wear more clothes. I wore a singlet and was cold early in the race, and also
    later in the race as the wind picked up. It was 50f or less up on the hills
    even later in the day, and about 60f at the finish, but it was slightly
    humid, so the wind made it a bit raw.

    Train more on downhills and don't over-train.

    Training Critique:

    In retrospect I was at least slightly over-trained, meaning I didn't give my
    legs enough recovery time from my last harder sessions, and/or some of my
    training sessions were just too hard. My long run of 7 hours 3 weeks before
    the race was probably an hour too long. I also did shorter runs 2 weeks and
    1 week before that were a bit too fast, even though they were done mostly
    below 80% effort. Apparently that was too much on top of the month of 4-5
    hour runs I did every week in late August and early September. Also when I'm
    doing very long runs, I gain weight, some from extra bulk in my legs, and
    some fat from overeating due to increased hunger such sessions bring. In the
    2 months between my escarpment race and the Vermont 50, I gained back about
    5 pounds to about 168.

    Personal Course Critique:

    In the last 1/2, there were far too many trails traversing hills with a
    right-to-left slope, exacerbated by the final traversing of a 30+% ski slope
    right before the finish. This made for some blisters and an extra painful
    right hip. Also, the technical sections, while not very rocky, were
    difficult in the last 15 miles only. Much of the first 30 miles was on very
    smooth curvy but soft runable trail. It really would have been nice to have
    that toward the end instead of more technical and an inordinate amount of
    right-to-left slope. This being said, overall there were over 10 miles of
    the best trails I've ever run on in this course.

    -Tony

  2. Quoted message said:

    Race Summary:

    Start: 6:36 am, (at dawn)
    Finish: 4:40 pm, 10:04:30, 57th of 99

    [...]

    Thanks for the awesome report, Tony. Too bad that it just wasn't your day.
    Starting out a run of such magnitude with stiff legs has to be a bummer. It
    seems that you still enjoyed yourself, in spite of the difficulties. It
    must have been an inspiring course. Is there a site that has some decent
    photos?

    --
    Phil M.

  3. On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:42:11 GMT, "Tony S."
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ....

    Quoted message said:

    Personal Course Critique:

    In the last 1/2, there were far too many trails traversing hills with a
    right-to-left slope, exacerbated by the final traversing of a 30+% ski slope
    right before the finish. ...


    thank you for the write up. i'm keeping it. one day I'm hoping to
    be able to do this course. not this year and not 2006 but someday.
    I experienced the same anxiety on a right to left hill this year.
    my left knee had real bad ITB last year and I was very
    afraid of that one run bringing it back. it didn't but one thing
    i'd like race organizers to think about is balancing the right
    to left stress. i want to stay injury free.
    ....thehick

  4. "Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Feeling afterward about the race: Satisfied with the effort.
    Words of the day: Pain Management.

    I can identify. There have been a couple of 50 mile races which have been
    orthopedic/muscular pain-fests. On my last 50, my quads were so cooked that
    I lost 15 minutes in the last 6 miles to someone I'd almost caught on an
    uphill. The spirit and energy stores are willing, but gawd, it's painful.

    One endures it because while it's uncomfortable for a few hours, the psychic
    pain of dropping out never ends. At the finish line, the sense of relief
    coupled with the self-respect from knowing you perservered makes it worth
    it. (Note to newbies: don't try this at home. If I had joint pain, I'd
    have packed it in)

    On the other hand, having orthopedic problems early on does quell the urge
    to go too fast. On some races I've felt so good at the start that I've
    cooked myself for the last 1/3.

    A pretty good time for a tough course (not super steep, but all up and
    down), despite your problems.

    Nice work,

    Dan

  5. "Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Race Summary:

    Start: 6:36 am, (at dawn)
    Finish: 4:40 pm, 10:04:30, 57th of 99

    [...]

    Thanks for the awesome report, Tony. Too bad that it just wasn't your day.
    Starting out a run of such magnitude with stiff legs has to be a bummer.


    It

    Quoted message said:

    seems that you still enjoyed yourself, in spite of the difficulties. It
    must have been an inspiring course. Is there a site that has some decent
    photos?

