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Overtraining? Racing & Weight Training

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Cycling Training
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29 September 2005
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KeSs
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  1. Hey,

    Recently I got a job at the local gym and I have had access to a ton of information as well as weight lifting epuipment. My road racing season ended last week so I decided to start some weight lifting. Since I am also getting ready for the upcoming cyclocross/mtb season I have no been lifting with my legs. As of right now I only do weight lifting that involves muscles waist up. After reading about how much to lift I beleive I selected a good weight range. I so 10 reps, 3 sets and the weight is that so on the 10th rep I reach muscle fatigue.

    Last week I was riding my road bike and lifting on the same days. Bike in the AM, lift in the PM. However, last Wednesday I did a 60 mile ride and lifted that night. I then lifted on Friday but didnt ride and I felt good. Saturday I didnt life but I went on short bike ride (20 miles). I felt pretty drained considering my shortest race is 20 miles. I took sunday off. I didnt ride monday and i lifted monday (felt good). Today I decided to start training for cyclocross so I did a circuit around my neighborhood park. I didnt feel 100%. Its not that I bonked or anything like that. Its just that I didnt feel how I should of felt considering I am coming off a very sucessful racing season. Was it because I am overtraining? I headed to work around 5pm and felt EXHAUSTED till about 8pm then I seemed to get a 2nd wind. So i decided to do a light lift load (only 2 sets). And now I feel fine.....
    Any ideas as to whats going on?

    -Sam

  2. I do both and my expertise is in weight training.

    IMO - doing a 60 mile ride and then weight train that evening will more than likely lead to overtraining, fatigue, burnout, illness or injury at some point. Even guys (myself included) and girls that use PED's cannot sustain that type of training for a long period of time. Even though 3 sets of 10 reps is not a lot of volume it will still cause enough trauma to the body that will require recovery which is compounding to the required recovery needed for the cycling training.

    There comes a point of decision on what you want to do.
    What is more important to me kind of question.

    I have been juggling both, but very carefully staggering the two and I am doing both not as competitive status, but as recreational status. I have been skirting the line of recovery while training drug free. It is a tough thing to do and requires a 24 hour focus on a solid stradegy, training, nutrition and rest.

    Best wishes

  3. KeSs said:

    Hey,

    Recently I got a job at the local gym and I have had access to a ton of information as well as weight lifting epuipment. My road racing season ended last week so I decided to start some weight lifting. Since I am also getting ready for the upcoming cyclocross/mtb season I have no been lifting with my legs. As of right now I only do weight lifting that involves muscles waist up. After reading about how much to lift I beleive I selected a good weight range. I so 10 reps, 3 sets and the weight is that so on the 10th rep I reach muscle fatigue.

    Last week I was riding my road bike and lifting on the same days. Bike in the AM, lift in the PM. However, last Wednesday I did a 60 mile ride and lifted that night. I then lifted on Friday but didnt ride and I felt good. Saturday I didnt life but I went on short bike ride (20 miles). I felt pretty drained considering my shortest race is 20 miles. I took sunday off. I didnt ride monday and i lifted monday (felt good). Today I decided to start training for cyclocross so I did a circuit around my neighborhood park. I didnt feel 100%. Its not that I bonked or anything like that. Its just that I didnt feel how I should of felt considering I am coming off a very sucessful racing season. Was it because I am overtraining? I headed to work around 5pm and felt EXHAUSTED till about 8pm then I seemed to get a 2nd wind. So i decided to do a light lift load (only 2 sets). And now I feel fine.....
    Any ideas as to whats going on?

    -Sam

    Althought RST does not advocate strength training for improving endurance cycling performance (search other threads for tons of info), there is no reason you can not approach things the way Felt_Rider has proposed. Judging by what you have written however, it sounds like you have jumped into things much to quickly - You can gain the majority of strength adaptations from only 2 days/week of training in the gym, especially if it is a novel exercise for you; going right into 10rep fatiguing sets is not appropriate; and whether or not you took enough time to recover from your road season is in question.

  4. KeSs said:

    Hey,

    Recently I got a job at the local gym and I have had access to a ton of information as well as weight lifting epuipment. My road racing season ended last week so I decided to start some weight lifting. Since I am also getting ready for the upcoming cyclocross/mtb season I have no been lifting with my legs. As of right now I only do weight lifting that involves muscles waist up. After reading about how much to lift I believe I selected a good weight range. I so 10 reps, 3 sets and the weight is that so on the 10th rep I reach muscle fatigue.

