General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Zocor - evil, evil, evil

Started by Dan Abel · · Last activity · 85 posts · 1,570 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
24 October 2005
Last activity
28 October 2005
Original author
Dan Abel
Posts
85
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  1. There's that GOUT thing again.

    Is it common to guys in RFC ?
    I've also experienced the "roofing nail in the foot".

    I have a list of forbidden foods; turkey, sausage, beans etc.
    Mr Gout only visits after a "stack-up"
    ie; Bean soup, sausage next day, leftover bean soup,
    turkey sammich next day, GOUT !

    And just when nutritionists are saying;
    "Eat more beans... eat more turkey !"

    On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:47:08 GMT, "Paul M. Cook" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Dimitri" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Puester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dan Abel wrote:
    The problem isn't so much with the doctor, it's with getting old.
    > I don't advise it.
    >
    > :-)
    >

    Yeah, but it sure beats the alternative!

    If I don't wake up with joint pain, I have to pinch
    myself hard to make sure I'm alive.

    FWIW, I have taken Zocor in the past and now Lipitor
    without side effects that I'm aware of. My diuretic
    did give me gout but, hey, there's a pill for that, too....

    :-(
    gloria p

    Ya me too gout that is - In order, the things that aggravate the uric acid


    build

    Quoted message said:

    up (AKA The Gout)

    Alcohol
    Coffee
    Not enough water
    Diet. (shellfish etc)

    Don't forget tomatoes. I gave myself a bad case of gout 3 years ago while
    feasting on a glut of really good tomatoes.

    Paul

    <rj>

  2. Stark said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar

    Quoted message said:

    Do you really think there is collusion among all the medical
    researchers, the govts of the world and the big pharmas to suppress
    cures for things like cancer, diabetes, AIDS, and heart disease?


    Probably. But the peptic ulcer case is definitive proof, unless of
    course you persist with your "faith-based" facts. Can't argue with a
    wing nut; just need to indict 'em.

    The problem of all conspiracies is that some one on the inside all
    ways talks. And I think that if this conspiracy has been going on
    since the 50s ( per your statements), there should have been a whistle
    blower by now.

    Now if you were to state that you were the man on the grassy knoll,
    you might add some weight to your arguments.

    Pan Ohco


  3. Quoted message said:

    And of course, there's even people who live in other countries besides
    the US and Canada.

    Got any cites to support that allegation?

    Paul

  4. "Boron Elgar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Stark said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar

    Quoted message said:

    Do you really think there is collusion among all the medical
    researchers, the govts of the world and the big pharmas to suppress
    cures for things like cancer, diabetes, AIDS, and heart disease?


    Probably. But the peptic ulcer case is definitive proof, unless of
    course you persist with your "faith-based" facts. Can't argue with a
    wing nut; just need to indict 'em.

    You have definitive proof? Let's see it.

    I have provided facts, not tin-foil hat ravings. If you have facts to
    back up your claims, then present them. Until then, you offer
    unsubstantiated nonsense.

    You presented not one fact. You provided an emotional reaction to a fact.
    The fact being that the AMA suppressed a cure for ulcers for 20 years
    because it would have had a direct and severe impact on the drug industry.
    Even in the 1980s the cure rate from the treatment being employed in
    Australia was in the 10s of thousands and nobody fied from taking bismuth
    and a common antibiotic. Yet the AMA stonewalled.

    Paul

  5. Paul M. Cook said:

    Conspiracy theory! Conspiracy theory!

    Shame on you. To even imply the drug industry put profits above people is
    shameless and unamerican. You rat-commie [censored]!

    Paul


    Paul, Paul,Paul. Please watch your language. That Rat [censored] Commie!
    Not rat commie [censored]. :-)

    Pan Ohco

  6. In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar

    Quoted message said:
    Stark said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar

    Quoted message said:

    Do you really think there is collusion among all the medical
    researchers, the govts of the world and the big pharmas to suppress
    cures for things like cancer, diabetes, AIDS, and heart disease?