    It was a bummer after all that extra training to start the race in pain
    rather than getting it just in the last few hours as most will in an ultra.
    I did enjoy myself, especially on the best trails. I get a real rush from a
    good trail, more than enough to cruise through the pain. There should be
    some photos but I lost the site reference. Didn't see any links on their
    main website yet, so I'll post that later.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    --
    Phil M.

  6. "Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Feeling afterward about the race: Satisfied with the effort.
    Words of the day: Pain Management.

    I can identify. There have been a couple of 50 mile races which have been
    orthopedic/muscular pain-fests. On my last 50, my quads were so cooked


    that

    Quoted message said:

    I lost 15 minutes in the last 6 miles to someone I'd almost caught on an
    uphill. The spirit and energy stores are willing, but gawd, it's painful.

    I felt like I gauged and doled-out the quad tank pretty well after seeing it
    begin to drain slightly on the downhills after the 20 mile aid station, so
    in that sense it was successful energy management. My knees didn't buckle,
    but they might have had I not run down a few really steep sections toward
    the end backwards.

    Quoted message said:

    One endures it because while it's uncomfortable for a few hours, the


    psychic

    Quoted message said:

    pain of dropping out never ends. At the finish line, the sense of relief
    coupled with the self-respect from knowing you perservered makes it worth
    it. (Note to newbies: don't try this at home. If I had joint pain, I'd
    have packed it in)

    I was a bit worried so early on to face a full day of pain, but it became
    managable, with the help of painkillers yes, but also with tweaks to running
    form, and perhaps the extra electrolytes helped. For a guy like me, for whom
    a 50 mile is big event, I wanted to make it work somehow.

    Quoted message said:

    On the other hand, having orthopedic problems early on does quell the urge
    to go too fast. On some races I've felt so good at the start that I've
    cooked myself for the last 1/3.

    A pretty good time for a tough course (not super steep, but all up and
    down), despite your problems.

    Nice work,

    Thanks Dan, it was a step forward for me, revisiting the distance that
    kicked my butt 3 years ago, and finishing maybe not strong, but still
    running pretty well.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Dan

  7. "frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:42:11 GMT, "Tony S."
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ...

    Quoted message said:

    Personal Course Critique:

    In the last 1/2, there were far too many trails traversing hills with a
    right-to-left slope, exacerbated by the final traversing of a 30+% ski


    slope

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    right before the finish. ...

    thank you for the write up. i'm keeping it. one day I'm hoping to
    be able to do this course. not this year and not 2006 but someday.
    I experienced the same anxiety on a right to left hill this year.
    my left knee had real bad ITB last year and I was very
    afraid of that one run bringing it back. it didn't but one thing
    i'd like race organizers to think about is balancing the right
    to left stress. i want to stay injury free.
    ...thehick

    The course changes slightly every year, as different landowners give
    permission or deny it, but from talking to many people who've run it in past
    years, the terrain and character of the race remains about the same.

    The right-to-left thing was bugging me because I seem to have a particular
    problem with that side, but I notice it either way. I'm sure it's really
    hard to balance a course for everything. I just felt like commenting on it.

    -Tony

  8. Tony S. said:

    Race Summary:

    Start: 6:36 am, (at dawn)
    Finish: 4:40 pm, 10:04:30, 57th of 99

    Temps high 30's start, about 60 at the finish, windy and cold all day,
    especially on exposed ridges. Slightly humid.

    Sounds like a good day for a long run 🙂.

    Quoted message said:


    Total climb on my Polar s625x was 7980 feet, and there was probably at least
    an additional 500 feet on top of that not accumulated on rolling terrain.
    (The s625x only accumulates ascent in 20 foot blocks, and anything less won'
    t be counted).

    HR average 141 (74% of HR max), HR max in race 161 (85% Max).

    Feeling afterward about the race: Satisfied with the effort.

    Good!

    Quoted message said:

    Words of the day: Pain Management.

    oh, oh 🙁

    Quoted message said:

    Some blow-by-blow:

    Nobody I know of warms up for an ultra; normal morning preparations and
    walking back and forth to the car is enough to be ready to run. For whatever
    reason though, my body wasn't ready to run this day. I started out at my
    normal long run training pace of ~70% of Max HR, but it was cold, and that
    may have contributed to the tightness I was experiencing.

