h*lfords grrrr and replacement bike

doobrie said:

so as this could go on for a while so im thinking of getting another bike

any good bargains anywhere right now which i can pick up from w mids area? i like the setup of the
hybrid and longer term would probably migrate to the audax tourer type bike but right now i just
need a bike - if i buy 2nd hand i wont know a duffer from a bargain and unlikely to find a local
one with mudguards, rack and 700/38c tyres that suit my waistline so where can i get one from? im
half tempted to just buy another off the peg cheapie from h*lfords at least this time with my eyes
open and knowing full well what will happen if something does go wrong - at least ive a basic idea
of what i could be tightening and watching out for .... its just too easy to buy one from there
but i also know the pitfalls now. i dont particularly want to give them my business after how they
handled this incident but they do have a shed load of bikes i can afford which is a pity too!!

so can anyone give me an option other than h*lfords that is easy, straight forward and will get me
riding very soon! otherwise i can feel the pull of the cycling overiding my senses and forcing me
to buy another bike from the easiest place accesible ... which is, yes .. h*lfords!

First thing, are you talking about getting a refund from the current bike and then spending out
again? Personally I think you'd have a job, although I'd argue in your favour that it is your
consumer right. You've said you're not a confident confrontational person, I think you'll need to do
both to get a refund. FWIW it's what I would do and take the money elsewhere.

The best thing about doing this would be the fact 2004 models are just being released, meaning
discounts on 2003 and major discounts on 2002 models. Or at least that's the case in the MTB world.

Quoted message said:

im having visions of owning several cheap bikes all in some state of disrepair within a few months
knowing full well i should just spend the right money now .... although if i do i can see me being
single fairly quickly - it is a dilema!!!

If It were me, I'd be in store talking to the manager, explaining the situation, your frustration,
loss of confidence in Halfrauds and their staff (for being unable to keep their promise of
"tomorrow"😉 asking for a refund or replacement, brand new bike. I'd be looking at a different model
(you've lost confidence in that one) to the same price/spec or better if same is not available. (you
might casually notice one with the extra gears you wanted at a similar price?) I'd also be looking
for some form of goodwill gesture for the inconvenience. For a weeks worth, I'd be looking at
something not less than fifty quids worth shelf price.

With the store manager you should be able to reason with him without getting angry, just keep calm
but be very firm about what you now want.

It's your right, and you know it makes sense. Besides if you stick with MTB it'll be harder work
whilst training (thus getting you fitter!) until you get your race bike, and then you'll have two
bike in good repair to choose from when the mood takes you.

g'luck 🙂

--
Dnc

Quoted message said:

With the store manager you should be able to reason with him without getting angry, just keep calm
but be very firm about what you now want.

i dont think im gonna bother with that, if it comes down to the wire i'll win a case but it would
have to go to small claims im certain.

besides, what i meant was .. buy another now, i'll get that one back and i'll have two bikes to
rotate when things go wrong which cant be a bad thing if im using it to get to/from work. this way i
should be able to continue with my spring decent bike buy and whilst it will nark the GF it wont be
enough to cause ructions!

i like a simple life me. which is why long term i think i'll probably learn what i need to build my
own apart from the few things that would need specialist tools and get the lbs to sort those.

Quoted message said:

h*lfords are really putting a dent in my cycling enthusiasm ... a promise

of

Quoted message said:

a speedy repair with the full parts i wanted replacing and its now a week since i took the bike in
and the parts still havent arrived, they were supposed to be there monday, then tuesday, now
tomorrow! i could have ordered the things myself from any number of online suppliers for next day
delivery, yet they're supposed to do this every day and deal with it professionally ... yeah!

all im getting are silly comments about head office not being as efficient as it should and the
other day i couldnt believe it when i was holding on for one of them the guy tells me, "he's
dealing with a particularly fussy customer - keeping him there asking lots of questions - you know
the type that just want to know everything and wont let you go until you give them answers!"

