Drop bar replacements?

in message <[email hidden]>,

stuart doc (') said:

I'm thinking of replacing the drop bars on my tourer with flat bars.
I'm not finding the drops that comfortable after many years on my mtb.
Has anyone any suggestions?

You'll need new brake levers/shifters, but apart from that no special
problems. It's a fairly easy job to do.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.

Try moustache bars! They're sized to be a direct replacement for drops.

If you had MTB hardware, I'd recommend albatross bars as they tend to be
sized for MTB kit. Cheaper than replacing shifters and brake levers.

I went from flat bars to albatross' and I love them.

C.

"stuart doc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking of replacing the drop bars on my tourer with flat bars.
I'm not finding the drops that comfortable after many years on my mtb.
Has anyone any suggestions?

__
Stuart

"stuart doc" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking of replacing the drop bars on my tourer with flat bars.
I'm not finding the drops that comfortable after many years on my mtb.
Has anyone any suggestions?

Your tourer frame is likely to be shorter than your mtb (560mm vs 600mm)
and its stem will be shorter (90mm vs 120mm).

To make up the shortfall you will need a longer stem.otherwise the flat bar
will feel cramped. Also fit bar ends inboard of the grips so that you have
scope to adjust your body position fore/aft slightly. This arrangement
gives straighter wrists and leaves the hands much better supported &
relaxed than either drops or plain flats.

You could fit your existing brake levers on the bar ends: the hoods give an
extra forward grip. See what I did at
http://bikesite.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/page8.html

I cut the bars down so that my hand spread remained the same as on a drop.
The stem is 130mm. I also fitted a 9 sp cluster so have a mtb underbar
shifter mildly modified to get the lever clear of the bar end base (I flick
the upward shifts with my third finger). I left the down tube shifter for
the front mech.

Since taking these pictures I have rebound the bars with tape to remove the
cold spots at the base of the bar ends. It was quite difficult to get the
returns neat!

That looks great! Exactly what I'm after. I saw something similar on a
mid 80's Dave Roberts custom build except the levers were inverted.
Mind you, that was before the days of STI (which I've got).

--
Stuart

stuart doc said:

That looks great! Exactly what I'm after. I saw something similar on a
mid 80's Dave Roberts custom build except the levers were inverted.
Mind you, that was before the days of STI (which I've got).

To save binning the STI, maybe try and start by moving the bars up
and/or back and see if that makes them a bit friendlier for you.

Real comfort solution for touring, of course, is a recumbent tourer: no
weight on your arms at all. And much less weight in your wallet in the
immediate aftermath too! ;-/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

stuart doc said:

That looks great! Exactly what I'm after. I saw something similar on
a mid 80's Dave Roberts custom build except the levers were inverted.
Mind you, that was before the days of STI (which I've got).

To save binning the STI, maybe try and start by moving the bars up
and/or back and see if that makes them a bit friendlier for you.

Or even try a different model of drop bars, eg. 3T Morphe. It can take lots
of experimentation to get them right -- worth it if you do eventually.

~PB

Try some Mungo/Midge bars from On-One
<\url:
on-one.co.ukindex.phpOpen ↗

they look a better bet than pure drops.
regards,
daren

"stuart doc" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

That looks great! Exactly what I'm after. I saw something similar on a
mid 80's Dave Roberts custom build except the levers were inverted.

Some people invert their drops and cut the ends off which may be what you
saw. I wondered about this and experiments on scrap bars suggest turning
the levers to point forward is probably the only reasonable way to do it.
This didn't achieve what I wanted.

Which was (compared to the top position of drops)
~ to move the weight from the thumbs to the bony parts of the hands and
spread the contact area, which is the reason for the bar continuation
outboard of the corner
~ to get straighter wrists through toe-ing in the forward extensions (ie,
from the shape of the bar ends)
~ to use both brakes properly from the main riding position and not have
to reach round or under the bar (again, down to the shape of the bar ends
allowing the flared position)

Quoted message said:

Mind you, that was before the days of STI (which I've got).

STIs would be more awkward as the geometry is rather different to
traditional levers.

