Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy

Quoted message said:

Subject: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" M.a.r.kP.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

this is sorta scarey in itself

first it says

Quoted message said:

patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
prevent heart attacks.

PREVENT heart attacks

then it says

Quoted message said:

To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented heart
attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

so....how can you PREVENT an event that has already occurred??

And likely after the heart attack,,conventional would have done SOMETHING...ie
thrombolytics,,angioplasty..stent..maybe open heart..

so THEN if one has chelation...WHAT would be proven??

the "event" already occurred...conventional did what is standard..

it would be FAR fairer to be recruiting folks with NO heart attack,,but be at
risk..and have angiographic proof that coronary arteries were in trouble..

THEN do chelation...THEN repeat angiogram

the way it is set up...this will NOT prove chelation did or did not do
anything....

think about it..
hawki.....

You can have many heart attacks.
Anth

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" M.a.r.kP.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

this is sorta scarey in itself

first it says

Quoted message said:

patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
prevent heart attacks.

PREVENT heart attacks

then it says

Quoted message said:

To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented

heart

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

so....how can you PREVENT an event that has already occurred??

And likely after the heart attack,,conventional would have done

SOMETHING...ie

Quoted message said:

thrombolytics,,angioplasty..stent..maybe open heart..

so THEN if one has chelation...WHAT would be proven??

the "event" already occurred...conventional did what is standard..

it would be FAR fairer to be recruiting folks with NO heart attack,,but be

at

Quoted message said:

risk..and have angiographic proof that coronary arteries were in trouble..

THEN do chelation...THEN repeat angiogram

the way it is set up...this will NOT prove chelation did or did not do
anything....

think about it..
hawki.....

If chelation has been thoroughly 'debunked' then why are 'researchers' still
adamant in wanting to test it?
Doesn't make sense.
Anth

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy

2 hours, 32 minutes ago Add Health - HealthDay to My Yahoo!

FRIDAY, May 14 (HealthDayNews) -- Researchers are looking for cardiac
patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
prevent heart attacks.

Yahoo! Health
Have questions about your health?
Find answers here.

Chelation, an alternative form of therapy, involves the intravenous

infusion

Quoted message said:

of disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, combined with high doses of
antioxidant vitamin and mineral supplements.

Doctors with Rush University Medical Center believe the combination of
calcium, zinc, cadmium, manganese, iron, and copper may reduce
artery-clogging calcium deposits.

Once enrolled in the study, patients will receive 30 weekly infusions of
either the chelation solution or a placebo, followed by 10 additional
infusion sessions every other week.

To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented heart
attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

chelation

Quoted message said:

therapy within the last five years or have a history of allergic reaction

to

Quoted message said:

chelation therapy are not eligible.

To enroll, call (888) 644-6226. More information about the national Trial

to

Quoted message said:

Assess Chelation Therapy can be found here.

More information

The American Heart Association (news - web sites) has more about chelation
therapy for heart disease.

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" M.a.r.kP.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

this is sorta scarey in itself

first it says

Quoted message said:

patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
prevent heart attacks.

PREVENT heart attacks

then it says

Quoted message said:

To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented

heart

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

so....how can you PREVENT an event that has already occurred??

And likely after the heart attack,,conventional would have done

SOMETHING...ie

Quoted message said:

thrombolytics,,angioplasty..stent..maybe open heart..

so THEN if one has chelation...WHAT would be proven??

the "event" already occurred...conventional did what is standard..

it would be FAR fairer to be recruiting folks with NO heart attack,,but be

at

Quoted message said:

risk..and have angiographic proof that coronary arteries were in trouble..

THEN do chelation...THEN repeat angiogram

the way it is set up...this will NOT prove chelation did or did not do
anything....

think about it..

Prevent a second heart attack is more likely what they meant. However, that,
is a bad criteria, unless N= a very high number.

if the CHEATlation increases the lumina, which I hope they test for, then it
wil lbe shown to have a positive effect.

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If chelation has been thoroughly 'debunked' then why are 'researchers'

still

Quoted message said:

adamant in wanting to test it?
Doesn't make sense.

It has not been debunked. It has never been shown to address the underlying
disease process. Hopefully, this is the study that will do it.

Quoted message said:

Anth

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy

2 hours, 32 minutes ago Add Health - HealthDay to My Yahoo!

FRIDAY, May 14 (HealthDayNews) -- Researchers are looking for cardiac
patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
prevent heart attacks.

Yahoo! Health
Have questions about your health?
Find answers here.

Chelation, an alternative form of therapy, involves the intravenous

infusion

Quoted message said:

of disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, combined with high doses of
antioxidant vitamin and mineral supplements.

