I think I found my problem

I didn't think of asking my doctor this but, is there a possibility that an
Atkins diet (or any for that matter) can mess up your thyroid?

In article <[email hidden]>,

The Screaming Banshee said:

I didn't think of asking my doctor this but, is there a possibility that an
Atkins diet (or any for that matter) can mess up your thyroid?

Reduction in calories can cause a reduction of reverse and total T-3
production.

Unless your doctor tests for that, it can get missed.

T-4 really does nothing. The body converts that to T-3 which is the
actual active hormone. T-3 is converted to T-2 on the intra-cellular
level in the mitochondria.

You can have a normal T-4 but a low total T-3 and still be screwed up.
Odds are you will have an eleveated TSH, but not always.
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

The Screaming Banshee said:

I didn't think of asking my doctor this but, is there a possibility that an
Atkins diet (or any for that matter) can mess up your thyroid?

What-Atkins-actually-is can't. Make-it-into-a-fad-diet can have
impact.
Don't stay on Induction past day 15, don't have any issue.

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Screaming Banshee said:

I didn't think of asking my doctor this but, is there a possibility that
an
Atkins diet (or any for that matter) can mess up your thyroid?

What-Atkins-actually-is can't. Make-it-into-a-fad-diet can have
impact.
Don't stay on Induction past day 15, don't have any issue.

When I originally started Atkins 1-1/2 years ago I stayed on Induction for 3
MONTHS and lost 32 pounds then I started adding some things like berries and
cottage cheese and upped my carbs some. So being on induction for that
long, maybe it did screw my thyroid up? maybe?

The Screaming Banshee said:

Doug Freyburger said:

The Screaming Banshee wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I didn't think of asking my doctor this but, is there a possibility that
an
Atkins diet (or any for that matter) can mess up your thyroid?

Quoted message said:

What-Atkins-actually-is can't. Make-it-into-a-fad-diet can have
impact.
Don't stay on Induction past day 15, don't have any issue.

When I originally started Atkins 1-1/2 years ago I stayed on Induction for 3
MONTHS and lost 32 pounds then I started adding some things like berries and
cottage cheese and upped my carbs some. So being on induction for that
long, maybe it did screw my thyroid up? maybe?

Per the book potential issues start 6 months after the day you no
lon ger have "a lot to lose". Judging by observed trends of what
happens to whom, "a lot to lose" is 100+ pounds to go.

"The Screaming Banshee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Screaming Banshee said:

I didn't think of asking my doctor this but, is there a possibility

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an
Atkins diet (or any for that matter) can mess up your thyroid?

What-Atkins-actually-is can't. Make-it-into-a-fad-diet can have
impact.
Don't stay on Induction past day 15, don't have any issue.

When I originally started Atkins 1-1/2 years ago I stayed on Induction for

3

Quoted message said:

MONTHS and lost 32 pounds then I started adding some things like berries

and

Quoted message said:

cottage cheese and upped my carbs some. So being on induction for that
long, maybe it did screw my thyroid up? maybe?

I've read a little about Hypothyroid. I don't know too much about it. It
seems like there are some direct causes ( like a tumor ), or unknown, like
some unlucky people just get it. The list of symptoms though, sounds
suspiciously like Syndrome X (Metabolic Syndrome). Perhaps there is a link?
Perhaps Syndrome X manifests itself as Diabetes in some people, and
possibly Hypothyroid in others? Maybe some people with Syndrome X are
actually undiagnosed Hypothyroid. I have heard fat people say they have an
underactive thyroid, but that is what they say. These claims are hard to
believe, given their lifestyle of overeating and inactivity.
Low carb diets have certainly helped people with their cholesterol
problems, high blood pressure, and Diabetes. I'm not saying that low carb
would help, because I really don't know. But I can't see how eliminating
refined carbs and eating natural foods could hurt.
Is there anyone out there that has been diagnosed with Hypothyroid
problems in the past, and are now doing better because of low carb? Some
Type II Diabetics are no longer having to take medication as long as they
stick with low carb. Same with high blood pressure. Are there any
Hypothyroid people out there that were on meds, and now no longer have to
take them?
I have known a few people that have been diagnosed as Hypothyroid. One had
a tumor and had radiation therapy, so has to take meds for life. She was
slim, and then put on a lot of weight in a short time. The other 2 I know
are quite heavy and were always so for as long as I have known them. The
cause of their increased size was blamed on an underactive thyroid and are
taking medication. But it seems, by my observation, that getting fat and
lack of exercise could be the true cause.
I find it hard to believe that low carb( even really low ) would cause
thyroid problems. I would think it would help, if anything. Of course, don't
rely on what I'm saying, because I am just speculating. What does the Doc
say about low carb affecting the thyroid? So far I have not found any bad
things about low carb that may cause future problems for my health. You
never know though. If you find out anything. Please let us know.