    I think I've posted this before or something like it from Armstrong's
    book (p.104): "the maximal contractile force of skeletal muscle is
    decreased by cooling. The body may compensate for this by recruiting
    fast-twitch glycolytic muscle fibers, thereby using stored glycogen at a
    faster rate and hastening fatigue." (there's a lot of other good stuff
    in there, but that's one highlight).

    By the first aid

    Quoted message said:

    station I realized that I didn't have my running legs. I had stiffness in my
    left knee, right hip, left hamstring, and a few other places. Normally
    everything loosens up after 15 minutes, though sometimes it takes longer.

    Just curious. Was this much earlier - and cooler for summer - in the
    morning than you normally run? Did any of your pre-race/run warmups get
    left out - even if just simple walking and minor stretching? Did you
    have wind pants or other long pants that could've been easily used then
    removed when temperatures got hot? (I'm curious since I don't usually
    run early in the morning or right out of bed since it takes my muscles a
    while to get moving and not risk injury. However, I did try this this
    summer while volunteering, and the results were rather amusing. Amusing
    since I wasn't running the race and had 2 yrs to figure it out.)

    Quoted message said:

    He had done the VT 100 and the 50 a few times and many
    other ultra races and we had a good conversation and paced each other well.

    Sounds like a gab-fest to me, not a race 😉 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    (The bikers
    all started before the runners).

    Interesting since I noticed a runner was the 1st across the finish line
    (50k).

    Quoted message said:

    and who should pass
    me but Doug. Being the wily ultra-veteran, Doug had started a bit slower
    than me, though I hadn't exactly been burning it up with my bad legs and
    all.

    Doug's a wily one all right 😉

    Quoted message said:


    The last 8 miles were tough, as much of it was downhill. I was encouraged by
    a guy who passed me. He wasn't in the race and said he was running just the
    last 18 miles of the course and that I looked better than anyone else he
    passed. My form hadn't broken down, I was just slower on the downs than I
    would have liked because I knew I had to save something. It was paying off
    here in the last 8 miles. I caught and passed at 6-7 more people. I think I
    passed about 20-25 people all day, and was passed by about 5 or 6 at various
    points.

    Good show on keeping form and passing others.

    Quoted message said:

    I passed on some advice I was using myself now in
    places: run down very steep stuff backwards if your quads are going or are
    gone.

    People sometimes laugh at our backwards running drills in our xt class,
    but it definitely works muscles differently. I've seen runners in our
    local mtn race go downhill backwards for the relief. I can still
    remember backpacking downhill backwards when I had screwed up my knees
    about 30+ years ago.

    Quoted message said:


    My goal had been to run evenly and within myself throughout the race,
    especially in the first 1/2, and to see what that got me. The time wasn't
    important, but I was somewhat pleased with a 10:04 considering my problems.

    Excellent race! and an improvement over your earlier 50mi, iirc.

    Quoted message said:

    General Lessons:

    Wear more clothes. I wore a singlet and was cold early in the race, and also
    later in the race as the wind picked up. It was 50f or less up on the hills
    even later in the day, and about 60f at the finish, but it was slightly
    humid, so the wind made it a bit raw.

    Just a general comment since I know it's sometimes advocated to dress as
    if it were 10-20F warmer - which is fine for short runs around town. I
    tested some minimalistic approaches to weather this summer, and for me,
    I found they were too risky (potential hypothermia). Temperatures change
    too fast in the mountains with elevation changes and exposure. Cold
    muscles mean slower movement, less heat generation, less coordination,
    increased chance of injury - either from cold muscles directly or from
    resultant face plant.

    Across the duration of most ultras, you can almost be sure the weather
    will change - even if it's just going from pre-dawn cold to mid-day
    heat. Some people can adjust to those changes in the short term; others,
    like myself, need clothing to help. I've found unless it's hot (70+F,
    maybe 65F), I probably run faster in long pants since my muscles are
    warm and more fluid.

    A few years ago I saw a hypothermic runner pulled off a marathon course.
    He was down, rescued with 4-wheeler, and finally taken to ambulance
    since they couldn't warm him in the suburban (I was watching by one of
    the first aid stations).