Doctors with Rush University Medical Center believe the combination of
calcium, zinc, cadmium, manganese, iron, and copper may reduce
artery-clogging calcium deposits.

Once enrolled in the study, patients will receive 30 weekly infusions of
either the chelation solution or a placebo, followed by 10 additional
infusion sessions every other week.

To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented

heart

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

chelation

Quoted message said:

therapy within the last five years or have a history of allergic

reaction

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

chelation therapy are not eligible.

To enroll, call (888) 644-6226. More information about the national

Trial

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

Assess Chelation Therapy can be found here.

More information

The American Heart Association (news - web sites) has more about

chelation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

therapy for heart disease.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You can have many heart attacks.
Anth

yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the inclusion
criteria is poorly worded

my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was for
those who ALREADY had an event

it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary artery
bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...

thus...I don't get it...

and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply has
never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it works...

thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart attack
"yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation angiography that
the arteries are clear...

perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...

hawki.....

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You can have many heart attacks.
Anth

yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

inclusion

Quoted message said:

criteria is poorly worded

my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was

for

Quoted message said:

those who ALREADY had an event

it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

artery

Quoted message said:

bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...

thus...I don't get it...

and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply has
never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it works...

thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

attack

Quoted message said:

"yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation angiography

that

Quoted message said:

the arteries are clear...

perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...

A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid arteries.
That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly believed
what they claim.

So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly challenge
the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show the
arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid arteries.
That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly believed
what they claim.

So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly challenge
the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show the
arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

Peter Moran

sorry Peter...I did not mean to imply I believed chelation COULD treat
atherosclerosis...but that this study as written would prove nothing...about
chelation....

"prevent" a second heart attack?? is sorta dumb...as depending upon the
intervention after the first...there may not have been a second anyhoo.....

and I agree with you that the chelationists could design a trial that could
prove or disprove the efficacy...obviously they don't want to show it does not
work...

hawki.....

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

<[email hidden].

au>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid

arteries.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly

believed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what they claim.

So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly

challenge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

Peter Moran

sorry Peter...I did not mean to imply I believed chelation COULD treat
atherosclerosis...but that this study as written would prove

nothing...about

Quoted message said:

chelation....

I didn't think you did. I would even question whether there is any
obligation on the medical profession as a whole to investigate chelation
further. The traditions and conventions of the profession to which the
chelationists belong requires THEM to substantiate their claims with real
evidence. Too many quacks already find it convenient to adopt a "prove I
am wrong" strategy, thus totally reversing the normal burden of proof.

Peter Moran

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Hawki63) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" M.a.r.kP.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

this is sorta scarey in itself

first it says

Quoted message said:

patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
prevent heart attacks.

PREVENT heart attacks

then it says

Quoted message said:

To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented heart
attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

so....how can you PREVENT an event that has already occurred??

And likely after the heart attack,,conventional would have done SOMETHING...ie
thrombolytics,,angioplasty..stent..maybe open heart..

so THEN if one has chelation...WHAT would be proven??

Why the problem? As I recall, this is exactly how they first showed the
utility of statins in preventing second heart attacks.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Hawki63) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You can have many heart attacks.
Anth

yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the inclusion
criteria is poorly worded

Not at all. It is a common study design in cardiovascular drugs to see
if they can prevent a second cardiac incident in high risk patients.

Quoted message said:

my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was for
those who ALREADY had an event

Yes, but it's for prevention of a second event.

Quoted message said:

it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary artery
bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...

Not a problem. Such people are still put on aspirin or statins after
surgery or stenting in order to prevent a second event.

Quoted message said:

thus...I don't get it...

There may be things to criticize about the study, but this isn't really
one of them.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article
<[email hidden]
om.au>,

Peter Moran said:

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

<[email hidden].

au>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid

arteries.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly

believed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what they claim.

So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly

challenge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

Peter Moran

sorry Peter...I did not mean to imply I believed chelation COULD treat
atherosclerosis...but that this study as written would prove

nothing...about

Quoted message said:

chelation....

I didn't think you did. I would even question whether there is any
obligation on the medical profession as a whole to investigate chelation
further. The traditions and conventions of the profession to which the
chelationists belong requires THEM to substantiate their claims with real
evidence. Too many quacks already find it convenient to adopt a "prove I
am wrong" strategy, thus totally reversing the normal burden of proof.

