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stomach-shrinking operations have skyrocketed in recent years

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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19 October 2005
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  1. http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/357217p-304286c.html

    Death's fat chance

    By PAUL H.B. SHIN
    DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

    The number of stomach-shrinking operations for the severely obese has
    skyrocketed in recent years, partly fueled by extreme makeovers of
    once-portly celebrities such as weatherman Al Roker, singer Carnie
    Wilson and "American Idol" judge Randy Jackson.

    But these surgeries are riskier than previously thought - especially
    for the elderly and those suffering from heart disease - with nearly
    1 in 20 Medicare patients dying within the first year after the
    surgery, a new study shows.

    Previous reports from a limited number of surgeons have suggested the
    risk of death was about 1 in 100 to 1 in 500.

    But the new study looked at more than 16,000 patients who received
    procedures while on Medicare - federal insurance for the elderly and
    disabled.

    "Patients aged 65 or older face a nearly three-fold increase in the
    risk of early mortality," said lead researcher Dr. David Flum of the
    University of Washington.

    Flum also found that men are nearly twice as likely to die following
    such procedures - known as bariatric surgery - as opposed to women.
    And the surgeon's experience dramatically affects survival, according
    to research in today's Journal of the American Medical Association.

    The study also found that more than 5% of men and nearly 3% of women
    ages 35 to 44 were dead within a year. And slightly higher rates were
    found in patients 45 to 54.

    "This is very valuable information," said Dr. Christine Ren, director
    of the Program for Surgical Weight Loss at NYU Medical Center. "All the
    numbers that we've know before were from selected surgeons or
    institutions with good results." Ren's center performs the largest
    number of "gastric banding" operations in the U.S. - a reversible
    procedure where a band is placed around the stomach to reduce its size.

    In Washington State, for example, patients whose surgeons had performed
    fewer than 20 procedures were nearly five times as likely to die within
    30 days after the operation.

    "It is clear that this is complicated surgery. It's also clear that
    with any complicated surgery the experience of the surgeon is key,"
    said Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), who has lost 103 pounds since his
    high-profile gastric bypass in August 2002.

    Despite the greater risk than previously thought, both Ren and Flum
    agreed that bariatric surgery can be a safe and effective tool for the
    morbidly obese, who face serious health problems if they don't lose
    weight.

    A separate study in the same journal showed that the number of
    bariatric surgeries in the U.S. has ballooned from 13,365 in 1998 to
    72,177 in 2002. The study, led by Dr. Heena Santry of the University of
    Chicago, projected the number would skyrocket to 218,000 by 2010.

    Anti-obesity shot in the works

    Babies could one day get a vaccine to keep them from getting fat,
    researchers said yesterday.

    That's because obese people have been found to have a certain virus
    more often than people of normal weight, Agence France-Press reported.
    If the viral infection is indeed one of the causes of obesity, the
    researchers said a vaccine could be created to battle it, according to
    the French press agency.

    The research was presented yesterday in Canada at a conference of the
    Obesity Society, a Maryland-based medical organization.

    ***

    TC

  2. Hey tunderbar,

    Aside from the kicker in the end about a Fat Vaccine, this story is
    just another look at the same research as your other post. If you're
    elderly, you tend to have worse surgical outcomes anyway, so I think
    it's not surprising that eldery bariatric patients have worse outcomes.
    If you do a surgery on a few people, with the pioneers of the
    proceedure and ideal patients, you get better results. If you rush it
    into mass production, you tend to enter an age of shoddy (not
    suggesting this is the case, but the outcomes are not as good as they
    used to be, at the same time as more are being performed). I expect
    that as more get done and time passes, outcomes will improve. That's
    the general trend among any surgical proceedures.

    On the vaccine bit, now that's interesting. Fat retention is viral?
    Interesting if it's true.

    -Hollywood

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/357217p-304286c.html

  3. Quoted message said:

    Hey tunderbar,

    Aside from the kicker in the end about a Fat Vaccine, this story is
    just another look at the same research as your other post.

    Two takes and two important points from the same study.

