Heart rates when training

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C36891.54875DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh no, not the fat burning myth again...

Many people seem to be confused by this issue, as is Sam. One need only = to read some of the recent
body of research to understand this issue. I = have spent several years trying to understand this
complex issue.

My suggestion is to: a) reid Friel (p. 38-39), b) read the excellent = article by Holloszy, Kohrt &
Hansen (1998), or c) read some of the = citations I have provided below (perhaps too many).

Perhaps some of the confusion is caused by Ed Burke's book wherein he = states that the total number
of calories burned is what is important - = calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports physiology
and metabolic = studies have not been able to substantiate this claim, and if you think = about it
from an evolutionary point of view, you'll aggree. There would = have to be a metabolic difference
between long-term endurance and = explosive strength.

But don't believe me (as your use of the term "myth" implies), read the = research:

From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation of = carbohydrate and fat
metabolism during and after exercise, Frontiers in = Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027, September 15, 1998.

Abstract The rate of carbohydrate utilization during prolonged, strenuous = exercise is closely
geared to the energy needs of the working muscles. = In contrast, fat utilization during exercise is
not tightly regulated, = as there are no mechanisms for closely matching availability and =
metabolism of fatty acids to the rate of energy expenditure. As a = result, the rate of fat
oxidation during exercise is determined by the = availability of fatty acids and the rate of
carbohydrate utilization. = Blood glucose and muscle glycogen are essential for prolonged strenuous
= exercise, and exhaustion can result either from development of = hypoglycemia or depletion of
muscle glycogen.=20

Both absolute and relative (i.e. % of maximal O2 uptake) exercise = intensities play important roles
in the regulation of substrate = metabolism. The absolute work rate determines the total quantity of
fuel = required, while relative exercise intensity plays a major role in = determining the
proportions of carbohydrate and fat oxidized by the = working muscles. As relative exercise
intensity is increased, there is a = decrease in the proportion of the energy requirement derived
from fat = oxidation and an increase in that provided by carbohydrate oxidation. = During moderately
strenuous exercise of an intensity that can be = maintained for 90 minutes or longer (~55-75% of
VO2max), there is a = progressive decline in the proportion of energy derived from muscle = glycogen
and a progressive increase in plasma fatty acid oxidation.=20

The adaptations induced by endurance exercise training result in a = marked sparing of carbohydrate
during exercise, with an increased = proportion of the energy being provided by fat oxidation. The
mechanisms = by which training decreases utilization of blood glucose are not well = understood.
However, the slower rate of glycogenolysis can be explained = on the basis of lower concentrations
of inorganic phosphate (Pi) in = trained, as compared to untrained, muscles during exercise of the
same = intensity. The lower Pi level is a consequence of the increase in muscle = mitochondria
induced by endurance exercise training.=20

A large increase in muscle glycogen concentration, far above the level = found in the well-fed
sedentary state, occurs in response to = carbohydrate feeding following glycogen depleting exercise.
It was = recently found that this muscle "glycogen supercompensation" is markedly = enhanced by
endurance exercise training that induces an increase in the = GLUT4 isoform of the glucose
transporter in skeletal muscle.=20

other references:=20

Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. Spina, D.M. Bier & J.O. Holloszy: = Endurance training decreases
plasma glucose turnover and oxidation = during moderate-intensity exercise in men. J Appl Physiol
68, 990-996, = 1990.=20

Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. Gastaldelli, B.D. Williams & R.R. Wolfe: = Regulation of glucose
production during exercise at 80% of VO2peak in = untrained humans. Am J Physiol 273,
E348-E354, 1997.=20

Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during exercise. Sports Sci Exch 8(6):1-6, = 1995.

Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism and prolonged exercise, in Lamb DR, = Murray R (eds): Perspectives in
Exercise Science and Sports Medicine, = Vol 1: Prolonged Exercise. Indianapolis, Benchmark Press,
1989, pp 1-36.

Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of individual free fatty acids in man. Fed Proc = 34, 2236-2240, 1975.

Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation of = carbohydrate and fat metabolism
during and after exercise, Frontiers in = Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027, September 15, 1998.

Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. Scanlon & M.D. Jensen: Fatty acid = kinetic responses to running
above or below lactate threshold. J Appl = Physiol 79, 439-447, 1995.=20

Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Fat metabolism during = low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am. J. = Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30):
E934=96E940, 1994.

Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. Hargreaves & E.A. Richter: Influence of active = muscle mass on glucose
homeostasis during exercise in humans. J Appl = Physiol 71, 552-557, 1991.=20

Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. Wolfe: Fat metabolism during low-intensity = exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am J Physiol 267, = E934-E940, 1994.=20

Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Effect of = endurance training on glycerol
kinetics during strenuous exercise in = humans. Metabolism 45: 357=96361, 1996.

Phillips, S. M., H. J. Green, M. A. Tarnopolsky, G. J. F. Heigenhauser, = and S. M. Grant.
Progressive effect of endurance training on metabolic = adaptations in working skeletal muscle. Am.
J. Physiol. 270 (Endocrinol. = Metab. 33): E265=96E272, 1996.

Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. Sidossis, A. Gastaldelli, J.F. Horowitz, =
E. Endert & R.R. Wolfe: Regulation of endogenous fat and carbohydrate = metabolism in relation to
exercise intensity and duration. Am J Physiol = 265, E380-E391 (1993)=20

Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. Carroll, J. Goodwin, and S. Klein. Fat and = carbohydrate metabolism
during exercise in elderly and young subjects. = Am. J. Physiol. 271 (Endocrinol. Metab.
34):E983=96E989, 1996.

Tom

Quoted message said:

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Every thing that my betters have said before me is correct; however, remember, that the standard
formula is more often accurate than not. Definitely use Friel's method, but I'd be surprised if
there's a big differential.

That said, running at 160 is too high if you want to build better =

aerobic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

capacity and/or burn fat. Slow it down - try to keep around 130 for =

most

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

runs, and then once a week give it your best shot.

By the way, for losing weight and running, I've found that an =

excellent

Quoted message said:

(and

Quoted message said:

scientifically grounded) books is Maffetone

=

(amazon.comqid=3D106141685=Open ↗
8/sr=3D

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

=

8-2/ref=3Dsr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks&n=3D507846). = Maffetone

Quoted message said:

has

Quoted message said:

been consistently ranked as tri coach of the year (whatever that =

means).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom

"Steve Holdoway" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Folks,

I've not long come back from fatland, and am back competing after =

a 10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

year layoff. Now we've got much better toys to play with, and I =

find

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it quite good to record my heart rate using a Polar S510. I'm =

shifting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

form Tris over to running for the next few months, 'cos they're =

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

next few events that I'm doing.

I'm 43, and still have about 10kg to shift to get down to a decent weight ( I'm 5'10 and
90kg/200lb at the moment ). Reading through =

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dirty mags for general fitness, they reckon I should be training =

at a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HR of 75% =3D (220-43)*.75, which is in the low 130's. I've just =

come

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

back from my daily hour's run, and my average rate is 161, or over =

90%

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even on the bike, my HR is between 150-155. Should I be easing =

off, or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just ignore the mags???

I surely would like to shift the weight... even if it's only to =

get a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

better BMI (:

Steve

=20

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C36891.54875DD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1255"> <META content=3D"MSHTML
6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Sam" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>> wrote=20 in
message </FONT><A=20 href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT
= face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT><=
/A><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> Oh no, not the fat burning myth=20 again...<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Many people seem to be confused by this = issue, as=20 is Sam.
One need only to read some of the recent body of research to = understand=20 this issue. I
have spent several years trying to understand this complex =

issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My suggestion is to: a) reid Friel (p. = 38-39), b)=20 read the
excellent article by Holloszy, Kohrt & Hansen (1998), or c) = read=20 some of the
citations I have provided below (perhaps too = many).</FONT></DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Perhaps some of the confusion is caused = by Ed=20 Burke's book
wherein he states that the total number of calories burned = is what=20 is important -
calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports physiology = and=20 metabolic studies have not
been able to substantiate this claim, and if = you=20 think about it from an evolutionary
point of view, you'll aggree. There = would=20 have to be a metabolic difference between
long-term endurance and = explosive=20 strength.</FONT></DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But don't believe me (as your use of = the term=20 "myth"
implies), read the research:</FONT></DIV>
<DXIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </DIV></FONT>
<DXIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DXV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. =
M. and=20 Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism = during and=20
after exercise, <EM>Frontiers in Bioscience</EM>, 3, d1011-1027, = September 15,=20
1998<EM>.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM>Abstract</EM></DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D1><B> <P align=3Dleft></B><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The rate = of carbohydrate=20
utilization during prolonged, strenuous exercise is closely geared to = the energy=20 needs
of the working muscles. In contrast, fat utilization during = exercise is=20 not tightly
regulated, as there are no mechanisms for closely matching=20 availability and metabolism of
fatty acids to the rate of energy = expenditure. As=20 a result, the rate of fat oxidation
during exercise is determined by the =

availability of fatty acids and the rate of carbohydrate utilization. = Blood=20 glucose and muscle
glycogen are essential for prolonged strenuous = exercise, and=20 exhaustion can result either from
development of hypoglycemia or = depletion of=20 muscle glycogen. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Both absolute and relative (i.e. % of = maximal=20 O<SUB>2</SUB>
uptake) exercise intensities play important roles in the=20 regulation of substrate
metabolism. The absolute work rate determines = the total=20 quantity of fuel required, while
relative exercise intensity plays a = major role=20 in determining the proportions of
carbohydrate and fat oxidized by the = working=20 muscles. As relative exercise intensity is
increased, there is a = decrease in the=20 proportion of the energy requirement derived from
fat oxidation and an = increase=20 in that provided by carbohydrate oxidation. During
moderately strenuous = exercise=20 of an intensity that can be maintained for 90 minutes or
longer (~55-75% = of=20 VO<SUB>2</SUB>max), there is a progressive decline in the proportion
of = energy=20 derived from muscle glycogen and a progressive increase in plasma fatty =
acid=20 oxidation. </FONT>
<Q><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The adaptations induced by endurance = exercise=20 training
result in a marked sparing of carbohydrate during exercise, = with an=20 increased proportion
of the energy being provided by fat oxidation. The=20 mechanisms by which training decreases
utilization of blood glucose are = not well=20 understood. However, the slower rate of
glycogenolysis can be explained = on the=20 basis of lower concentrations of inorganic
phosphate (Pi) in trained, as =

compared to untrained, muscles during exercise of the same intensity. = The lower=20 Pi level is
a consequence of the increase in muscle mitochondria induced = by=20 endurance exercise
training. </FONT>
<R><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A large increase in muscle glycogen = concentration,=20 far above
the level found in the well-fed sedentary state, occurs in = response to=20 carbohydrate
feeding following glycogen depleting exercise. It was = recently=20 found that this muscle
"glycogen supercompensation" is markedly enhanced = by=20 endurance exercise training that
induces an increase in the GLUT4 = isoform of the=20 glucose transporter in skeletal
muscle.</FONT>=20 </P></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></FONT>
<DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>other references:=20
</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. Spina, =
D.M. Bier=20 & J.O. Holloszy: Endurance training decreases plasma glucose = turnover and=20
oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise in men. <I>J Appl Physiol = </I>68,=20 990-996,
1990. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. = Gastaldelli, B.D.=20 Williams
& R.R. Wolfe: Regulation of glucose production during = exercise at=20 80% of
VO<SUB>2peak</SUB> in untrained humans. <I>Am J Physiol </I>273,=20 E348-E354, 1997.
</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during = exercise.=20 <EM>Sports Sci
Exch</EM> 8(6):1-6, 1995.</FONT></DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism and = prolonged=20 exercise, in
Lamb DR, Murray R (eds): Perspectives in Exercise Science = and=20 Sports Medicine, Vol 1:
Prolonged Exercise. Indianapolis, Benchmark = Press, 1989,=20 pp 1-36.</FONT></DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of individual = free fatty=20 acids in
man. <I>Fed Proc </I>34, 2236-2240, 1975.</FONT></DIV>
<DXIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. =
M. and=20 Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism = during and=20
after exercise, <EM>Frontiers in Bioscience</EM>, 3, d1011-1027, = September 15,=20
1998<EM>.</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. Scanlon = & M.D.=20 Jensen:
Fatty acid kinetic responses to running above or below lactate=20 threshold. <EM>J Appl
Physiol </EM>79, 439-447, 1995. </FONT></DIV>
<DVI><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. = Wolfe. Fat=20 metabolism
during low-intensity exercise in endurance-trained and = untrained men.=20 Am. J. Physiol.
267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): E934=96E940, = 1994.</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. Hargreaves = & E.A.=20 Richter:
Influence of active muscle mass on glucose homeostasis during = exercise=20 in humans. <I>J
Appl Physiol </I>71, 552-557, 1991. </FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. Wolfe: = Fat=20 metabolism
during low-intensity exercise in endurance-trained and = untrained men.=20
<DXII>Am J Physiol </I>267, E934-E940, 1994. </FONT></DIV>
<DXIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. F. = Coyle, and R.=20
R. Wolfe. Effect of endurance training on glycerol kinetics during = strenuous=20 exercise in
humans. <I>Metabolism </I></FONT><FONT face=3DArial>45: = 357=96361,=20 1996.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Phillips, S. M., H. J. Green, M. =
A.=20 Tarnopolsky, G. J. F. Heigenhauser, and S. M. Grant.<STRONG>=20 </STRONG>Progressive effect of
endurance training on metabolic = adaptations in=20 working skeletal muscle. <I>Am. J.
Physiol</I></FONT><FONT = face=3DArial>. 270=20 (<I>Endocrinol. Metab</I></FONT><FONT
face=3DArial>. 33): E265=96E272,=20 1996.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. = Sidossis, A.=20 Gastaldelli,
J.F. Horowitz, E. Endert & R.R. Wolfe: Regulation of = endogenous=20 fat and carbohydrate
metabolism in relation to exercise intensity and = duration.=20
<DVI>Am J Physiol </I>265, E380-E391 (1993) </FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. Carroll, J. = Goodwin, and=20
S. Klein.<STRONG> </STRONG>Fat and carbohydrate metabolism during = exercise in=20 elderly and young
subjects. <I>Am. J. Physiol</I>. 271 (<I>Endocrinol.=20 Metab</I>. 34):E983=96E989,
1996.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</DIV>
<DVII><BR>> "Tom G" <</FONT><A = href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT=20 face=3DArial
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT = face=3DArial size=3D2>>=20 wrote in
message<BR>> </FONT><A=20 href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>> > Every thing that my betters have said before = me is=20 correct;
however,<BR>> > remember, that the standard formula is = more often=20 accurate than
not.<BR>> > Definitely use Friel's method, but I'd = be=20 surprised if there's a
big<BR>> > differential.<BR>> = ><BR>> >=20 That said, running at 160 is
too high if you want to build better=20 aerobic<BR>> > capacity and/or burn fat. Slow
it down - try to = keep around=20 130 for most<BR>> > runs, and then once a week give
it your best=20 shot.<BR>> ><BR>> > By the way, for losing weight and = running,
I've=20 found that an excellent<BR>> (and<BR>> > scientifically = grounded) books=20
is Maffetone<BR>> ><BR>> (</FONT><A=20
href=3D"amazon.comqid=3D10=Open ↗
61416858/sr"><FONT=20 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>amazon.comqid=3D1=Open ↗
61416859/sr</FONT></A><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>=3D<BR>> >=20
8-2/ref=3Dsr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks&n=3D507=
61416860).=20 Maffetone<BR>> has<BR>> > been consistently ranked as tri coach = of the=20
year (whatever that means).<BR>> ><BR>> > Tom<BR>> = ><BR>>=20

