30 second intervals

blkhotrod said:

All I'm saying is that 30 sec intervals seem to have a place in a portfolio of interval training which is mainly 3-30 minutes intervals.

Agree. I use the 30sec - 1 min intervals to improve anaerobic capacity for race surges and charging up rolling hills. Apparently doing lots of them also benefits VO2max to some degree.

blkhotrod said:

If you can take doing 3-8 min intervals all year round and be a Group 1/2, great.

I wouldn't advise doing 3-8 min intervals all year round (or 30s intervals either, for that matter), but they are great for improving VO2max.

BTW, I was referring to the training groups in the study that Ric responded to, not any racing levels or categories.

blkhotrod said:

All I'm saying is that 30 sec intervals seem to have a place in a portfolio of interval training which is mainly 3-30 minutes intervals. If you can take doing 3-8 min intervals all year round and be a Group 1/2, great.

Isn't the question, "What is the training objective that is best met with 30s intervals?" I'm still formulating my own views, but at this point I think training is about defining desired training adaptations and then designing a training program to achieve those objectives. The desired adaptations would be defined as a function of one's current fitness, power/duration curve and targeted events. The training program is then designed to obtain maximum training benefit (for the targeted adaptations) from the one, true scarce resource -- time on the bike.

HammerHead said:

The one thing I have noticed about these, is that I always feel amazing the next day.

I´ve experienced the same thing, any ideas to why?

There is actually a similar thread to this where i have made a post about how interval training works [physiologically/biochemically speaking] http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?p=2498133&posted=1#post2498133

I don't have any of the scientific articles sitting next to me but i'd be glad to dig them out and reference them for anyone who is genuinely interested. Alternately there are any number of publically available sports science related journal articles on this subject which can be googled.

FORDGT40 said:

There is actually a similar thread to this where i have made a post about how interval training works [physiologically/biochemically speaking] http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?p=2498133&posted=1#post2498133

I don't have any of the scientific articles sitting next to me but i'd be glad to dig them out and reference them for anyone who is genuinely interested. Alternately there are any number of publically available sports science related journal articles on this subject which can be googled.

30" on/off intervals done at power near VO2max power and slightly above VO2max power are an effective way for some people to improve certain abilities, among them VO2max power. During lab testing the physiological responses to the 30/30" format are quite similar to the responses from single VO2max intervals of longer duration. By the time the person is doing the 3rd, or maybe 4th 30" on they are effectively exercising components of VO2max ability. Rest between blocks/sets of these intervals is kept to 3-4' (incomplete recovery).

I haven't formally researched this but my very knowledgeable coach says that the 30/30 (or 20/20, etc.) approach for VO2max training seems to work best for sprinter types-people with relatively high amounts of type 2 fibers. The brief rest periods allow some lactate clearance (proxy for other things) that help the rider perform more total, effective training for VO2max. Riders with relatively more type 1 fibers will probably find the 3-4' interval protocol a more effective way to train their ability at VO2max. I have found this to be very true for myself (lots of type 2).

I begin with weeks building from 10/50", then 20/40, and then 30/30, while increasing total time at each protocol before moving to the next (more stressful) protocol. Right before championship events we'll do some 35/25 on/off and a little bit of 40/20.

Contrary to what some people say about VO2max training, I've had good results using this training every 7-10 days for 4-6 months before season peaks. I'm just now starting the 30/30 and peak is planned for August. If I'm doing mass-start races at the track I'll skip the VO2max training that week, unless it's within a month or so before peak. Don't overuse VO2max training. It's a good tool when used properly.

-Warren

Warren brought up a good point. That is, one thing works for him that doesnt have the same results for others, that is why one coach might use different methods for two athletes under his tuition. There is not a journal article that i am aware of that shows similar results for 100% of the participants in the study. Try different things and see which works for you. Having said that, when an article states that a particular training method works, it is for a scientifically significant number within each group. In other words, in the majority of cases, Interval training WILL improve VO2max in MOST people [though i must admit this is conditional on things such as current VO2max, pervious training etc]. BUT that it is very dependent on currernt condition and compliance to a given routine.

Try and keep in mind that VO2max is a measure of oxygen carrying capacity only, NOT performance. It is used as an indicator of CAPABILITY. That is to say, while you can increase your VO2, that does not mean you will ride faster, or longer, but is is a good indicator of your physiological ability to provide oxygen to working muscles. Many factors are involved when considering performance. As many on the forum have stated, you need a portfolio of training exercises, which must be managed in the correct sequence and timing to maximise performance. If you focus too much on one training method, you do so at your peril!