    Quoted message said:

    If you're
    elderly, you tend to have worse surgical outcomes anyway, so I think
    it's not surprising that eldery bariatric patients have worse outcomes.

    Nope, but the 5% dead after one year for the rest is shocking.

    Quoted message said:

    If you do a surgery on a few people, with the pioneers of the
    proceedure and ideal patients, you get better results. If you rush it
    into mass production, you tend to enter an age of shoddy (not
    suggesting this is the case, but the outcomes are not as good as they
    used to be, at the same time as more are being performed). I expect
    that as more get done and time passes, outcomes will improve. That's
    the general trend among any surgical proceedures.

    Sure, but 5% dead after one year?

    Quoted message said:


    On the vaccine bit, now that's interesting. Fat retention is viral?
    Interesting if it's true.

    Come on. Viral? Why aren't the calorie supporters screaming blue bloody
    murder on that little statement? You know, like they do when someone
    suggests that refined carbs may have something to do with obsity. The
    silly viral [censored] is just more BS like when they try to attribute
    obesity to a gene or to dishonesty by the dieter. It is [censored] and is
    intended to get the public to believe that obesity is out of the hands
    and they should resign themselves to being fat and sufferr from all the
    obesity related diseases that make Pharma ans doctors rich.

    Quoted message said:


    -Hollywood

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/357217p-304286c.html

  4. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::: Hey tunderbar,
    :::
    ::: Aside from the kicker in the end about a Fat Vaccine, this story is
    ::: just another look at the same research as your other post.
    ::
    :: Two takes and two important points from the same study.
    ::
    ::: If you're
    ::: elderly, you tend to have worse surgical outcomes anyway, so I think
    ::: it's not surprising that eldery bariatric patients have worse
    ::: outcomes.
    ::
    :: Nope, but the 5% dead after one year for the rest is shocking.
    ::
    ::: If you do a surgery on a few people, with the pioneers of the
    ::: proceedure and ideal patients, you get better results. If you rush
    ::: it into mass production, you tend to enter an age of shoddy (not
    ::: suggesting this is the case, but the outcomes are not as good as
    ::: they used to be, at the same time as more are being performed). I
    ::: expect that as more get done and time passes, outcomes will
    ::: improve. That's the general trend among any surgical proceedures.
    ::
    :: Sure, but 5% dead after one year?

    Don't for get that this type of surgery is more often than not justified on
    the basis of having little to no chance of surviving anyway (without
    surgery). In that light (if you buy it), 5% isn't so bad, in fact, I'd say
    it's good. However, I'd still say that this type of surgery is taken as an
    easy option by some.

    ::
    :::
    ::: On the vaccine bit, now that's interesting. Fat retention is viral?
    ::: Interesting if it's true.
    ::
    :: Come on. Viral? Why aren't the calorie supporters screaming blue
    :: bloody murder on that little statement? You know, like they do when
    :: someone suggests that refined carbs may have something to do with
    :: obsity. The silly viral [censored] is just more BS like when they try to
    :: attribute obesity to a gene or to dishonesty by the dieter. It is
    :: [censored] and is intended to get the public to believe that obesity is
    :: out of the hands and they should resign themselves to being fat and
    :: sufferr from all the obesity related diseases that make Pharma ans
    :: doctors rich.
    ::
    :::
    ::: -Hollywood
    :::
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    :::: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/357217p-304286c.html

  5. 19 Oct 2005 said:

    Hey tunderbar,

    On the vaccine bit, now that's interesting. Fat retention is viral?
    Interesting if it's true.

    I hadn't seen anything on that research. But oddly enough in 2000 I was
    posting about a fat chicken virus (adenovirus-36) and wondering if there
    was a possible connection with an inexplicably fat dog my parents had.
    (no, overfeeding wasn't a possible explanation).

    I guess someone else wondered if it could be a factor in human obesity as
    well.

    Martha

    --

  6. Martha S. Gallagher said:
    19 Oct 2005 said:

    Hey tunderbar,

    On the vaccine bit, now that's interesting. Fat retention is viral?
    Interesting if it's true.

