School Bus - How Wrong Am I???

If you're smart enough to ride a bicycle, you're smart enough to know that school buses are likely to make a lot of stops.

It is the right of the school bus to let kids off at whatever interval the driver chooses. And it is your duty not to pass a school bus while it is unloading - regardless of how impatient you may be, or whatever interval the bus driver chose. The only exception to that law is if a median is present and you are on the other side of it. The law does not state - do not pass unless you think it isn't dangerous. It says - do not pass. Period. And you passed. What part of 'do not pass' didn't you understand?

The problem could have been solved far more effectively if you had simply turned around and gone the other way, or picked a different road, as soon as you saw the bus making stops. This was, as you said, just an afternoon ride. A casual subdivision ride doesn't mandate that you follow one road religiously, especially if that road has a school bus letting kids off.

There are a lot of places that you can assert your right to ride on the road. In front of a school bus full of children isn't an appropriate place to be doing this. Next time, pick a garbage truck to conduct an experiment in right to ride. They stop frequently, you can pass them all day, and the occupants could care less. Don't play grabass with a schoolbus just because it stops to unload children. That sort of behavior will give all of us a bad name.

JohnO said:

If you're smart enough to ride a bicycle, you're smart enough to know that school buses are likely to make a lot of stops.

A "lot of stops" and what this bus was doing aren't really the same thing ...

JohnO said:

It is the right of the school bus to let kids off at whatever interval the driver chooses.

Actually the school district delineates exactly where the bus stops are to take place. The driver doesn't have the discretion to alter the route - I wonder how much discretion the bus driver has in making extra stops.

JohnO said:

And it is your duty not to pass a school bus while it is unloading - regardless of how impatient you may be, or whatever interval the bus driver chose.

Is a bus "unloading" while inching from stop to stop with the lights flashing? You tell me. My guess is the driver was stopping and taking head counts to see which houses needed a front door delivery. This might explain the half stops and delays.

JohnO said:

The only exception to that law is if a median is present and you are on the other side of it. The law does not state - do not pass unless you think it isn't dangerous. It says - do not pass. Period. And you passed. What part of 'do not pass' didn't you understand?

If you want to get technical, I'm also obligated to operate my bike in a safe manner whereby I am visible to motorists and school buses alike. Being immediately behind the bus and fairly invisible to the driver and also likely invisible to oncoming traffic which may seek to turn left after the bus passed by, and in order to protect myself, I deemed it reasonably necessary to remove myself from the driver's blind spot to a position of relative safety. In this case, I took reasonable action under the circumstances to avoid any greater harm. SO, yes, I could easily argue that the law does bend without breaking.

JohnO said:

The problem could have been solved far more effectively if you had simply turned around and gone the other way, or picked a different road, as soon as you saw the bus making stops.

The law also prohibits illegal U-turns.

JohnO said:

There are a lot of places that you can assert your right to ride on the road. In front of a school bus full of children isn't an appropriate place to be doing this. Next time, pick a garbage truck to conduct an experiment in right to ride. They stop frequently, you can pass them all day, and the occupants could care less. Don't play grabass with a schoolbus just because it stops to unload children. That sort of behavior will give all of us a bad name.

In seeking not to tail a school bus, I passed it ... so "grabass" really isn't what went down ... a bus making a reasonable amount of stops is unlikely to hold up a casual cyclist ... read carefully next time.

I don't see the problem at all. All moving vehicles are supposed to stop behind a school bus for the safety of ALL (kids, bus driver, and said "vehicle"😉. If this is that much of a problem, perhaps plan your rides so that you are not likely to be stuck behind a school bus.

What if you had a kid who got mowed down by an impatient guy/gal on a bicycle?

(and I don't understand what all the generalizations are about regarding religion, class etc). If one is THAT impatient or inflexible, perhaps get signed up to a pro team where training rides tend to be in remote places with fewer school buses.

FrankBattle said:

What if you had a kid who got mowed down by an impatient guy/gal on a bicycle?

If I scooter pushed around the bus, I probably topped out at 3 - 4mph ... there won't be any mowing down at 4 mph, 50 yards from the nearest kid.

But a school bus at 40mph in a posted 25 ... might speak to the general & overall reasonable nature of the bus driver and his habits though ... if I were watching it I might have said the driver was doing it on purpose.

Think of it in the Darwinistic manner....survival of the fittest. If the child is stupid enough to walk out into traffic without looking, he/she deserves to be in ICU. One less future [censored] that yells and swerves at us.

As for passing school buses, I'm pretty sure you're allowed to as soon as the bugger turns off its lights.

stone61cm said:

Think of it in the Darwinistic manner....survival of the fittest. If the child is stupid enough to walk out into traffic without looking, he/she deserves to be in ICU. One less future [censored] that yells and swerves at us.