    Probably. But the peptic ulcer case is definitive proof, unless of
    course you persist with your "faith-based" facts. Can't argue with a
    wing nut; just need to indict 'em.

    You have definitive proof? Let's see it.

    I have provided facts, not tin-foil hat ravings. If you have facts to
    back up your claims, then present them. Until then, you offer
    unsubstantiated nonsense.

    Boron

    [censored]!

  7. In article <[email hidden]>, Pan Ohco

    Quoted message said:
    Stark said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar

    Quoted message said:

    Do you really think there is collusion among all the medical
    researchers, the govts of the world and the big pharmas to suppress
    cures for things like cancer, diabetes, AIDS, and heart disease?


    Probably. But the peptic ulcer case is definitive proof, unless of
    course you persist with your "faith-based" facts. Can't argue with a
    wing nut; just need to indict 'em.

    The problem of all conspiracies is that some one on the inside all
    ways talks. And I think that if this conspiracy has been going on
    since the 50s ( per your statements), there should have been a whistle
    blower by now.

    Now if you were to state that you were the man on the grassy knoll,
    you might add some weight to your arguments.

    Pan Ohco

    No grassy knoll, whatever that is, but I have seen a swift boat, once.

  8. Stark said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar

    Quoted message said:
    Stark said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > Do you really think there is collusion among all the medical
    > researchers, the govts of the world and the big pharmas to suppress
    > cures for things like cancer, diabetes, AIDS, and heart disease?
    >
    Probably. But the peptic ulcer case is definitive proof, unless of
    course you persist with your "faith-based" facts. Can't argue with a
    wing nut; just need to indict 'em.

    You have definitive proof? Let's see it.

    I have provided facts, not tin-foil hat ravings. If you have facts to
    back up your claims, then present them. Until then, you offer
    unsubstantiated nonsense.

    Boron

    [censored]!

    Refute anything I said. I have provided dates and names. Try proving
    me wrong.

    Boron

  9. "Pan Ohco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul M. Cook said:

    Conspiracy theory! Conspiracy theory!

    Shame on you. To even imply the drug industry put profits above people is
    shameless and unamerican. You rat-commie [censored]!

    Paul


    Paul, Paul,Paul. Please watch your language. That Rat [censored] Commie!
    Not rat commie [censored]. :-)

    Pan Ohco

    Oh come on - Where's your sense of adventure. Have you never participated in
    KCFCW?

    Kill a Commie For Christ Week - Hell it's great fun - now that the cold war is
    over they've taken all the fun. Maybe we can find another enemy to replace
    those Rat Commie [censored].

    What do you think?

    Dimitri

  10. Dimitri said:

    Kill a Commie For Christ Week -
    Dimitri


    No no, it's "Nuke a Gay Whale for Jesus"

  11. Dimitri said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Shame on you. To even imply the drug industry put profits above people is
    shameless and unamerican. You rat-commie [censored]!

    Paul


    Paul, Paul,Paul. Please watch your language. That Rat [censored] Commie!
    Not rat commie [censored]. :-)

    Pan Ohco

    Oh come on - Where's your sense of adventure. Have you never participated in
    KCFCW?

    Kill a Commie For Christ Week - Hell it's great fun - now that the cold war is
    over they've taken all the fun. Maybe we can find another enemy to replace
    those Rat Commie [censored].

    What do you think?

    Dimitri

    Yeah, but who Dimitri? This group is too international for us to pick
    who the next target is to be. Or we could pick, but we could not
    announce it here. People tend to become violent, if you target
    them.(damm sore heads)

    Pan Ohco

  12. Stark said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar

    Quoted message said:
    Stark said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Boron Elgar
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > Do you really think there is collusion among all the medical
    > researchers, the govts of the world and the big pharmas to suppress
    > cures for things like cancer, diabetes, AIDS, and heart disease?
    >
    Probably. But the peptic ulcer case is definitive proof, unless of
    course you persist with your "faith-based" facts. Can't argue with a
    wing nut; just need to indict 'em.

    You have definitive proof? Let's see it.

    I have provided facts, not tin-foil hat ravings. If you have facts to
    back up your claims, then present them. Until then, you offer
    unsubstantiated nonsense.

    Boron

    [censored]!

    Still waiting for you, sugar....

    Boron

    "Refute anything I said. I have provided dates and names. Try proving
    me wrong."

  13. Pan Ohco said:
    Dimitri said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Shame on you. To even imply the drug industry put profits above people is
    >shameless and unamerican. You rat-commie [censored]!
    >
    >Paul
    >

    Paul, Paul,Paul. Please watch your language. That Rat [censored] Commie!
    Not rat commie [censored]. :-)

    Pan Ohco

    Oh come on - Where's your sense of adventure. Have you never participated in
    KCFCW?

    Kill a Commie For Christ Week - Hell it's great fun - now that the cold war is
    over they've taken all the fun. Maybe we can find another enemy to replace
    those Rat Commie [censored].

    What do you think?

    Dimitri

    Yeah, but who Dimitri? This group is too international for us to pick
    who the next target is to be. Or we could pick, but we could not
    announce it here. People tend to become violent, if you target
    them.(damm sore heads)

    Pan Ohco


    They already have become violent, even before they were targeted.

    --
    Del Cecchi
    "This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
    strategies or opinions.”

  14. Dimitri said:


    "Dan Abel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Yeah. The problem isn't so much with the doctor, it's with getting old.
    I don't advise it.

    :-)

    --
    Dan Abel

    No kidding [censored] Tracy where did you get the clue.

    To the middle aged out there do your best to avoid getting old. It ain't
    all its cracked up to be.

    Dimitri

    I believe the technical term is "sucks."

    ---jkb

    --
    "Damn you, brocolli!"
    -- Stewie Griffin

  15. In article <y5Q7f.16009$Io4.7733@trnddc06>,

    Paul M. Cook said:


    You presented not one fact. You provided an emotional reaction to a fact.
    The fact being that the AMA suppressed a cure for ulcers for 20 years
    because it would have had a direct and severe impact on the drug industry.
    Even in the 1980s the cure rate from the treatment being employed in
    Australia was in the 10s of thousands and nobody fied from taking bismuth
    and a common antibiotic. Yet the AMA stonewalled.

    Paul

    That's interesting. How do you know this?

  16. "Stan Horwitz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <y5Q7f.16009$Io4.7733@trnddc06>,

    Paul M. Cook said:


    You presented not one fact. You provided an emotional reaction to a


    fact.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The fact being that the AMA suppressed a cure for ulcers for 20 years
    because it would have had a direct and severe impact on the drug


    industry.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Even in the 1980s the cure rate from the treatment being employed in
    Australia was in the 10s of thousands and nobody fied from taking


    bismuth

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and a common antibiotic. Yet the AMA stonewalled.

    Paul

    That's interesting. How do you know this?

    It's been around since I first read it 21 years ago. It's not new, it was
    almost a scandal. The AMA capitulated finally and allowed limited trials.
    It was only when the trials produced exceptional results that they finally
    approved the therapy. And this is just one example of many. How many
    people had to endure a medical condition that was treatable? Why did it
    take 20 years for the treatment using common and proven safe (also very
    cheap) drugs to be approved? Public safety has to be preserved sure but
    this was just ridiculous.

    There is the case of an invention that safely removed plaque from the walls
    of severely clogged arteries. It required a simple surgical procedure very
    much like an angioplasty (which itself is not entirely safe) but it is
    permanent in that it removes the plaque by turning it into a loose
    suspension using high frequency sound and then suctioning it away. It was
    shelved by the FDA and the AMA without reason and some researchers insisted
    it was because the drug companies were pushing and lobbying against it
    because it would have affected sales of their plaque reducing drugs.

    Then we have the case of marijuana. Here is a plant that has proven medical
    benefits. It treats glaucoma, it alleviates severe nausea in chemo
    patients, it has been shown to be an effective anti-depressant, it has
    helped cure fibromyalgia, it has shown promise in helping patients with
    chronic pain syndrome. And the list goes on. Yet it is not even considered
    as a potential therapy because everything it does is also done by incredibly
    expensive drugs already on the market many of which do no perform nearly as
    well as marijuana does. The drug companies have the most lobbyists in
    Washington and this is no coincidence.

    There are plenty more stories like these. It's all out there one just has
    to do a little research.

    Paul

  17. Paul M. Cook said:

    It's been around since I first read it 21 years ago. It's not new, it was
    almost a scandal.

    A lot of things change over time. We treat many disorders differently
    now than we did 21 years ago. That doesn't mean a thing, except we're
    always learning and using evidence based practice. Do you see conspiracy
    in each and every change of protocol? Adding beta blockers to a heart
    attack patient's early treatment must have sent you over the edge, eh?

    Quoted message said:

    There is the case of an invention that safely removed plaque from the walls
    of severely clogged arteries. It required a simple surgical procedure very
    much like an angioplasty (which itself is not entirely safe) but it is
    permanent in that it removes the plaque by turning it into a loose
    suspension using high frequency sound and then suctioning it away. It was
    shelved by the FDA and the AMA without reason and some researchers insisted
    it was because the drug companies were pushing and lobbying against it
    because it would have affected sales of their plaque reducing drugs.

    Alarms going off in my head here. What were the outcomes? Didn't that
    procedure send a lot of emboli into the circulation that causes
    additional life threatening risks? Yup.. sure could. Perhaps it was a
    conspiracy by the stent manufacturers! We have drug eluding stents now,
    as well as drugs yet we still learn more daily.

    Quoted message said:


    Then we have the case of marijuana.

    Hmmmm.. methinks thou hast an ax to grind here?
    I'll tell you straight. I recieve NO benefit from the use of one
    treatment over another in my patients. I DO see results. We treat PUD
    totally different now and it is because we know more, not because of
    who's lobbying for it.
    Goomba

  18. Paul M. Cook said:


    "Stan Horwitz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <y5Q7f.16009$Io4.7733@trnddc06>,

    Paul M. Cook said:


    You presented not one fact. You provided an emotional reaction to a


    fact.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The fact being that the AMA suppressed a cure for ulcers for 20 years
    because it would have had a direct and severe impact on the drug


    industry.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Even in the 1980s the cure rate from the treatment being employed in
    Australia was in the 10s of thousands and nobody fied from taking


    bismuth

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and a common antibiotic. Yet the AMA stonewalled.

    Paul

    That's interesting. How do you know this?

    It's been around since I first read it 21 years ago. It's not new, it was
    almost a scandal. The AMA capitulated finally and allowed limited trials.
    It was only when the trials produced exceptional results that they finally
    approved the therapy. And this is just one example of many. How many
    people had to endure a medical condition that was treatable? Why did it
    take 20 years for the treatment using common and proven safe (also very
    cheap) drugs to be approved? Public safety has to be preserved sure but
    this was just ridiculous.

    There is nothing in the literature about this. I have been around for
    56 years and doing research with physicians and hospitals for 33 of
    them. Find this anywhere and prove it. If it was so scandalous, why
    isn't it written up anywhere in the medical literature?

    http://www.tallpoppies.net.au/cavalcade/warren.htm

    The above article is about the Aussies who cultured Helicobacter
    pylori in 1982. Within 5 years of this, and further experiments by
    them, the idea had been thoroughly tested & treatment patterns
    changed. You are completely misinformed and incorrect in your claims.

    First of all, the AMA cannot "suppress" anything. It is a professional
    organization with no legal enforcement powers whatsoever. The AMA does
    not "allow" clinical trials. These "trials" as you call them, are
    done at hospitals, universities, pharmas, and other places that have
    business or academic interest in the field of medicine.

    Quoted message said:

    There is the case of an invention that safely removed plaque from the walls
    of severely clogged arteries. It required a simple surgical procedure very
    much like an angioplasty (which itself is not entirely safe) but it is
    permanent in that it removes the plaque by turning it into a loose
    suspension using high frequency sound and then suctioning it away. It was
    shelved by the FDA and the AMA without reason and some researchers insisted
    it was because the drug companies were pushing and lobbying against it
    because it would have affected sales of their plaque reducing drugs.

    The AMA does not shelve anything. The FDA can deny approval to a
    procedure, certainly, though with your usual inaccuracies and
    broad-stroke description, you are making no sense.

    By the way, it is only recently that statins have been proven to
    reduce plaque, so what drugs are you talking about the drug companies
    trying to protect at some time in the past?

    Ultrasound is certainly used to visualize plaque. The whole thing you
    are talking about is absurd. Nothing removes plaque in any
    "permanent" way. If lifestyle and pre-disposition still exist, it can
    re-deposit. Of course angioplasty is not entirely safe. Neither would
    your suctioning system. You go into heart arteries & you have an
    inherently dangerous procedure.

    Quoted message said:


    Then we have the case of marijuana. Here is a plant that has proven medical
    benefits. It treats glaucoma, it alleviates severe nausea in chemo
    patients, it has been shown to be an effective anti-depressant, it has
    helped cure fibromyalgia, it has shown promise in helping patients with
    chronic pain syndrome. And the list goes on. Yet it is not even considered
    as a potential therapy because everything it does is also done by incredibly
    expensive drugs already on the market many of which do no perform nearly as
    well as marijuana does. The drug companies have the most lobbyists in
    Washington and this is no coincidence.

    No one doubts the efficacy of marijuana in certain medical cases you
    twit. The Feds will not allow it to be reclassified. Go smoke a big
    one & perhaps the clarity will come to you in a pipe dream.

    Boron

  19. On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:53:45 -0400, Goomba38 <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Alarms going off in my head here. What were the outcomes? Didn't that
    procedure send a lot of emboli into the circulation that causes
    additional life threatening risks? Yup.. sure could. Perhaps it was a
    conspiracy by the stent manufacturers! We have drug eluding stents now,
    as well as drugs yet we still learn more daily.

    http://www.ptca.org/nv/desnews.html

    There are some interesting and not-so-terrific news bits about those
    stents.

    (My brother has one of the stents in question. He & his surgeon have
    had a nice little chat about it)

    Boron

  20. "Goomba38" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul M. Cook said:

    It's been around since I first read it 21 years ago. It's not new, it


    was

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    almost a scandal.

    A lot of things change over time. We treat many disorders differently
    now than we did 21 years ago. That doesn't mean a thing, except we're
    always learning and using evidence based practice. Do you see conspiracy
    in each and every change of protocol? Adding beta blockers to a heart
    attack patient's early treatment must have sent you over the edge, eh?

    YOU see a conspiracy. I see business as usual. And don't forget the
    Australians were employing that treatment in the 70s. And it hasn't changed
    either since then. There is nothing new about drig company and AMA
    collusion.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    There is the case of an invention that safely removed plaque from the


    walls

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of severely clogged arteries. It required a simple surgical procedure


    very

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    much like an angioplasty (which itself is not entirely safe) but it is
    permanent in that it removes the plaque by turning it into a loose
    suspension using high frequency sound and then suctioning it away. It


    was

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    shelved by the FDA and the AMA without reason and some researchers


    insisted

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it was because the drug companies were pushing and lobbying against it
    because it would have affected sales of their plaque reducing drugs.

    Alarms going off in my head here. What were the outcomes? Didn't that
    procedure send a lot of emboli into the circulation that causes
    additional life threatening risks? Yup.. sure could. Perhaps it was a
    conspiracy by the stent manufacturers! We have drug eluding stents now,
    as well as drugs yet we still learn more daily.

    Nope. It was shelved and no explanation given. We'll never know, and if it
    did cause embolii it would have been a perfectly good reason to not approve
    it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Then we have the case of marijuana.

    Hmmmm.. methinks thou hast an ax to grind here?
    I'll tell you straight. I recieve NO benefit from the use of one
    treatment over another in my patients. I DO see results. We treat PUD
    totally different now and it is because we know more, not because of
    who's lobbying for it.

    No axe other than I live in a country that is owned and operated by big
    business which has a a direct effect on the quality of life for us all
    whenever public needs interfere with private profits.

    Paul

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