    Last week I was riding my road bike and lifting on the same days. Bike in the AM, lift in the PM. However, last Wednesday I did a 60 mile ride and lifted that night. I then lifted on Friday but didnt ride and I felt good. Saturday I didnt life but I went on short bike ride (20 miles). I felt pretty drained considering my shortest race is 20 miles. I took sunday off. I didnt ride monday and i lifted monday (felt good). Today I decided to start training for cyclocross so I did a circuit around my neighborhood park. I didnt feel 100%. Its not that I bonked or anything like that. Its just that I didnt feel how I should of felt considering I am coming off a very sucessful racing season. Was it because I am overtraining? I headed to work around 5pm and felt EXHAUSTED till about 8pm then I seemed to get a 2nd wind. So i decided to do a light lift load (only 2 sets). And now I feel fine.....
    Any ideas as to whats going on?

    -Sam

    I'm currently recovering from symptoms of overtraining so I'm going to offer up a little annectodal advice on the topic.

    Having been cycling for many months (steadily since June 3rd) I started lifting some weights on July 6th. I wasn't on a strict schedule and if I felt tired or fatigued I wouldn't lift that day but rather save it for when I felt up to the task. By August 12th I was down sick. Had chronic fatigue, a sinus infection, a touch of bronchitis, had a high resting pulse, was depressed, and was very irritable!

    After a week off I felt pretty good for a change but decided to cut way back on cycling and focus primarily on weights. I'd already blown any chances of setting any personal records in September due to the problems above and wasn't willing and didn't have the drive to push hard enough to achieve them.

    On August 19th I started back but this time I only did weights with 20 minutes of fast pedaling after the weight workout. These cycling sessions on the trainer weren't hard but due to lifting weights first my HR was fairly high for the amount of effort I was putting in. By September 11th I was sick again. This time I had the same symptoms but worse (some days I slept 13 hours a day :eek: )! Had a resting pulse rate between 75 - 80 BPM! When I was lying down it felt like my heart was beating hard enough to come out of my chest. I could feel my pulse through my legs and hands. This time I knew I had done it big time. Keep in mind that this was only doing 3 to 4 sets per bodypart, not per exercise.

    After 2 1/2 weeks of complete rest I'm starting to feel quite a bit better. My ambient pulse is back down to the mid-60's (had been 58 - 60 when cycling regularly). I'm now ready to start training something easy, such as arms, but am not going to add in quads, back or any other taxing bodyparts for a few more weeks and then I'm going to be conservative. Also, I don't plan on doing any cycling above 70% maxHR for 20 min at a time and I'm not going to add that for another month (maybe two).

    Mixing weight training and cycling is more than just a little difficult. It's extremely difficult and probably isn't worth it. Both activities will suffer because they can't be done at an optimum level. Unless you're very healthy, young and have a remarkable immune system it's more than likely that you'll start having real problems after just a few weeks of adding the new exercise.

    These articles are written for weight lifters but they can apply to anyone who is pushing their personal limits:
    http://www.strengthcats.com/SHBovertraining.htm

    http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=35

    http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=34

    http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=33

    I didn't have to do a search for them as I already had them pulled up in Firefox tabs and was reading them when I saw this post.

  5. Wanted to add some things to my last post. Seems like the bouts of chronic fatigue I've had were around the same time as allergy season. These bouts of fatigue felt like I had the flu (sinus drainage, sneezing, wheezing, dry cough, fatigue) but I didn't have any fever or body aches. Also, it seems there was very little warning when I became ill. One day I would be riding along feeling great and doing a personal best Time Trial and within a few days I'd be in bed feeling like total [censored]. I wouldn't have any of the typical "lowered performance" associated with overtraining. In fact I'd be at my best! Strange.

    1st bout: May 28th - June 9th - no weights then but had allergy symptoms and had recently done a couple of personal bests in 50 miler and 30 min TT. That may have helped wear me down.

    2nd bout: Aug 11th - August 25th - had started weights 5 weeks before this and had recently had personal best 60 min and 30 min TT within a week before.

    3rd bout: Sept 18th - Sept 27th (by far the worst) - was weight training 3 out of 5 days per week and doing 20 min of cycling at 85% MaxHR after weight workout. Total workout time was under 45 minutes but it was intense.