FORDGT40 said:

Warren brought up a good point. That is, one thing works for him that doesnt have the same results for others, that is why one coach might use different methods for two athletes under his tuition. There is not a journal article that i am aware of that shows similar results for 100% of the participants in the study. Try different things and see which works for you. Having said that, when an article states that a particular training method works, it is for a scientifically significant number within each group. In other words, in the majority of cases, Interval training WILL improve VO2max in MOST people [though i must admit this is conditional on things such as current VO2max, pervious training etc]. BUT that it is very dependent on currernt condition and compliance to a given routine.

Try and keep in mind that VO2max is a measure of oxygen carrying capacity only, NOT performance. It is used as an indicator of CAPABILITY. That is to say, while you can increase your VO2, that does not mean you will ride faster, or longer, but is is a good indicator of your physiological ability to provide oxygen to working muscles. Many factors are involved when considering performance. As many on the forum have stated, you need a portfolio of training exercises, which must be managed in the correct sequence and timing to maximise performance. If you focus too much on one training method, you do so at your peril!

I'm impressed. You point to two very important points that I rarely see mentioned. First, just because a "study" shows performance improvements as a result of a certain kind of training does not mean that all study participants responded positively to the training, and some may have actually responded negatively, or some may have responded positively to a slight degree but another method would have worked even better. In the end, the coach and/or athlete should be doing a study where the number of participants is 1, or N=1.

Second thing, regarding VO2max, yes, it's just a number and increasing VO2max from 57 to 61 isn't really the goal unless you just want to get better at lab tests. The real objective is to increase your performance. I like to use VO2max as just a level of intensity among the many levels of intensity, like LT is a level, recovery pace is a level, 110% of LT power is a level, and so on.

So, by doing 30/30's you may be trying to improve your performance at a commonly-understood level of intensity called VO2max. You can also train with 30/30's at levels far above your VO2max power to improve your ability near the end of races or during some track events like the points race.

-Warren

Do you have a science background Warren, as you seem to have a good grasp of the concepts?

FORDGT40 said:

Do you have a science background Warren, as you seem to have a good grasp of the concepts?

That's interesting because I think Andy Coggan said something quite similar to this just yesterday.

I've been racing for about 25 years, I like to learn about ex phys stuff, and I'm very fortunate to get lots of help from my coach, Max Testa.

-Warren

I struck gold today looking through some boxes that got wet during the last heavy rain here. Got articleswith titles like "Relationship Between the Lactate and Ventilatory Thresholds During Prolonged Exercise" and "Anaerobic threshold and maximal aerobic power for three modes of exercise". I'll try and post some of the pertinent info for anyone that is interested in the near future. Heavy reading tho.

This has been a good read. Keep up the good work guys !

I'm in need of working in 30's , 60's , 90's intervals into my routine.
Initally , how many times per week would you start someone out w/intervals .... and how many seconds/reps /sets per day would you begin with ? I have excellent base milage under my belt , just looking to increase my VO2 max a bit.

Thanks. 🙂

Adam-from-SLO said:

This has been a good read. Keep up the good work guys !

I'm in need of working in 30's , 60's , 90's intervals into my routine.
Initally , how many times per week would you start someone out w/intervals .... and how many seconds/reps /sets per day would you begin with ? I have excellent base milage under my belt , just looking to increase my VO2 max a bit.

Thanks. 🙂

I think most of this is answered in a previous post of mine in this topic. These intervals can burn you up if not used with come caution. I do them once every 7-10 days for now.

WarrenG said:

I think most of this is answered in a previous post of mine in this topic. These intervals can burn you up if not used with come caution. I do them once every 7-10 days for now.

Thanks.
Yeah, at the most I'd incorperate this workout once per-week. Typically, I just get into a good rythum, and ride away. If approaching a small 1/4 mile hill - I'll accellerate for 30s-45s to keep the momentum up , so I can assend fairly fast over the hill. Do my best to keep tucked on down-hill decents(no brakes), apexing properly, etc.

The 30-60 second interval thing , once per week, I believe would drastically improve my VO2 max , as I'm reading Friels book ........ I'm sure I'll be incorperating this method more, and more so as spring/summer approaches.

Listen to what WarrenG said. This sort of interval training [or any high intensity interval training] should only be done for a short period. Once a week max if it is included with regular LT type training, and only for a 2-4 month period leading into competition. and then taper right before comp. If you are doing only intervals, then very short training sessions, three times a week will do wonders for a 8-12 week period, then back into LT training [you will need to reassess your LT after this period as it will likely have increased].

