shimano cartridge hubs??

Quoted message said:

why not?

Why?

Quoted message said:

why not?

better not.

Red.

--

Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana"😉
KG6RCR

Quoted message said:

why not?

I've mentioned this before. Shimano doesn't do carbon fiber (with the
exception of their new DA wheelset) or cartridge bearings, or titanium in
their stuff (except for XTR/DA FH bodies and cassettes). Other than their
STI shifters, they seem to embrace serviceability and longevity. Plus
cartridge bearings are press-fit and a pain in the butt.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

why not?

I've mentioned this before. Shimano doesn't do carbon fiber (with the
exception of their new DA wheelset)

Or their brake booster arch.

Quoted message said:

Other than their
STI shifters, they seem to embrace serviceability and longevity. Plus
cartridge bearings are press-fit and a pain in the butt.

So races that can't be replaced when damaged, and cones that can't be
found (or bought for a reasonable price) when you want them, are *not*
a pain in the butt?

I can still put virgin bearings in my 1980s Specialized sealed bearing
hubs, or Sunshine "Gyro Master" hubs, or 1970s steel-center Phil hubs--
for as little as $3 per hub. Try that with '70s Dura Ace or '80s
Santé or 600 Arabesque.

Chalo Colina

Chalo said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

why not?

I've mentioned this before. Shimano doesn't do carbon fiber (with
the exception of their new DA wheelset)

Or their brake booster arch.

Quoted message said:

Other than their
STI shifters, they seem to embrace serviceability and longevity.
Plus cartridge bearings are press-fit and a pain in the butt.

So races that can't be replaced when damaged, and cones that can't be
found (or bought for a reasonable price) when you want them, are *not*
a pain in the butt?

I can still put virgin bearings in my 1980s Specialized sealed bearing
hubs, or Sunshine "Gyro Master" hubs, or 1970s steel-center Phil
hubs-- for as little as $3 per hub. Try that with '70s Dura Ace or
'80s Santé or 600 Arabesque.

Hmm... those are good examples, but I personally wouldn't keep stuff for
that long. I'm biased because hammering stuff in just plain bothers me.
Sure, it may work and stuff, but IME, I break lots of stuff due to improper
installation and inexperience. I tend to hand off those jobs to the
managers.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:zjg4f.2532$vS1.86@dukeread03...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

why not?

I've mentioned this before. Shimano doesn't do carbon fiber (with the
exception of their new DA wheelset) or cartridge bearings, or titanium in
their stuff (except for XTR/DA FH bodies and cassettes). Other than their
STI shifters, they seem to embrace serviceability and longevity. Plus
cartridge bearings are press-fit and a pain in the butt.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Hit my hot button. Yep, that's why my 8 + year old Mavic FTS hubs with
approx 30,000 miles on them are still running smoothly on the original
CARTRIDGE bearings. Ridden in lot's of rain. Replaced the Specialized
cartridge bearings on my 1986 Trek 1500 once. It's been a dependable winter
bike for 15 years. Worn out a couple of Open 4CD's but the hubs and bearings
keep on ticking. I won't buy a wheel without cartridge bearings. Same reason
those pesky Chris King headsets are worth paying more for. If you are in to
riding and not maintenance cartridge is the way to go.
Bill

Bill said:

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message news:zjg4f.2532$vS1.86@dukeread03...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

why not?

I've mentioned this before. Shimano doesn't do carbon fiber (with
the exception of their new DA wheelset) or cartridge bearings, or
titanium in their stuff (except for XTR/DA FH bodies and cassettes).
Other than their STI shifters, they seem to embrace serviceability
and longevity. Plus cartridge bearings are press-fit and a pain in
the butt.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Hit my hot button. Yep, that's why my 8 + year old Mavic FTS hubs with
approx 30,000 miles on them are still running smoothly on the original
CARTRIDGE bearings. Ridden in lot's of rain. Replaced the Specialized
cartridge bearings on my 1986 Trek 1500 once. It's been a dependable
winter bike for 15 years. Worn out a couple of Open 4CD's but the
hubs and bearings keep on ticking. I won't buy a wheel without
cartridge bearings. Same reason those pesky Chris King headsets are
worth paying more for. If you are in to riding and not maintenance
cartridge is the way to go.
Bill

The cartridge bearing comment was linked to the serviceability quality.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Chalo said:

I can still put virgin bearings in my 1980s Specialized sealed bearing
hubs, or Sunshine "Gyro Master" hubs, or 1970s steel-center Phil
hubs-- for as little as $3 per hub. Try that with '70s Dura Ace or
'80s Santé or 600 Arabesque.