Quoted message said:

<BR>> > "Steve Holdoway" <</FONT><A=20

href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>> wrote in=20
message<BR>> > </FONT><A=20
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT = face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT =

face=3DArial size=3D2>...<BR>> > > Hi Folks,<BR>> > = ><BR>> >=20 > I've
not long come back from fatland, and am back competing after a =

10<BR>> > > year layoff. Now we've got much better toys to play = with,=20 and I
find<BR>> > > it quite good to record my heart rate using = a Polar=20
S510. I'm shifting<BR>> > > form Tris over to running for the = next few=20 months, 'cos
they're the<BR>> > > next few events that I'm=20 doing.<BR>> > ><BR>>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm 43, and still have about = 10kg to=20 shift to get down to a decent<BR>> >

weight ( I'm 5'10 and = 90kg/200lb=20 at the moment ). Reading through the<BR>> >
dirty mags for = general=20 fitness, they reckon I should be training at a<BR>> >
HR of = 75% =3D=20 (220-43)*.75, which is in the low 130's. I've just come<BR>> > =
back=20 from my daily hour's run, and my average rate is 161, or over = 90%<BR>>
=20 ><BR>> > > Even on the bike, my HR is between 150-155. = Should I be=20

easing off, or<BR>> > > just ignore the mags???<BR>> >=20 ><BR>> >

Quoted message said:

I surely would like to shift the weight... even = if it's=20 only to get a<BR>> >
better BMI (:<BR>> > ><BR>> = >=20 > Steve<BR>> ><BR>>
<BR>> <BR>>=20 </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C36891.54875DD0--

snip snip

Quoted message said:

a 5k or 10k is still a hard effort, so if someone's not in shape to race a 5k, then maybe some
other fallback is appropriate. But Steve's

been

Quoted message said:

doing hour-long runs at 160bpm, which suggests that a 5 or 10k race wouldn't be too awful.

completely agree.

Tom

The problem with this method when it comes to HR is that one minute is just to darn short. To
determine "threshold" using HR, I argue that one needs to get a steady state HR which takes at least
2 minutes (3 or 4 being better, IMHO).

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

p. 86: Run Graded Exercise Test on Treadmill Preparation
1. use a treadmill that accurately displays speed and has a top speed exceeding your best one-mil
time or has variable incline.
2. an assistant is needed to record the information and operate the treadmill.
3. do not eat for 2 hours before the test. It's generally best if the previous day was light
exercise or a rest day. Warm-up for 10-20 minutes before the test. Note in your log what the
warm-up procedure was.
4. if at any time you feel lightheaded or nauseous, stop the test immediately. You are not looking
for a maximum heart rate on the test, but it's necessary to attain a very high effort level.

Test
1. Start at a slow speed such as 6 mph (9.6 kph) and increase by 0.2 mph

(.3

Quoted message said:

kph) every minute until you can no longer continue.
2. At the end of each minute tell your assistant how great your exertion

is

Quoted message said:

using the RPE scale (place this where it can be seen):

6 7 very, very light 8 9 very light 10 11 fairly light 12 13 somewhat hard 14 15 hard 16 17 very
hard 18 19 very, very hard 20

3. your assistant records your speed, exertion rating and heart rate at

the

Quoted message said:

end of each minute and increases the treadmill's speed to the next level (+0.2 mph, .3 kph).
4. The assistant listens closely to your breathing to detect when it first becomes labored marking
this point as "VT" for ventilatory threshold.
5. Continue until you can no longer hold the speed, and then slow the treadmill gradually to a
walking pace.
6. The data collected should look something like this:

Speed Heart Rate (bpm) Exertion
8.2 147 12
8.4 154 13
8.6 161 13
8.8 166 14
9. 172 15
9.2 179 17 VT
9.4 182 19
9.6 185 20

Enjoy!

Tom

"Steve Holdoway" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...while I'm waiting for the book to arrive, can anyone tell me what Jim Friels method is???

Steve At risk and obviously older than I thought ):

Tom G said:

Perceived exertion is an excellent way to go. I replied to Steve about

HRs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

because that's what he asked about. And I would always recommend a HR monitor for anyone over
35 after a hiatus. In Steve's case it seems

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than justified since I believe he is running at a HR which may be too

high.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regarding swimming and the monitor: it's a problem. Sometimes I use my

tri

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

singlet, but that doesn't work too well either.

To find your LT, I recommend Friel's method. For most people, the LT is

near

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the VT (ventilatory threshold): when your breathing first becomes

labored.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, and athlete will most likely where your PE is about 15-17 or your within 5 heart beats of
your maximal HR.

Tom

"su22" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> maybe im just being tight at the moment and can't afford a HR monitor/going to get my VO2max
> tested, or i just dont like technology... but my fave way to guage how hard im working is
> just my own perceived exertion.
>
> i have no idea what heart rates i train at, but im still in base training, so i just
> swim/bike/run at an intensity that will get me through the distance/time i want to go. how do
> you use a HR monitor

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> swimming? doesnt it get annoying (so you don't end up bothering) to check your HR all the
> time?
>
> also, im just interested to find out how do you determine your

lactate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> threshold? do you have to go to a special testing clinic to do all that stuff?
>
> Su
>
>
>
> --
> This forum is a gateway to the rec.sport.triathlon usenet newsgroup.

Any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

posts you make in this forum will be propogated to usenet.

Tom G said:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C36891.54875DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh no, not the fat burning myth again...

Many people seem to be confused by this issue, as is Sam. One need only = to read some of the
recent body of research to understand this issue. I = have spent several years trying to understand
this complex issue.

I don't know if people are confused by this as much as "overcomplicate" this. Athough
all/most(Only say most here because I didn't verify it all) of the data you state below is
correct it can be rather misleading and over complicating. I've never read Ed Burkes book
but his statement of "the total number of calories that is burnt is whats important" is 100%
correct. Yes you can excercise at a lower intensity and involve a larger percent of the
systems that rely on fat metabolim. However if you eat more calories than you burnt those
calories will be converted back into fat. OTOH if you go out and burn the same amount of
calories at a higher intensity depleting glycogen stores, then don't eat enough to replace
those stores the body will metabolise fat for energy. I have yet to see a definitive study
that takes an individual and tests them over the same distance at a slow pace and a fast
pace and determined that they burned a "statistically different" amount of calories at one
speed versus another. The other catch on such a study would be to then determine that this
difference was due to burning of fat rather than glycogen and not some other factor.
Effieciency, increased drag, flexibility, blah blah blah.. I think the real advantage for
weightloss at lower intensities is not that it is more effiecient of a fat burning
metabolism as people simply have a tendancy of working out longer at lower intensities and
thus the overall caloric burn is larger. In my experiance I can cover alot more
distance(More calories) while doing a LSD than I can a series of high intensity repeats.

~Matt

<Snipped but read really

Matt succinctly stated ...

Quoted message said:

However if you eat more calories than you burnt those calories will be converted back into fat.

I don't think that this is correct factually, but the idea is correct.

Quoted message said:

OTOH if you go out and burn the same amount of calories at a higher intensity depleting glycogen
stores, then don't eat enough to replace those stores the body will metabolise fat for energy.

The bottom line: ingest less calories and exericse over 30 min at a low intensity HR. This is the
best way to burn fat.

By the way, it also builds cappilaries, assisting in faster running etc.

Quoted message said:

I have yet to see a definitive study that takes an individual and tests them over the same
distance at a slow pace and a fast pace and determined that they burned a "statistically
different" amount of calories at one speed versus another.

Oh, I've done this a million times. I've biked for 3 hours at a moderate intensity and biked 3 hours
at a high intensity. Many more calories at the high intensity (duh!). But it's sure hard to get thin
that way! (maybe one of the other reasons is that when you home you eat like there's no tomorrow!)

This IS a useful thread. It's always good to flesh these issues out in a good, friendly on-topic
discussion!

Thanks Matt.

Tom

Tom G said:

Matt succinctly stated ...

Quoted message said:

However if you eat more calories than you burnt those calories will be converted back into fat.

I don't think that this is correct factually, but the idea is correct.

I'm not sure how it is factually incorrect. Maybe not really explanitory but the fact is
extra calories get stored as fat.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH if you go out and burn the same amount of calories at a higher intensity depleting glycogen
stores, then don't eat enough to replace those stores the body will metabolise fat for energy.

The bottom line: ingest less calories and exericse over 30 min at a low intensity HR. This is the
best way to burn fat.

I agree with the less calories but not necessarily the low intensity. I agree that while
doing low intensity work the body relies on a higher percentage of fat metabolism. However
the bottom line is not burning fat it's burning calories. 35 mins of low intensity workout
doesn't burn as many calories as 35 min of high intensity.

Quoted message said:

By the way, it also builds cappilaries, assisting in faster running etc.

Quoted message said:

I have yet to see a definitive study that takes an individual and tests them over the same
distance at a slow pace and a fast pace and determined that they burned a "statistically
different" amount of calories at one speed versus another.

Oh, I've done this a million times. I've biked for 3 hours at a moderate intensity and biked 3
hours at a high intensity. Many more calories at the high intensity (duh!). But it's sure hard to
get thin that way! (maybe one of the other reasons is that when you home you eat like there's no
tomorrow!)

Not sure if you were kidding here, but I stated same distance not time. In the harder effort
for three hours I bet you covered more distance. My point was that if it was truly
beneficial to losing weight at a lower intensity you would have to burn more calories over
the same distance. I'm sure we are all different but I get ravenously hungry after doing a
LSD run. Most likely because of the amount of calories burnt, but I don't seem to get as
hungry while burning nearly the same amount of calories during a slightly higher intensity
ride. Also during high intensity workouts of a middle distance say a interval workout VS a
easy run of a similar distance I'm always more hungry after the easy run. I'm rarely hungry
after a high intensity workout or race. Ususally don't get hungry for a couple of hours
afterwards. I think is more due to a digestive reaction than caloric issue though.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

This IS a useful thread. It's always good to flesh these issues out in a good, friendly on-topic
discussion!

Thanks Matt.

Tom

If you search for a study done by Rupp, Benardot at al (I cannot remember the lead author), the
study involved women. Some exercised at a higher intensity and some at a lower intensity. (Read the
abstract for more details or better yet read the study).

Guess who lost more fat mass. Guess who picked up more lean mass.

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom G said:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C36891.54875DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh no, not the fat burning myth again...

Many people seem to be confused by this issue, as is Sam. One need only = to read some of the
recent body of research to understand this issue. I = have spent several years trying to
understand this complex issue.

I don't know if people are confused by this as much as "overcomplicate" this. Athough
all/most(Only say most here because I didn't verify it all) of the data you state below is correct
it can be rather misleading and over complicating. I've never read Ed Burkes book but his
statement of "the total number of calories that is burnt is whats important" is 100% correct. Yes
you can excercise at a lower intensity and involve a larger percent of the systems that rely on
fat metabolim. However if you eat more calories than you burnt those calories will be converted
back into fat. OTOH if you go out and burn the same amount of calories at a higher intensity
depleting glycogen stores, then don't eat enough to replace those stores the body will metabolise
fat for energy. I have yet to see a definitive study that takes an individual and tests them over
the same distance at a slow pace and a fast pace and determined that they burned a "statistically
different" amount of calories at one speed versus another. The other catch on such a study would
be to then determine that this difference was due to burning of fat rather than glycogen and not
some other factor. Effieciency, increased drag, flexibility, blah blah blah.. I think the real
advantage for weightloss at lower intensities is not that it is more effiecient of a fat burning
metabolism as people simply have a tendancy of working out longer at lower intensities and thus
the overall caloric burn is larger. In my experiance I can cover alot more distance(More calories)
while doing a LSD than I can a series of high intensity repeats.