I bought a BMX bike which had a serious problem with the quill. for my son from H*lf*rds On bringing
it back they told me they fixed it but one twist of the handlebars (while still in the store) showed
the problem had not been rectified.

They checked the stock and all similar models appeared to have the same problem. As far as I was
concerned the bike was dangerous and not safe for my son to use.

To be fair they immediately offered a replacement to the same value on the spot. My problem was that
my son had set his heart on a black number and they had none at the same price - only one at an
extra £100! We negotiated and split the price difference.

My son got a better bike in the colour he wanted and although it cost me an extra £50 I console
myself with the fact that when I came to fork up my £50 of the difference I was told I had now spent
a 'promotional' amount and was now entitled to £50 worth of accessories!

Got that stand I had my eye after all ......

On the negative side a friend has just had to return 2 new bikes (to a different branch). He
had left them in for their free 'check up'. They came out worse than they went in. He is not a
happy chap.

Conclusion - you can sometimes be lucky/unlucky. In my case calm and sensible negotiation got a
result. My friend's case is still pending. Watch this space .....

David K

remove the spam trap in the address to reply

doobrie said:

Quoted message said:

With the store manager you should be able to reason with him without getting angry, just keep calm
but be very firm about what you now want.

i dont think im gonna bother with that, if it comes down to the wire i'll win a case but it would
have to go to small claims im certain.

It would never get that far, even if the manager didn't play ball, Head Office wouldn't dream of
contravening your statutory rights.

Quoted message said:

besides, what i meant was .. buy another now, i'll get that one back and i'll have two bikes to
rotate when things go wrong which cant be a bad thing if im using it to get to/from work.

You shouldn't have to have two bikes "just in case one breaks down" on the strength of your
experience with a BRAND NEW bike. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to have one bike that
will last you many years with nothing but fair wear and tear. Obviously exceptional circumstances
and accidents may happen. But your crank issue is not exceptional nor an accident, it was either
faulty parts or workmanship.

Quoted message said:

this way i should be able to continue with my spring decent bike buy and whilst it will nark the
GF it wont be enough to cause ructions!

But it'll be another couple of hundred quid gone from your spring fund.

Quoted message said:

i like a simple life me. which is why long term i think i'll probably learn what i need to build
my own apart from the few things that would need specialist tools and get the lbs to sort those.

Heh I read that statment as "I like a simple life but am going to do something fairly complicated
and quite probably stressful but gain knowledge at the same time" 🙂

seriously though, I can see from your language that you're jaded over the incident, which is fair
enough, but the chances of it re-ocurring, even with another halfoords bike are probably slimmer
than kate moss.

I would be tempted to bet you a whole pound that a quiet conversation with the store manager would
be relatively brief, straightforward and mutually agreeable 🙂

--
Dnc

doobrie' email hidden in said:

h*lfords are really putting a dent in my cycling enthusiasm ... a promise of a speedy repair with
the full parts i wanted replacing and its now a week since i took the bike in and the parts still
havent arrived, they were supposed to be there monday, then tuesday, now tomorrow! i could have
ordered the things myself from any number of online suppliers for next day delivery, yet they're
supposed to do this every day and deal with it professionally ... yeah!

They have previously breached the Sale of Goods Act and they have now breached the verbal contract
that was negotiated between you.

Get assertive.

Get a refund.

Get a new bike.

Simple as that IMHO.

Love and sympathy from Rich x

--
If ingnorance is bliss then I am the erm er luckiest thingy in the whatchamacallit. To mail me,
change the obvious bit to richard

Doesnotcompute said:

It would never get that far, even if the manager didn't play ball, Head=

=20

Quoted message said:

Office wouldn't dream of contravening your statutory rights.