As for passing school buses, I'm pretty sure you're allowed to as soon as the bugger turns off its lights.

Yeah but that was the problem- he's taking baby steps - one kid gets off- then he slows to crawl, lights half on but no stop. If he was actually moving or making stops every so often, it's a non-issue because I either wouldn't be on his tail- nor would I try to pass.

and as a word of advice for those who haven't preconceived this yet - the right shoulder (U.S.) is the blind spot for kids getting off the bus- don't ever pass on the shoulder ... what (usually) works for left turning cars doesn't apply to school buses. IF YOU TRY TO PASS ON THE SHOULDER, EVENTUALLY YOU WILL GET CREAMED!!! NEVER EVER DO IT !!!!

I think a lot of you are making a big deal out of essentially nothing. The guy went around a school bus on the sidewalk on the opposite side of the road. Big deal! Yeah, you're not supposed to do it. Did he really put anyone in danger? In my opinion, no. Give it a rest already.

Do all of you follow every letter of the law when you're riding? Coming to a complete stop at every stop-light/sign? Never filtering up to the front of the row of traffic? Never riding on the sidewalk? Always riding vehicularly? To those of you that answered yes; Do you really? I doubt it.

Like the parable says: "Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone"

3_days said:

Essentially, the rule of the road for cyclists here is that, you yield as a car would yield and obey street signs, etc., as if you were behind the wheel of a car. Cars are obligated to yield to cyclists in a similar manner- although any cyclist expecting a car to yield might have a short future in cycling.

School buses are the grand chariots of motor vehicles - and for the most part, I agree with the reasoning behind the laws. In my case, the driver was abusing the system by stopping much too frequently IMO. In any case, traffic is expected to yield to a school bus at all times.

Both oncoming and flowing traffic must stop when a bus flashes its lights. This is true no matter how many lanes of traffic are coming/going. Running a flashing bus carries a decent fine and points (demerits) on your driving record.

The school bus stops are scheduled by the transportation office of the school district. The busdriver has no power to add-drop stops on his/her normal route, and since they get paid by route, they really stop when they have to so they can get back to the lot as soon as possible.
Busdriver powertrip? YES!! Unscheduled stops? Ask for the bus schedule to your local school district, since it is public information -minus the name of the minors - it should present no problem.
Idiotic bus drivers? Meh .... some of them are and a bunch of them are really nice. But at 14$ an hour you get what you pay for.

meehs said:

I think a lot of you are making a big deal out of essentially nothing. The guy went around a school bus on the sidewalk on the opposite side of the road. Big deal! Yeah, you're not supposed to do it. Did he really put anyone in danger? In my opinion, no. Give it a rest already.

Do all of you follow every letter of the law when you're riding? Coming to a complete stop at every stop-light/sign? Never filtering up to the front of the row of traffic? Never riding on the sidewalk? Always riding vehicularly? To those of you that answered yes; Do you really? I doubt it.

Like the parable says: "Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone"

YEAH ^^^ what he said ...

Thanks meehs ... (I'll get that 5 bucks to you next payday ...j/k)

meehs said:

I think a lot of you are making a big deal out of essentially nothing. The guy went around a school bus on the sidewalk on the opposite side of the road. Big deal! Yeah, you're not supposed to do it. Did he really put anyone in danger? In my opinion, no. Give it a rest already.

Do all of you follow every letter of the law when you're riding? Coming to a complete stop at every stop-light/sign? Never filtering up to the front of the row of traffic? Never riding on the sidewalk? Always riding vehicularly? To those of you that answered yes; Do you really? I doubt it.

Like the parable says: "Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone"

And I think an essential point is being missed. This wasn't a garbage truck, or a city bus. It was a school bus. And no, I have never cut corners or failed to follow the law when a school bus is involved. I personally don't know anyone, cyclist or motorist, who cuts corners around school buses. It's a contemptable thing to do. Children don't have the experience of adults, even with something simple like crossing the street - that's why they have parents, and there are special laws regarding school buses. It is in recognition of the exuberant, and occasionally inexperienced, nature of children. They run, and don't think, just like we did when we were kids. Fortunately, none of us encountered a cyclist with a careless attitude towards children when we were growing up.

Not too far from my home, on a lonely stretch of I-71 near the town of Carrolton, KY, is an ominous sign on the roadside. It marks the location where, on a dark night in 1988, a drunk driver slammed into a fully loaded school bus, tore open it's fuel tank, and set it on fire. By the time the fire was put out, twenty eight children had burned to death. The kids were scared, confused, and in the darkness, couldn't find the exits. I drive by there every so often, and get a chill up my spine every time I see that sign. Children can't think for themselves, and that's why anyone of character and maturity exercises caution around them.