    I hadn't seen anything on that research. But oddly enough in 2000 I was
    posting about a fat chicken virus (adenovirus-36) and wondering if there
    was a possible connection with an inexplicably fat dog my parents had.
    (no, overfeeding wasn't a possible explanation).

    I guess someone else wondered if it could be a factor in human obesity as
    well.

    Martha

    I'll bet dollars to donuts that if you checked the dog food, the
    primary ingredient was corn.

    TC

  7. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: Martha S. Gallagher wrote:
    ::: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 [email hidden] wrote:
    :::
    :::: Hey tunderbar,
    ::::
    :::: On the vaccine bit, now that's interesting. Fat retention is viral?
    :::: Interesting if it's true.
    :::
    ::: I hadn't seen anything on that research. But oddly enough in 2000 I
    ::: was posting about a fat chicken virus (adenovirus-36) and wondering
    ::: if there was a possible connection with an inexplicably fat dog my
    ::: parents had. (no, overfeeding wasn't a possible explanation).
    :::
    ::: I guess someone else wondered if it could be a factor in human
    ::: obesity as well.
    :::
    ::: Martha
    ::
    :: I'll bet dollars to donuts that if you checked the dog food, the
    :: primary ingredient was corn.

    Wow...I'd make the same bet. Poor mutt.

  8. On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 [email hidden] wrote:

    ;
    ;Martha S. Gallagher wrote:

    ;> I hadn't seen anything on that research. But oddly enough in 2000 I was
    ;> posting about a fat chicken virus (adenovirus-36) and wondering if there
    ;> was a possible connection with an inexplicably fat dog my parents had.
    ;> (no, overfeeding wasn't a possible explanation).
    ;>
    ;> I guess someone else wondered if it could be a factor in human obesity as
    ;> well.
    ;>
    ;I'll bet dollars to donuts that if you checked the dog food, the
    ;primary ingredient was corn.
    ;

    Well, it was 5 years ago and my mother is no longer around to ask, but 1.
    my mother was pretty clued in on that sort of thing and 2. the other dogs
    weren't particularly stout.

    I don't think *anyone* thinks that human obesity is simply caused by
    infection with a particular virus. For starters, from what I remember
    reading at the time, there was a genetic component to whether or not the
    chickens got fat. Why is it so improbable that obesity is a multi-factoral
    syndrome and that one contributing factor *could* be a virus?

    It doesn't lessen our personal responsibility. I know that, whatever the
    reason, I am prone to getting fat. I've made serious modifications in my
    diet and lifestyle to get that under control. Whether the underlying cause
    is a virus or an eating disorder, for now, the only solution is making
    calorie intake lower than or equal to output.

    Martha

    --

  9. Quoted message said:

    Come on. Viral? Why aren't the calorie supporters screaming blue bloody
    murder on that little statement? You know, like they do when someone
    suggests that refined carbs may have something to do with obsity. The
    silly viral [censored] is just more BS like when they try to attribute
    obesity to a gene or to dishonesty by the dieter. It is [censored] and is
    intended to get the public to believe that obesity is out of the hands
    and they should resign themselves to being fat and sufferr from all the
    obesity related diseases that make Pharma ans doctors rich.

    You're the one who posted it. Ignoring intent, I missed your name on
    the study that suggested it and I missed your credentials for disputing
    their find. As I read it, regurgitated through the NY Daily Rag as it
    is, the virus is present in people, more frequently fat people than
    thin people, and it warrants further investigation, with a potential
    end result of a vaccine against obesity, like you get one against TB or
    whooping cough. I don't know enough to buy or sell and unless you have
    info not presented here, I would suggest that you don't either. If you
    do, perhaps you can explain why some people can eat refined carbs up
    the wazzoo, not move around, and go 17 BMI while others need to
    exercise, monitor carbs, and be very diligent. If there's a virus and a
    correlation, why not?