Hmm... those are good examples, but I personally wouldn't keep stuff for
that long. I'm biased because hammering stuff in just plain bothers me.
Sure, it may work and stuff, but IME, I break lots of stuff due to improper
installation and inexperience. I tend to hand off those jobs to the
managers.

There's no doubt that I find cartridge bearing swaps an easier thing to
do in the machine shop than in the bike shop. It wouldn't be difficult
or expensive for a bike shop to tool up properly to service the most
common cartridge bearing sizes, but for whatever reason it is rare for
a shop to actually do this.

Chalo Colina

Phil said:

Plus
cartridge bearings are press-fit and a pain in the butt.

I've had good luck with older Suntour and Bullseye hubs of this sort.
The Bullseye bearing cartridges were barely press-fit, and the Suntours
were easy to install with a little tool. I never replaced the Bullseye
bearings... just popped off the seals and cleaned and regreased. I
changed the Suntour bearings once... it was no more difficult than
repacking a conventional hub.

I'd say that for serviceability the sealed bearing hubs can be better
than cup & cone.

well, i am thankful. excellent well thought out design for the world
market excludes the better running catridge hub bearing
but not the BB. wanna discuss this?
i have yet to insert a hub cartridge bearing but have a number of other
inserts successfully pressed in
and suggest rooting thru your the stuff under the bench and grazing THE
hardware store for bolts or rod plus sleeves. there wil be something(s)
to slip fit thru the hub.
then a deep reach socket under a nut should press the bearing in or a
DRS with a custom washer. different socket manufacturers will produce
diffrerent sizes and shapes for say a 15mm DRS-varies from manu to
country.
do yawl have a toaster oven? toast the hub and freeze the bearing.
juggle. take a dry run or two always.
ever see these funny big washers laying on the street?
pickemupundthrowemunderthebench.

Quoted message said:

why not?

The case has been made before that they've invested heavily in precision
machinery to grind cones and cups which "lesser" hubs don't have. I
don't buy this: the *really* crapola hubs use cups and cones too.

I suspect it's (a) that they see the simple serviceability as a selling
point, (b) they like to sell you a new hub when the cups are worn [1] or
(c) there is a technical advantage such as reduced rolling resistance
when cornering. My experience of cartridge hubs and Shimano hubs would
suggest that (c) is non-existent, and I'd go for (a).

[1] but Campag have replaceable cups, so why are most of theirs cup and
cone?

Zog The Undeniable said:

Quoted message said:

why not?

The case has been made before that they've invested heavily in precision
machinery to grind cones and cups which "lesser" hubs don't have. I
don't buy this: the *really* crapola hubs use cups and cones too.

Yeah, but the crapola Joytechs and their ilk are made by the
bajillions. And anyone who has ever worked on such a hub can tell you
they don't exhibit signs of precision.

Quoted message said:

I suspect it's (a) that they see the simple serviceability as a selling
point

Cartridge hubs are generally easier to service: hammer + socket.

For a selling point, how about the lack of need for routine service?
Cheap cartridge hubs haven't held up as well for me as they seem to
have for others who responded. Shimano hubs have been very reliable
for me, and I've talked to a fair number of people who have put 10,000+
miles on Shimano hubs with no service and no problems. I haven't had
similar luck with cartridge bearing hubs (King, Surly, BMX stuff).