~Matt

<Snipped but read really

Funny at least one study does not support your claim.

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt succinctly stated ...

Quoted message said:

However if you eat more calories than you burnt those calories will be converted back into fat.

I don't think that this is correct factually, but the idea is correct.

Quoted message said:

OTOH if you go out and burn the same amount of calories at a higher intensity depleting glycogen
stores, then don't eat enough to replace those stores the body will metabolise fat for energy.

The bottom line: ingest less calories and exericse over 30 min at a low intensity HR. This is the
best way to burn fat.

By the way, it also builds cappilaries, assisting in faster running etc.

Quoted message said:

I have yet to see a definitive study that takes an individual and tests them over the same
distance at a slow pace and a fast pace and determined that they burned a "statistically
different" amount of calories at one speed versus another.

Oh, I've done this a million times. I've biked for 3 hours at a moderate intensity and biked 3
hours at a high intensity. Many more calories at the high intensity (duh!). But it's sure hard to
get thin that way! (maybe one of the other reasons is that when you home you eat like there's no
tomorrow!)

This IS a useful thread. It's always good to flesh these issues out in a good, friendly on-topic
discussion!

Thanks Matt.

Tom

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C369A3.617E2AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The proportion of fatty acid oxidation will decline as exercise = intensity increases, but the
absolute amount of fat burned may well be = higher, thus one could "burn" more fat with some
exercise at a higher = intensity.

Second, the above point is really moot since the key is to incur an = energy deficit and not the
subtrate used. How do you explain the = results from this study?

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
list_uids=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract "Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]... "Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh no, not the fat burning myth again...

Many people seem to be confused by this issue, as is Sam. One need = only to read some of the
recent body of research to understand this = issue. I have spent several years trying to
understand this complex = issue.

My suggestion is to: a) reid Friel (p. 38-39), b) read the excellent = article by Holloszy, Kohrt
& Hansen (1998), or c) read some of the = citations I have provided below (perhaps too many).

Perhaps some of the confusion is caused by Ed Burke's book wherein he = states that the total
number of calories burned is what is important - = calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports
physiology and metabolic = studies have not been able to substantiate this claim, and if you think
= about it from an evolutionary point of view, you'll aggree. There would = have to be a metabolic
difference between long-term endurance and = explosive strength.

But don't believe me (as your use of the term "myth" implies), read = the research:

From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation = of carbohydrate and
fat metabolism during and after exercise, Frontiers = in Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027,
September 15, 1998.

Abstract The rate of carbohydrate utilization during prolonged, strenuous = exercise is closely
geared to the energy needs of the working muscles. = In contrast, fat utilization during exercise
is not tightly regulated, = as there are no mechanisms for closely matching availability and =
metabolism of fatty acids to the rate of energy expenditure. As a = result, the rate of fat
oxidation during exercise is determined by the = availability of fatty acids and the rate of
carbohydrate utilization. = Blood glucose and muscle glycogen are essential for prolonged
strenuous = exercise, and exhaustion can result either from development of = hypoglycemia or
depletion of muscle glycogen.=20

Both absolute and relative (i.e. % of maximal O2 uptake) exercise = intensities play important
roles in the regulation of substrate = metabolism. The absolute work rate determines the total
quantity of fuel = required, while relative exercise intensity plays a major role in = determining
the proportions of carbohydrate and fat oxidized by the = working muscles. As relative exercise
intensity is increased, there is a = decrease in the proportion of the energy requirement derived
from fat = oxidation and an increase in that provided by carbohydrate oxidation. = During
moderately strenuous exercise of an intensity that can be = maintained for 90 minutes or longer
(~55-75% of VO2max), there is a = progressive decline in the proportion of energy derived from
muscle = glycogen and a progressive increase in plasma fatty acid oxidation.=20

The adaptations induced by endurance exercise training result in a = marked sparing of
carbohydrate during exercise, with an increased = proportion of the energy being provided by fat
oxidation. The mechanisms = by which training decreases utilization of blood glucose are not well
= understood. However, the slower rate of glycogenolysis can be explained = on the basis of lower
concentrations of inorganic phosphate (Pi) in = trained, as compared to untrained, muscles during
exercise of the same = intensity. The lower Pi level is a consequence of the increase in muscle =
mitochondria induced by endurance exercise training.=20

A large increase in muscle glycogen concentration, far above the level = found in the well-fed
sedentary state, occurs in response to = carbohydrate feeding following glycogen depleting
exercise. It was = recently found that this muscle "glycogen supercompensation" is markedly =
enhanced by endurance exercise training that induces an increase in the = GLUT4 isoform of the
glucose transporter in skeletal muscle.=20

other references:=20

Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. Spina, D.M. Bier & J.O. Holloszy: = Endurance training decreases
plasma glucose turnover and oxidation = during moderate-intensity exercise in men. J Appl Physiol
68, 990-996, = 1990.=20

Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. Gastaldelli, B.D. Williams & R.R. Wolfe: = Regulation of glucose
production during exercise at 80% of VO2peak in = untrained humans. Am J Physiol 273,
E348-E354, 1997.=20

Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during exercise. Sports Sci Exch 8(6):1-6, = 1995.

Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism and prolonged exercise, in Lamb DR, =
Murray R (eds): Perspectives in Exercise Science and Sports Medicine, =
Vol 1: Prolonged Exercise. Indianapolis, Benchmark Press, 1989, pp 1-36.

Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of individual free fatty acids in man. Fed = Proc 34, 2236-2240, 1975.

Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation of = carbohydrate and fat
metabolism during and after exercise, Frontiers in = Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027, September 15,
1998.

Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. Scanlon & M.D. Jensen: Fatty acid = kinetic responses to running
above or below lactate threshold. J Appl = Physiol 79, 439-447, 1995.=20

Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Fat metabolism during = low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am. J. = Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30):
E934=96E940, 1994.

Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. Hargreaves & E.A. Richter: Influence of active = muscle mass on glucose
homeostasis during exercise in humans. J Appl = Physiol 71, 552-557, 1991.=20

Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. Wolfe: Fat metabolism during = low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am J = Physiol 267, E934-E940, 1994.=20

Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Effect of = endurance training on glycerol
kinetics during strenuous exercise in = humans. Metabolism 45: 357=96361, 1996.

Phillips, S. M., H. J. Green, M. A. Tarnopolsky, G. J. F. = Heigenhauser, and S. M. Grant.
Progressive effect of endurance training = on metabolic adaptations in working skeletal muscle.
Am. J. Physiol. 270 = (Endocrinol. Metab. 33): E265=96E272, 1996.

Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. Sidossis, A. Gastaldelli, J.F. = Horowitz, E. Endert & R.R. Wolfe:
Regulation of endogenous fat and = carbohydrate metabolism in relation to exercise intensity and
duration. = Am J Physiol 265, E380-E391 (1993)=20

Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. Carroll, J. Goodwin, and S. Klein. Fat and = carbohydrate metabolism
during exercise in elderly and young subjects. = Am. J. Physiol. 271 (Endocrinol. Metab.
34):E983=96E989, 1996.

Tom

Quoted message said:

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Every thing that my betters have said before me is correct; =

however,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

remember, that the standard formula is more often accurate than =

not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Definitely use Friel's method, but I'd be surprised if there's a =

big

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

differential.

That said, running at 160 is too high if you want to build better =

aerobic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

capacity and/or burn fat. Slow it down - try to keep around 130 =

for most

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

runs, and then once a week give it your best shot.

By the way, for losing weight and running, I've found that an =

excellent

Quoted message said:

(and

Quoted message said:

scientifically grounded) books is Maffetone

=

(amazon.comqid=3D106141685=Open ↗
8/sr=3D

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

=

8-2/ref=3Dsr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks&n=3D507846). = Maffetone

Quoted message said:

has

Quoted message said:

been consistently ranked as tri coach of the year (whatever that =

means).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom

"Steve Holdoway" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Folks,

I've not long come back from fatland, and am back competing =

after a 10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

year layoff. Now we've got much better toys to play with, and I =

find

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it quite good to record my heart rate using a Polar S510. I'm =

shifting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

form Tris over to running for the next few months, 'cos they're =

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

next few events that I'm doing.

I'm 43, and still have about 10kg to shift to get down to a =

decent

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weight ( I'm 5'10 and 90kg/200lb at the moment ). Reading =

through the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dirty mags for general fitness, they reckon I should be training =

at a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HR of 75% =3D (220-43)*.75, which is in the low 130's. I've just =

come

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

back from my daily hour's run, and my average rate is 161, or =

over 90%

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even on the bike, my HR is between 150-155. Should I be easing =

off, or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just ignore the mags???

I surely would like to shift the weight... even if it's only to =

get a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

better BMI (:

Steve

=20

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C369A3.617E2AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1255"> <META content=3D"MSHTML
6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The proportion of fatty acid oxidation will decline = as=20 exercise intensity
increases, but the absolute amount of fat burned may = well be=20 higher, thus one could
"burn" more fat with some exercise at a higher=20 intensity.</FONT></DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D2>Second, the above point is really moot since the key = is to=20 incur an
energy deficit and not the subtrate used. How do you = explain the=20 results from this
study?</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
db=3DPubMed&list_uids=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract">ncbi.=ncbi.=Open ↗
nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=3DRetrieve&db=3DPubMed&list_uid=
s=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract</A></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIX>"Tom G" <<A=20 href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>> =
wrote in=20 message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">="]news:[email hidden]= .il</A>...</DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Sam" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>> wrote=20
in message </FONT><A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT=20 face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT><= /A><FONT=20 face=3DArial
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> Oh no, not the fat burning myth=20
again...<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Many people seem to be confused by = this issue, as=20 is Sam.
One need only to read some of the recent body of research to=20 understand this issue. I
have spent several years trying to understand = this=20 complex issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DXIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My suggestion is to: a) reid Friel =
(p. 38-39), b)=20 read the excellent article by Holloszy, Kohrt & Hansen (1998), or =
q) read=20 some of the citations I have provided below (perhaps too = many).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Perhaps some of the confusion is = caused by Ed=20 Burke's book
wherein he states that the total number of calories = burned is=20 what is important -
calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports = physiology and=20 metabolic studies have not
been able to substantiate this claim, and = if you=20 think about it from an evolutionary
point of view, you'll aggree. = There would=20 have to be a metabolic difference between
long-term endurance and = explosive=20 strength.</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But don't believe me (as your use of = the term=20 "myth"
implies), read the research:</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </DIV></FONT>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. =
M. and=20 Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism = during=20 and
after exercise, <EM>Frontiers in Bioscience</EM>, 3, d1011-1027, = September=20 15,
1998<EM>.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM>Abstract</EM></DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D1><B> <P align=3Dleft></B><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The rate = of carbohydrate=20
utilization during prolonged, strenuous exercise is closely geared to = the=20 energy needs
of the working muscles. In contrast, fat utilization = during=20 exercise is not tightly
regulated, as there are no mechanisms for = closely=20 matching availability and metabolism
of fatty acids to the rate of = energy=20 expenditure. As a result, the rate of fat
oxidation during exercise is =

determined by the availability of fatty acids and the rate of = carbohydrate=20 utilization. Blood
glucose and muscle glycogen are essential for = prolonged=20 strenuous exercise, and exhaustion
can result either from development = of=20 hypoglycemia or depletion of muscle glycogen.
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Both absolute and relative (i.e. % of = maximal=20
O<SUB>2</SUB> uptake) exercise intensities play important roles in the =

regulation of substrate metabolism. The absolute work rate determines = the=20 total quantity of
fuel required, while relative exercise intensity = plays a=20 major role in determining the
proportions of carbohydrate and fat = oxidized by=20 the working muscles. As relative exercise
intensity is increased, = there is a=20 decrease in the proportion of the energy requirement
derived from fat=20 oxidation and an increase in that provided by carbohydrate oxidation. =
During=20 moderately strenuous exercise of an intensity that can be maintained = for 90=20 minutes
or longer (~55-75% of VO<SUB>2</SUB>max), there is a = progressive=20 decline in the proportion of
energy derived from muscle glycogen and a =