    Quoted message said:


    Train more on downhills and don't over-train.

    IM Mike T. doesn't post much here anymore, but he was always a big fan
    of showing up at the starting line slightly undertrained, rather than
    being injured. I'm definitely on the new side, but I think finding that
    optimum level of recovery / taper is one of the hardest things to do.
    How much time does it take to recover from last long run, speed work, or
    big hill run to peak for a race, as opposed to recover to just do the
    next easy run? And we don't know that until we've tried. You've got some
    more data points now, and the next time you'll get closer. (sez she, my
    race report's coming)

    Quoted message said:

    Personal Course Critique:

    Much of the first 30 miles was on very
    smooth curvy but soft runable trail. It really would have been nice to have
    that toward the end instead of more technical

    RD's like to be devilish 😉, although it could be just the way things
    came out. One thing I've noticed when there's a short and long course
    (at least for shorter races <9mi), the long course doesn't have just
    more distance, it usually has more fun things (in a devilish way) for a
    challenge.

    Sounds like you had a good day overall working through both mental and
    physical challenges! Congratulations on a job well done!. Now rest up!

    Thanks for the report. It was really informative.

    Dot

    --
    "running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
    people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
    about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

  9. Tony S. said:

    As the legs got worse I thought 'what have I got to lose' - if my
    stomach gets bad because of it so be it - and took some aspirin.
    Because it was mainly muscle ache pain, I wasn't worried about injury,
    so later in the day I took ibuprofen, tylenol, and more aspirin.

    Unless you are getting paid to do it, having to take painkillers to
    participate in a sport seems wrong. Is this a common practice in ultras?

  10. Tony S. said:

    Start: 6:36 am, (at dawn)
    Finish: 4:40 pm, 10:04:30, 57th of 99
    Feeling afterward about the race: Satisfied with the effort.
    Words of the day: Pain Management.

    Beautiful.

    Clearly it was no walk in the park, but I'm so glad to hear your run on
    the trails went as well as it did. Way to keep at it.

    Congrats, Tony!

    I couldn't presume to offer you any advice or knowing commiseration
    with regard to VT50 or ultras or trail running, but I will concur with
    Dot that there can be such a thing as running/racing a little too
    nekkid. Wearing naught but skimpy shorts, a singlet, and cotton gloves
    in too-cold weather last fall for my (Mystic Places, CT) marathon was a
    large factor contributing to my hours of misery out there: muscles
    never fully warmed up and became supple. Legs were brittle but at
    least eventually warmed up somewhat from the constant movement; arms
    were actually much worse and really ached badly from the halfway point
    on (but only 13 miles to go, no reason to stop now!) This must be even
    more salient at ultra pace - you're just not going to generate the same
    kind of heat as you would running a 10k, plus you're out there longer.

    Oh, and should there be a disclaimer about taking ibuprofen on the run
    - like in addition to potentially masking the pain of an injury (of
    which I'm skeptical - Advil's no blot-it-all-out morphine for me, more
    of a blunt-the-worst-of-it - until I hear a few accounts of stress
    fractures which came as a surprise four hours later once the pills wore
    off), isn't there some potential for liver damage? (If so, how likely
    and how damaging?) I'd have done as you did - all that training, the
    big fifty miler - just thinking we should all be aware of potential
    consequences.

  11. "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony S. said:

    Race Summary:

    Start: 6:36 am, (at dawn)
    Finish: 4:40 pm, 10:04:30, 57th of 99

    Temps high 30's start, about 60 at the finish, windy and cold all day,
    especially on exposed ridges. Slightly humid.

    Sounds like a good day for a long run 🙂.

    Indeed, and sure glad it wasn't hot, though that's what I'm used to.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Total climb on my Polar s625x was 7980 feet, and there was probably at


    least

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    an additional 500 feet on top of that not accumulated on rolling


    terrain.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    (The s625x only accumulates ascent in 20 foot blocks, and anything less


    won'

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    t be counted).

    HR average 141 (74% of HR max), HR max in race 161 (85% Max).

    Feeling afterward about the race: Satisfied with the effort.

    Good!