"Pete Biggs" <p@melonbiggs{remove fruit}.tc> wrote

Quoted message said:

Or even try a different model of drop bars, eg. 3T Morphe. It can take
lots
of experimentation to get them right -- worth it if you do eventually.

I have finally got my Morphe bar as good as it ever going to get. Since we
last communicated, I have lowered the stem and rotated the bar to make the
top horizontal. I have moved the hoods up to the limit of where I can still
reach the levers from the drop [*] and where there was a gap between the
rubber covers and metal at the notch I have packed with wood.

[*] Essential because braking from the tops is just not powerful enough.

I have finally found I can now ride the classic 'hands in the notch and
fingers on the levers position'. But I can't decide whether I have merely
reached the end of the game or whether I have achieved something that's
worthwhile. I think the former.

DavidR said:

Quoted message said:

Or even try a different model of drop bars, eg. 3T Morphe. It can
take lots
of experimentation to get them right -- worth it if you do
eventually.

I have finally got my Morphe bar as good as it ever going to get.
Since we last communicated,

Fair enough after all this time. I forgot you were the poster with Morphes
and all the problems. Good luck with straight bars.

Just goes to show that handlebars are very much a personal-preference thing.
These bars are no-where near being a limiting factor for me. I can ride for
as long as I want with no hand or arm discomfort, I only have to stop
because my backside and legs can't take any more. And braking from the
hoods is no problem for me (and isn't for most users with decent modern
brakes), by the way.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <p@melonbiggs{remove fruit}.tc> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

Quoted message said:

Or even try a different model of drop bars, eg. 3T Morphe. It can
take lots
of experimentation to get them right -- worth it if you do
eventually.

I have finally got my Morphe bar as good as it ever going to get.
Since we last communicated,

Fair enough after all this time. I forgot you were the poster with
Morphes and all the problems. Good luck with straight bars.

I still use the bike occasionally because it has a lovely responsive frame.
In truth, I rather overstate the problem because I can go 50 miles, if I
choose, even before recent adjustments. Even though the bike has a
narrower gear range than my other bikes, the bars do make riding out of the
saddle easier.

Quoted message said:

Just goes to show that handlebars are very much a personal-preference
thing.

Of course. I just think that the downsides are not given sufficient
emphasis. Why, for example, are there people that have them but never use
the drop (except to brake)? I am unable to believe that by removing the
drop there are no compromises that cannot also be removed to better suit
the sort of riding that people really do. I think I have proved it by
repositioning the brakes and altering various angles.

Quoted message said:

These bars are no-where near being a limiting factor for me. I
can ride
for as long as I want with no hand or arm discomfort, I only have to stop
because my backside and legs can't take any more.

Quoted message said:

And braking from the hoods is no problem for me (and isn't for most users
with decent modern brakes), by the way.

a) I have DP brakes and b) I know several people that agree with me.

DavidR said:

Quoted message said:

Just goes to show that handlebars are very much a personal-preference
thing.

Of course. I just think that the downsides are not given sufficient
emphasis. Why, for example, are there people that have them but never
use the drop (except to brake)?

Because either their hoods aren't comfortable enough or their brakes are not
powerful enough, or everything is not well setup enough, for their bikes and
load. Sometimes with beginners it's pure ignorance (they simply don't
realise that brake levers can be used like that).

[We're having the same old discussion as we had before now, but nevermind,
it's interesting]

Quoted message said:

I am unable to believe that by
removing the drop there are no compromises that cannot also be
removed to better suit the sort of riding that people really do. I
think I have proved it by repositioning the brakes and altering
various angles.

But you haven't invented the perfect bars. Nor has anyone else, because
there's no such thing as perfection. You haven't really proved anything
that we don't already know. You just don't like drop bars, or have /still/
failed to set them up ideally (despite much effort).

Personally, I don't use the drop position very much because I like the shape
and feel of the upper positions and hoods more -- something that no straight
bars + bar ends can replicate exactly. Important point....So I do optimise
everything for the upper positions but the drops (including brakes from
drops) are still useable. When I do use the drop position it's for better
aerodymanics when going down steep hills, etc.