Adam-from-SLO said:

The 30-60 second interval thing , once per week, I believe would drastically improve my VO2 max 🙂

Intervals this short are not ideal for hitting VO2max. You might see some minor increase in VO2, but there are much better routines.

The rational for this statement has been very well worked out and described in detail in the running literature during the mid 1990's. Daniels had a very nice review.

yzfrr11 said:

Intervals this short are not ideal for hitting VO2max. You might see some minor increase in VO2, but there are much better routines.

The rational for this statement has been very well worked out and described in detail in the running literature during the mid 1990's. Daniels had a very nice review.

We discussed this previously and looked at a fairly recent study too. 30" on/off for 5+ minutes at an intensity around 110% of VO2max was effective in the study. The 30/30 and 40/20 protocol may allow for more total effective work for those who are more inclined towards sprinting. Personally, I start out with these near VO2max power and over months build the intensity to about 140-150% of power at VO2max.

People well-suited for aerobic endurance may get better results with intervals in the range of 3-5'.

Adam-from-SLO said:

This has been a good read. Keep up the good work guys !

I'm in need of working in 30's , 60's , 90's intervals into my routine.
Initally , how many times per week would you start someone out w/intervals .... and how many seconds/reps /sets per day would you begin with ? I have excellent base milage under my belt , just looking to increase my VO2 max a bit.

Thanks. 🙂

About three or four years ago I read from Carl Cantrell(www.coachcarl.com) about good routine for performing 30 second intervals. It is performed in the following way:

warmup

ride hard for 30 seconds
low gear and spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds

spin for 5 MINUTES

ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds

spin for 5 MINUTES

ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds

warmdown

that's all. It's hard but it does not burn you out fast. I tried it sometimes for short periods of time, 6-8 weeks, doing it once a week along with other training (longer intervals, race simulations). I don't do it on regular basis just because I'm not an "interval person". If I sticked to a specific training program I would do it weekly. I think doing 30 sec on/30 sec off for 15 minutes is too hard and it really could burn someone out.

dot said:

About three or four years ago I read from Carl Cantrell(www.coachcarl.com) about good routine for performing 30 second intervals. It is performed in the following way:

warmup

ride hard for 30 seconds
low gear and spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds

spin for 5 MINUTES

ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds

spin for 5 MINUTES

ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds
spin for 30 seconds
ride hard for 30 seconds

warmdown

that's all. It's hard but it does not burn you out fast. I tried it sometimes for short periods of time, 6-8 weeks, doing it once a week along with other training (longer intervals, race simulations). I don't do it on regular basis just because I'm not an "interval person". If I sticked to a specific training program I would do it weekly. I think doing 30 sec on/30 sec off for 15 minutes is too hard and it really could burn someone out.

The 30/30's should probably be repeated more than 3 times. More like 5-9 times. If you were to do them for 15 times without a break your intensity will end up much lower than around your VO2max.

Without wanting to sound like WarrenG's lap dog, i gotta agree with him again. My uni professor (that is actually an professor of physiology, not just lecturer] loved high intensity training, and made us read a couple of one inch thick note books chock full of articles for and against interval training, and overwhelmingly it was in favour of interval training improving VO2max. As i stated in a previous post though, this is no guarantee of improved endurance performance. It must be done as part of a portfolio of training that will realise long term benefits for endurance performance, in the long term. There is no quick way, but this method will optimise your training. It should be noted though, that amateurs and those new to training derive the most benefit, most rapidly. Also, like Waren said, I would be doing more like 4-6 reps, 3 sets of high intensity bursts per session. You want to be able to maintain your target power level through all reps, there is no advantage to fatiguing early, especially within the first set. Thats why the session is so short. Lets face it, doing 30/30's it works out to only 4-6 minutes of actual work, and will give the same benefits as up to 4 hours of LT training. I would not recommend any interval shorter than this though. Some studies that i have read tested between varying intervals, and any intervals less than 30s of exertion showed no significant improvement in VO2max, it just doesnt stress the biochemical systems enough to elicit a cellular response, particularly in relation to gene expression [long term cellular changes].

FORDGT40 said:

Lets face it, doing 30/30's it works out to only 4-6 minutes of actual work, and will give the same benefits as up to 4 hours of LT training.

4-6 minutes of 30sec intervals provides the same benefits as 4 hours of LT training? Wow! Tell me more! (with a reference, too, of course)