    Quoted message said:

    Words of the day: Pain Management.

    oh, oh 🙁

    Quoted message said:


    Some blow-by-blow:

    Nobody I know of warms up for an ultra; normal morning preparations and
    walking back and forth to the car is enough to be ready to run. For


    whatever

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    reason though, my body wasn't ready to run this day. I started out at my
    normal long run training pace of ~70% of Max HR, but it was cold, and


    that

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    may have contributed to the tightness I was experiencing.

    I think I've posted this before or something like it from Armstrong's
    book (p.104): "the maximal contractile force of skeletal muscle is
    decreased by cooling. The body may compensate for this by recruiting
    fast-twitch glycolytic muscle fibers, thereby using stored glycogen at a
    faster rate and hastening fatigue." (there's a lot of other good stuff
    in there, but that's one highlight).

    Hmmm, this was possibly part of the problem, but I think there was something
    else off - too much acidity in the body, or some other slight chemical
    imbalance. The problem - achy and stiff leg muscles and joints - was there
    pretty much right away.

    Quoted message said:

    By the first aid

    Quoted message said:

    station I realized that I didn't have my running legs. I had stiffness


    in my

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    left knee, right hip, left hamstring, and a few other places. Normally
    everything loosens up after 15 minutes, though sometimes it takes


    longer.

    Quoted message said:


    Just curious. Was this much earlier - and cooler for summer - in the
    morning than you normally run? Did any of your pre-race/run warmups get
    left out - even if just simple walking and minor stretching? Did you
    have wind pants or other long pants that could've been easily used then
    removed when temperatures got hot? (I'm curious since I don't usually
    run early in the morning or right out of bed since it takes my muscles a
    while to get moving and not risk injury. However, I did try this this
    summer while volunteering, and the results were rather amusing. Amusing
    since I wasn't running the race and had 2 yrs to figure it out.)

    It was a bit earlier than I normally run yes, but not by much, as I often
    ran early to avoid the heat this summer. It was cooler by a wide margin, at
    least 25 degrees cooler than I've run in a while, and I'm sure this
    contributed to the problem. My pre-run warmup is normally walking for about
    10 minutes, and I easily exceeded that walking back and forth to my car in
    the upper lot. I wore a warm fleece top and bottom until right before the
    race, jogging down to the line 2 minutes before the start. My hands were a
    bit cold the first 20 minutes, but I was warm enough other than that.

    In terms of clothing, I could have worn more generally, and should have worn
    at least a coolmax tee instead of a singlet. They had drop spots also, so I
    could easily have worn warm-up gear, but I was toasty before starting, and
    the last weather report I heard said it would warm close to 70 later in the
    day. Normally I can do races in colder temps without a lot more clothing, so
    I wasn't concerned. In retrospect, wearing a long sleeve top and gloves for
    a while would have been more comfortable. Pants, I'm not sure, and I don't
    think it would have helped with the problem I had.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    He had done the VT 100 and the 50 a few times and many
    other ultra races and we had a good conversation and paced each other


    well.

    Quoted message said:


    Sounds like a gab-fest to me, not a race 😉 🙂

    lol, yes, and a welcome diversion.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    (The bikers
    all started before the runners).

    Interesting since I noticed a runner was the 1st across the finish line
    (50k).

    Yea, I saw that too, but remember he only went 31 miles the bikers went 50.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and who should pass
    me but Doug. Being the wily ultra-veteran, Doug had started a bit slower
    than me, though I hadn't exactly been burning it up with my bad legs and
    all.

    Doug's a wily one all right 😉

    Damn redliners ruin the spirit of the race!!!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The last 8 miles were tough, as much of it was downhill. I was


    encouraged by

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a guy who passed me. He wasn't in the race and said he was running just


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    last 18 miles of the course and that I looked better than anyone else he
    passed. My form hadn't broken down, I was just slower on the downs than


    I

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    would have liked because I knew I had to save something. It was paying


    off

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    here in the last 8 miles. I caught and passed at 6-7 more people. I


    think I

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    passed about 20-25 people all day, and was passed by about 5 or 6 at


    various

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    points.

    Good show on keeping form and passing others.