    -Hollywood

  10. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::
    ::: Come on. Viral? Why aren't the calorie supporters screaming blue
    ::: bloody murder on that little statement? You know, like they do when
    ::: someone suggests that refined carbs may have something to do with
    ::: obsity. The silly viral [censored] is just more BS like when they try to
    ::: attribute obesity to a gene or to dishonesty by the dieter. It is
    ::: [censored] and is intended to get the public to believe that obesity is
    ::: out of the hands and they should resign themselves to being fat and
    ::: sufferr from all the obesity related diseases that make Pharma ans
    ::: doctors rich.
    ::
    :: You're the one who posted it. Ignoring intent, I missed your name on
    :: the study that suggested it and I missed your credentials for
    :: disputing their find. As I read it, regurgitated through the NY
    :: Daily Rag as it is, the virus is present in people, more frequently
    :: fat people than thin people, and it warrants further investigation,
    :: with a potential end result of a vaccine against obesity, like you
    :: get one against TB or whooping cough. I don't know enough to buy or
    :: sell and unless you have info not presented here, I would suggest
    :: that you don't either. If you do, perhaps you can explain why some
    :: people can eat refined carbs up the wazzoo, not move around, and go
    :: 17 BMI while others need to exercise, monitor carbs, and be very
    :: diligent. If there's a virus and a correlation, why not?

    A virus might tend to make one insulin resistant or cause some other
    metabolic malady that would then predispose one to eventual weight gain.

  11. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Come on. Viral? Why aren't the calorie supporters screaming blue bloody
    murder on that little statement? You know, like they do when someone
    suggests that refined carbs may have something to do with obsity. The
    silly viral [censored] is just more BS like when they try to attribute
    obesity to a gene or to dishonesty by the dieter. It is [censored] and is
    intended to get the public to believe that obesity is out of the hands
    and they should resign themselves to being fat and sufferr from all the
    obesity related diseases that make Pharma ans doctors rich.

    You're the one who posted it. Ignoring intent, I missed your name on
    the study that suggested it and I missed your credentials for disputing
    their find. As I read it, regurgitated through the NY Daily Rag as it
    is, the virus is present in people, more frequently fat people than
    thin people, and it warrants further investigation, with a potential
    end result of a vaccine against obesity, like you get one against TB or
    whooping cough. I don't know enough to buy or sell and unless you have
    info not presented here, I would suggest that you don't either.

    If you

    Quoted message said:

    do, perhaps you can explain why some people can eat refined carbs up
    the wazzoo, not move around, and go 17 BMI while others need to
    exercise, monitor carbs, and be very diligent. If there's a virus and a
    correlation, why not?

    -Hollywood

    Do you have any actual data to support your hypothesis that some people
    can eat a lot of carbs not gain weight while others eat lost of carbs
    and do gain weight? Or are you just making this up as you go?

    TC

  12. Quoted message said:


    On the vaccine bit, now that's interesting. Fat retention is viral?
    Interesting if it's true.

    I remember when folks dissed the idea that ulcers
    might be caused by bacertia. Until one day a
    scientist caused a case of ulcers with a dose of
    the correct bacteria.

    I figure there are many contributing factors to
    fat retention. Some are age related, many folks
    start gaining at some age without eating more.
    Others are related to insulin resistance. Why not
    have a virus that changes your metabolism enough
    to switch from maintaining at some caloric intake
    level to gaining at the same level ... I sure
    don't imagine that vaccinating everyone would mean
    an entire generation free of obesity.

  13. "Martha S. Gallagher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't think *anyone* thinks that human obesity is simply caused by
    infection with a particular virus. For starters, from what I remember
    reading at the time, there was a genetic component to whether or not the
    chickens got fat. Why is it so improbable that obesity is a multi-factoral
    syndrome and that one contributing factor *could* be a virus?

    It doesn't lessen our personal responsibility. I know that, whatever the
    reason, I am prone to getting fat. I've made serious modifications in my
    diet and lifestyle to get that under control. Whether the underlying cause
    is a virus or an eating disorder, for now, the only solution is making
    calorie intake lower than or equal to output.

    When I read about the virus a while back, they were saying the people who
    had the virus not only got fat, their cholesterol went abnormally low. I
    don't think everyone who is fat has a virus that caused it, but some
    probably do.

