Effectiveness of reflectives

Danny Colyer said:

Following the thread at the weekend about reflective gloves and
armbands, I asked a motoring colleague to follow me down the road after
work yesterday so that he could give an opinion on the effectiveness of
my reflective armbands for signalling.

<snip experiment>

Quoted message said:

My colleague was particularly impressed by the band of reflective tape
that I stuck round the bottom of my hat at the weekend. I don't know if
a reflective hat would offer as much benefit to an upright cyclist, but
I'd say that a reflective belt is probably a good thing (actually, I
always used to wear a reflective belt when I rode an upright after dark
anyway).

Earlier this week I rode with a trainee from Fareham to Southampton
along the A27 at peak early evening time. It was advanced level
cycle-training, in the dark, with very heavy traffic, and including
three lane roundabouts. Most of the riding was at 15-20mph within
traffic streams.
I had remembered the posts here about armbands and had put reflective
bands on.
Whilst nowhere near as good an experiment as yours, the effectiveness of
them, particularly on the roundabouts was mentioned.

What really stood out in my mind though, was the ineffectiveness of the
yellow jacket worn by the trainee, who had laid great store in its
visibility. It just merged into the gloomy areas between all the vehicle
and street lights.

John B

John B <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

What really stood out in my mind though, was the ineffectiveness of the
yellow jacket worn by the trainee, who had laid great store in its
visibility. It just merged into the gloomy areas between all the vehicle
and street lights.

So looking like a lemon drop doesn't even achieve much!

I have long thought that reflective materials were the way to go. They
can be incorporated into 'normal' clothing fairly well and don't
necessarily look gaudy.

Different reflective materials vary *enormously* in their performance
and Reflexite deteriorates with use as the little plastic pyramids lose
their edge after flexing and folding.

I like to test reflectives by dressing a friend in them ang usind a head
torch or light at eye level in a dark environment.

Check your old Sam Browne; it may disappoint!

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Danny Colyer wrote:
........

Quoted message said:

As I think Pete Biggs would have expected, my colleague said that it
was a little confusing to see a reflector appear in mid-air when I
signalled. As I expected, though, after seeing the reflector the
shape of the arm quickly resolved itself and he could see the signal.
He felt that the signal was clearer and more visible with the armband
than without, but suggested that a second reflective band would be
useful to make the shape of the arm more obvious. On the strength of
that, I may add bands of reflective tape to the Gore-Tex that is my
usual outer layer for winter cycling.

Thanks for doing the test Dan. I'll seriously consider adding some to my
sleeves then, practicalities permitting. Doesn't help that my usual
winter "jacket" is a really thin Gamex windresistor -- Scotchlite tape is
almost thicker (and less flexible) than the material! (I rely on layers
underneath to keep me warm).

Quoted message said:

My colleague was particularly impressed by the band of reflective tape
that I stuck round the bottom of my hat at the weekend. I don't know
if a reflective hat would offer as much benefit to an upright
cyclist,

Good from the front at least. Mine has a reflective logo.

Quoted message said:

but I'd say that a reflective belt is probably a good thing
(actually, I always used to wear a reflective belt when I rode an
upright after dark anyway).

~PB

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

John B <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

What really stood out in my mind though, was the ineffectiveness of
the yellow jacket worn by the trainee, who had laid great store in
its visibility. It just merged into the gloomy areas between all the
vehicle and street lights.

So looking like a lemon drop doesn't even achieve much!

I don't agree when it comes to the gaudiest yellow or lime-green-yellow
ones. I notice them from a distance and reckon they stand out more often
than they blend in, against various land/urbanscapes, day and night.
Fluorescent orange is sometimes very good (in daylight) as well.

Quoted message said:

I have long thought that reflective materials were the way to go. They
can be incorporated into 'normal' clothing fairly well and don't
necessarily look gaudy.

For those who don't mind gaudy, fluorescents AND reflectives is the way to
go.

Quoted message said:

Different reflective materials vary *enormously* in their performance
and Reflexite deteriorates with use as the little plastic pyramids
lose their edge after flexing and folding.