I don't expect a bicycle to do that sort of damage, but a cycle darting out into the road could spook a driver into dodging into the path of the bus, or children getting off the bus. Or maybe this guy will get a bit more impatient next time, and cut to the inside. Sure, knock over a six year old and crack their skull on the curb. What's a dead little girl compared to a delayed ride?

Sorry, but 3_days had every opportunity to simply turn around and go the other way. It was, by his own words, just a casual ride. Instead, he wants to play chicken with a school bus that's dropping kids off and rationalize ignoring child safety laws. However mild he thinks it is - this started with him breaking the law. What part of "do not pass" didn't you understand?

This entire incident would never have happened had he simply followed the law, and the common sense rules of human ethics that the rest of us follow. I've probably bent enough traffic laws myself, but when it comes to school buses or school zones? Absolutely not.

JohnO said:

And I think an essential point is being missed. This wasn't a garbage truck, or a city bus. It was a school bus. And no, I have never cut corners or failed to follow the law when a school bus is involved. I personally don't know anyone, cyclist or motorist, who cuts corners around school buses. It's a contemptable thing to do. Children don't have the experience of adults, even with something simple like crossing the street - that's why they have parents, and there are special laws regarding school buses. It is in recognition of the exuberant, and occasionally inexperienced, nature of children. They run, and don't think, just like we did when we were kids. Fortunately, none of us encountered a cyclist with a careless attitude towards children when we were growing up.

Not too far from my home, on a lonely stretch of I-71 near the town of Carrolton, KY, is an ominous sign on the roadside. It marks the location where, on a dark night in 1988, a drunk driver slammed into a fully loaded school bus, tore open it's fuel tank, and set it on fire. By the time the fire was put out, twenty eight children had burned to death. The kids were scared, confused, and in the darkness, couldn't find the exits. I drive by there every so often, and get a chill up my spine every time I see that sign. Children can't think for themselves, and that's why anyone of character and maturity exercises caution around them.

I don't expect a bicycle to do that sort of damage, but a cycle darting out into the road could spook a driver into dodging into the path of the bus, or children getting off the bus. Or maybe this guy will get a bit more impatient next time, and cut to the inside. Sure, knock over a six year old and crack their skull on the curb. What's a dead little girl compared to a delayed ride?

Sorry, but 3_days had every opportunity to simply turn around and go the other way. It was, by his own words, just a casual ride. Instead, he wants to play chicken with a school bus that's dropping kids off and rationalize ignoring child safety laws. However mild he thinks it is - this started with him breaking the law. What part of "do not pass" didn't you understand?

This entire incident would never have happened had he simply followed the law, and the common sense rules of human ethics that the rest of us follow. I've probably bent enough traffic laws myself, but when it comes to school buses or school zones? Absolutely not.

Like I said before. The OP didn't put anyone in danger. Not even a little bit. Like I said before, some of you are making a big emotional issue out of what amounts to essentially nothing. Your incomprehensible comparison of a drunk driver ramming a school bus and overblown worst case scenario not withstanding. I'll stand by what I said before and leave it at that. Guess we just have to agree to disagree. Completely!

Edit: I don't know why I'm arguing this point or why I even care. I'll continue to ride as I've been riding for the last 20+ years. Haven't injured anyone. Ever. Not even once. Except myself of course! :o

Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that 3-days decided to scream around the bus in a reckless manner. From the back of the bus to the front of the bus, how fast could he be going on his bike? Even if every worst possibility combined, still not a lot of damage.

Now, back to reality, if he is cautiously passing, the possibility of doing ANY damage is extremey remote.

Most cyclists complain of pedestrians who walk around without any road sense. No wonder, if we pander too them, as kids, so much that to even walk to the bus stop is too much of an effort for precious then, how do we expect them to learn road sense?

Also, if everytime a school bus stops, all the traffic stops, then how on earth will kids learn to cope and deal with traffic? Aren't we teaching them that they are the centre of the universe and the world will stop for them? Then we wonder why kids don't respect traffic.

If kids learn that their stupidity around busses will have no consequences then, how can we expect them to be responsible.

A world without consequences, that is all kids need.
Scotty

meehs said:

Like I said before. The OP didn't put anyone in danger. Not even a little bit. Like I said before, some of you are making a big emotional issue out of what amounts to essentially nothing. Your incomprehensible comparison of a drunk driver ramming a school bus and overblown worst case scenario not withstanding. I'll stand by what I said before and leave it at that. Guess we just have to agree to disagree. Completely!

Edit: I don't know why I'm arguing this point or why I even care. I'll continue to ride as I've been riding for the last 20+ years. Haven't injured anyone. Ever. Not even once. Except myself of course! :o

The thing is, no matter what the topic is, there'll always be someone who disagrees. Always. Especially on the net. It's just on of those things, and I think you're on the right track in not making an ordeal out of it.