I agree with Doesnotcompute here. If you go in and have a word,=20 projecting initially that you are
*upset* rather than angry, and that=20 you will cease to be upset with appropriate action on their
behalf, IME=20 with dealing with retail complaints you will get results. Be prepared to =

start listing breaches of Sale of Goods act etc., but I very much doubt=20 it will come to that. At
the end of the day your bike is a drop in the=20 ocean to Halfords' turnover and if they do as you
quite reasonably=20 request then (a) they'll get you off their back and (b) possibly not=20 lose a
customer, both of which are good for them as well as you.

Quoted message said:

You shouldn't have to have two bikes "just in case one breaks down" on =

Quoted message said:

the strength of your experience with a BRAND NEW bike. There is no=20 reason you shouldn't be able
to have one bike that will last you many=20 years with nothing but fair wear and tear.=20

Again, agreed completely. If you're going to have two bikes then they'd =

best be completely and utterly different to get the most out of them (so =

my two main bikes are a recumbent tourer and a folder, one complements=20 the other and *can* be
used in the other's place at a pinch, but they=20 both really do very different things better or
worse than the other).

Quoted message said:

I would be tempted to bet you a whole pound that a quiet conversation=20 with the store manager
would be relatively brief, straightforward and=20 mutually agreeable 🙂

I'll throw in another =A31.50, so if you go and have a chat with the=20 manager that doesn't produce
the desired results then at least you'll=20 get a conciliatory pint!

Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics,
Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

been a busy couple days at work and didnt get chance to go into h*lfords until today at which point
manager was going to get a talking to, but ..

"ah, mr doobrie! ... your bikes all fixed and fully serviced, ready to ride away"! (me, thinking to
myself, why didnt i get the phone call !)

so its back, its supposedly fixed and tomorrow im going out on my first ride, but before i do i will
make sure the damn thing has been tightened ... how much force? do i just use a 14mm socket and
tighten as much as i feel it should go as with any other bolt or is there something magical about
these ones ... ?

now, the other thing was the advice ....

me: so how often do i need to tighten these cranks then? as i'll be doing 15 mile a day for a while
then bumping that upto 30 mile a day when i commute both ways once i feel a little fitter

them: oh, 15 miles .... well, to be honest, oh, 15 miles .... well, id take the tool with you and at
about half way give it a check and maybe tighten it a bit and then probably the end of every journey
for a while

so, come on people - why am i being given this odd advice? i will check and tighten the damn thing
every ride for a while just to make bloody sure its been tightened at all ... maybe they've just got
really weak staff in this branch!

doobrie said:

me: so how often do i need to tighten these cranks then? as i'll be doing 15 mile a day for a
while then bumping that upto 30 mile a day when i commute both ways once i feel a little
fitter

them: oh, 15 miles .... well, to be honest, oh, 15 miles .... well, id take the tool with you and
at about half way give it a check and maybe tighten it a bit and then probably the end of every
journey for a while

I would never ever even think about tightening cranks just 7 or 8 miles after a full service (which
should have been done on your bike before it left the shop). If there was a problem so soon after a
service I would be back in the shop post haste, pointing out how the bike must have been returned to
me in a dangerous condition and how I want a full refund and I would probably find another shop to
take my custom to.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden] "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep
dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

In "]news:[email hidden], doobrie <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

them: oh, 15 miles .... well, to be honest, oh, 15 miles .... well, id take the tool with you and
at about half way give it a check and maybe tighten it a bit and then probably the end of every
journey for a while

Take it back and tell them if the cranks are going to come loose in 7.5 miles then its not safe and
not fit for the purpose. As I said earlier, properly fitted cranks do not need looking at or
checking period. The standard torque is 35-50Nm which is about a tight as you can do up the
appropriate sized allen key or wrench by hand. Ask what torque setting they used but to be honest
they seem so wildly ignorant of basic bicycle maintenance I would get my money back and go somewhere
where they know what they are doing.