But if whatever optimisation you have to do leaves the drop position
completely useless, you could simply saw everything off below the levers!
There you go, you have now invented a new type of handlebar. :-)

/snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And braking from the hoods is no problem for me (and isn't for most
users with decent modern brakes), by the way.

a) I have DP brakes and b) I know several people that agree with me.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I think the average rider on an average modern road
bike nowdays can brake sufficiently from the hoods. It's certainly possible
when everything is good. There are many reasons why this won't be the case
for everyone, it's certainly not just to do with the shape and position of
the levers. Caliper & pad quality & condition, rim type & condition, cable
routing & condition, shape & weight distribution of bike and rider -- all
these things and more come into it as well.

I accept that brake lever performance is compromised when using the hood
position -- afterall you are pushing rather than pulling it -- it's just
that, when all is well, modern brake performance is so bloody amazing that
it doesn't matter. The perfect handlebar has yet to be invented. Meanwhile
I'm very happy at the moment with my 3T Morphe drop bars and Campag Ergo
levers -- although admittedly they took loads of time and work to get them
just so.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <p@melonbiggs{remove fruit}.tc> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

Quoted message said:

Just goes to show that handlebars are very much a personal-preference
thing.

Of course. I just think that the downsides are not given sufficient
emphasis. Why, for example, are there people that have them but never
use the drop (except to brake)?

Because either their hoods aren't comfortable enough

Check. So what's the solution? There are only 2 configurations on the
market.

Quoted message said:

or their brakes are not powerful enough,
or everything is not well setup enough, for their bikes
and load.

Yes, it's very difficult. So you get someone like me that thinks "the drop
is a waste of space for the most part so lets get rid of it and improve
what's left" [1] or the "I use the drop a lot, so I accept the bars have
other limitations" [2] or the "I don't use the drop but the bike came with
them, I have been using them a long time and have adjusted to them" [3]

[1] see below
[2] I ride with a dedicated droppie whom I have never seen using the hoods.
He just switches between stem/corner and drop.
[3] My view is that the bar should fit the person, not the other way round
but there are a lot of people that are reluctant to use an Allen key.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes with beginners it's pure ignorance (they simply don't
realise that brake levers can be used like that).

I really doubt that

Quoted message said:

[We're having the same old discussion as we had before now, but
nevermind, it's interesting]

But you haven't invented the perfect bars.

I don't claim this but see [1]. The drop gets in the way because bend radii
dictate certain dimensions and angles. Similarly, the brake is where it is
to avoid interference, not because it is ideal. My thinking goes that if I
use the drop 20% of the time (probably much less, in reality) then it
implies the parts I use for 80% of the time are compromised. Instead, how
about being comfortable 80% of the time and miserable for only 20?

If a bolt on extension existed that was a suitable shape for the
configuration in my photos, I might have them. In other words, I am not
against a drop per se, but I think one piece designs are fundamentally
flawed. Of course, a multi part design is heavier which introduces
issues that wouldn't suit some riders.

Quoted message said:

Nor has anyone else, because
there's no such thing as perfection. You haven't really proved anything
that we don't already know. You just don't like drop bars, or have
/still/ failed to set them up ideally (despite much effort).

I disagree because compromises are totally unavoidable in a one piece
design.

Quoted message said:

When I do use the drop position it's for
better aerodymanics when going down steep hills, etc.

🙂 Ride north of Reading and there are not many opportunities to ride heads
down on hills. At least, on single track roads with short sight lines, the
usefulness of aero drag and an upright position definitely outweigh other
opportunities.

Quoted message said:

But if whatever optimisation you have to do leaves the drop position
completely useless, you could simply saw everything off below the levers!
There you go, you have now invented a new type of handlebar. :-)

Actually that doesn't work and would be dangerous...

But people have flipped them over after cutting them. As I said earlier,
that is not equivalent to what I have done.

Or something else I have seen: fit an adjustable stem and set to maximum
tilt. So the riding position is still quite upright. Looks odd but because
the hands are below the hoods and the bar has turned down, a grip doesn't
require a bent wrist. The hand also has proper coverage of the brake levers
and won't have pressure on the soft bits.