The most reflective type for clothing I've found so far is Scotchlite 8925
with no plastic coating at all. It's quite durable, though may eventually
wear out from abrasion.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Fluorescent orange is sometimes very good (in daylight) as well.

I have heard it said by some who are red green colourblind that the
hi-vis orange colour used for eg lawnmower cables and jackets is
indistinguishable from grass green.. As this could potentially be 1 in
10 of the male population, I'd go for a different colour.

OB jackets.. finally got round to seriously washing my Altura Nevis as
it was a bit skanky. Large tub of tepid water, dollop of Vanish gel
rubbed into the cuffs with a nailbrush, then soaking for several hours
with occasional stirring with a significant helping of Vanish Oxy.
Stunning results..

The water that was left looked a bit like Troll Soup.

...d

Quoted message said:

So looking like a lemon drop doesn't even achieve much!

Bright clothing in _daylight_ IS eye-catching. But NBG at night.

* If you have a rear mudguard a strip of reflective works a treat and
you can forget about it.

* If /all/ you can see is reflectives ahead, then you get a _much_
better idea of what the damn thing is if it is connected or moves as if
attached to something familiar. That is why some 'suits' with rings
round the arms and legs are hopeless when compared with matchstick-man
lining.

* narrow stripes and tiny blobs will 'get lost in the noise' in an urban
environment and not resolve themselves into anything meaningful until
more a lot closer in a rural one.

PS. If I was the OP I wouldn't be expecting hand signals to be relevant
to overall safety of night cycling. A bonus perhaps but if you really
try to manoeuvre in conflict with other traffic in a rural environment
then you need a lot more road presence than a hand wave can ever give.
A hand signal is not going to be relevant to a motorist who is so far
away as not to be able to see you at and it is never a 'command' just an
indication. If you're stopped and waiting then so are they (eg if
behind) or they are carrying on having the right of way. If you are
moving then HS is a nice thing but not essential.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the icecream business was liquidated
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

"Peter Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So looking like a lemon drop doesn't even achieve much!

Bright clothing in _daylight_ IS eye-catching. But NBG at night.

* If you have a rear mudguard a strip of reflective works a treat and you
can forget about it.

* If /all/ you can see is reflectives ahead, then you get a _much_ better
idea of what the damn thing is if it is connected or moves as if attached
to something familiar. That is why some 'suits' with rings round the arms
and legs are hopeless when compared with matchstick-man lining.

Any idea of a particular make of ready-made "matchstick-man" jacket ? (I
wanted to write "glow in the dark skeleton" there for some reason ;-) )

I'm currently shopping for a replacement for my ancient, disgusting and
exceedingly un-waterprooof twin tone "Lord Anthony" (foppish, eh ? ;-) )
poly cotton wind-cheater I paid 17 quid for 15 years ago.

I have a distinct preference for somewhat baggy un-cycling type clothing
that lets me carry my shoulder-holster style "man bag" comfortably and is
long enough so that following traffic doesn't have to look at my
over-generous rump.

"Helen Deborah Vecht" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John B <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

What really stood out in my mind though, was the ineffectiveness of the
yellow jacket worn by the trainee, who had laid great store in its
visibility. It just merged into the gloomy areas between all the vehicle
and street lights.

So looking like a lemon drop doesn't even achieve much!

Well not at night, no :-) But duting daylight & *dull* conditions, bright
clothing helps you to stand out & be visible.

Quoted message said:

I have long thought that reflective materials were the way to go. They
can be incorporated into 'normal' clothing fairly well and don't
necessarily look gaudy.

At night, reflectives & lighting certainly are the way to go.

Cheers, helen s

gentlegreen said:

Any idea of a particular make of ready-made "matchstick-man" jacket ? (I
wanted to write "glow in the dark skeleton" there for some reason ;-) )

Foska.com - more precisely http://www.foska.com/acatalog/Bones.html

...d

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

John B <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

What really stood out in my mind though, was the ineffectiveness of the
yellow jacket worn by the trainee, who had laid great store in its
visibility. It just merged into the gloomy areas between all the vehicle
and street lights.

So looking like a lemon drop doesn't even achieve much!