    --
    No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes

  14. You gotta be [censored] me. You've never had the friend that eats
    whatever and doesn't gain? My brother eats pretty much whatever and his
    weight fluctuates about 6 lbs at the most. He can't put weight on when
    he tries. My friend Eugenio eats whatever, drinks more than whatever,
    and was on the low side of normal weight. He took up marathon training
    and lost nothing. You couldn't tell the difference between before and
    after. Guy gains more by growing his hair out than by eating carb rich
    food and drinking carb rich Budweiser to the point of black outs.

    I do not have a study of this, but I don't go looking for a lot of
    studies. I have observational data. Dismiss at will, but it happens.

    You want some other data along this. People have variable CCLL and CCLM
    numbers. Those numbers are somewhat correlated with sex, lightly
    correlated with weight and height. There is something else in there.
    Explain the difference.

    I'm not saying "It's gotta be a virus" but frankly, there is only so
    much we know about nutrition (by we, I mean those of us who are willing
    to admit we don't know it all, so you might not be in that we). And, if
    you didn't want to talk about it, why post it in the first place.

    -Hollywood, willing to listen when he doesn't actually know.

    Quoted message said:

    Do you have any actual data to support your hypothesis that some people
    can eat a lot of carbs not gain weight while others eat lost of carbs
    and do gain weight? Or are you just making this up as you go?

    TC

  15. I guess you never noticed that those who eat a lot and don't gain
    weight are not necessarily eating carbs. I have. Every time I go to a
    buffet or a BBQ I can't help but see how the large heaps of carbs
    correlate clearly to the eaters sizes. Every time I go to any
    restaurant, especially the fast foods, you can see the larger people
    eating or drinking more carbs while the thinner ones will be eating
    fewer carbs. Once you notice it, it is so obvious that is absolutely
    surreal.

    Did you see the movie "Super-Size Me"? So many scenes just screamed out
    at me about carbs. The one that really caught my attention was when the
    star is talking to a 400 or 500 lb guy being prepped for stomach
    stapling surgery. The star was sipping from what looked like a gallon
    jug of soda with the McDonalds logo on it. The patient says to the star
    that he used to drink 52 of those per week. In the next scene, the
    stars doctor sees how badly the star looks and how his condition has
    deteriorated and comments about how he would never have believed that a
    "high fat" diet could cause so many problems so quickly. A high fat
    diet! What about the gallon jugs of soda? Super sizing a meal involves
    a huge amount of soda and tons of fries. It does not involve adding any
    fatty stuff like cheese, bacon or beef. It involves huge amounts of
    extra carbs.

    We are so blinded to carbs that it boggles the mind.

    TC

    Quoted message said:

    You gotta be [censored] me. You've never had the friend that eats
    whatever and doesn't gain? My brother eats pretty much whatever and his
    weight fluctuates about 6 lbs at the most. He can't put weight on when
    he tries. My friend Eugenio eats whatever, drinks more than whatever,
    and was on the low side of normal weight. He took up marathon training
    and lost nothing. You couldn't tell the difference between before and
    after. Guy gains more by growing his hair out than by eating carb rich
    food and drinking carb rich Budweiser to the point of black outs.

    I do not have a study of this, but I don't go looking for a lot of
    studies. I have observational data. Dismiss at will, but it happens.

    You want some other data along this. People have variable CCLL and CCLM
    numbers. Those numbers are somewhat correlated with sex, lightly
    correlated with weight and height. There is something else in there.
    Explain the difference.

    I'm not saying "It's gotta be a virus" but frankly, there is only so
    much we know about nutrition (by we, I mean those of us who are willing
    to admit we don't know it all, so you might not be in that we). And, if
    you didn't want to talk about it, why post it in the first place.

    -Hollywood, willing to listen when he doesn't actually know.

    Quoted message said:

    Do you have any actual data to support your hypothesis that some people
    can eat a lot of carbs not gain weight while others eat lost of carbs
    and do gain weight? Or are you just making this up as you go?

    TC

  16. 20 Oct 2005 said:

    You gotta be [censored] me. You've never had the friend that eats
    whatever and doesn't gain? My brother eats pretty much whatever and his
    weight fluctuates about 6 lbs at the most. He can't put weight on when
    he tries. My friend Eugenio eats whatever, drinks more than whatever,
    and was on the low side of normal weight. He took up marathon training
    and lost nothing. You couldn't tell the difference between before and
    after. Guy gains more by growing his hair out than by eating carb rich
    food and drinking carb rich Budweiser to the point of black outs.