Quoted message said:

/snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And braking from the hoods is no problem for me (and isn't for most
users with decent modern brakes), by the way.

a) I have DP brakes and b) I know several people that agree with me.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I think the average rider on an average modern road
bike nowdays can brake sufficiently from the hoods. It's certainly
possible when everything is good. There are many reasons why this won't
be the case for everyone, it's certainly not just to do with the shape
and position of the levers. Caliper & pad quality & condition, rim type
& condition, cable routing & condition, shape & weight distribution of
bike and rider -- all these things and more come into it as well.

Quoted message said:

I accept that brake lever performance is compromised when using the hood
position -- afterall you are pushing rather than pulling it --

Aha! One of those thoroughly nasty, nasty compromises.

Quoted message said:

it's just
that, when all is well, modern brake performance is so bloody amazing
that it doesn't matter.

People I have spoken to in person that have said that tend to have fairly
large hands.

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile
I'm very happy at the moment with my 3T Morphe drop bars and Campag Ergo
levers -- although admittedly they took loads of time and work to get
them just so.

See [3] above. It is a reason why I don't think the downsides are given
enough emphasis. My design came from a whim and it worked straight away
(even if it took time to make a workmanlike finish from parts not designed
for the configuration).

If you decided to dispense with the drop do you really think it
couldn't be improved on (subject to any part you might dream up
being available)?

DavidR said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Just goes to show that handlebars are very much a
> personal-preference thing.

Of course. I just think that the downsides are not given sufficient
emphasis. Why, for example, are there people that have them but
never use the drop (except to brake)?

Because either their hoods aren't comfortable enough

Check. So what's the solution? There are only 2 configurations on the
market.

I didn't think we were just talking about the current market. Some people
are still riding around on Weinmann crappo levers, for instance. A lot if
not most users find modern Campag Ergos and Shimano STI hoods comfortable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or their brakes are not powerful enough,
or everything is not well setup enough, for their bikes
and load.

Yes, it's very difficult. So you get someone like me that thinks "the
drop is a waste of space for the most part so lets get rid of it and
improve what's left" [1] or the "I use the drop a lot, so I accept
the bars have other limitations" [2] or the "I don't use the drop but
the bike came with them, I have been using them a long time and have
adjusted to them" [3]

[1] see below
[2] I ride with a dedicated droppie whom I have never seen using the
hoods. He just switches between stem/corner and drop.

If he doesn't have to, it could be just preference or habit. Watch the pro
racers. Some use the hoods quite a lot, some hardly ever. That doesn't
mean the drop bar is a poor design. It means it's such a versatile design
that different people can use it in different ways.

Quoted message said:

[3] My view is that the bar should fit the person, not the other way
round but there are a lot of people that are reluctant to use an
Allen key.

No one bar is going to fit everyone. An awful lot of designs would be
needed if no or little adjustment was required! Even bog standard straight
bars need quite a bit of adjustment for serious use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sometimes with beginners it's pure ignorance (they simply don't
realise that brake levers can be used like that).

I really doubt that

Evidence from newbies posting here has confirmed it's true. Also, it's
understandable that people should be reluctant to try the hoods again when
they're had previous bad experience with poorer brake levers and brakes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But you haven't invented the perfect bars.

I don't claim this but see [1]. The drop gets in the way because bend
radii dictate certain dimensions and angles. Similarly, the brake is
where it is to avoid interference, not because it is ideal.

But that's a great feature--it's very good to avoid interference. What we
have is the result of decades of trial and error. It's close enough to
ideal for me to like it.

Quoted message said:

My
thinking goes that if I use the drop 20% of the time (probably much
less, in reality) then it implies the parts I use for 80% of the time
are compromised. Instead, how about being comfortable 80% of the time
and miserable for only 20?

Yes you do need something different if you are miserable for 80% of the
time! I'm not as I happen to find the result of the compromises
comfortable, and I'm hardly alone in this.

Quoted message said:

If a bolt on extension existed that was a suitable shape for the
configuration in my photos, I might have them. In other words, I am
not against a drop per se, but I think one piece designs are
fundamentally flawed. Of course, a multi part design is heavier which
introduces issues that wouldn't suit some riders.

Quoted message said:

Nor has anyone else, because
there's no such thing as perfection. You haven't really proved
anything that we don't already know. You just don't like drop bars,
or have /still/ failed to set them up ideally (despite much effort).