JohnO said:

And I think an essential point is being missed. This wasn't a garbage truck, or a city bus. It was a school bus. And no, I have never cut corners or failed to follow the law when a school bus is involved. I personally don't know anyone, cyclist or motorist, who cuts corners around school buses. It's a contemptable thing to do. Children don't have the experience of adults, even with something simple like crossing the street - that's why they have parents, and there are special laws regarding school buses. It is in recognition of the exuberant, and occasionally inexperienced, nature of children. They run, and don't think, just like we did when we were kids. Fortunately, none of us encountered a cyclist with a careless attitude towards children when we were growing up.

Sure, great idea.

Wrap them in cotton wool all their child-hood - that way you will ensure they never learn to grow up.

Are you trying to save the kids, or ensure they all grow up dead?

Perhaps if we never let them walk at all then they'll never fall over and bump their heads. Let's make that a law. Compulsory use prams until they leave school. Brilliant!

Scotty

The 2 windows for school buses per day are fairly short, no? Why has no one suggested that 3_days (or whomever) simply augment the start time by a few minutes either way. He will miss the school bus altogether, no?

Yes indeed, this should not be made into an ordeal. Why not just wait the few minutes it takes for the school bus to do its business and spare us overly sensitive netizens from popping blood vessels?

Funny thing is where I live, if a school bus driver sees a car behind it, they have ALWAYS pulled over to let the car pass especially if there is enough room say, like on a country road.

Is this a case of bike rage?

FrankBattle said:

Why has no one suggested that 3_days (or whomever) simply augment the start time by a few minutes either way.

Because the impression that at least I got from the post is that this was an unexpected event, and not something that he does daily. I'm sure he has the sense to alter his route to avoid the bus from now on, so I didn't think this advice was necessary.

It's like if you crash on your bike, and someone tells you not to do that again.

if there was even ONE child on that bus while it was going over the speed limit, that driver should be fired; the over-zealous bus driver is at fault... you are a cyclist, forcristsakes, NOT a crazed drunk driver going 65mph in a 3000lb automobile!!

A couple more comments:

1) I rode at dinner time, not to avoid buses specifically, but that's when I was out there.

2) The drunk driver/bus fire argument is a fine example of an awfully strained analogy- usually used by politicians without real world experience. It be like arguing to make game hunting illegal because people use guns to commit crimes. Not that I'm gun friendly, but just an example to show how that argument sucks.

3) Where I live, I believe (but I'm not certain) that school buses are not supposed to allow cars to pass as a courtesy - apparently, more accidents are caused by motorists trying to pass the bus without the ability to see completely around it.

4) The point of my post is to show how a certain school bus driver, because of the fact that he operated a school bus, more than likely felt that he could do whatever he pleased, no matter how seemingly inconsiderate or inconsistent with customary behavior or job mandates. Moreover, the more I've thought about it, I wonder if some of his inconsiderate behavior wasn't done purposely- which would explain why he was so ticked when he realized that I passed.

I will acknowledge JohnO's general argument though - which absolutely has merit. From a traffic law standpoint, cyclists are treated like motorists in many respects. This is a compliment to the speed of riders today and the equipment that allows us to cruise at 20+ mph on public roads.

No one would argue that, if I were riding a ZXR-600 sportbike, the action I took was absolutely out of line. If you accept that bikes are treated as motorcycles in some respects, then JohnO is not wrong in recognizing statutory obligations and the related interest in child safety.

The reality is that cyclists are different in many aspects of traffic safety laws, both practically and legally. Whether the legal obligations might apply here is the essential argument. Let's face it, BMX kids don't get traffic tickets and probably "illegally" pass school buses daily. I bet that the bus driver wouldn't even blink if a BMX-er did exactly what I did.

My point is that, school buses have an obligation to recognize the limits of their statutory privilege, and ought not to abuse it. If you assume that I overlooked the possibility of unforeseeable risk- you could say the same for the bus driver who made unscheduled and all too frequent stops (never mind the speeding).

Yes. The bus driver was/is wrong for speeding regardless of whether there were kids on the bus or not.

But for folks to start condoning something we know is wrong just because we all may do it is, well, not good. For instance, many in here (me too) have rolled through a stop sign, red light etc, but technically you know it's wrong. I know in our minds we are just glorified pedestrians and we get the right of way, but the reality is that you are a moving vehicle. The rules should apply; break them at your own risk but don't try and rally support. We are not, by nature a bunch of law breakers, but we do it and we hope we are okay doing it. It's why we slow down at *most* stop signs rather than just plowing through.

But if the point of this thread is to yell at a speeding bus driver, then I'm all for it. I suspect it wasn't just about the bus driver. Perhaps this could have gone in the "Cycling Hates" thread where all sorts of traffic violations are, well, condoned (not sharing the road etc).

(please stop. my blood pressure is rising)