    I do not have a study of this, but I don't go looking for a lot of
    studies. I have observational data. Dismiss at will, but it happens.

    There was a prisoner experiment in which they deliberately overfed normal
    weight male prisoners. The men for the most part gained less weight than
    one would expect based on the calorie surplus and lost the weight fairly
    easily once the overfeeding was ended.

    Some people really do seem to have spendthrift metabolisms.

  17. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: I guess you never noticed that those who eat a lot and don't gain
    :: weight are not necessarily eating carbs. I have. Every time I go to a
    :: buffet or a BBQ I can't help but see how the large heaps of carbs
    :: correlate clearly to the eaters sizes. Every time I go to any
    :: restaurant, especially the fast foods, you can see the larger people
    :: eating or drinking more carbs while the thinner ones will be eating
    :: fewer carbs. Once you notice it, it is so obvious that is absolutely
    :: surreal.

    I agree that they larger people are generally eating lots of carbs...and
    lots of food, too. The smaller people may be eating lots of carbs, but
    their cut-off switch works and they generally don't overeat, even though, by
    our standards, they're eating lots of carbs..

    ::
    :: Did you see the movie "Super-Size Me"? So many scenes just screamed
    :: out at me about carbs. The one that really caught my attention was
    :: when the star is talking to a 400 or 500 lb guy being prepped for
    :: stomach stapling surgery. The star was sipping from what looked like
    :: a gallon jug of soda with the McDonalds logo on it. The patient says
    :: to the star that he used to drink 52 of those per week. In the next
    :: scene, the stars doctor sees how badly the star looks and how his
    :: condition has deteriorated and comments about how he would never
    :: have believed that a "high fat" diet could cause so many problems so
    :: quickly. A high fat diet! What about the gallon jugs of soda? Super
    :: sizing a meal involves a huge amount of soda and tons of fries. It
    :: does not involve adding any fatty stuff like cheese, bacon or beef.
    :: It involves huge amounts of extra carbs.
    ::

    That's not exactly true, TC. Supersizing a meal involves a huge amount of
    carbs and FAT, combined together to result in a excess of calories.

    :: We are so blinded to carbs that it boggles the mind.

    I won't disagree there, because for the most part, it's very true.

    ::
    :: TC
    ::
    :: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::: You gotta be [censored] me. You've never had the friend that eats
    ::: whatever and doesn't gain? My brother eats pretty much whatever and
    ::: his weight fluctuates about 6 lbs at the most. He can't put weight
    ::: on when he tries. My friend Eugenio eats whatever, drinks more than
    ::: whatever, and was on the low side of normal weight. He took up
    ::: marathon training and lost nothing. You couldn't tell the
    ::: difference between before and after. Guy gains more by growing his
    ::: hair out than by eating carb rich food and drinking carb rich
    ::: Budweiser to the point of black outs.
    :::
    ::: I do not have a study of this, but I don't go looking for a lot of
    ::: studies. I have observational data. Dismiss at will, but it happens.
    :::
    ::: You want some other data along this. People have variable CCLL and
    ::: CCLM numbers. Those numbers are somewhat correlated with sex,
    ::: lightly correlated with weight and height. There is something else
    ::: in there. Explain the difference.
    :::
    ::: I'm not saying "It's gotta be a virus" but frankly, there is only so
    ::: much we know about nutrition (by we, I mean those of us who are
    ::: willing to admit we don't know it all, so you might not be in that
    ::: we). And, if you didn't want to talk about it, why post it in the
    ::: first place.
    :::
    ::: -Hollywood, willing to listen when he doesn't actually know.
    :::
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    :::: Do you have any actual data to support your hypothesis that some
    :::: people can eat a lot of carbs not gain weight while others eat
    :::: lost of carbs and do gain weight? Or are you just making this up
    :::: as you go?
    ::::
    :::: TC

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