I disagree because compromises are totally unavoidable in a one piece
design.

Compromises are /always/ unavoidable. A multi-piece design would cause more
obstructions and restrictions of movement when wanting to slide from one
hand position to another, or slightly alter the position. The more bits
there are, the more bits there are to get in the way, and more room is taken
up for the attachments for the bits. I call that compromise.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I do use the drop position it's for
better aerodymanics when going down steep hills, etc.

🙂 Ride north of Reading and there are not many opportunities to ride
heads down on hills. At least, on single track roads with short sight
lines, the usefulness of aero drag and an upright position definitely
outweigh other opportunities.

I was riding some single track roads in Bucks last week, on the drops for
some of the twisty short steep descents. It was after dark as well. And I
didn't know the roads at all. The idea that you need aero drag and can't
adequately see where you're going from the drops is garbage.

a) I'm grateful for the drop position even though I only use it for a small
amount of the time. It's quality time!!

b) I would like drop bars even if I never used the drop position at all.

/snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I accept that brake lever performance is compromised when using the
hood position -- afterall you are pushing rather than pulling it --

Aha! One of those thoroughly nasty, nasty compromises.

I think it is the /only/ serious compromise, but still one that doesn't
matter when the calipers work very well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's just
that, when all is well, modern brake performance is so bloody amazing
that it doesn't matter.

People I have spoken to in person that have said that tend to have
fairly large hands.

I rarely need XL gloves. But I appreciate it's more difficult for those
with small hands. (I'm not just talking about the levers there, by the way,
I mean the whole brake system).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile
I'm very happy at the moment with my 3T Morphe drop bars and Campag
Ergo levers -- although admittedly they took loads of time and work
to get them just so.

See [3] above. It is a reason why I don't think the downsides are
given enough emphasis.

Quoted message said:

My design came from a whim and it worked
straight away (even if it took time to make a workmanlike finish from
parts not designed for the configuration).

[ http://bikesite.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/page8.html ]

It's interesting but I can't imagine preferring it, from the look of it. It
would compromise what I like to do. You're replacing one set of compromises
for another. May be fine for you but will not be for everyone who doesn't
like/need a drop position.

Quoted message said:

If you decided to dispense with the drop do you really think it
couldn't be improved on (subject to any part you might dream up
being available)?

It's got to be possible but I haven't yet thought of a design I would
prefer. Meanwhile, the drop bar will continue to evolve and improve. Some
people, though, will prefer the odd revolutionary idea that comes along. It
/does/ largely come down to personal preference. Different people with
different minds and bodies like to do different things with their hands and
bodies.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, DavidR

(') said:

"Pete Biggs" <p@melonbiggs{remove fruit}.tc> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

Of course. I just think that the downsides are not given sufficient
emphasis. Why, for example, are there people that have them but never
use the drop (except to brake)?

Because either their hoods aren't comfortable enough

Check. So what's the solution? There are only 2 configurations on the
market.

Not strictly true.

Older Campagnolo Ergopowers have a different hood shape - more pointy at
the horn, more rounded on the top - than the current generation
(although you could argue that these are no longer 'on the market' -
except the second-hand market - and in any case they don't work with
current-generation 9 and 10 speed deraileurs).

Every different groupset in the Shimano range seems to have a different
hood design, and they change from year to year.

And finally, you don't need to use integrated gear/brake levers - if you
use downtube or bar-end shifters, you can choose from

Cambagnolo brake levers (similar to Ergo design, but narrower)
Cane Creek SCR-5 (flattish top, medium width, rounded horn)
Dia-Compe 287 (narrow, with significant 'horn'😉
Shimano R400 and R600 (rounded, significant 'horn'😉

and probably others; and that's just for drop bars.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; So, before proceeding with definitive screwing, choose the
;; position most congenital.
-- instructions for fitting bicycle handlebars

in message <[email hidden]>, DavidR

(') said:

Quoted message said:

[We're having the same old discussion as we had before now, but
nevermind, it's interesting]

But you haven't invented the perfect bars.