    Also like to add that the term overtraining gets thrown around quit a bit. Do it myself as it's a term everyone recognizes. Here are a couple of definitions by Dr. Fred Hatfield that may clear up some ambiguity.

    Overreaching: An accumulation of training and/or non-training stress resulting in a short-term decrement in performance capacity with or without related physiological and psychological signs and symptoms of overtraining in which restoration of performance capacity may take from several days to several weeks.

    Overtraining: An accumulation of training and/or non-training stress resulting in a long-term decrement in performance capacity with or without related physiological and psychological signs and symptoms of overtraining in which restoration of performance capacity may take from several weeks to several months.

  6. Doctor Morbius said:

    .....Also like to add that the term overtraining gets thrown around quit a bit. Do it myself as it's a term everyone recognizes. Here are a couple of definitions by Dr. Fred Hatfield that may clear up some ambiguity.
    .......

    Thanks for sharing that interesting story. BTW, I agree with you as for the overtraining word being overused.

    It's hard to figure out how much fatigue can be considered normal and how much can be considered... well.. to much.

    Just about all the overtraining stories I've heard over the years, include symptoms of sickness (flu, depression, insomnia and so on). But it's true, DM, the real cases of overtraining are not easily solved. It takes weeks, if not months, before things get back to normal.

    If I may use your term DM, Overreaching is not a good thing neither, specially when it is not required. One has to go with the flow. And that is to try to acheive the best possible result without overreaching to much.

    Last year, I had this issue with my heart. It was a bit funny. While resting, doing nothing but potato coutch, my heart would go very very hard for a couple of beats, once every 5 minutes or maybe even less. In french we call that : palpitations. After a week or two, I started to worry (It would do that all the time, at home, at work etc). I just took a week off, and things got back to normal. I was not overtrained, but certainly getting there.

    Generaly, I try to accumulate no more that 2 weeks of fatigue, before taking an easy week. But all I do, is "serious" but "recreationnal" training.

    And what about the other members of this forum? How much fatigue do you accumulate before taking some easy time?

  7. I'm riding 200+ miles per week and weight training twice per week. I'm doing fine, and have it set up on a schedule so I don't get overbonked. Here's what I do:
    Monday- Weights, recovery ride (12 mile commute to and from class on MTB)
    Teusday- local race ride (40+ miles... hard tempo efforts and easy spinning mix)
    Wednesday- At the gym, but jogging on treadmill or playing basketball, and then 12 mile commute to and from class on MTB
    Thursday- Complete rest day
    Friday- Weights, ride (35-45 miles)
    Saturday- 60+ miles riding
    Sunday- 60+ miles riding

    So, as you can see the gym days do overlap with cycling days, but I've got pretty good rest days in there, too

  8. AmpedCycle said:

    I'm riding 200+ miles per week and weight training twice per week. I'm doing fine, and have it set up on a schedule so I don't get overbonked. Here's what I do:
    Monday- Weights, recovery ride (12 mile commute to and from class on MTB)
    Teusday- local race ride (40+ miles... hard tempo efforts and easy spinning mix)
    Wednesday- At the gym, but jogging on treadmill or playing basketball, and then 12 mile commute to and from class on MTB
    Thursday- Complete rest day
    Friday- Weights, ride (35-45 miles)
    Saturday- 60+ miles riding
    Sunday- 60+ miles riding

    So, as you can see the gym days do overlap with cycling days, but I've got pretty good rest days in there, too

    It takes weeks to months for the fatigue to accumulate. Also, how much fatigue develops depends on how much microtrauma you are inflicting while lifting. Also, everyone's different. What is overtraining for one person is a walk through the park for another. You may not experience any of the problems associated with it while others would.

    Age also plays a big roll. I could do 10 to 15 sets per bodypart of moderate to heavy weight when I was in my early to mid-20's and still go out drinking and whoring and get up in time for work or classes and go out and do it all over again. The 80's were a great time for a single guy! 😄

  9. SolarEnergy said:

    Thanks for sharing that interesting story. BTW, I agree with you as for the overtraining word being overused.

    It's hard to figure out how much fatigue can be considered normal and how much can be considered... well.. to much.

    Just about all the overtraining stories I've heard over the years, include symptoms of sickness (flu, depression, insomnia and so on). But it's true, DM, the real cases of overtraining are not easily solved. It takes weeks, if not months, before things get back to normal.