progressive increase in plasma fatty acid oxidation. </FONT>
<Q><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The adaptations induced by endurance = exercise=20 training
result in a marked sparing of carbohydrate during exercise, = with an=20 increased
proportion of the energy being provided by fat oxidation. = The=20 mechanisms by which
training decreases utilization of blood glucose = are not=20 well understood. However, the
slower rate of glycogenolysis can be = explained=20 on the basis of lower concentrations of
inorganic phosphate (Pi) in = trained,=20 as compared to untrained, muscles during exercise
of the same = intensity. The=20 lower Pi level is a consequence of the increase in muscle
mitochondria = induced=20 by endurance exercise training. </FONT>
<R><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A large increase in muscle glycogen = concentration,=20 far
above the level found in the well-fed sedentary state, occurs in = response=20 to
carbohydrate feeding following glycogen depleting exercise. It was = recently=20 found that
this muscle "glycogen supercompensation" is markedly = enhanced by=20 endurance exercise
training that induces an increase in the GLUT4 = isoform of=20 the glucose transporter in
skeletal muscle.</FONT>=20 </P></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></FONT>
<DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>other references:=20
</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. Spina, =
D.M. Bier=20 & J.O. Holloszy: Endurance training decreases plasma glucose = turnover and=20
oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise in men. <I>J Appl Physiol = </I>68,=20 990-996,
1990. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. = Gastaldelli, B.D.=20 Williams
& R.R. Wolfe: Regulation of glucose production during = exercise at=20 80% of
VO<SUB>2peak</SUB> in untrained humans. <I>Am J Physiol = </I>273,=20 E348-E354, 1997.
</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during = exercise.=20 <EM>Sports Sci
Exch</EM> 8(6):1-6, 1995.</FONT></DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism and = prolonged=20 exercise, in
Lamb DR, Murray R (eds): Perspectives in Exercise Science = and=20 Sports Medicine, Vol 1:
Prolonged Exercise. Indianapolis, Benchmark = Press,=20 1989, pp 1-36.</FONT></DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of individual = free fatty=20 acids in
man. <I>Fed Proc </I>34, 2236-2240, 1975.</FONT></DIV>
<DXIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. =
M. and=20 Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism = during=20 and
after exercise, <EM>Frontiers in Bioscience</EM>, 3, d1011-1027, = September=20 15,
1998<EM>.</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. = Scanlon &=20
M.D. Jensen: Fatty acid kinetic responses to running above or below = lactate=20 threshold. <EM>J
Appl Physiol </EM>79, 439-447, 1995. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. = Wolfe. Fat=20 metabolism
during low-intensity exercise in endurance-trained and = untrained=20 men. Am. J. Physiol.
267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): E934=96E940,=20 1994.</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. Hargreaves = & E.A.=20 Richter:
Influence of active muscle mass on glucose homeostasis during =

exercise in humans. <I>J Appl Physiol </I>71, 552-557, 1991. = </FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. = Wolfe: Fat=20 metabolism
during low-intensity exercise in endurance-trained and = untrained=20 men. <I>Am J Physiol
</I>267, E934-E940, 1994. </FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. F. = Coyle, and R.=20
R. Wolfe. Effect of endurance training on glycerol kinetics during = strenuous=20 exercise in
humans. <I>Metabolism </I></FONT><FONT face=3DArial>45: = 357=96361,=20
1996.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Phillips, S. M., H. J. Green, =
M. A.=20 Tarnopolsky, G. J. F. Heigenhauser, and S. M. Grant.<STRONG>=20 </STRONG>Progressive effect
of endurance training on metabolic = adaptations in=20 working skeletal muscle. <I>Am. J.
Physiol</I></FONT><FONT = face=3DArial>. 270=20 (<I>Endocrinol. Metab</I></FONT><FONT
face=3DArial>. 33): E265=96E272, =

1996.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. = Sidossis, A.=20 Gastaldelli,
J.F. Horowitz, E. Endert & R.R. Wolfe: Regulation of=20 endogenous fat and carbohydrate
metabolism in relation to exercise = intensity=20 and duration. <I>Am J Physiol </I>265,
E380-E391 (1993) </FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. Carroll, =
J. Goodwin,=20 and S. Klein.<STRONG> </STRONG>Fat and carbohydrate metabolism during = exercise=20
in elderly and young subjects. <I>Am. J. Physiol</I>. 271 = (<I>Endocrinol.=20 Metab</I>.
34):E983=96E989, 1996.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</DIV>
<DVII><BR>> "Tom G" <</FONT><A = href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT = face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>> wrote in message<BR>> </FONT><A=20
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT = face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>> > Every thing that my betters have said before = me is=20 correct;
however,<BR>> > remember, that the standard formula is = more=20 often accurate than
not.<BR>> > Definitely use Friel's method, = but I'd=20 be surprised if there's a
big<BR>> > differential.<BR>> = ><BR>>=20 > That said, running at 160 is
too high if you want to build better =

aerobic<BR>> > capacity and/or burn fat. Slow it down - try to = keep=20 around 130 for
most<BR>> > runs, and then once a week give it = your best=20 shot.<BR>> ><BR>>

Quoted message said:

By the way, for losing weight and = running,=20 I've found that an excellent<BR>>

(and<BR>> > scientifically=20 grounded) books is Maffetone<BR>> ><BR>>
(</FONT><A=20
=
href=3D"amazon.comqid=3D10=Open ↗
61416858/sr"><FONT=20 face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>amazon.comqid=3D1=Open ↗
61416859/sr</FONT></A><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>=3D<BR>> >=20
=
8-2/ref=3Dsr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks&n=3D507=
61416860).=20 Maffetone<BR>> has<BR>> > been consistently ranked as tri = coach of=20 the
year (whatever that means).<BR>> ><BR>> > Tom<BR>>=20 ><BR>>

Quoted message said:

<BR>> > "Steve Holdoway" <</FONT><A=20

href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>> wrote in=20
message<BR>> > </FONT><A=20
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT = face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT =

face=3DArial size=3D2>...<BR>> > > Hi Folks,<BR>> > = ><BR>>=20 > >
I've not long come back from fatland, and am back competing = after a=20 10<BR>> > > year
layoff. Now we've got much better toys to = play with,=20 and I find<BR>> > > it quite
good to record my heart rate = using a=20 Polar S510. I'm shifting<BR>> > > form Tris
over to running = for the=20 next few months, 'cos they're the<BR>> > > next few events =
that I'm=20 doing.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > I'm 43, and still have = about 10kg=20 to
shift to get down to a decent<BR>> > > weight ( I'm 5'10 = and=20 90kg/200lb at the
moment ). Reading through the<BR>> > > = dirty mags=20 for general fitness, they reckon I
should be training at a<BR>> = > >=20 HR of 75% =3D (220-43)*.75, which is in the low
130's. I've just = come<BR>>=20 > > back from my daily hour's run, and my average rate is
161, = or over=20 90%<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Even on the bike, my HR is = between=20
150-155. Should I be easing off, or<BR>> > > just ignore the=20 mags???<BR>> >

Quoted message said:

<BR>> > > I surely would like to = shift the=20 weight... even if it's only to get

a<BR>> > > better BMI = (:<BR>>=20 > ><BR>> > > Steve<BR>>

Quoted message said:

<BR>> ><BR>> = <BR>>=20 </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C369A3.617E2AB0--

Sam said:

If you search for a study done by Rupp, Benardot at al (I cannot remember the lead author), the
study involved women. Some exercised at a higher intensity and some at a lower intensity. (Read the
abstract for more details or better yet read the study).

Guess who lost more fat mass. Guess who picked up more lean mass.

According to the study they lost teh same amount of fat mass. However the high intensity
group gain a significant amount of lean mass were as the low intensity group gained very
little lean mass. This would support the idea that it matters very little waht type high/low
intensity workouts you do for weight loss, but what matters is the total calorie burn. Now
if your goal was to gain lean mass or get faster or something other than to lose weigth that
woudl be a different discussion.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
=Abstract

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom G said:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C36891.54875DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...
> Oh no, not the fat burning myth again...

Many people seem to be confused by this issue, as is Sam. One need only = to read some of the
recent body of research to understand this issue. I = have spent several years trying to
understand this complex issue.

I don't know if people are confused by this as much as "overcomplicate" this. Athough
all/most(Only say most here because I didn't verify it all) of the data you state below is
correct it can be rather misleading and over complicating. I've never read Ed Burkes book but his
statement of "the total number of calories that is burnt is whats important" is 100% correct. Yes
you can excercise at a lower intensity and involve a larger percent of the systems that rely on
fat metabolim. However if you eat more calories than you burnt those calories will be converted
back into fat. OTOH if you go out and burn the same amount of calories at a higher intensity
depleting glycogen stores, then don't eat enough to replace those stores the body will metabolise
fat for energy. I have yet to see a definitive study that takes an individual and tests them over
the same distance at a slow pace and a fast pace and determined that they burned a "statistically
different" amount of calories at one speed versus another. The other catch on such a study would
be to then determine that this difference was due to burning of fat rather than glycogen and not
some other factor. Effieciency, increased drag, flexibility, blah blah blah.. I think the real
advantage for weightloss at lower intensities is not that it is more effiecient of a fat burning
metabolism as people simply have a tendancy of working out longer at lower intensities and thus
the overall caloric burn is larger. In my experiance I can cover alot more distance(More
calories) while doing a LSD than I can a series of high intensity repeats.

~Matt

<Snipped but read really

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C36A5F.91066A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sam, Thanks for bringing another interesting study to light. I pulled up the = article from our
medical school library. Not being a researcher in the area of metabolic processes, I guess that = I
would have to say three things:

1) Science moves forward with often conflicting studies and all that we = can do is look at
the preponderance of valid research; that's all I = tried to do and I think that that's
all we can do. Certainly it appears = that current scientific research primarily
supports one supposition. But = you are correct, this one study seems to claim the
opposite. Or does it.

2) The study did mention that mean weight loss was higher for low = intensity, being that it
was offset by the lack of development of lean = (and more dense and heavier) muscle in the
high intensity group. = Although the following sentence is fairly clear and unambiguous: =
"Posttesting revealed no significant between-group differences for = change in weight,
percent body fat, fat mass, fat-free mass, sum of = skinfold measurements, or sum of
circumference measurements."=20

3) The study you mention was based on a sample of 12 overweight women. = Not very
statistically robust when you consider that it seems to = contradict a large body of
other research.

I guess that we can do more than to user our common sense and rely on = the "experts."

Tom

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]... The proportion of fatty acid oxidation
will decline as exercise = intensity increases, but the absolute amount of fat burned may well be
= higher, thus one could "burn" more fat with some exercise at a higher = intensity.

Second, the above point is really moot since the key is to incur an = energy deficit and not the
subtrate used. How do you explain the = results from this study?

=
ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
list_uids=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract "Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]... "Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh no, not the fat burning myth again...

Many people seem to be confused by this issue, as is Sam. One need = only to read some of the
recent body of research to understand this = issue. I have spent several years trying to
understand this complex = issue.

My suggestion is to: a) reid Friel (p. 38-39), b) read the excellent = article by Holloszy,
Kohrt & Hansen (1998), or c) read some of the = citations I have provided below (perhaps
too many).

Perhaps some of the confusion is caused by Ed Burke's book wherein = he states that the total
number of calories burned is what is important =
- calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports physiology and metabolic = studies have not been able
to substantiate this claim, and if you think = about it from an evolutionary point of view, you'll
aggree. There would = have to be a metabolic difference between long-term endurance and =
explosive strength.

But don't believe me (as your use of the term "myth" implies), read = the research:

From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation = of carbohydrate and
fat metabolism during and after exercise, Frontiers = in Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027,
September 15, 1998.

Abstract The rate of carbohydrate utilization during prolonged, strenuous = exercise is closely
geared to the energy needs of the working muscles. = In contrast, fat utilization during
exercise is not tightly regulated, = as there are no mechanisms for closely matching
availability and = metabolism of fatty acids to the rate of energy expenditure. As a = result,
the rate of fat oxidation during exercise is determined by the = availability of fatty acids and
the rate of carbohydrate utilization. = Blood glucose and muscle glycogen are essential for
prolonged strenuous = exercise, and exhaustion can result either from development of =
hypoglycemia or depletion of muscle glycogen.=20

Both absolute and relative (i.e. % of maximal O2 uptake) exercise = intensities play important
roles in the regulation of substrate = metabolism. The absolute work rate determines the total
quantity of fuel = required, while relative exercise intensity plays a major role in =
determining the proportions of carbohydrate and fat oxidized by the = working muscles. As
relative exercise intensity is increased, there is a = decrease in the proportion of the energy
requirement derived from fat = oxidation and an increase in that provided by carbohydrate
oxidation. = During moderately strenuous exercise of an intensity that can be = maintained for
90 minutes or longer (~55-75% of VO2max), there is a = progressive decline in the proportion of
energy derived from muscle = glycogen and a progressive increase in plasma fatty acid
oxidation.=20

The adaptations induced by endurance exercise training result in a = marked sparing of
carbohydrate during exercise, with an increased = proportion of the energy being provided by fat
oxidation. The mechanisms = by which training decreases utilization of blood glucose are not
well = understood. However, the slower rate of glycogenolysis can be explained = on the basis of
lower concentrations of inorganic phosphate (Pi) in = trained, as compared to untrained, muscles
during exercise of the same = intensity. The lower Pi level is a consequence of the increase in
muscle = mitochondria induced by endurance exercise training.=20

A large increase in muscle glycogen concentration, far above the = level found in the well-fed
sedentary state, occurs in response to = carbohydrate feeding following glycogen depleting
exercise. It was = recently found that this muscle "glycogen supercompensation" is markedly =
enhanced by endurance exercise training that induces an increase in the = GLUT4 isoform of the
glucose transporter in skeletal muscle.=20

other references:=20

Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. Spina, D.M. Bier & J.O. Holloszy: = Endurance training decreases
plasma glucose turnover and oxidation = during moderate-intensity exercise in men. J Appl
Physiol 68, 990-996, = 1990.=20

Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. Gastaldelli, B.D. Williams & R.R. = Wolfe: Regulation of glucose
production during exercise at 80% of = VO2peak in untrained humans. Am J Physiol 273,
E348-E354, 1997.=20

Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during exercise. Sports Sci Exch 8(6):1-6, = 1995.

Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism and prolonged exercise, in Lamb DR, = Murray R (eds):
Perspectives in Exercise Science and Sports Medicine, = Vol 1: Prolonged Exercise. Indianapolis,
Benchmark Press, 1989, pp 1-36.

Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of individual free fatty acids in man. Fed = Proc 34, 2236-2240, 1975.

Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation of = carbohydrate and fat
metabolism during and after exercise, Frontiers in = Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027,
September 15, 1998.

Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. Scanlon & M.D. Jensen: Fatty acid = kinetic responses to running
above or below lactate threshold. J Appl = Physiol 79, 439-447, 1995.=20

Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Fat metabolism during = low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am. J. = Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30):
E934=96E940, 1994.

Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. Hargreaves & E.A. Richter: Influence of = active muscle mass on glucose
homeostasis during exercise in humans. J = Appl Physiol 71, 552-557, 1991.=20

Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. Wolfe: Fat metabolism during = low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am J = Physiol 267, E934-E940, 1994.=20

Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Effect of = endurance training on glycerol
kinetics during strenuous exercise in = humans. Metabolism 45: 357=96361, 1996.

Phillips, S. M., H. J. Green, M. A. Tarnopolsky, G. J. F. = Heigenhauser, and S. M. Grant.
Progressive effect of endurance training = on metabolic adaptations in working skeletal muscle.
Am. J. Physiol. 270 = (Endocrinol. Metab. 33): E265=96E272, 1996.

Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. Sidossis, A. Gastaldelli, J.F. = Horowitz, E. Endert & R.R.
Wolfe: Regulation of endogenous fat and = carbohydrate metabolism in relation to exercise
intensity and duration. = Am J Physiol 265, E380-E391 (1993)=20

Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. Carroll, J. Goodwin, and S. Klein. Fat = and carbohydrate metabolism
during exercise in elderly and young = subjects. Am. J. Physiol. 271 (Endocrinol. Metab.
34):E983=96E989, 1996.

Tom

Quoted message said:

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Every thing that my betters have said before me is correct; =

however,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

remember, that the standard formula is more often accurate than =

not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Definitely use Friel's method, but I'd be surprised if there's a =

big

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

differential.

That said, running at 160 is too high if you want to build =

better aerobic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

capacity and/or burn fat. Slow it down - try to keep around 130 =

for most

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

runs, and then once a week give it your best shot.

By the way, for losing weight and running, I've found that an =

excellent

Quoted message said:

(and

Quoted message said:

scientifically grounded) books is Maffetone

=

(amazon.comqid=3D106141685=Open ↗
8/sr=3D

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

=

8-2/ref=3Dsr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks&n=3D507846). = Maffetone

Quoted message said:

has

Quoted message said:

been consistently ranked as tri coach of the year (whatever that =

means).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom

"Steve Holdoway" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Folks,

I've not long come back from fatland, and am back competing =

after a 10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

year layoff. Now we've got much better toys to play with, and =

I find

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it quite good to record my heart rate using a Polar S510. I'm =

shifting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

form Tris over to running for the next few months, 'cos =

they're the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

next few events that I'm doing.

I'm 43, and still have about 10kg to shift to get down to a =

decent

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weight ( I'm 5'10 and 90kg/200lb at the moment ). Reading =

through the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dirty mags for general fitness, they reckon I should be =

training at a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HR of 75% =3D (220-43)*.75, which is in the low 130's. I've =

just come

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

back from my daily hour's run, and my average rate is 161, or =

over 90%

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even on the bike, my HR is between 150-155. Should I be easing =

off, or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just ignore the mags???

I surely would like to shift the weight... even if it's only =

to get a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

better BMI (:

Steve

=20

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C36A5F.91066A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1255"> <META content=3D"MSHTML
6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sam,</FONT></DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for bringing another interesting = study to=20 light. I
pulled up the article from our medical school = library.</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Not being a researcher in the area of = metabolic=20 processes, I
guess that I would have to say three things:</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1) Science moves forward with often = conflicting=20 studies and
all that we can do is look at the preponderance of valid = research;=20 that's all I tried to
do and I think that that's all we can do. = Certainly it=20 appears that current scientific
research primarily supports one = supposition. But=20 you are correct, this one study seems
to claim the opposite. Or does=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2) The study did mention that mean = weight loss was=20 higher
for low intensity, being that it was offset by the lack of = development of=20 lean (and more
dense and heavier) muscle in the high intensity group. = Although=20 the following sentence
is fairly clear and unambiguous: <FONT = size=3D3><FONT=20 size=3D2>"Posttesting revealed no
significant between-group differences = for change=20 in weight, percent body fat, fat mass,
fat-free mass, sum of skinfold=20 measurements, or sum of circumference measurements.</FONT>"
= </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3) The study you mention was based on a = sample of=20 12
overweight women. Not very statistically robust when you consider = that it=20 seems to
contradict a large body of other research.</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I guess that we can do more than to = user our common=20 sense
and rely on the "experts."</FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DXIII>"Sam" <<A=20
=
href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>= >=20 wrote in
message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:Zy=
[email hidden]</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The proportion of fatty acid oxidation will = decline as=20 exercise
intensity increases, but the absolute amount of fat burned = may well=20 be higher, thus
one could "burn" more fat with some exercise at a = higher=20 intensity.</FONT></DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D2>Second, the above point is really moot since the = key is to=20 incur an
energy deficit and not the subtrate used. How do you = explain=20 the results from
this study?</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
href=3D"ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
db=3DPubMed&list_uids=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract">ncbi.=ncbi.=Open ↗
nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=3DRetrieve&db=3DPubMed&list_uid=
s=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract</A></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT:
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIX>"Tom G" <<A=20
=
href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>> = wrote in=20 message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">="]news:[email hidden]= .il</A>...</DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Sam" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>>=20
wrote in message </FONT><A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT=20 face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT><= /A><FONT=20 face=3DArial
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> Oh no, not the fat burning = myth=20
again...<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Many people seem to be confused by = this issue,=20 as is
Sam. One need only to read some of the recent body of research = to=20 understand this
issue. I have spent several years trying to = understand this=20 complex
issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DXIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My suggestion is to: a) reid Friel =
(p. 38-39),=20
q) read the excellent article by Holloszy, Kohrt & Hansen =
(1998), or c)=20 read some of the citations I have provided below (perhaps too=20
many).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Perhaps some of the confusion is = caused by Ed=20 Burke's
book wherein he states that the total number of calories = burned is=20 what is
important - calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports = physiology=20 and metabolic
studies have not been able to substantiate this claim, = and if=20 you think about it
from an evolutionary point of view, you'll = aggree. There=20 would have to be a
metabolic difference between long-term endurance = and=20 explosive
strength.</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But don't believe me (as your use = of the term=20 "myth"
implies), read the research:</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </DIV></FONT>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. =
M. and=20 Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism = during=20 and
after exercise, <EM>Frontiers in Bioscience</EM>, 3, d1011-1027, =

September 15, 1998<EM>.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM>Abstract</EM></DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D1><B> <P align=3Dleft></B><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The = rate of=20
carbohydrate utilization during prolonged, strenuous exercise is = closely=20 geared to
the energy needs of the working muscles. In contrast, fat=20 utilization during exercise
is not tightly regulated, as there are = no=20 mechanisms for closely matching
availability and metabolism of fatty = acids=20 to the rate of energy expenditure. As a
result, the rate of fat = oxidation=20 during exercise is determined by the availability
of fatty acids and = the=20 rate of carbohydrate utilization. Blood glucose and muscle
glycogen = are=20 essential for prolonged strenuous exercise, and exhaustion can =
result either=20 from development of hypoglycemia or depletion of muscle glycogen.=20
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Both absolute and relative (i.e. % of = maximal=20
O<SUB>2</SUB> uptake) exercise intensities play important roles in = the=20 regulation
of substrate metabolism. The absolute work rate = determines the=20 total quantity of
fuel required, while relative exercise intensity = plays a=20 major role in determining
the proportions of carbohydrate and fat = oxidized=20 by the working muscles. As
relative exercise intensity is increased, = there=20 is a decrease in the proportion of
the energy requirement derived = from fat=20 oxidation and an increase in that provided
by carbohydrate = oxidation. During=20 moderately strenuous exercise of an intensity
that can be maintained = for 90=20 minutes or longer (~55-75% of VO<SUB>2</SUB>max),
there is a = progressive=20 decline in the proportion of energy derived from muscle
glycogen and = a=20 progressive increase in plasma fatty acid oxidation. </FONT>
<Q><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The adaptations induced by endurance = exercise=20
training result in a marked sparing of carbohydrate during exercise, = with an=20
increased proportion of the energy being provided by fat oxidation. = The=20
mechanisms by which training decreases utilization of blood glucose = are not=20 well
understood. However, the slower rate of glycogenolysis can be = explained=20 on the
basis of lower concentrations of inorganic phosphate (Pi) in = trained,=20 as compared
to untrained, muscles during exercise of the same = intensity. The=20 lower Pi level
is a consequence of the increase in muscle = mitochondria=20 induced by endurance
exercise training. </FONT>
<R><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A large increase in muscle glycogen=20 concentration, far
above the level found in the well-fed sedentary = state,=20 occurs in response to
carbohydrate feeding following glycogen = depleting=20 exercise. It was recently found
that this muscle "glycogen=20 supercompensation" is markedly enhanced by endurance
exercise = training that=20 induces an increase in the GLUT4 isoform of the glucose
transporter = in=20 skeletal muscle.</FONT> </P></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></FONT>
<DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>other=20 references:
</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. = Spina, D.M. Bier=20 &
J.O. Holloszy: Endurance training decreases plasma glucose = turnover=20 and oxidation
during moderate-intensity exercise in men. <I>J Appl = Physiol=20 </I>68, 990-996, 1990.
</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. = Gastaldelli, B.D.=20
Williams & R.R. Wolfe: Regulation of glucose production during = exercise=20 at 80%
of VO<SUB>2peak</SUB> in untrained humans. <I>Am J Physiol = </I>273,=20 E348-E354,
1997. </FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during = exercise.=20 <EM>Sports
Sci Exch</EM> 8(6):1-6, 1995.</FONT></DIV>
<DXIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DXIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism and = prolonged=20 exercise,
in Lamb DR, Murray R (eds): Perspectives in Exercise = Science and=20 Sports Medicine,
Vol 1: Prolonged Exercise. Indianapolis, Benchmark = Press,=20 1989, pp
1-36.</FONT></DIV>
<DXV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of = individual free=20 fatty acids
in man. <I>Fed Proc </I>34, 2236-2240, = 1975.</FONT></DIV>
<DXVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXVIII><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. =
M. and=20 Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism = during=20 and
after exercise, <EM>Frontiers in Bioscience</EM>, 3, d1011-1027, =

September 15, 1998<EM>.</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. = Scanlon &=20
M.D. Jensen: Fatty acid kinetic responses to running above or below = lactate=20 threshold.
<EM>J Appl Physiol </EM>79, 439-447, 1995. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. = Wolfe. Fat=20 metabolism
during low-intensity exercise in endurance-trained and = untrained=20 men. Am. J.
Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): E934=96E940,=20 1994.</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. Hargreaves = & E.A.=20 Richter:
Influence of active muscle mass on glucose homeostasis = during=20 exercise in humans.
<I>J Appl Physiol </I>71, 552-557, 1991. = </FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. = Wolfe: Fat=20 metabolism
during low-intensity exercise in endurance-trained and = untrained=20 men. <I>Am J
Physiol </I>267, E934-E940, 1994. </FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. F. = Coyle, and=20
R. R. Wolfe. Effect of endurance training on glycerol kinetics = during=20 strenuous exercise in
humans. <I>Metabolism </I></FONT><FONT = face=3DArial>45:=20 357=96361,
1996.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Phillips, S. M., H. J. Green, =
M. A.=20 Tarnopolsky, G. J. F. Heigenhauser, and S. M. Grant.<STRONG>=20 </STRONG>Progressive effect
of endurance training on metabolic = adaptations=20 in working skeletal muscle. <I>Am. J.
Physiol</I></FONT><FONT = face=3DArial>.=20 270 (<I>Endocrinol. Metab</I></FONT><FONT
face=3DArial>. 33): = E265=96E272,=20 1996.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. = Sidossis, A.=20
Gastaldelli, J.F. Horowitz, E. Endert & R.R. Wolfe: Regulation = of=20 endogenous
fat and carbohydrate metabolism in relation to exercise = intensity=20 and duration.
<I>Am J Physiol </I>265, E380-E391 (1993) = </FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. Carroll, =
J. Goodwin,=20 and S. Klein.<STRONG> </STRONG>Fat and carbohydrate metabolism = during=20 exercise
in elderly and young subjects. <I>Am. J. Physiol</I>. 271=20 (<I>Endocrinol. Metab</I>.
34):E983=96E989, 1996.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</DIV>
<DVII><BR>> "Tom G" <</FONT><A=20 href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT
face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>> wrote=20 in message<BR>> </FONT><A =
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT=20 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT=20 face=3DArial
size=3D2>...<BR>> > Every thing that my betters = have said=20 before me is
correct; however,<BR>> > remember, that the = standard=20 formula is more often
accurate than not.<BR>> > Definitely use = Friel's=20 method, but I'd be surprised
if there's a big<BR>> >=20 differential.<BR>> ><BR>> > That said,
running at 160 is = too=20 high if you want to build better aerobic<BR>> >
capacity = and/or burn=20 fat. Slow it down - try to keep around 130 for most<BR>>

Quoted message said:

= runs, and=20 then once a week give it your best shot.<BR>> ><BR>> > =

By the=20 way, for losing weight and running, I've found that an = excellent<BR>>=20
(and<BR>> > scientifically grounded) books is = Maffetone<BR>>=20 ><BR>>
(</FONT><A=20
=
href=3D"amazon.comqid=3D10=Open ↗
61416858/sr"><FONT=20 face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>amazon.comqid=3D1=Open ↗
61416859/sr</FONT></A><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>=3D<BR>> >=20
=
8-2/ref=3Dsr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks&n=3D507=
61416860).=20 Maffetone<BR>> has<BR>> > been consistently ranked as tri = coach of=20 the
year (whatever that means).<BR>> ><BR>> > = Tom<BR>>=20 ><BR>>

Quoted message said:

<BR>> > "Steve Holdoway" <</FONT><A=20

href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>> wrote=20 in
message<BR>> > </FONT><A=20
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT = face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT =

face=3DArial size=3D2>...<BR>> > > Hi Folks,<BR>> > = ><BR>>=20 > >
I've not long come back from fatland, and am back = competing after=20 a 10<BR>> > >
year layoff. Now we've got much better toys = to play=20 with, and I find<BR>> > > it
quite good to record my heart = rate=20 using a Polar S510. I'm shifting<BR>> > > form
Tris over to = running=20 for the next few months, 'cos they're the<BR>> > > next few =
events=20 that I'm doing.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > I'm 43, and = still have=20 about
10kg to shift to get down to a decent<BR>> > > weight = ( I'm=20 5'10 and 90kg/200lb at
the moment ). Reading through the<BR>> = > >=20 dirty mags for general fitness, they
reckon I should be training at=20 a<BR>> > > HR of 75% =3D (220-43)*.75, which is in
the low = 130's.=20 I've just come<BR>> > > back from my daily hour's run, and = my=20
average rate is 161, or over 90%<BR>> > ><BR>> > > = Even on=20 the bike, my
HR is between 150-155. Should I be easing off, = or<BR>> >=20 > just ignore the
mags???<BR>> > ><BR>> > > I = surely=20 would like to shift the weight... even
if it's only to get a<BR>> = >=20 > better BMI (:<BR>> > ><BR>> > >
Steve<BR>> =

Quoted message said:

<BR>> ><BR>> <BR>>=20 </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C36A5F.91066A60--

I did my post-doc under John Holloszy at the same time Wendy Kohrt did, and authored/co-authored a
number of the article you cite below. Based on that, I would say that you need spend a few more
years trying to undertand this complex issue before you post again on the topic.

Andy Coggan

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]... "Sam"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh no, not the fat burning myth again...

Many people seem to be confused by this issue, as is Sam. One need only to read some of the recent
body of research to understand this issue. I have spent several years trying to understand this
complex issue.

My suggestion is to: a) reid Friel (p. 38-39), b) read the excellent article by Holloszy, Kohrt &
Hansen (1998), or c) read some of the citations I have provided below (perhaps too many).

Perhaps some of the confusion is caused by Ed Burke's book wherein he states that the total number
of calories burned is what is important - calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports physiology and
metabolic studies have not been able to substantiate this claim, and if you think about it from an
evolutionary point of view, you'll aggree. There would have to be a metabolic difference between
long-term endurance and explosive strength.

But don't believe me (as your use of the term "myth" implies), read the research:

From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat
metabolism during and after exercise, Frontiers in Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027, September 15, 1998.

Abstract The rate of carbohydrate utilization during prolonged, strenuous exercise is closely geared
to the energy needs of the working muscles. In contrast, fat utilization during exercise is not
tightly regulated, as there are no mechanisms for closely matching availability and metabolism of
fatty acids to the rate of energy expenditure. As a result, the rate of fat oxidation during
exercise is determined by the availability of fatty acids and the rate of carbohydrate utilization.
Blood glucose and muscle glycogen are essential for prolonged strenuous exercise, and exhaustion can
result either from development of hypoglycemia or depletion of muscle glycogen. Both absolute and
relative (i.e. % of maximal O2 uptake) exercise intensities play important roles in the regulation
of substrate metabolism. The absolute work rate determines the total quantity of fuel required,
while relative exercise intensity plays a major role in determining the proportions of carbohydrate
and fat oxidized by the working muscles. As relative exercise intensity is increased, there is a
decrease in the proportion of the energy requirement derived from fat oxidation and an increase in
that provided by carbohydrate oxidation. During moderately strenuous exercise of an intensity that
can be maintained for 90 minutes or longer (~55-75% of VO2max), there is a progressive decline in
the proportion of energy derived from muscle glycogen and a progressive increase in plasma fatty
acid oxidation. The adaptations induced by endurance exercise training result in a marked sparing of
carbohydrate during exercise, with an increased proportion of the energy being provided by fat
oxidation. The mechanisms by which training decreases utilization of blood glucose are not well
understood. However, the slower rate of glycogenolysis can be explained on the basis of lower
concentrations of inorganic phosphate (Pi) in trained, as compared to untrained, muscles during
exercise of the same intensity. The lower Pi level is a consequence of the increase in muscle
mitochondria induced by endurance exercise training. A large increase in muscle glycogen
concentration, far above the level found in the well-fed sedentary state, occurs in response to
carbohydrate feeding following glycogen depleting exercise. It was recently found that this muscle
"glycogen supercompensation" is markedly enhanced by endurance exercise training that induces an
increase in the GLUT4 isoform of the glucose transporter in skeletal muscle. other references:

Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. Spina, D.M. Bier & J.O. Holloszy: Endurance training decreases plasma
glucose turnover and oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise in men. J Appl Physiol 68,
990-996, 1990.

Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. Gastaldelli, B.D. Williams & R.R. Wolfe: Regulation of glucose
production during exercise at 80% of VO2peak in untrained humans. Am J Physiol 273, E348-E354, 1997.

Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during exercise. Sports Sci Exch 8(6):1-6, 1995.

Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism and prolonged exercise, in Lamb DR, Murray R (eds): Perspectives in
Exercise Science and Sports Medicine, Vol 1: Prolonged Exercise. Indianapolis, Benchmark Press,
1989, pp 1-36.

Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of individual free fatty acids in man. Fed Proc 34, 2236-2240, 1975.

Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism
during and after exercise, Frontiers in Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027, September 15, 1998.

Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. Scanlon & M.D. Jensen: Fatty acid kinetic responses to running above
or below lactate threshold. J Appl Physiol 79, 439-447, 1995.

Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Fat metabolism during low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am. J. Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): E934–E940, 1994.

Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. Hargreaves & E.A. Richter: Influence of active muscle mass on glucose
homeostasis during exercise in humans. J Appl Physiol 71, 552-557, 1991.

Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. Wolfe: Fat metabolism during low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am J Physiol 267, E934-E940, 1994.

Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Effect of endurance training on glycerol
kinetics during strenuous exercise in humans. Metabolism 45: 357–361, 1996.

Phillips, S. M., H. J. Green, M. A. Tarnopolsky, G. J. F. Heigenhauser, and
S. M. Grant. Progressive effect of endurance training on metabolic adaptations in working skeletal
muscle. Am. J. Physiol. 270 (Endocrinol. Metab. 33): E265–E272, 1996.

Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. Sidossis, A. Gastaldelli, J.F. Horowitz, E. Endert & R.R. Wolfe:
Regulation of endogenous fat and carbohydrate metabolism in relation to exercise intensity and
duration. Am J Physiol 265, E380-E391 (1993)

Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. Carroll, J. Goodwin, and S. Klein. Fat and carbohydrate metabolism during
exercise in elderly and young subjects. Am.
T. Physiol. 271 (Endocrinol. Metab. 34):E983–E989, 1996.

Tom

Quoted message said:

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Every thing that my betters have said before me is correct; however, remember, that the standard
formula is more often accurate than not. Definitely use Friel's method, but I'd be surprised if
there's a big differential.

That said, running at 160 is too high if you want to build better

aerobic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

capacity and/or burn fat. Slow it down - try to keep around 130 for most runs, and then once a
week give it your best shot.

By the way, for losing weight and running, I've found that an excellent

(and

Quoted message said:

scientifically grounded) books is Maffetone

(amazon.comsr=Open ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

8-2/ref=sr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). Maffetone

has

Quoted message said:

been consistently ranked as tri coach of the year (whatever that means).

Tom

"Steve Holdoway" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Folks,

I've not long come back from fatland, and am back competing after a 10 year layoff. Now we've
got much better toys to play with, and I find it quite good to record my heart rate using a
Polar S510. I'm shifting form Tris over to running for the next few months, 'cos they're the
next few events that I'm doing.

I'm 43, and still have about 10kg to shift to get down to a decent weight ( I'm 5'10 and
90kg/200lb at the moment ). Reading through the dirty mags for general fitness, they reckon I
should be training at a HR of 75% = (220-43)*.75, which is in the low 130's. I've just come
back from my daily hour's run, and my average rate is 161, or over 90%

Even on the bike, my HR is between 150-155. Should I be easing off, or just ignore the mags???

I surely would like to shift the weight... even if it's only to get a better BMI (:

Steve

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt succinctly stated ...

Quoted message said:

However if you eat more calories than you burnt those calories will be converted back into fat.

I don't think that this is correct factually, but the idea is correct.

Matts statement is factually correct: both protein (amino acids) and carbohydrates can be converted
to triglycerides.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH if you go out and burn the same amount of calories at a higher intensity depleting glycogen
stores, then don't eat enough to replace those stores the body will metabolise fat for energy.

The bottom line: ingest less calories and exericse over 30 min at a low intensity HR. This is the
best way to burn fat.

But weight loss results from burning calories, not from burning fat. That's why Sam (who has a
master's degree in exercise physiology, BTW - what's your background?) referred to your original
statement as perpetuating "the fat burning myth".

Quoted message said:

By the way, it also builds cappilaries, assisting in faster running etc.

Since muscle capillarization is highly correlated with VO2max, and VO2max values are highest in
individuals competing in middle distance events (e.g., 1500 m running), then one can surmise that
the best way to enhance muscle capillarization is to train at a high intensity, not a low "fat
burning" one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have yet to see a definitive study that takes an individual and tests them over the same
distance at a slow pace and a fast pace and determined that they burned a "statistically
different" amount of calories at one speed versus another.

Running or cycling? Running, the caloric expenditure would be nearly identical, because energy
expenditure increases linearly with velocity (while time to complete a given distance decreases).
During cycling, OTOH, more calories will be expended to cover a given distance at a fast pace than a
slow pace, since wind resistance goes up as the square of velocity.

Quoted message said:

Oh, I've done this a million times. I've biked for 3 hours at a moderate intensity and biked 3
hours at a high intensity. Many more calories at the high intensity (duh!). But it's sure hard to
get thin that way! (maybe one of the other reasons is that when you home you eat like there's no
tomorrow!)

Actually, the studies that have been done find that only high intensity exercise leads to
significant weight loss. Low-to-moderate intensity training generally does not, unless also combined
with deliberate caloric restritction.

Andy Coggan

I think you could have just stopped with that first disclamatory phrase...

Andy Coggan

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]... Sam, Thanks
for bringing another interesting study to light. I pulled up the article from our medical school
library. Not being a researcher in the area of metabolic processes, I guess that I would have to say
three things:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C36A83.302D96E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What studies support the idea of long and slow to burn fat? Sure, the = intensity shifts the ratio
of fuels used, but numerous studies show that = higher intensity training expends more energy. Since
the energy deficit = is the key, it also does not matter what fuel the body = uses--thermodynamics
there. =20

Would you rather expend 300 kcals and 50% from fat or 400 kcals and 40% = from fat?

The study I reported is the best one I have seen (I remember it since 2 = of the authors were
professors or researchers with whom I have worked). = A PubMed search can some up with
several more. =20

Most exercise science studies have small N.

One should always take the sum of the research into account rather than = one study (I agree with
you there), but it really does not contradict = the weight loss research. One positive aspect of
getting people to do = higher intensity exercise (once they are properly trained or at least =
sufficiently trained to be able to do it) is that it allows people to = use a day where they might
not have enough time to do a long run and yet = they can get in a great weight loss workout. The
idea that one needs to = run slow for an hour gives people an excuse to skip a run if they only =
have 40 minutes. I say, heck no...do a tempo type run! It might even = better for fat mass loss.

I had forgotten that in the study the fat mass loss was identical = (statistically) but I would say
that the ability to add lean mass is a = great thing since lean mass is active tissue and expends
energy 24/7 = while fat is not active. From a health perspective increasing lean mass = is a great
thing. However, you also misrepresent the study results with = that statement. Remember one group
exercised at a higher intensity for = a shorter period of time (however both groups expended the
same amount = of energy--300kcals IIRC). According to "fat burninng myth", the long, = slow group
should have burned more fat whereas they did not. The study = thus disproves the idea that longer,
slow exercise is superior.

Current scientific research does support one theory and it ain't the fat = burning myth of long
slow exercise.

From a practical and applied standpoint, one would want to start people = exercising with low
intensity exercise but only as a base for increasing = intensity at a later time (even if not
training for competition). Even = if the person does not add formal speedwork, the person should not
be = afraid to increase the intensity. This naturally happens to most people = as they get better.
The "feeling" or perceived exertion level of a 12 = min pace run might change so that the same RPE
is found at a 11 or =
10min/mile pace after a few weeks.

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message = "]news:[email hidden]... Sam,
Thanks for bringing another interesting study to light. I pulled up = the article from our medical
school library. Not being a researcher in the area of metabolic processes, I guess = that I would
have to say three things:

11) Science moves forward with often conflicting studies and all that =
we can do is look at the preponderance of valid research; that's all I =
tried to do and I think that that's all we can do. Certainly it appears =
that current scientific research primarily supports one supposition. But =
you are correct, this one study seems to claim the opposite. Or does it.