Quoted message said:

(b) they like to sell you a new hub when the cups are worn

How often do cups wear out? Usually the wheel cries out for service
before the cups are damaged. Also, are you sure Shimano cups are
non-replaceable? I don't think I've ever tried pounding Shimano cups
out of the shell before, but it's possible with many crapola hubs.

Quoted message said:

(c) there is a technical advantage such as reduced rolling resistance
when cornering. My experience of cartridge hubs and Shimano hubs would
suggest that (c) is non-existent

I agree.

-Vee

Vee said:

How often do cups wear out? Usually the wheel cries out for service
before the cups are damaged. Also, are you sure Shimano cups are
non-replaceable? I don't think I've ever tried pounding Shimano cups
out of the shell before, but it's possible with many crapola hubs.

Moot point. Even if you could remove the cups, you can't get
replacements. They've never been listed in the Shimano small parts
catalogs, AFAIK.

I'm not certain you can get replacements for the current crop of Campy,
either (someone wake up Peter...), but I remember shipping out
Nuovo/Super Record hub races 'way back when.

Jeff

JeffWills said:

Vee said:

How often do cups wear out? Usually the wheel cries out for service
before the cups are damaged. Also, are you sure Shimano cups are
non-replaceable? I don't think I've ever tried pounding Shimano cups
out of the shell before, but it's possible with many crapola hubs.

Moot point. Even if you could remove the cups, you can't get
replacements. They've never been listed in the Shimano small parts
catalogs, AFAIK.

I'm not certain you can get replacements for the current crop of
Campy, either (someone wake up Peter...), but I remember shipping out
Nuovo/Super Record hub races 'way back when.

Jeff

How often do you guys wear your cups out? I've always seen the cones die
first, and then the hub gets loose. The only destroyed cups I've seen come
from when the locknuts unscrew, and the cone gets ground way way into the
cup, fracturing it into sections, usually grinding the ball retainer in with
the balls and races.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

JeffWills said:

Vee said:

How often do cups wear out? Usually the wheel cries out for service
before the cups are damaged. Also, are you sure Shimano cups are
non-replaceable? I don't think I've ever tried pounding Shimano cups
out of the shell before, but it's possible with many crapola hubs.

Moot point. Even if you could remove the cups, you can't get
replacements. They've never been listed in the Shimano small parts
catalogs, AFAIK.

If the cups are removable, they're almost certainly interchangeable.
You'd just need a junked wheel from your LBS or basement or whatever.

-Vee

there is a technical advantage such as reduced rolling resistance
when cornering. My experience....
hoehoehoeharharhar!! in hd touring the cups/cones/bearings are
cornering vialently after 100 miles prixload or no prixload.
my expert, unusuallyeventemperedforanlbsmgr, assumed a definite
attitude on cartridge hubs beyond phil wood.
i assume an lbs in upper baboon indonesia may stike a similar posse

JeffWills said:

Moot point. Even if you could remove the cups, you can't get
replacements. They've never been listed in the Shimano small parts
catalogs, AFAIK.

Scavenging them from NOS or even new hubs means you don't have to respoke.

Jasper

Squid-in-Training said:

How often do you guys wear your cups out? I've always seen the cones die
first, and then the hub gets loose. The only destroyed cups I've seen come
from when the locknuts unscrew, and the cone gets ground way way into the
cup, fracturing it into sections, usually grinding the ball retainer in with
the balls and races.

If you ride for a while with a loosely adjusted cup/cone, ie the locknut
has worked itself loose and so has the cone, first thing that'll happen is
that there is a large non-standard groove ground into the cone, because
the hardness of the parts isn't designed for only one ball supporting the
entire weight, and you can get brinelling[1] of the cup races if you hop a
few curbs too many while you're overweight and riding on an incredibly
badly adjusted hub.

I've never had it happen on a front wheel though.

I think cones are deliberately made out of less hard steel than the cups,
so they're the ones that lose.

Jasper

[1] ObJobstDisclaimer. I'm pretty convinced this must be actual brinelling
rather than fretting, though, since wheels don't have preferred positions
and so the balls aren't normally always-in-nearly-the-same-place.