I don't claim this but see [1]. The drop gets in the way because bend
radii dictate certain dimensions and angles. Similarly, the brake is
where it is to avoid interference, not because it is ideal. My thinking
goes that if I use the drop 20% of the time (probably much less, in
reality) then it implies the parts I use for 80% of the time are
compromised. Instead, how about being comfortable 80% of the time and
miserable for only 20?

If you watch racing cyclists in action for any length of time, you notice
that they use the drops considerably less than 20% of the time.
Nevertheless they've all got them; and when they really need to sprint,
they all use them. Either the UCI rigidly dictates the shape of
handlebars (which knowing the UCI isn't at all impossible), or drop bars
are the shape they are because they have evolved over 100 years into as
near the ideal shape for a diamond-frame bicycle ridden fast on the road
at it is possible to get. Similarly, if there were any racing advantage
to be had from any other brake lever configuration, we would have it by
now.

Of course, there is the 'other' race-evolved configuration, which is
still evolving, the batwing style bar used for time-trials and
triathlons. This is, of course, UCI banned from mass start races,
allegedly because of poor control; it clearly also works. But instead of
getting rid of the 'drops' and keeping the 'tops', this gets rid of the
tops and substitutes an aerobar. Again, if any other bar configuration
was better for time trialling we'd have seen it by now - the time
triallists will try anything to shave tenths of a second.

So I'm completely unpersuaded that it is possible to come up with an
improved handlebar design for road bikes which loses the 'drop' of the
drop bar; if it were so it would have been done. Of course this is all
racing stuff, but the racing peloton need to cover literally thousands
of miles at speed. Their bikes have to be as comfortable as it is
possible to make them or it would not be possible at all. Any redesign
of the diamond frame road bike which offers an improvement in comfort
over the 'racing' design must inevitably involve a significant cost in
speed and in the ratio of speed to effort, and no-one who cycles any
serious distance wants that.

Of course, the real solution if you're looking for comfort with speed on
the road is probably to dump the diamond frame.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; my other religion is Emacs

in message <[email hidden]>, DavidR

(') said:

Quoted message said:

it's just
that, when all is well, modern brake performance is so bloody amazing
that it doesn't matter.

People I have spoken to in person that have said that tend to have
fairly large hands.

I have /extremely/ small hands - smaller than a woman I know who is four
foot ten. I say that. I can lift the back wheel from the hoods
(Campagnolo Centaur Ergopower).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us
;; many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.
;; Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
;; Tom Stoppard, Artist Descending A Staircase

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

('p@melonbiggs{remove fruit}.tc') said:

Quoted message said:

🙂 Ride north of Reading and there are not many opportunities to ride
heads down on hills. At least, on single track roads with short sight
lines, the usefulness of aero drag and an upright position definitely
outweigh other opportunities.

I was riding some single track roads in Bucks last week, on the drops
for
some of the twisty short steep descents. It was after dark as well.
And I
didn't know the roads at all. The idea that you need aero drag and
can't adequately see where you're going from the drops is garbage.

Errrmmmm... can we have some terminological definitions around here,
please? In the US, and increasingly among mountain bikers this side of
the pond, 'singletrack' means just that - a path or track with only one
wheel rut, too narrow for a four wheeled vehicle. In Scotland, 'single
track' means a road wide enough for only one four wheeled vehicle at a
time, usually with regular passing places into which one can pull to
allow oncoming traffic to get past. When two cars meet on a blind corner
on such a road, one of them has to reverse back to the nearest passing
place.

Do you really have single track road with passing places in Bucks and
Berks, or does this word have yet another definition?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and I found when I looked that we had run out
of copper roove nails.

Simon Brooke said:

In Scotland, 'single
track' means a road wide enough for only one four wheeled vehicle at a
time, usually with regular passing places into which one can pull to
allow oncoming traffic to get past. When two cars meet on a blind corner
on such a road, one of them has to reverse back to the nearest passing
place.

Ahem.....and in the rest of the UK too

Quoted message said:

Do you really have single track road with passing places in Bucks and
Berks, or does this word have yet another definition?

Yes they do and in the rest of England and in Wales and in Northern
Ireland. I refer the honourable gentleman to rule 133 of the Highway Code.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon