U.S. versus Italy for mountain rides?

Ken Roberts said:

I put some photos of my September trip with Sharon to northeastern
Italy in Veneto and Sudtirol up on the web. Then I saw photos from
California and Colorado, and that got me thinking:

Quoted message said:

Are there some paved roads in the United States with mountain views
as spectacular (or more?) as the Dolomites in Italy?

I suppose that depends on the viewer and what is exciting. The
vertical to horizontal scale in the Alps as a whole is several times
that of most mountainous regions of the USA with individual exceptions
such as the grand canyon. Even that has a greater horizontal scale
than huge canyons in the alps. In the rockies one points to the
nearby mountain tops raising one's are 10 to 15 feet above the
horizontal, in the Alps seeing the nearby mountain top requires
stepping out from under the eves of the house.

Quoted message said:

It would be nice to know, in case the US dollar drops further against
the Euro, or aviation fuel prices make going to Italy or France too
expensive.

Quoted message said:

So like what's a paved mountain loop in the U.S. that's in the same
league with say this ride over the Giau, Fedaia, Sella, Gardena, and
Valparola passes:

Quoted message said:

http://roberts-1.com/t/b05/it/k/c

Quoted message said:

I'd be happy to see someone substitute a more spectacular Dolomites
route or better set of Dolomites cycling photos than those. In
addition to the obvious fact that I'm not an expert photographer,
and I've only been riding there once so far, most people would say
September is not the best time for the Dolomites. I'd guess that
June is more spectacular, with more snow on more of the mountains.
But that route is what impressed me the most.

I think the entire route from Nice to Slovenia offers roads and
landscapes that are not found elsewhere.

Your picture show some of the highlights in more than oriental
splendor. Some tales of the past:

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/

You can follow the weather on the Stelvio day and night in the winter
on this site:

http://webcam.popso.it/stelvio.php?PASSOEST

and the beauties of the central alps:

http://www.topin.ch/scripts/big_img.php?bild=ZER.JPG

Ride bike!

Jobst Brandt

I haven't done nearly as much cycling in Europe as Jobst, but I have
cycled the Dolomites, the French Pyrenees and a litte bit of the Alps.
In North America, I've cycled the Canadian Rockies, Selkirk Mountains,
Cape Breton Is., U.S. Rockies, Blue Ridge Mountains, Southern Arizona,
Cascades Range, and the Sierra-Nevada. I have recent reports for a lot
of these regions in my travelogue: http://www.steephill.tv with the
remaining reports to be posted this winter.

In my opinion, there are a lot of great bike rides in North America,
but they aren't quite as good as Europe. However, on a beautiful sunny
day I could have an amazing ride at any of the North American spots I
listed.

Steve
http://www.steephill.tv bike travelogue

Let me add to my answer.

re: "Are there some paved roads in the United States with mountain
views as
spectacular (or more?) as the Dolomites in Italy?"

The Stelvio (Dolomites of course) from both sides is the best road and
view combination I've ever cycled and I don't know whether it can be
matched. The "Stella Ring" is very special as well.

Crater Lake, six hours from the Bay Area, is my favorite ride in North
America. Here are some of my favorite mountain views in North America
while riding a road bike from trip reports I've posted:

Crater Lake: http://tinyurl.com/benyw
Kings Canyon: http://tinyurl.com/9n8ct and http://tinyurl.com/8unso
Monitor Pass: http://tinyurl.com/c6ag5

Of course, one photograph is not enough to get the "complete picture"
so you should view some other photos in the trip reports which you can
do by clicking "return to gallery" for each of the above photos.

Steve
http://www.steephill.tv

I didn't answer your question directly in my first reply. Let me try
again.

re: "Are there some paved roads in the United States with mountain
views as
spectacular (or more?) as the Dolomites in Italy?"

I mentioned, I have cycled the Dolomites including the Stelvio and the
"Sella Ring". Both the road and landscape up and over the Stelvio is
really spectacular and it's the best I've done. But, as the saying
goes, variety is the spice of life and North America has does have
variety. Just 6 hours from the Bay Area is Crater Lake which I think is
in a class by itself (by North America standards). The view looking
down the north side of Monitor pass is really nice. I also think the
descent down Kings Canyon is spectacular.

Here are some of my favorite North America mountain views from posted
trip reports:

Crater Lake: http://tinyurl.com/benyw
Kings Canyon: http://tinyurl.com/9n8ct and http://tinyurl.com/8unso
Monitor Pass: http://tinyurl.com/c6ag5

Of course, you really can't capture a great view in one photograph so
you should check out the trip reports if you want the "complete
picture".

Steve
http://www.steephill.tv

Thanks for your reports over years of riding through the mountains Italy,
Jobst, since they were a big reason why I decided to try riding in that
area -- to see why you kept going back there instead of other places I
liked.

Jobst Brandt wrote

Quoted message said:

The vertical to horizontal scale in the Alps as a whole
is several times that of most mountainous regions of the USA

Yes generally, though there are some mountain groups in the western USA
with dramatic steepness comparable to the Dolomites -- like the Mt Whitney
and Palisades groups on the eastside of the California Sierras, or the
Picketts and some other groups in the Washington Cascades. But they
typically don't have a public road that goes through their midst like in the
Dolomites.

Or in a mountain range in the USA you find one pass for bicycling, like
Washington Pass with the dramatic Liberty Bell group in the north
Cascades -- but not the sustained experience of going through such steep
mountains over several passes in a long satisfying route. Actually the USA
does have extended routes through multiple dramatic mountain passes: for
hikers.

Quoted message said:

the beauties of the central alps:
http://www.topin.ch/scripts/big_img.php?bild=ZER.JPG

Isn't that photo an example of what I'm talking about? Great great mountain
view, but I don't think there's a way to ride a bicycle to within four miles
of where it was shot from.

Quoted message said:

Some tales of the past:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/

I enjoyed that page -- especially Jobst's first climb up Stelvio.

Quoted message said:

Grand Canyon. Even that has a greater horizontal scale
than huge canyons in the alps.

America does have a valley deeper than the Grand Canyon, one which even has
a wide well-paved road through it: Route 395 in California. In some parts
the mountains on both sides rise up 2500-3000 meters above the road -- and
it is rather pretty especially with lots of snow on the peaks in early
spring. But it only serves to confirm Jobst's point: The Owens River valley
is much wider than it is deep. The road doesn't get you really close up to
the steepness, so I haven't felt the urge to ride it.

Ken

Steve wrote

Quoted message said:

on a beautiful sunny day I could have an amazing ride
at any of the North American spots I listed.

Yes, I find that at some point my internal "spectacular scenery" meter just
hits it's maximum, and I'm feeling as good about the scenery as I possibly
can in my limited human capacity. And my meter hits that maximum in terrain
significantly less dramatic than the Dolomites. On lots of good days riding
in the mid-Hudson valley, I intellectually know that it's not the Alps or
the west coast of Corsica, but the shortfall just doesn't matter to me,
since I'm happy out riding in a place which is pretty enough for my meter.

Quoted message said:

Here are some of my favorite North America mountain views
from posted trip reports:
Crater Lake: http://tinyurl.com/benyw
Kings Canyon: http://tinyurl.com/9n8ct and http://tinyurl.com/8unso
Monitor Pass: http://tinyurl.com/c6ag5

Crater Lake does look great -- thanks for the excellent photos. It confirms
my idea that the mountains are most spectacular in the springtime with a
little snow on them to provide contrast against green and blue and brown,
and that I like riding alongside water.

Kings Canyon does looks dramatic (even better with a little snow, I bet) --
and I hadn't thought of it, maybe because it's an out-and-back ride that
doesn't fit into a larger loop route.

Hope I get an excuse to ride and skate in California someday.

Ken

re: "On lots of good days riding
in the mid-Hudson valley, I intellectually know that it's not the Alps
or
the west coast of Corsica, but the shortfall just doesn't matter to
me,
since I'm happy out riding in a place which is pretty enough for my
meter."

You're not far from Vermont and the Green Mountains. Lots of great
riding there. One of my favorite rides in the Northeast can't be more
than 100 miles from you. It's a 70 mi loop I started for Woodford State
Park (just east of Bennington). Here's a google map of the loop:
http://tinyurl.com/9ytld (it mostly follows the roads Google has
highlighted in yellow). It goes Woodford-Searsberg-Readsboro-(cross the
VT/MA border)-Monroe-Whitingham-Wilmington-Woodford. Beautiful (very
hilly) backroads in rural Vermont. Very nice!!

By the way, there was a typo in my 2nd post: "Stella Ring" should read
"Sella Ring". I guess I still had the Stelvio on my mind. Also, the
Crater Lake picture I pointed you to is a nice one but here's my
favorite: http://tinyurl.com/a33xp.

cheers,
Steve
http://www.steephill.tv bike travelogue

Steve Hill said:

By the way, there was a typo in my 2nd post: "Stella Ring" should
read "Sella Ring". I guess I still had the Stelvio on my mind.
Also, the Crater Lake picture I pointed you to is a nice one but
here's my favorite:

http://tinyurl.com/a33xp.

That looks like it was take about the same time the other picture was
because the reflected clouds are the same. That's an amazingly calm
day. It reminds me of riding around Lago di Poschiavo on the south
side of the Bernina pass, arriving around noon in aptly named Miralago
on an unusually windstill day.

Judging from the name of the town, the scene must be common in early
morning, but then I seldom get there at that time. This time I took
the photo so that the Bernina Massif was reflected around the central
horizon in the frame. I was greatly pleased to have experienced
Miralago after all these years.

I can't show you the picture but this is the scene:

http://www.miralago.ch/index1.htm
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/dampfromantik-nostalgie/seite37.htm

Jobst Brandt

Jobst Brandt wrote

Quoted message said:

That looks like it was take about the same time the other picture was
because the reflected clouds are the same. That's an amazingly calm
day.

Yes, they were taken the same day. It was a calm day, but it can be
very windy at Crater Lake especially in the afternoon. As you know,
it's no coincidence that the most spectacular rides are accompanied by
great weather. It was an amazing day... the best ever on the bike, for
me, in North America.

I just happened to do a image search on google using the keywords:
"cloud reflections" (http://tinyurl.com/avt3x) and had to chuckle
looking at the results. The #1 photo is another photo from my Crater
Lake photo gallery on that day. Here is a link to the complete gallery
and more reflection shots if anybody is interested:
http://www.steephill.tv/galleries/2005/crater-lake/

Quoted message said:

This time I took the photo so that the Bernina Massif was reflected
around the central horizon in the frame. I was greatly pleased to
have experienced Miralago after all these years.... I can't show you
the picture but...

I'm sure it's a good one just like your others. I find reflection shots
intriguing because they are natural art. Here's a mountain reflection
shot I think is one of the best by an Alaskan photographer:
http://www.wanderingphotographer.com/galleries/ak3/pic10.htm.

By the way, did you notice the reference to you in the Crater Lake
photo gallery? http://tinyurl.com/8u4xv

Steve

Quoted message said:

The Stelvio (Dolomites of course) from both sides is the best road and
view combination I've ever cycled and I don't know whether it can be
matched.

Except it's not in the Dolomites. It's in the Ortler Group. The Dolomites
isn't the only mountain range in northern Italy.

--
Michael MacClancy

Steve Hill said:

Quoted message said:

That looks like it was take about the same time the other picture
was because the reflected clouds are the same. That's an amazingly
calm day.

Quoted message said:

Yes, they were taken the same day. It was a calm day, but it can be
very windy at Crater Lake especially in the afternoon. As you know,
it's no coincidence that the most spectacular rides are accompanied
by great weather. It was an amazing day... the best ever on the
bike, for me, in North America.

Quoted message said:

I just happened to do a image search on Google using the keywords:
"cloud reflections"

http://tinyurl.com/avt3x

Quoted message said:

and had to chuckle looking at the results. The #1 photo is another
photo from my Crater Lake photo gallery on that day. Here is a link
to the complete gallery and more reflection shots if anybody is
interested:

http://www.steephill.tv/galleries/2005/crater-lake/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This time I took the photo so that the Bernina Massif was reflected
around the central horizon in the frame. I was greatly pleased to
have experienced Miralago after all these years... I can't show
you the picture but...