Indeed. There have been a few randomized, double-blind studies of
chelation therapy for CAD. None of them have shown a benefit above
placebo. Although they are relatively small, they were powered enough to
let us conclude that if there really is a benefit from chelation, it is
small, certainly far smaller than what is claimed by chelationists.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article
<[email hidden]
om.au>,

Peter Moran said:

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You can have many heart attacks.
Anth

yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

inclusion

Quoted message said:

criteria is poorly worded

my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was

for

Quoted message said:

those who ALREADY had an event

it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

artery

Quoted message said:

bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...

thus...I don't get it...

and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply has
never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it works...

thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

attack

Quoted message said:

"yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation angiography

that

Quoted message said:

the arteries are clear...

perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...

A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid arteries.
That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly believed
what they claim.

So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly challenge
the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show the
arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

One problem is, even if the study proposed turns out negative, the
chelationists will always find a flaw in it. For instance, in this case,
they will claim that perhaps chelation can't prevent recurrent MIs but
that it can prevent the first MI. Both claims must be tested.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: Orac [email hidden]
Date: 5/15/2004 3:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Why the problem? As I recall, this is exactly how they first showed the
utility of statins in preventing second heart attacks.

sorry... I don't recall that the wording said "prevent subsequent MI"

also..I still wonder how reliable such a study would be...esp if the first MI
had been treated with CABG....since "they" are supposed to be "good" for at
least 10 years?? well...at least for the vessels bypassed....

hawki.....

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Indeed. There have been a few randomized, double-blind studies of
chelation therapy for CAD. None of them have shown a benefit above
placebo.

I think that is misleading, it depends on what your defintiion of a
'placebo' is. Is it active or inactive?
When you have cleared that issue up you will see that there was significant
objective benefit in both groups in where an active placebo was used. As a
scientist you would see that and conclude that more studies need to be done
on the 'active placebo.' All you can conclude is that the chelation agent
alone showed no response.

Quoted message said:

Although they are relatively small, they were powered enough to
let us conclude that if there really is a benefit from chelation, it is
small, certainly far smaller than what is claimed by chelationists.

<See above> (This is my argument for vitamin c)
Anth

Quoted message said:

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]
om.au>,

Peter Moran said:

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: "Anth" [email hidden]
>Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <[email hidden]>

>You can have many heart attacks.
>Anth
>

yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

inclusion

Quoted message said:

criteria is poorly worded

my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for

Quoted message said:

those who ALREADY had an event

it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

artery

Quoted message said:

bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...

thus...I don't get it...

and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply

has

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it

works...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

attack

Quoted message said:

"yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation

angiography

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that

Quoted message said:

the arteries are clear...

perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...

A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid

arteries.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly

believed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what they claim.

So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly

challenge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

One problem is, even if the study proposed turns out negative, the
chelationists will always find a flaw in it. For instance, in this case,
they will claim that perhaps chelation can't prevent recurrent MIs but
that it can prevent the first MI. Both claims must be tested.

Indeed this is what happens with things like Laetrile, ascorbate for cancer
and other things.
Still doesn't prove anything, when do these guys stop - it's not going to
happen because they 'know' that the therapy works in an uncontrolled
setting?
Anth

Quoted message said:

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: Orac [email hidden]
Date: 5/15/2004 3:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Not at all. It is a common study design in cardiovascular drugs to see
if they can prevent a second cardia

I realize that

Quoted message said:

Yes, but it's for prevention of a second event.

I musta missed that part...

Quoted message said:

Not a problem. Such people are still put on aspirin or statins after
surgery or stenting in order to prevent a second event.

again..of course....

but nowhere did the inclusion criteria say "no adjuvant therapy"..ie
statins,,aspirin,,Plavix etc

so HOW to prove it was the chelation??

again...if CABG was done..the study would have to be strung out for many
years...less so if stents

hawki.....

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: Orac [email hidden]
Date: 5/15/2004 3:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

One problem is, even if the study proposed turns out negative, the
chelationists will always find a flaw in it. For instance, in this case,
they will claim that perhaps chelation can't prevent recurrent MIs but
that it can prevent the first MI. Both claims must be tested.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

agreed

hawki.....

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You can have many heart attacks.
Anth

yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

inclusion

Quoted message said:

criteria is poorly worded

my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was

for

Quoted message said:

those who ALREADY had an event

it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

artery

Quoted message said:

bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...

thus...I don't get it...

Well that's where ethics come in, do you deny a group of patients drugs
which help them, just so you can get your scientific results?

Quoted message said:

and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply has
never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it works...

IMHO the chelating agent has been 'debunked', but the individual parts have
not.
Clue - active placebo - ascorbate

Quoted message said:

thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

attack

Quoted message said:

"yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation angiography

that

Quoted message said:

the arteries are clear...

Quoted message said:

perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...

I'm sure it could be designed better, you might want to email a few
cardiologists for their opinion.

Quoted message said:

hawki.....

Anth