Quoted message said:

Tom G said:

I've read a little about Hypothyroid. I don't know too much about it. It
seems like there are some direct causes ( like a tumor ), or unknown, like
some unlucky people just get it.

It also appears to run in families. The problem with that is behavior
also
runs in families so is that a genetic or environmental correlation?
Can't tell.

Quoted message said:

The list of symptoms though, sounds
suspiciously like Syndrome X (Metabolic Syndrome). Perhaps there is a link?
Perhaps Syndrome X manifests itself as Diabetes in some people, and
possibly Hypothyroid in others? Maybe some people with Syndrome X are
actually undiagnosed Hypothyroid. I have heard fat people say they have an
underactive thyroid, but that is what they say. These claims are hard to
believe, given their lifestyle of overeating and inactivity.

It can be *very* hard to tell cause and effect, especially when the two
can form a feedback loop.

Quoted message said:

Low carb diets have certainly helped people with their cholesterol
problems, high blood pressure, and Diabetes. I'm not saying that low carb
would help, because I really don't know. But I can't see how eliminating
refined carbs and eating natural foods could hurt.

Thinking about how Metabolic Syndrome works, I wonder if it
tends to cause hypothyroid. Bouncing insulin from high carb
meals followed by attempts to resist the next meal to avoid
getting fat. Leads to hypoglycemic swings. Leads to adrenaline
release and adrenal exhaustion. Tends to trigger extra activity
on the short-term time scale by the pancreas and on the
long-term time scale by the thyroid. Burning the candle on
both ends eventually causes one end or the other to fail first.
And bingo either diabetes or hypothroid is caused.

My description above is a hypothesis based on a lot of reading
and some very tenuous assembling of the pieces. I've never
read the theory before and I only thought of it based on your
message. It makes sense though I can't think of a good way
to test the hypothesis.

If my guess is correct, then chronic high carbing should tend to
cause hypothyroid and switching to low carbing should put a
stop to any thyroid damage. However I don't see any reason to
suspect that switching from low fat to low carb would reverse any
existing thyroid damage.

So my guess is the earlier in life one starts low carbing the lower
the chance of becoming hypo, but once already hypo switching to
low carb will merely stop matters from getting worse. And any
hypothryoid called by causes other than blood sugar swings
would have no impact on switching to low carb.

Quoted message said:

Is there anyone out there that has been diagnosed with Hypothyroid
problems in the past, and are now doing better because of low carb?

Not me and I can't recall anyone else who's hypothyroid maming
this claim. The problem is the time scale. Diabetes can be
measured hour-to-hour. T3/T4/TSH levels tend to change over a
period of weeks. Hypothyroid folks tend to get tested once or
twice per year, far too infrequently to be able to tell any specific
source for changes.

There's also the fact that severe low carbing (Induction levels and
less) tend to drive T3 output down without driving T4 levels down.
This doesn't appear to cause any thyroid damage but it does tend
to skew blood test results to mass any trend a scientist would
want to look for.