Quoted message said:

I'm sure it's a good one just like your others. I find reflection
shots intriguing because they are natural art. Here's a mountain
reflection shot I think is one of the best by an Alaskan
photographer:

http://www.wanderingphotographer.com/galleries/ak3/pic10.htm.

Quoted message said:

By the way, did you notice the reference to you in the Crater Lake
photo gallery?

http://tinyurl.com/8u4xv

That reminds me of the ride I took over Ebbetts Pass with about seven
other bikies in the 1960's. These guys were strong and fast racers
who wanted to see something other than criteriums and road races and
joined four of us on a ride over Sonora, monitor an Ebbetts passes on
a weekend in the spring.

Coming down Monitor Pass into the East Carson River on the way to
Markleeville we saw that the Ebbetts Pass road had a barrier and a
"Road Closed" sign. That wasn't anything too daunting because we had
read the pass would be opened the next weekend and that meant they
were about done clearing the road. The next morning when we reached
Kinney reservoir we found a wall of snow and two parked snow plows.
From there is was a two mile hike to the summit on which the newcomers
saw it as a march to Stalingrad even though it was a beautiful sunny
day. Just beyond the summit were two more snow plows and a clear
road.

After returning home, the new members of our crew told tall tales of a
death march in the Sierra from which, today, we have the annual
"Markleeville Death Ride".

http://tinyurl.com/ccu2h

The cursor is where the "death" march began. On the other hand, two
of my riding companions were once arrested for riding on a closed road
at crater lake, so it isn't always so easy.

Jobst Brandt

That's a good story about the origins of the Markleeville Death Ride.

When I was cycling up Ebbetts Pass last spring (2nd last weekend of
May), the road was closed, but it was clear all the way to the top. The
snowbanks were highest and the road narrowed near the Kinney Reservoir
you mentioned and linked to. There were lots of other riders taking
advantage of both the great weather and closed road up Ebbetts that day
as well. Here are some Ebbetts snowbank photos of my ride last spring
near Kinney Reservoir where you started your Stalingrad march years
ago:

Gardnerville guy standing next to an 8 foot sheer snowbank:
http://tinyurl.com/a4u2r
Descending through high snowbanks: http://tinyurl.com/ajghb
The buried Ebbetts sign at the top: http://tinyurl.com/bkmtn

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, two of my riding companions were once arrested for
riding on a closed road at crater lake, so it isn't always so easy.

At Crater Lake, while entering the park by car I was informed that the
east side of the Rim Drive was closed. I asked the rangers whether the
east side was passable on a bike. They weren't sure and didn't seem to
care whether I tried. I suspect cyclists don't get arrested anymore for
cycling a mountain road closed to vehicular traffic. I've done it too
often to think otherwise!

Steve
http://www.steephill.tv bike travelogue

Steve Hill said:

That's a good story about the origins of the Markleeville Death Ride.

Quoted message said:

When I was cycling up Ebbetts Pass last spring (2nd last weekend of
May), the road was closed, but it was clear all the way to the top. The
snowbanks were highest and the road narrowed near the Kinney Reservoir
you mentioned and linked to. There were lots of other riders taking
advantage of both the great weather and closed road up Ebbetts that day
as well. Here are some Ebbetts snowbank photos of my ride last spring
near Kinney Reservoir where you started your Stalingrad march years
ago:

Quoted message said:

Gardnerville guy standing next to an 8 foot sheer snowbank:
http://tinyurl.com/a4u2r
Descending through high snowbanks: http://tinyurl.com/ajghb
The buried Ebbetts sign at the top: http://tinyurl.com/bkmtn

Looks familiar. One thing to remember when pushing a bike OVER the
snow is that you must stay on the "road" because sooner or later you
will come to a creek that has steep snow walls with water flowing way
down there that you cannot cross. Therefore, you must look at the
trees and go there where the road most likely lies under the snow. I
learned this in the 1950's when climbing Luther pass where nothing was
plowed from South Tahoe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, two of my riding companions were once arrested for
riding on a closed road at crater lake, so it isn't always so easy.

Make that Lassen Loop. In any case, it was an officious Ranger and
they had to pay a fine.