12) The study did mention that mean weight loss was higher for low = intensity, being that it was
offset by the lack of development of lean = (and more dense and heavier) muscle in the high
intensity group. = Although the following sentence is fairly clear and unambiguous: =
"Posttesting revealed no significant between-group differences for = change in weight, percent
body fat, fat mass, fat-free mass, sum of = skinfold measurements, or sum of circumference
measurements."=20

13) The study you mention was based on a sample of 12 overweight women. = Not very statistically
robust when you consider that it seems to = contradict a large body of other research.

I guess that we can do more than to user our common sense and rely on = the "experts."

Tom

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]... The proportion of fatty acid
oxidation will decline as exercise = intensity increases, but the absolute amount of fat burned
may well be = higher, thus one could "burn" more fat with some exercise at a higher = intensity.

Second, the above point is really moot since the key is to incur an = energy deficit and not the
subtrate used. How do you explain the = results from this study?

=
ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
list_uids=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract "Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]... "Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh no, not the fat burning myth again...

Many people seem to be confused by this issue, as is Sam. One need = only to read some of the
recent body of research to understand this = issue. I have spent several years trying to
understand this complex = issue.

My suggestion is to: a) reid Friel (p. 38-39), b) read the = excellent article by Holloszy,
Kohrt & Hansen (1998), or c) read some of = the citations I have provided below (perhaps
too many).

Perhaps some of the confusion is caused by Ed Burke's book wherein = he states that the total
number of calories burned is what is important =
- calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports physiology and metabolic = studies have not been able
to substantiate this claim, and if you think = about it from an evolutionary point of view, you'll
aggree. There would = have to be a metabolic difference between long-term endurance and =
explosive strength.

But don't believe me (as your use of the term "myth" implies), = read the research:

From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The = regulation of carbohydrate and
fat metabolism during and after exercise, = Frontiers in Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027,
September 15, 1998.

Abstract The rate of carbohydrate utilization during prolonged, strenuous = exercise is
closely geared to the energy needs of the working muscles. = In contrast, fat utilization
during exercise is not tightly regulated, = as there are no mechanisms for closely matching
availability and = metabolism of fatty acids to the rate of energy expenditure. As a = result,
the rate of fat oxidation during exercise is determined by the = availability of fatty acids
and the rate of carbohydrate utilization. = Blood glucose and muscle glycogen are essential
for prolonged strenuous = exercise, and exhaustion can result either from development of =
hypoglycemia or depletion of muscle glycogen.=20

Both absolute and relative (i.e. % of maximal O2 uptake) exercise = intensities play important
roles in the regulation of substrate = metabolism. The absolute work rate determines the total
quantity of fuel = required, while relative exercise intensity plays a major role in =
determining the proportions of carbohydrate and fat oxidized by the = working muscles. As
relative exercise intensity is increased, there is a = decrease in the proportion of the
energy requirement derived from fat = oxidation and an increase in that provided by
carbohydrate oxidation. = During moderately strenuous exercise of an intensity that can be =
maintained for 90 minutes or longer (~55-75% of VO2max), there is a = progressive decline in
the proportion of energy derived from muscle = glycogen and a progressive increase in plasma
fatty acid oxidation.=20

The adaptations induced by endurance exercise training result in a = marked sparing of
carbohydrate during exercise, with an increased = proportion of the energy being provided by
fat oxidation. The mechanisms = by which training decreases utilization of blood glucose are
not well = understood. However, the slower rate of glycogenolysis can be explained = on the
basis of lower concentrations of inorganic phosphate (Pi) in = trained, as compared to
untrained, muscles during exercise of the same = intensity. The lower Pi level is a
consequence of the increase in muscle = mitochondria induced by endurance exercise
training.=20

A large increase in muscle glycogen concentration, far above the = level found in the well-fed
sedentary state, occurs in response to = carbohydrate feeding following glycogen depleting
exercise. It was = recently found that this muscle "glycogen supercompensation" is markedly =
enhanced by endurance exercise training that induces an increase in the = GLUT4 isoform of the
glucose transporter in skeletal muscle.=20

other references:=20

Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. Spina, D.M. Bier & J.O. Holloszy: = Endurance training
decreases plasma glucose turnover and oxidation = during moderate-intensity exercise in men. J
Appl Physiol 68, 990-996, = 1990.=20

Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. Gastaldelli, B.D. Williams & R.R. = Wolfe: Regulation of glucose
production during exercise at 80% of = VO2peak in untrained humans. Am J Physiol 273,
E348-E354, 1997.=20

Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during exercise. Sports Sci Exch =
8(6):1-6, 1995.

Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism and prolonged exercise, in Lamb DR, = Murray R (eds):
Perspectives in Exercise Science and Sports Medicine, = Vol 1: Prolonged Exercise.
Indianapolis, Benchmark Press, 1989, pp 1-36.

Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of individual free fatty acids in man. Fed = Proc 34, 2236-2240, 1975.

Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. M. and Hansen, P. A. The regulation of = carbohydrate and fat
metabolism during and after exercise, Frontiers in = Bioscience, 3, d1011-1027,
September 15, 1998.

Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. Scanlon & M.D. Jensen: Fatty acid = kinetic responses to
running above or below lactate threshold. J Appl = Physiol 79, 439-447, 1995.=20

Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Fat metabolism during = low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am. J. = Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30):
E934=96E940, 1994.

Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. Hargreaves & E.A. Richter: Influence of = active muscle mass on
glucose homeostasis during exercise in humans. J = Appl Physiol 71, 552-557, 1991.=20

Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. Wolfe: Fat metabolism during = low-intensity exercise in
endurance-trained and untrained men. Am J = Physiol 267, E934-E940, 1994.=20

Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. F. Coyle, and R. R. Wolfe. Effect of = endurance training on
glycerol kinetics during strenuous exercise in = humans. Metabolism 45: 357=96361, 1996.

Phillips, S. M., H. J. Green, M. A. Tarnopolsky, G. J. F. = Heigenhauser, and S. M. Grant.
Progressive effect of endurance training = on metabolic adaptations in working skeletal
muscle. Am. J. Physiol. 270 = (Endocrinol. Metab. 33): E265=96E272, 1996.

Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. Sidossis, A. Gastaldelli, J.F. = Horowitz, E. Endert & R.R.
Wolfe: Regulation of endogenous fat and = carbohydrate metabolism in relation to exercise
intensity and duration. = Am J Physiol 265, E380-E391 (1993)=20

Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. Carroll, J. Goodwin, and S. Klein. Fat = and carbohydrate
metabolism during exercise in elderly and young = subjects. Am. J. Physiol. 271 (Endocrinol.
Metab. 34):E983=96E989, 1996.

Tom

Quoted message said:

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Every thing that my betters have said before me is correct; =

however,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

remember, that the standard formula is more often accurate =

than not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Definitely use Friel's method, but I'd be surprised if there's =

a big

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

differential.

That said, running at 160 is too high if you want to build =

better aerobic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

capacity and/or burn fat. Slow it down - try to keep around =

130 for most

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

runs, and then once a week give it your best shot.

By the way, for losing weight and running, I've found that an =

excellent

Quoted message said:

(and

Quoted message said:

scientifically grounded) books is Maffetone

=

(amazon.comqid=3D106141685=Open ↗
9/sr=3D

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

=

8-2/ref=3Dsr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks&n=3D507846). = Maffetone

Quoted message said:

has

Quoted message said:

been consistently ranked as tri coach of the year (whatever =

that means).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom

"Steve Holdoway" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Folks,

I've not long come back from fatland, and am back competing =

after a 10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

year layoff. Now we've got much better toys to play with, =

and I find

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it quite good to record my heart rate using a Polar S510. =

I'm shifting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

form Tris over to running for the next few months, 'cos =

they're the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

next few events that I'm doing.

I'm 43, and still have about 10kg to shift to get down to a =

decent

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weight ( I'm 5'10 and 90kg/200lb at the moment ). Reading =

through the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dirty mags for general fitness, they reckon I should be =

training at a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HR of 75% =3D (220-43)*.75, which is in the low 130's. I've =

just come

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

back from my daily hour's run, and my average rate is 161, =

or over 90%

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even on the bike, my HR is between 150-155. Should I be =

easing off, or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just ignore the mags???

I surely would like to shift the weight... even if it's only =

to get a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

better BMI (:

Steve

=20

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C36A83.302D96E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1255"> <META content=3D"MSHTML
6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>What studies support the idea of long and slow to = burn=20 fat? Sure,
the intensity shifts the ratio of fuels used, but = numerous=20 studies show that higher
intensity training expends more energy. = Since the=20 energy deficit is the key, it
also does not matter what fuel the body=20 uses--thermodynamics there. </FONT></DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D2>Would you rather expend 300 kcals and 50% from fat = or 400=20 kcals and 40%
from fat?</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT size=3D2>The study I reported is the best one I have seen (I = remember=20 it since 2
of the authors were professors or researchers with whom I = have=20 worked). A PubMed
search can some up with several more. =20 </FONT></DIV>
<DIX><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DX><FONT size=3D2>Most exercise science studies have small =
N.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2>One should always take the sum of the research into = account=20 rather than
one study (I agree with you there), but it really does not=20 contradict the weight loss
research. One positive aspect of = getting people=20 to do higher intensity exercise
(once they are properly trained or at = least=20 sufficiently trained to be able to do it) is
that it allows people to = use a day=20 where they might not have enough time to do a long
run and yet they can = get in a=20 great weight loss workout. The idea that one needs
to run slow for = an hour=20 gives people an excuse to skip a run if they only have 40 =
minutes. I=20 say, heck no...do a tempo type run! It might even better for
fat = mass=20 loss.</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT size=3D2>I had forgotten that in the study the fat mass loss = was=20 identical
(statistically) but I would say that the ability to add lean = mass is a=20 great thing since
lean mass is active tissue and expends energy 24/7 = while fat=20 is not active. From a
health perspective increasing lean mass is a = great=20 thing. However, you also
misrepresent the study results with that=20 statement. Remember one group exercised at
a higher intensity for = a=20 shorter period of time (however both groups expended the same
amount of=20 energy--300kcals IIRC). According to "fat burninng myth", the = long,
slow=20 group should have burned more fat whereas they did not. The study = thus=20
disproves the idea that longer, slow exercise is superior.</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT size=3D2>Current scientific research does support one theory = and it=20 ain't the fat
burning myth of long slow exercise.</FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT size=3D2>From a practical and applied standpoint, one would = want to=20 start people
exercising with low intensity exercise but only as a base = for=20 increasing intensity at
a later time (even if not training for=20 competition). Even if the person does not
add formal speedwork, = the person=20 should not be afraid to increase the intensity.
This naturally = happens to=20 most people as they get better. The "feeling" or
perceived = exertion level=20 of a 12 min pace run might change so that the same RPE is
found at a 11 = or=20
10mio/mile pace after a few weeks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DVI>"Tom G" <<A=20 href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>> =
wrote in=20 message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">="]news:[email hidden]= .il</A>...</DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sam,</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for bringing another = interesting study to=20 light. I
pulled up the article from our medical school = library.</FONT></DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Not being a researcher in the area of = metabolic=20 processes,
I guess that I would have to say three things:</FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1) Science moves forward with often = conflicting=20 studies
and all that we can do is look at the preponderance of valid = research;=20 that's all I
tried to do and I think that that's all we can do. = Certainly it=20 appears that current
scientific research primarily supports one = supposition.=20 But you are correct, this one
study seems to claim the opposite. Or = does=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2) The study did mention that mean = weight loss=20 was higher
for low intensity, being that it was offset by the lack of=20 development of lean (and more
dense and heavier) muscle in the high = intensity=20 group. Although the following sentence
is fairly clear and = unambiguous: <FONT=20 size=3D3><FONT size=3D2>"Posttesting revealed
no significant = between-group=20 differences for change in weight, percent body fat, fat
mass, fat-free = mass,=20 sum of skinfold measurements, or sum of circumference =
measurements.</FONT>"=20 </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3) The study you mention was based on = a sample of=20 12
overweight women. Not very statistically robust when you consider = that it=20 seems to
contradict a large body of other research.</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I guess that we can do more than to = user our=20 common sense
and rely on the "experts."</FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT:
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DXIII>"Sam" <<A=20
=
href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>= >=20 wrote in
message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:Zy=
[email hidden]</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The proportion of fatty acid oxidation will = decline as=20 exercise
intensity increases, but the absolute amount of fat burned = may well=20 be higher, thus
one could "burn" more fat with some exercise at a = higher=20 intensity.</FONT></DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D2>Second, the above point is really moot since the = key is to=20 incur an
energy deficit and not the subtrate used. How do you = explain=20 the results from
this study?</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
href=3D"ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
db=3DPubMed&list_uids=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract">ncbi.=ncbi.=Open ↗
nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=3DRetrieve&db=3DPubMed&list_uid=
s=3D7759741&dopt=3DAbstract</A></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT:
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIX>"Tom G" <<A=20
=
href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>> = wrote=20 in message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">="]news:[email hidden]= .il</A>...</DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Sam" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>>=20
wrote in message </FONT><A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT=20 face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT><= /A><FONT=20 face=3DArial
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> Oh no, not the fat burning = myth=20
again...<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Many people seem to be confused = by this=20 issue, as is
Sam. One need only to read some of the recent body of =