    If I may use your term DM, Overreaching is not a good thing neither, specially when it is not required. One has to go with the flow. And that is to try to acheive the best possible result without overreaching to much.

    The trick is to walk the fine between not doing too much and not doing enough. I sure haven't figured it out. What I thought was not too much was in fact too much and it dropped on me like a ton of bricks. By the time I realized it was too much it was too late.

    Quoted post said:

    Last year, I had this issue with my heart. It was a bit funny. While resting, doing nothing but potato coutch, my heart would go very very hard for a couple of beats, once every 5 minutes or maybe even less. In french we call that : palpitations. After a week or two, I started to worry (It would do that all the time, at home, at work etc). I just took a week off, and things got back to normal. I was not overtrained, but certainly getting there.

    That also recently happened to me when my resting HR was 80 BPM. My heart beat was very erratic. I thought I had an arrythmia. Scared me too as my dad had that a couple of years ago. I was going to schedule a doctor's appontment and have an EKG or something but without health insurance it would have cost a flippin' fortune so I didn't go. With a couple of weeks of rest my heart seemed to get back to normal on it's own. I'm going to start monitoring it much more closely now, that's for sure!

    Quoted post said:

    Generaly, I try to accumulate no more that 2 weeks of fatigue, before taking an easy week. But all I do, is "serious" but "recreational" training.

    I'm a recreational/fitness rider too and as such I don't know how important 2 to 3 weeks of hard rides followed by a recovery week is for blokes like us. Perhaps the purposefully induced fatigue is best left for the racing crowd in the first place.

    We rec riders don't really need to risk pushing ourselves like that and frankly, I'm getting tired of the repeated bouts of bronchitis and sinusitis. It's taking it's toll. It's forcing me to rethink my paradigm in favor of less is more. You would never have heard me say that when I was a young guy. The problem is my body just doesn't respond the way it used to. Kind of sucks actually. 🙁

  10. This is a "my opinion" statement about my experience in training and finding thresholds or limitations that can lead to fatigue, injury or illness.

    I believe we all know that training is "typically" progressive especially for competitors. It is a building process or a detraining process. One may either be going up or going down and this can be so minute that one may actually feel as if they are in a maintenance status, but it is my belief that you are either progressing or detraining to some degree.

    However, some of the most common mistakes I see from many unseasoned athletes is the over eagerness to progress and not taking the incremental steps upward to the peak condition. I can only speak from strength sports, but I know that the steps to reaching peak conditions start with an offseason, but it is when preseason hits that things begin to change. A powerlifter that has a goal of squatting 800 lbs. at a competition that has never squatted 800 before has to work up to it over many many months. The training is cycled allowing for these incremental steps upward in weight. The focus is to reach a peak condition and yet the incremental steps are there to reduce injury. There is nothing more demoralizing to an athlete to spend months of training and sacrifice only to get a serious injury or illness in the last few weeks. So the steps have to be incremental and the principle applies to almost everyone.

    Keeping a diary was probably one of the most helpful tools that I reffered to from one year to the next. I would look at the previous year and make adjustments always hoping to progress. By keeping a diary I would begin to determine how much load I could put on my body before it would fail or succumb to injury or illness. The point of most athletes is pushing (incrementally) the limit upward to find that threshold. Over a period of years of intense training your body will adjust to handle the load, but even then there are limits that have to be respected.

    The picture of this upward progression is like a stock investment on a graph. Hopefully if you were to chart your efforts and your gains the trend would be an upward trend, but the looking at the graph there are some small dips along the way. Those dips are the bouts where the athlete pushed a little too far and fell prey to illness or injury and there was hopefully only a small downward trend on the graph. Yet the overall trend is upward toward the peak condition.

    Some athletes do not progress enough and sometimes that is related to fear of pushing that threshold. A few months back I had a very serious crash on a road ride that required several visits to the doctor to have a hematoma drained and yet I never stopped riding despite the pain and the injury. I did not want to let my mind have time to let fear set in and yet I am still a little aprehensive in fast declines on winding roads. I have torn/strained muscle fibers 5 separate times in my quads from training legs over the past 5 years. I can still remember the last one it felt like paper ripping inside my quad and it took 6 weeks to recover. It took me about 6 months to overcome the mental fear of getting back into a progressive training routine. I see many athletes that have too much fear of pushing the threshold because something happened to them or someone they knew and now they don't push hard enough to keep up with competition. It is a mental challenge to go through the burning pain, open wounds, chronic illness or other negative impacts, but the challenge is to mentally rise above and push yourself up to that threshold and then push that threshold incrementally upward.