Quoted message said:

At Crater Lake, while entering the park by car I was informed that the
east side of the Rim Drive was closed. I asked the rangers whether the
east side was passable on a bike. They weren't sure and didn't seem to
care whether I tried. I suspect cyclists don't get arrested anymore for
cycling a mountain road closed to vehicular traffic. I've done it too
often to think otherwise!

Not all rangers take their power so seriously.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Not all rangers take their power so seriously.

As I mentioned, I've never been hassled while cycling on a closed road;
however, on one occasion I could have... easily! It occurred a few
years ago while climbing a closed section of the Blue Ridge Parkway in
the Mount Pisgah National Forest, the "Cradle of Forestry in America",
near Asheville, North Carolina at the end of December. I encountered a
lot of black ice from frozen melt water and debris during an out and
back. I passed a ranger and thought for sure I was going to take heck
but he just smiled and waved. Maybe he knew what lay ahead and doesn't
like cyclists. 😉 Since I was doing an o&b, I did valuable recon on the
ascent taking note of the dangerous sections and stored them away. The
Parkway has a fair number of tunnels and some of the them can be very
dark. As I passed through the Mt Pisgah tunnels:
http://tinyurl.com/ap4fj I noticed huge chunks of ice in the middle of
the opposite lane barely visible in the dark. On the return descent, I
descended like such a little baby that I lost valuable daylight and by
the time I hit the tunnels they were pitch dark. Dark as in... it
doesn't make a difference whether your eyes are open or closed! Anyway,
I walked through the tunnels feeling my way along the walls and
stumbling over blocks of ice. I got back to Asheville in one piece but
with no daylight to spare.

The moral of the story: sometimes there is a good reason why a road is
closed! And... bring a light!

I know a little bit about your sense of adventure, Jobst, so I'm sure
you would have enjoyed it.

Steve
http://www.steephill.tv bike travelogue

Quoted message said:

Not all rangers take their power so seriously.

As I mentioned, I've never been hassled while cycling on a closed road;
however, on one occasion I could have... easily! It occurred a few
years ago while climbing a closed section of the Blue Ridge Parkway in
the Mount Pisgah National Forest, the "Cradle of Forestry in America",
near Asheville, North Carolina at the end of December. I encountered a
lot of black ice from frozen melt water and debris during an out and
back. I passed a ranger and thought for sure I was going to take heck
but he just smiled and waved. Maybe he knew what lay ahead and doesn't
like cyclists. 😉 Since I was doing an o&b, I did valuable recon on the
ascent taking note of the dangerous sections and stored them away. The
Parkway has a fair number of tunnels and some of the them can be very
dark. As I passed through the Mt Pisgah tunnels:
http://tinyurl.com/ap4fj I noticed huge chunks of ice in the middle of
the opposite lane barely visible in the dark. On the return descent, I
descended like such a little baby that I lost valuable daylight and by
the time I hit the tunnels they were pitch dark. Dark as in... it
doesn't make a difference whether your eyes are open or closed! Anyway,
I walked through the tunnels feeling my way along the walls and
stumbling over blocks of ice. I got back to Asheville in one piece but
with no daylight to spare.

The moral of the story: sometimes there is a good reason why a road is
closed! And... bring a light!

I know a little bit about your sense of adventure, Jobst, so I'm sure
you would have enjoyed it.

Steve
http://www.steephill.tv bike travelogue

I think the "lightly traveled road" you are referring to is Hwy 1A
which runs parallel to the busy TransCanada Highway between Banff and
Lake Louise (80k). From Lake Louise to Jasper (220K), the Icefields
Parkway is the only road through the park. The 1A is very scenic road.
There are some short spurs off of the Parkway but nothing that runs
parallel.

Steve
www.steephill.tv bike travelogue

Quoted message said:

Are there some paved roads in the United States with mountain views as
spectacular (or more?) as the Dolomites in Italy?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As mountains I find the Alps far more interesting, as the north american
mountains have been polished by ice. The Rockies appears as gigantic rounded
hills compared to the Alps and the Himalaya, the latter two ranges are
geologially much younger. Also the roads are different. You rarely find the
switchbacks that are common on alpine roads.

On the other hand northamerican mountains are much better for
mountainbiking, because they are not that steep.

Per

http://lowdin.nu