research to understand this issue. I have spent several years = trying to=20 understand this
complex issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DXIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My suggestion is to: a) reid = Friel (p.=20 38-39), b) read
the excellent article by Holloszy, Kohrt & = Hansen=20
(1998), or c) read some of the citations I have provided below = (perhaps=20 too
many).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Perhaps some of the confusion is = caused by Ed=20 Burke's
book wherein he states that the total number of calories = burned is=20 what is
important - calories IS calories. Unfortunately, sports = physiology=20 and metabolic
studies have not been able to substantiate this = claim, and=20 if you think about it
from an evolutionary point of view, you'll = aggree.=20 There would have to be a
metabolic difference between long-term = endurance=20 and explosive
strength.</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But don't believe me (as your use = of the term=20 "myth"
implies), read the research:</FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </DIV></FONT>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. =
M. and=20 Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat = metabolism=20 during and
after exercise, <EM>Frontiers in Bioscience</EM>, 3,=20 d1011-1027, September 15,
1998<EM>.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM>Abstract</EM></DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D1><B> <P align=3Dleft></B><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The = rate of=20
carbohydrate utilization during prolonged, strenuous exercise is = closely=20 geared to
the energy needs of the working muscles. In contrast, = fat=20 utilization during
exercise is not tightly regulated, as there are = no=20 mechanisms for closely matching
availability and metabolism of = fatty acids=20 to the rate of energy expenditure. As a
result, the rate of fat = oxidation=20 during exercise is determined by the
availability of fatty acids = and the=20 rate of carbohydrate utilization. Blood
glucose and muscle = glycogen are=20 essential for prolonged strenuous exercise, and
exhaustion can = result=20 either from development of hypoglycemia or depletion of
muscle = glycogen.=20 </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Both absolute and relative (i.e. % = of maximal=20
O<SUB>2</SUB> uptake) exercise intensities play important roles in = the=20 regulation
of substrate metabolism. The absolute work rate = determines the=20 total quantity of
fuel required, while relative exercise intensity = plays a=20 major role in determining
the proportions of carbohydrate and fat = oxidized=20 by the working muscles. As
relative exercise intensity is = increased, there=20 is a decrease in the proportion of
the energy requirement derived = from fat=20 oxidation and an increase in that provided
by carbohydrate = oxidation.=20 During moderately strenuous exercise of an intensity
that can be=20 maintained for 90 minutes or longer (~55-75% of = VO<SUB>2</SUB>max),
there=20 is a progressive decline in the proportion of energy derived from = muscle=20
glycogen and a progressive increase in plasma fatty acid = oxidation.=20 </FONT>
<Q><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The adaptations induced by = endurance exercise=20
training result in a marked sparing of carbohydrate during = exercise, with=20 an
increased proportion of the energy being provided by fat = oxidation. The=20
mechanisms by which training decreases utilization of blood = glucose are=20 not well
understood. However, the slower rate of glycogenolysis = can be=20 explained on the
basis of lower concentrations of inorganic = phosphate (Pi)=20 in trained, as compared
to untrained, muscles during exercise of = the same=20 intensity. The lower Pi level
is a consequence of the increase in = muscle=20 mitochondria induced by endurance
exercise training. </FONT>
<R><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A large increase in muscle glycogen =

concentration, far above the level found in the well-fed sedentary = state,=20 occurs in
response to carbohydrate feeding following glycogen = depleting=20 exercise. It was recently
found that this muscle "glycogen=20 supercompensation" is markedly enhanced by endurance
exercise = training=20 that induces an increase in the GLUT4 isoform of the glucose =
transporter=20 in skeletal muscle.</FONT> </P></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></FONT>
<DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>other=20 references:
</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coggan, A.R., W.M. Kohrt, R.J. = Spina, D.M.=20 Bier &
J.O. Holloszy: Endurance training decreases plasma = glucose=20 turnover and oxidation
during moderate-intensity exercise in men. =
<DVIII>J=20 Appl Physiol </I>68, 990-996, 1990. </FONT></DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coggan, A.R., C.A. Raguso, A. = Gastaldelli,=20
B.D. Williams & R.R. Wolfe: Regulation of glucose production = during=20 exercise at 80%
of VO<SUB>2peak</SUB> in untrained humans. <I>Am J = Physiol=20 </I>273, E348-E354, 1997.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Coyle EF: Fat metabolism during = exercise.=20 <EM>Sports
Sci Exch</EM> 8(6):1-6, 1995.</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gollnick PD: Energy metabolism = and prolonged=20 exercise,
in Lamb DR, Murray R (eds): Perspectives in Exercise = Science and=20 Sports Medicine,
Vol 1: Prolonged Exercise. Indianapolis, = Benchmark Press,=20 1989, pp
1-36.</FONT></DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hagenfeldt, L. Turnover of = individual free=20 fatty acids
in man. <I>Fed Proc </I>34, 2236-2240, = 1975.</FONT></DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Holloszy, J, O., Kohrt, W. =
M. and=20 Hansen, P. A. The regulation of carbohydrate and fat = metabolism=20 during and
after exercise, <EM>Frontiers in Bioscience</EM>, 3,=20 d1011-1027, September 15,
1998<EM>.</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kanaley, J.A., C.D. Mottram, D. = Scanlon &=20
B.E. Jensen: Fatty acid kinetic responses to running above or = below=20 lactate threshold.
<EM>J Appl Physiol </EM>79, 439-447, 1995.=20 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klein, S., E. F. Coyle, and R. R. = Wolfe. Fat=20
metabolism during low-intensity exercise in endurance-trained and=20 untrained men. Am.
J. Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): = E934=96E940,=20 1994.</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kjaer, M., B. Kiens, M. = Hargreaves & E.A.=20 Richter:
Influence of active muscle mass on glucose homeostasis = during=20 exercise in humans.
<I>J Appl Physiol </I>71, 552-557, 1991. = </FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klein, S., E.F. Coyle & R.R. = Wolfe: Fat=20 metabolism
during low-intensity exercise in endurance-trained and=20 untrained men. <I>Am J
Physiol </I>267, E934-E940, 1994. = </FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Klein, S., J. M. Weber, E. =
F. Coyle,=20 and R. R. Wolfe. Effect of endurance training on glycerol kinetics = during=20
strenuous exercise in humans. <I>Metabolism </I></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial>45: 357=96361,
1996.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Phillips, S. M., H. J. = Green, M. A.=20 Tarnopolsky,
G. J. F. Heigenhauser, and S. M. Grant.<STRONG>=20 </STRONG>Progressive effect of
endurance training on metabolic = adaptations=20 in working skeletal muscle. <I>Am. J.
Physiol</I></FONT><FONT = face=3DArial>.=20 270 (<I>Endocrinol. Metab</I></FONT><FONT
face=3DArial>. 33): = E265=96E272,=20 1996.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Romijn, J.A., E.F. Coyle, L.S. = Sidossis, A.=20
Gastaldelli, J.F. Horowitz, E. Endert & R.R. Wolfe: Regulation = of=20 endogenous
fat and carbohydrate metabolism in relation to exercise =

intensity and duration. <I>Am J Physiol </I>265, E380-E391 (1993)=20 </FONT></DIV>
<DVIII><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sial, S., A. R. Coggan, R. = Carroll, J.=20 Goodwin, and S.
Klein.<STRONG> </STRONG>Fat and carbohydrate = metabolism=20 during exercise in elderly
and young subjects. <I>Am. J. = Physiol</I>. 271=20 (<I>Endocrinol. Metab</I>.
34):E983=96E989, 1996.</FONT></DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DXI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</DIV>
<DXIII><BR>> "Tom G" <</FONT><A=20 href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT
face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>> wrote=20 in message<BR>> </FONT><A=20
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT = face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>> > Every thing that my betters have said = before me is=20
correct; however,<BR>> > remember, that the standard formula = is more=20 often
accurate than not.<BR>> > Definitely use Friel's = method, but=20 I'd be
surprised if there's a big<BR>> > = differential.<BR>>=20 ><BR>> >
That said, running at 160 is too high if you = want to=20 build better aerobic<BR>>

Quoted message said:

capacity and/or burn fat. Slow = it down -=20 try to keep around 130 for

most<BR>> > runs, and then once a = week=20 give it your best shot.<BR>>

Quoted message said:

<BR>> > By the way, for = losing=20 weight and running, I've found that an

excellent<BR>> = (and<BR>> >=20 scientifically grounded) books is
Maffetone<BR>> ><BR>>=20 (</FONT><A=20
=
href=3D"amazon.comqid=3D10=Open ↗
61416858/sr"><FONT=20 face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>amazon.comqid=3D1=Open ↗
61416859/sr</FONT></A><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>=3D<BR>> >=20
=
8-2/ref=3Dsr_8_2/104-4106992-1353525?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks&n=3D507=
61416860).=20 Maffetone<BR>> has<BR>> > been consistently ranked as tri = coach=20 of the
year (whatever that means).<BR>> ><BR>> > = Tom<BR>>=20 ><BR>>

Quoted message said:

<BR>> > "Steve Holdoway" <</FONT><A=20

href=3D""][email hidden]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>> wrote=20 in
message<BR>> > </FONT><A=20
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]"><FONT = face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>"]news:[email hidden]</FONT></A><FONT =

face=3DArial size=3D2>...<BR>> > > Hi Folks,<BR>> > =

Quoted message said:

<BR>> > > I've not long come back from fatland, and = am back=20 competing after

a 10<BR>> > > year layoff. Now we've got = much=20 better toys to play with, and I
find<BR>> > > it quite = good to=20 record my heart rate using a Polar S510. I'm
shifting<BR>> > = >=20 form Tris over to running for the next few months, 'cos
they're=20 the<BR>> > > next few events that I'm doing.<BR>> > =

Quoted message said:

<BR>> > > I'm 43, and still have about 10kg to shift = to get=20 down to a

decent<BR>> > > weight ( I'm 5'10 and = 90kg/200lb at the=20 moment ). Reading
through the<BR>> > > dirty mags for = general=20 fitness, they reckon I should be
training at a<BR>> > > = HR of 75%=20
=3D (220-43)*.75, which is in the low 130's. I've just =
come<BR>> >=20 > back from my daily hour's run, and my average rate is 161, or = over=20
90%<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Even on the bike, my HR is = between=20 150-155. Should I be
easing off, or<BR>> > > just ignore = the=20 mags???<BR>> > ><BR>> > > I
surely would like to = shift=20 the weight... even if it's only to get a<BR>> > > better =
BMI=20 (:<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Steve<BR>> ><BR>>=20 ><BR>> <BR>>=20
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C36A83.302D96E0--

I am new to using a hear rate monitor. This weekend I used it in a Tri. 1/2 mile swim MHR 178, time
16:12, 20 mile bike MHR 186, time 1:03:51, rum 3.2 MHR 187, time 21:32, ave MHR 172.

Would I be safe to thing that the 186 MHR in the bike would be close to my actual max? I don't know
if I could motivate my self to go that fast in a non-race time trial.

I don't that I could ever get my swim rate up to 178 in a pool, not that I would ever monitor my
rate in a work out.

My rate before the start of the swim was 124, would that have any effect on my max rates?

Thanks Lenny

"Harrow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve,

As the others said, the 220 - age is useless, because it can vary so much. My resting heart rate
is in the mid 50's, yet when I do my slower training runs (5 min/km) my heart rate averages around
170. At my race speed (4 min/km) I average over 190 and crack 200 easily on the uphill sections.
(This for 10 to 20km distances).

I am 35, and the 220-age formula predicts my max as 185, which is obviously wrong for me.

I simply use my heart monitor to control my speed on my slower runs (I have a tendancy to keep
speeding up if I don't wear it), and to optimise my performance in a race (I know from experience
what heart rate I can maintain over a particular distance in race conditions).

It is also good to monitor your progress. For example, compare your heart rate for 10km run that
took, say, 50 mins against your heart rate the last time you ran 10km in 50 mins.

Alternatively, run 10km at a particular heart rate, and a month later run the same 10km at that
heart rate, and see how your time drops. I find this to be a very good motivator.

Regards, Harrow.

--
This forum is a gateway to the rec.sport.triathlon usenet newsgroup. Any

posts you make in this forum will be propogated to usenet.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:21:19 GMT, "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<Snipage>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have yet to see a definitive study that takes an individual and tests them over the same
distance at a slow pace and a fast pace and determined that they burned a "statistically
different" amount of calories at one speed versus another.

Running or cycling? Running, the caloric expenditure would be nearly identical, because energy
expenditure increases linearly with velocity (while time to complete a given distance decreases).
During cycling, OTOH, more calories will be expended to cover a given distance at a fast pace than
a slow pace, since wind resistance goes up as the square of velocity.

Most of this post was a reply to Tom G. This was from mine. Not that it matters but I was
thinking of running. The point being calories are calories and it take similar amount of
calories to cover a similar distance on foot. If someone could show that a person burned 110
calories running a mile slow and only 80 running fast then yes a low intensity workout would
be better. As I stated above I have not seen any studies to that effect. Yes cycling would
be a different story but similar concept. My oops.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, I've done this a million times. I've biked for 3 hours at a moderate intensity and biked 3
hours at a high intensity. Many more calories at the high intensity (duh!). But it's sure hard to
get thin that way! (maybe one of the other reasons is that when you home you eat like there's no
tomorrow!)

Actually, the studies that have been done find that only high intensity exercise leads to
significant weight loss. Low-to-moderate intensity training generally does not, unless also
combined with deliberate caloric restritction.

Andy Coggan