    Yup, even with quad (and other) pain I felt good, and was happy to still be
    running fairly well. My spirits lifted in the last few miles as I passed
    more people and knew that I had enough in the tank still.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I passed on some advice I was using myself now in
    places: run down very steep stuff backwards if your quads are going or


    are

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    gone.

    People sometimes laugh at our backwards running drills in our xt class,
    but it definitely works muscles differently. I've seen runners in our
    local mtn race go downhill backwards for the relief. I can still
    remember backpacking downhill backwards when I had screwed up my knees
    about 30+ years ago.

    You use whatever works, and that trick works great, provided the footing is
    decent enough that you won't fall 🙂

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    My goal had been to run evenly and within myself throughout the race,
    especially in the first 1/2, and to see what that got me. The time


    wasn't

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    important, but I was somewhat pleased with a 10:04 considering my


    problems.

    Quoted message said:


    Excellent race! and an improvement over your earlier 50mi, iirc.

    Thanks, yea overall a success and a big improvement for me time-wise also,
    from 11:33 to 10:04. 2 days after I'm happy enough.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    General Lessons:

    Wear more clothes. I wore a singlet and was cold early in the race, and


    also

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    later in the race as the wind picked up. It was 50f or less up on the


    hills

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    even later in the day, and about 60f at the finish, but it was slightly
    humid, so the wind made it a bit raw.

    Just a general comment since I know it's sometimes advocated to dress as
    if it were 10-20F warmer - which is fine for short runs around town. I
    tested some minimalistic approaches to weather this summer, and for me,
    I found they were too risky (potential hypothermia). Temperatures change
    too fast in the mountains with elevation changes and exposure. Cold
    muscles mean slower movement, less heat generation, less coordination,
    increased chance of injury - either from cold muscles directly or from
    resultant face plant.

    Very true, and I regretted not wearing at least a tee. It never warmed up,
    and as the wind picked up it was chilly. I felt cool, but never cold, and
    eating a lot must have helped. I must have been sweating a great deal too,
    as I drank over 400oz of fluid, peeing just twice.

    Quoted message said:

    Across the duration of most ultras, you can almost be sure the weather
    will change - even if it's just going from pre-dawn cold to mid-day
    heat. Some people can adjust to those changes in the short term; others,
    like myself, need clothing to help. I've found unless it's hot (70+F,
    maybe 65F), I probably run faster in long pants since my muscles are
    warm and more fluid.

    Yes, especially in Vermont. Carrying a hat and thin gloves would have been
    smart. The guy I ran with for 12 miles had a shell jacket in his [censored] pack.
    If I do it again I'll think about what more I might bring.

    Quoted message said:

    A few years ago I saw a hypothermic runner pulled off a marathon course.
    He was down, rescued with 4-wheeler, and finally taken to ambulance
    since they couldn't warm him in the suburban (I was watching by one of
    the first aid stations).

    Quoted message said:


    Train more on downhills and don't over-train.

    IM Mike T. doesn't post much here anymore, but he was always a big fan
    of showing up at the starting line slightly undertrained, rather than
    being injured. I'm definitely on the new side, but I think finding that
    optimum level of recovery / taper is one of the hardest things to do.
    How much time does it take to recover from last long run, speed work, or
    big hill run to peak for a race, as opposed to recover to just do the
    next easy run? And we don't know that until we've tried. You've got some
    more data points now, and the next time you'll get closer. (sez she, my
    race report's coming)

    Yea, it's an art for sure. It was an experiment to ramp up my long run
    frequency a lot, but I generally felt good. Something chemical inside got
    out of balance, and Iike I said earlier, I suspect an acid imbalance. I
    should have seen that coming. Then I could have eaten a more alkaline diet
    last week.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Personal Course Critique:

    Much of the first 30 miles was on very
    smooth curvy but soft runable trail. It really would have been nice to


    have

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that toward the end instead of more technical

    RD's like to be devilish 😉, although it could be just the way things
    came out. One thing I've noticed when there's a short and long course
    (at least for shorter races <9mi), the long course doesn't have just
    more distance, it usually has more fun things (in a devilish way) for a
    challenge.