    Knowledge is key and like Dr. Morbius is finding that pushing that threshold has a slight "temporary" downward trend he can now set a mental marker that he knows his threshold and now incrementally push that limit as his body and mind adapts and become ready for the next upward step.

    Knowledge for the athlete is knowing what their body is capable of doing at that specific moment in time and knowing how to use tools and resources to accomplish those goals. What are those tools and resources?

    A strategic plan - a guideline that is planned out before preseason starts. This doesn't mean that the plan is rock solid. Sometimes the plan has to be tweaked in the middle of training if results are not progressing upward.

    Those plans typically have these features (only a few listed)

    coaching/trainers/consultants/honest knowledgeable friends - for constructive critism and guidance in things that you may overlook.

    Nutrition - key to recovery

    Rest - key to recovery

    Injury Treatment - annnoyances like tendinitis may need ice treatment to allow continued training despite the annoyance.

    I could continue with my opinion and observations, but there is just too much.
    To summarize my thoughts the athlete needs to absent of fear in pushing the limits, but not so eager that the steps are too big that there is a risk of serious injury or down time.

    One last statement is that most athletes do need to have a down time or off season, but that creates a whole lot more discussion as to why and how.

    disclaimer: all of this is just my opinion and obeservation through the years of training myself and others in strength related sports.

  11. Doctor Morbius said:

    ......I'm a recreational/fitness rider too and as such I don't know how important 2 to 3 weeks of hard rides followed by a recovery week is for blokes like us. Perhaps the purposefully induced fatigue is best left for the racing crowd in the first place.....

    I agree. Carrying fatigue over a couple of weeks before resting only serves one purpose : Greater overcompensation. This is totally useless for someone that is improving anyway without doing it.

    Could become interesting to get over a plateau. But as Felt_Rider says, when we get a plateau we first need to establish the cause. Because sometimes, plateaus occurs when you train to much. Then, training even more may take you into a endless loop of fatigue and poor performances.

    Me I carefully do it, because I start competing next year in triathlon events, and in 3 years in pure cycling events. And I must admit that I’m a bit behind schedule.

    Doctor Morbius said:

    ......
    We rec riders don't really need to risk pushing ourselves like that and frankly, I'm getting tired of the repeated bouts of bronchitis and sinusitis. It's taking it's toll. It's forcing me to rethink my paradigm in favor of less is more. You would never have heard me say that when I was a young guy. The problem is my body just doesn't respond the way it used to. Kind of sucks actually.

    Yeah but hey! You know, when Felt_Rider says that knowledge is an important key to success in training? I think that’s what he is referring to.

    Everyone that trains with passion, for rec or competition, is exposed to reach his/her limits.

    When people argue that Weight Lifting is good for cycling, they should keep in mind that it can also be very bad, both for cycling, for weight lifting and health condition in general. As far as I’m concerned, I always ask myself if it can be bad, before asking myself if it can be good.

    Felt_Rider said:

    ..... However, some of the most common mistakes I see from many unseasoned athletes is the over eagerness to progress and not taking the incremental steps upward to the peak condition.

    That's also a common mistake I've seen, specially in triathlon.

    Felt_Rider said:

    ..... Keeping a diary was probably one of the most helpful tools that I reffered to from one year to the next. I would look at the previous year and make adjustments always hoping to progress. By keeping a diary I would begin to determine how much load I could put on my body before it would fail or succumb to injury or illness.

    I don't do it, but I definitely should.

    Felt_Rider said:

    .....
    Knowledge is key and like Dr. Morbius is finding that pushing that threshold has a slight "temporary" downward trend he can now set a mental marker that he knows his threshold and now incrementally push that limit as his body and mind adapts and become ready for the next upward step.

    I hate to say that, but that's trial and error. Every athlete within a group should have an individual training plan/log.

    Cheers guys, it's always intersting to read your posts.

  12. Thanks Solar
    I also enjoy hearing what other competitors do for training and motivation.

  13. Thanks for the stuff guys. I have decided to stop doing weights while still racing

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