Tony

--
"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality through not
dying." Woody Allen

Quoted message said:

Take it back and tell them if the cranks are going to come loose in 7.5 miles then its not safe
and not fit for the purpose. As I said earlier, properly fitted cranks do not need looking at or
checking period. The standard torque is 35-50Nm which is about a tight as you can do up the
appropriate sized allen key or wrench by hand. Ask what torque setting they used but to be honest
they seem so wildly ignorant of basic bicycle maintenance I would get my money back and go
somewhere where they know what they are doing.

Tony

well, no money changed hands as it was a warranty repair and the free first service, i'll just be
making sure the damn things right before i go out on it!

In "]news:[email hidden], doobrie <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

well, no money changed hands as it was a warranty repair and the free first service, i'll just be
making sure the damn things right before i go out on it!

I meant get your money back on the bike and go and then go and get a bike from a decent bike shop.

Tony

--
"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality through not
dying." Woody Allen

Quoted message said:

I meant get your money back on the bike and go and then go and get a bike from a decent bike shop.

Tony

i think were past that point now and besides, i have the bike back and despite its previous problem
should now be resolved and providing i at least make sure its right before it goes out and keep a
watchful eye on things in general (ie, basic bike maintenance) .... then if it happens again within
a reasonable period theres no real alternative other than refund

but id rather get in several hundred miles before anything like that again, i need to get my ass
back in the saddle

doobrie said:

been a busy couple days at work and didnt get chance to go into h*lfords until today at which
point manager was going to get a talking to, but ..

"ah, mr doobrie! ... your bikes all fixed and fully serviced, ready to ride away"! (me, thinking
to myself, why didnt i get the phone call
!)

so its back, its supposedly fixed and tomorrow im going out on my first ride, but before i do i
will make sure the damn thing has been tightened ... how much force? do i just use a 14mm socket
and tighten as much as i feel it should go as with any other bolt or is there something magical
about these ones ... ?

(Assuming square-taper types - almost certainly will be for this level of bike.....)

They are not just like other bolts because the bolt acts to press the crank onto the bottom bracket
spindle as it's tightened. The crank hole is actually smaller than the section of the spindle it
fits on. It expands as the aluminium crank is wedged onto the tapered steel spindle with brute
force. It's this tightness you feel, not the tightness of the bolt itself - so it does all feel and
act different.

There isn't an exact definite point where "crank is on all the way and correct". There is an
opitimum and safe range but the crank can go on being pushed on beyond this.

Normally, you should just trust the mechanic to have done a proper job because it's bad practice to
tighten further (and that is the only way to test). But in this case, I think it would be reasonable
to insert whatever socket or key the cranks take and turn clockwise by 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn. This is
very unlikely to do any harm if it's just done once. It should feel bloody tight but still possibly
looser than a FULLY tightened normal bolt would. Check the manufacturer's recommended torque value
(might be on the web; or see Park Tools*) if you have a torque wrench. If not, consider getting a
torque wrench.

Quoted message said:

now, the other thing was the advice ....

me: so how often do i need to tighten these cranks then? as i'll be doing 15 mile a day for a
while then bumping that upto 30 mile a day when i commute both ways once i feel a little
fitter

them: oh, 15 miles .... well, to be honest, oh, 15 miles .... well, id take the tool with you and
at about half way give it a check and maybe tighten it a bit and then probably the end of every
journey for a while

What?!! Not only should properly fitted cranks not need re-tightening, it is bad to re-tighten. See:
draco.acs.uci.edu8f.11.htmlOpen ↗ - scroll down to find relevant bit; also notice point
about bolt /normally/ feeling loose after cranks are ridden (because cranks squirm up taper not
because bolt is loosening).

Quoted message said:

so, come on people - why am i being given this odd advice?

It's not unique advice but I reckon it's bad advice. Trouble is, a lot of manufacturers and
mechanics don't use enough torque.

* www.parktool.com/repair_help/FAQrCarm.shtml

* www.parktool.com/repair_help/torque.shtml - crank arm bolt

~PB