    I don't think it was intentional, as the course was a giant loop, and that's
    just the way the trails came out this year with permission needed from over
    60 landowners. I just felt like commenting 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    Sounds like you had a good day overall working through both mental and
    physical challenges! Congratulations on a job well done!. Now rest up!

    Thanks for the report. It was really informative.

    Thanks, and you're welcome. It was tough but I'm happy with how it worked
    out and I really loved some of the trails; that made it well worth it.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Dot

    --
    "running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
    people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
    about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

  12. "Mark Hutchinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1127824841.75d4e73bc4d65a5fc6fb2c0fa023ba50@teranews...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony S. said:

    As the legs got worse I thought 'what have I got to lose' - if my
    stomach gets bad because of it so be it - and took some aspirin.
    Because it was mainly muscle ache pain, I wasn't worried about injury,
    so later in the day I took ibuprofen, tylenol, and more aspirin.

    Unless you are getting paid to do it, having to take painkillers to
    participate in a sport seems wrong. Is this a common practice in ultras?

    Yes, probably. One of the latter aid stations had painkillers of various
    types on offer. Normally I don't / wouldn't take anything. Painkillers in
    general can mask more serious problems, and can damage the liver, so
    generally, I agree with you. In this case I chose to take the risk because
    it wasn't an acute pain, but a general deep achy pain, and it may have been
    my last attempt at the distance. I'm not saying what others should do, just
    reporting honestly what I did.

    -Tony

  13. "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony S. said:

    Start: 6:36 am, (at dawn)
    Finish: 4:40 pm, 10:04:30, 57th of 99
    Feeling afterward about the race: Satisfied with the effort.
    Words of the day: Pain Management.

    Beautiful.

    Clearly it was no walk in the park, but I'm so glad to hear your run on
    the trails went as well as it did. Way to keep at it.

    Congrats, Tony!

    Thanks Charlie.

    Quoted message said:

    I couldn't presume to offer you any advice or knowing commiseration
    with regard to VT50 or ultras or trail running, but I will concur with
    Dot that there can be such a thing as running/racing a little too
    nekkid. Wearing naught but skimpy shorts, a singlet, and cotton gloves
    in too-cold weather last fall for my (Mystic Places, CT) marathon was a
    large factor contributing to my hours of misery out there: muscles
    never fully warmed up and became supple. Legs were brittle but at
    least eventually warmed up somewhat from the constant movement; arms
    were actually much worse and really ached badly from the halfway point
    on (but only 13 miles to go, no reason to stop now!) This must be even
    more salient at ultra pace - you're just not going to generate the same
    kind of heat as you would running a 10k, plus you're out there longer.

    I ran the 10 miles there at Mystic last year! I ran in a coolmax tee and
    shorts, which was *ok* for the 10 miler, but it was a really cold wind that
    day; I remember it well. I agree that I was under-dressed at VT a bit. Early
    morning decisions...

    While it was cold at the start in Vermont, it was in the 50's most of the
    day, and except for exposed ridges, it wasn't chilly, at least for me. I
    squeaked by, but learned something.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and should there be a disclaimer about taking ibuprofen on the run
    - like in addition to potentially masking the pain of an injury (of
    which I'm skeptical - Advil's no blot-it-all-out morphine for me, more
    of a blunt-the-worst-of-it - until I hear a few accounts of stress
    fractures which came as a surprise four hours later once the pills wore
    off), isn't there some potential for liver damage? (If so, how likely
    and how damaging?) I'd have done as you did - all that training, the
    big fifty miler - just thinking we should all be aware of potential
    consequences.

    I've heard of a risk of liver damage, and I normally stay away from
    everything but aspirin in general. It was one of those times where I *had*
    to do something to combat the problem - or DNF. Hell, even a placebo might
    have helped at that point. There are times we break our own rules, and I'm
    just telling it like it was, not giving advice.

    -Tony

  14. All I can say, Tony, is WOW! Congratulations on a very well-managed
    run with a good time. Very sorry your legs weren't cooperating as
    they should have, but you made the best of it and kept enough to
    finish strong. Impressive!

    Teresa in AZ

    Tony S. said:

    Race Summary:

    Start: 6:36 am, (at dawn)
    Finish: 4:40 pm, 10:04:30, 57th of 99

    Temps high 30's start, about 60 at the finish, windy and cold all day,
    especially on exposed ridges. Slightly humid.

    Total climb on my Polar s625x was 7980 feet, and there was probably at least
    an additional 500 feet on top of that not accumulated on rolling terrain.
    (The s625x only accumulates ascent in 20 foot blocks, and anything less won'
    t be counted).

    HR average 141 (74% of HR max), HR max in race 161 (85% Max).

    Feeling afterward about the race: Satisfied with the effort.
    Words of the day: Pain Management.

    -Tony

  15. Tony S. said:

    I ran the 10 miles there at Mystic last year!

    No [censored]?!?

    Small world!

    I ran and chatted for a while with someone doing the ten. You don't
    recognize this hideous orangutan by any chance, do you?

    http://tinypic.com/e0l5a8.jpg // more clothes, dumbass!
    http://tinypic.com/e0l5hz.jpg // "I'll never do THAT again"

    Quoted message said:

    There are times we break our own rules, and I'm
    just telling it like it was, not giving advice.

    Understood, and I truly would have done exactly the same.

  16. Sorry, no blow by blow from me for number 10. I went, I ran, I
    finished(9:46), the weather was perfect, the course a hair different and
    I would say about 10-15 minutes slower than last year. They replaced
    some dirt road with beautiful but slower single track.

    It was fun running a little with Tony but his quads were a little toasty
    and I was feeling great. After I left him I had really pressed the
    accelerator cuz I wanted to get under 10 hours. I had been running more
    and more of the ups from mile 25. I picked off 27 runners, yes, counting
    Tony, in the last 25 miles and nobody passed me. I know I passed many
    others but they were sitting in chairs at the aid stations. I ran just
    about every inch until the climb at 48 where I had to walk/run. I did
    fly on the level and downs - inspiration when you can smell the barn
    door.

    The highlight of may day was my first time women did fantastic. 6:13 for
    the 50k and 10:11 for the 50 mile. For first time racers at that
    distance they were great. I think they both finished 6th in their
    respective age groups. They looked good and felt good at the finish. In
    independent disussions they both said, now I really undertand why we
    trained the way we did. You can talk all day but until you actually do
    the walk.

    We drank some beer and partied hard, hard was until 9 where we all went
    into our respective rooms and comas. We got together in the morning and
    made pancakes, eggs and bacon and reminisced about the details we were
    too numb to think about after the beer. Great weekend, beautiful course,
    well stocked aid stations and fun people. Can't get much better.

    For my egomaniac bud Lance, I finished second in my age group. 😉 I have
    no idea about position number because all the bikers, 50k and 50 miles
    results are lumped together with a key code for the moment. They will
    break them out later when the get some time.

    -Doug F

  17. "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I couldn't presume to offer you any advice or knowing commiseration
    with regard to VT50 or ultras or trail running, but I will concur with
    Dot that there can be such a thing as running/racing a little too
    nekkid.

    At dinner the night before I suggested to the rookies to carry a long
    sleeve something in case it rained or got cold. We had a mometary
    sprinkle but it did get chilly for me in just a short sleve shirt. I
    took mine off for few a few hours and then put it back on.

    -DF

  18. Quoted message said:

    I picked off 27 runners, yes, counting


    Tony, in the last 25 miles and nobody passed me.
    __

    Congrats Doug....but honestly...you are so focused and centered on
    beating others...it's disgusting. you don't understand or know the
    meaning of "running". look at you...consumed in a big [censored] contest and
    focused on time and cutting a certain goal. it's terrible...you're
    nothing but a redliner. just look at you,..."I picked off"...."nobody
    passed me"....and egomanical redliner personified. maybe one day
    you'll learn to run for the pure pleasure of it and not be so consumed
    with competition and beating others....you actually count the number of
    people you pass in a race?....that's a low i know nothing of....good
    grief...

  19. On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:47:58 GMT, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry, no blow by blow from me for number 10

    Just blowing a 10'er.

  20. "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    You don't
    recognize this hideous orangutan by any chance, do you?

    http://tinypic.com/e0l5a8.jpg

    "What of Lazarus... what of Lazarus..."

    http://tinypic.com/e0lxd3.jpg

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