I have long thought that reflective materials were the way to go. They can
be incorporated into 'normal' clothing fairly well and don't necessarily
look gaudy.

I take back some of the comments I made on
another thread.

Yesterday morning I saw a cyclist with a yellow jacket (Altura I think).
Stood out like a sore thumb, and it makes the mind think 'cyclist here'.
This was when it was well into daylight.
Reflectives and yellow/orange colours fulfil different jobs.
As this thread has said, yellow jackets would be ineffective in the dark.

I agree with Helen though - reflectives are important. As a car driver I
very often note how even a small patch of reflective shows up.

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

gentlegreen said:

Any idea of a particular make of ready-made "matchstick-man" jacket ? (I
wanted to write "glow in the dark skeleton" there for some reason ;-) )

Foska.com - more precisely http://www.foska.com/acatalog/Bones.html

fab !

(I don't think I'm quite cool enough to wear it though )

John Hearns said:

As this thread has said, yellow jackets would be ineffective in the
dark.

Not everyone contributing to this thread has said that.

From a good distance back I had no difficulty spotting a shiny lime-yellow
Ozzo September jacket on a cyclist I lent it to! Stands out well at night
on roads with street lights, and surely must be better than a black jacket
on dark country roads too. Of course items are improved by adding
retro-reflectives but obviously non retro-reflective stuff reflects /some/
light, including from car headlights.

I think the "silhouette" effect is way over-rated. Generally, light
coloured things are easier to see at night (and day) simply because they
reflect more light. After all, that is how we see everything. Remember
the old safety campaigns telling cyclists to wear white at night? I don't
think they were stupid.

Now someone will mention polar bears in the Arctic ;-)

~PB

Yes yellow is easier to see at night than black.

However, I've seen data showing there's no difference in visibility
between fuorescent hi-vis yellow and normal red, green or other light
colours. The only colour that was significanlty more visible was white,
and that was about twice as visible as the others.

Quoted message said:

Remember the old safety campaigns telling cyclists to wear white at night? I don't

think they were stupid.

You're right - but it's not easy to get white cycling gear!

Quoted message said:

Any idea of a particular make of ready-made "matchstick-man" jacket ? (I
wanted to write "glow in the dark skeleton" there for some reason ;-) )

Sorry, no.
I prefer reflectives on the bike.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the icecream business was liquidated
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

iakobski said:

Quoted message said:

Remember the old safety campaigns telling cyclists to wear white at
night? I don't think they were stupid.

You're right - but it's not easy to get white cycling gear!

Wear your underwear on the outside :-) ...Actually, I really do this on
summer nights sometimes with a white long sleeved over-large "base layer"
over a short sleeve jersey. (Adds a bit of warmth while still being
highly breathable).

~PB

Best thing I have found are reflective bands from Aldi with built in
flashing LED's. Only £3 for a pair. Work fantastically well.

iakobski said:

Quoted message said:

Remember the old safety campaigns telling cyclists to wear white at night? I don't

think they were stupid.

You're right - but it's not easy to get white cycling gear!

And keeping it white for any length of time is tricky too.

...d

Peter Fox said:

Quoted message said:

So looking like a lemon drop doesn't even achieve much!

Bright clothing in _daylight_ IS eye-catching. But NBG at night.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

* narrow stripes and tiny blobs will 'get lost in the noise' in an urban
environment and not resolve themselves into anything meaningful until
more a lot closer in a rural one.

<snip>.

Quoted message said:

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the icecream business was liquidated
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

I agree completely, but I do have great faith in old-fashioned orange
pedal reflectors, and/or reflective heel patches.
Don't know why, but they stand out well, even in urban areas, and are
easily associated with a bike.
I think they work well because there moving quickly, in a distinctive
pattern, and are below the background "noise" lighting from car
tail-lights etc.

Same as for spoke reflectors and reflective tape patches on the rims, I
wouldn't use them on their own, but they are simple, light, you can't
leave them at home once fitted, and the batteries seem to last a long
time :-)

Regards,

bookieb

"iakobski" <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

You're right - but it's not easy to get white cycling gear!

It's even more difficult for it to *stay* white...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.