Quoted message said:

Some
Type II Diabetics are no longer having to take medication as long as they
stick with low carb. Same with high blood pressure. Are there any
Hypothyroid people out there that were on meds, and now no longer have to
take them?

I've never heard of anyone reducing thyroid meds from any
dietary plan.

Quoted message said:

I have known a few people that have been diagnosed as Hypothyroid. One had
a tumor and had radiation therapy, so has to take meds for life. She was
slim, and then put on a lot of weight in a short time. The other 2 I know
are quite heavy and were always so for as long as I have known them. The
cause of their increased size was blamed on an underactive thyroid and are
taking medication.

A lot more folks show a few symptoms, go to their annual checkup,
have the doctor notice, get tests, go on the pills, have the symptoms
taper off, all without most folks at the office noticing. I've noticed
this
happening to a bunch of folks at the office over the years but the
only reason I have is it happened to me in the 1980s so I tend to look
for the symptoms in people, making me extra sensative to this
particular issue.

Quoted message said:

But it seems, by my observation, that getting fat and
lack of exercise could be the true cause.

Or at least make it worse. Dropping thyroid makes folks gain and
be less motivated to exercise. Super-hard to tell cause and effect
with a feedback loop.

Quoted message said:

I find it hard to believe that low carb( even really low ) would cause
thyroid problems. I would think it would help, if anything. Of course, don't
rely on what I'm saying, because I am just speculating.

I'm also speculating but the model I suggest above suggests
something different - That long high carbing might tend to hurt the
thyroid, that switching to low carb might tend to prevent thyroid
damage without repairing prior damage. And that it is well
established that very-low-carbing tends to reduce T3 without
reducing T4 or TSH so it's hard to establish what's what.

Quoted message said:

What does the Doc
say about low carb affecting the thyroid? So far I have not found any bad
things about low carb that may cause future problems for my health. You
never know though. If you find out anything. Please let us know.

If you search for anti-Atkins sites you can find people who managed
to get health problems from low carbing. Read their stories and each
and every one failed to follow the directions and abused low carbing
in one spectacular way or another. So IMO reasonable low carbing
with paying attention to the directions causes no health problems.
"You can make it fool-proof, but you can't make it damn-fool-proof." ;^)

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom G said:

I've read a little about Hypothyroid. I don't know too much about it.
It
seems like there are some direct causes ( like a tumor ), or unknown,
like
some unlucky people just get it.

<lots of interesting stuff snipped>

Another keeper, Doug - thanks!

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/73/72Kg

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom G said:

I've read a little about Hypothyroid. I don't know too much about it.

It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seems like there are some direct causes ( like a tumor ), or unknown,

like

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some unlucky people just get it.

It also appears to run in families. The problem with that is behavior
also
runs in families so is that a genetic or environmental correlation?
Can't tell.

Yes. Difficult to tell.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The list of symptoms though, sounds
suspiciously like Syndrome X (Metabolic Syndrome). Perhaps there is a

link?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps Syndrome X manifests itself as Diabetes in some people, and
possibly Hypothyroid in others? Maybe some people with Syndrome X are
actually undiagnosed Hypothyroid. I have heard fat people say they have

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

underactive thyroid, but that is what they say. These claims are hard to
believe, given their lifestyle of overeating and inactivity.

It can be *very* hard to tell cause and effect, especially when the two
can form a feedback loop.

It seems that most of what I hear about it, is that Hypothyroid is the
reason that a person can't lose weight. It is probably more like you say, a
feedback loop that once established, is now difficult to break or to
determine cause.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Low carb diets have certainly helped people with their cholesterol
problems, high blood pressure, and Diabetes. I'm not saying that low

carb

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would help, because I really don't know. But I can't see how eliminating
refined carbs and eating natural foods could hurt.

Thinking about how Metabolic Syndrome works, I wonder if it
tends to cause hypothyroid. Bouncing insulin from high carb
meals followed by attempts to resist the next meal to avoid
getting fat. Leads to hypoglycemic swings. Leads to adrenaline
release and adrenal exhaustion. Tends to trigger extra activity
on the short-term time scale by the pancreas and on the
long-term time scale by the thyroid. Burning the candle on
both ends eventually causes one end or the other to fail first.
And bingo either diabetes or hypothroid is caused.

And the longer the pattern exists, the more difficult to reverse it.

Quoted message said:

My description above is a hypothesis based on a lot of reading
and some very tenuous assembling of the pieces. I've never
read the theory before and I only thought of it based on your
message. It makes sense though I can't think of a good way
to test the hypothesis.

I have not read of a direct relationship either. Hypothyroid is not
mentioned as one of the symptoms of Syndrome X. Yet if you read the symptoms
of each, most are quite similar. Whether one caused the other is difficult
to determine.

Quoted message said:

If my guess is correct, then chronic high carbing should tend to
cause hypothyroid and switching to low carbing should put a
stop to any thyroid damage. However I don't see any reason to
suspect that switching from low fat to low carb would reverse any
existing thyroid damage.

Thyroid damage is similar to kidney or retinal damage. Largely
irreversible.

Quoted message said:

So my guess is the earlier in life one starts low carbing the lower
the chance of becoming hypo, but once already hypo switching to
low carb will merely stop matters from getting worse. And any
hypothryoid called by causes other than blood sugar swings
would have no impact on switching to low carb.

Yes. Low carb probably wouldn't fix it, but it may prevent further
damage.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is there anyone out there that has been diagnosed with Hypothyroid
problems in the past, and are now doing better because of low carb?

Not me and I can't recall anyone else who's hypothyroid maming
this claim. The problem is the time scale. Diabetes can be
measured hour-to-hour. T3/T4/TSH levels tend to change over a
period of weeks. Hypothyroid folks tend to get tested once or
twice per year, far too infrequently to be able to tell any specific
source for changes.

If Hypothyroid just causes weight gain in the beginning, a person that
had it would not realize anything was wrong until past the point of no
return. Whereas a pre-diabetic would probably detect symptoms of too
high/low blood sugar as unusual a lot sooner.

Quoted message said:

There's also the fact that severe low carbing (Induction levels and
less) tend to drive T3 output down without driving T4 levels down.
This doesn't appear to cause any thyroid damage but it does tend
to skew blood test results to mass any trend a scientist would
want to look for.

I see.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some
Type II Diabetics are no longer having to take medication as long as

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stick with low carb. Same with high blood pressure. Are there any
Hypothyroid people out there that were on meds, and now no longer have

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

take them?

I've never heard of anyone reducing thyroid meds from any
dietary plan.

Neither have I, but I assumed it was due to being a little more rare than
Diabetes, and therefore, not talked about as much.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have known a few people that have been diagnosed as Hypothyroid. One

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a tumor and had radiation therapy, so has to take meds for life. She was
slim, and then put on a lot of weight in a short time. The other 2 I

know

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are quite heavy and were always so for as long as I have known them. The
cause of their increased size was blamed on an underactive thyroid and

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

taking medication.

A lot more folks show a few symptoms, go to their annual checkup,
have the doctor notice, get tests, go on the pills, have the symptoms
taper off, all without most folks at the office noticing. I've noticed
this
happening to a bunch of folks at the office over the years but the
only reason I have is it happened to me in the 1980s so I tend to look
for the symptoms in people, making me extra sensative to this
particular issue.

Quoted message said:

But it seems, by my observation, that getting fat and
lack of exercise could be the true cause.

Or at least make it worse. Dropping thyroid makes folks gain and
be less motivated to exercise. Super-hard to tell cause and effect
with a feedback loop.

I can only comment on what I have observed and read about. Increasing
obesity looks to me like the cause or start of the problem. I can not rule
out though, that it could be the other way around.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find it hard to believe that low carb( even really low ) would

cause

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thyroid problems. I would think it would help, if anything. Of course,

don't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rely on what I'm saying, because I am just speculating.

I'm also speculating but the model I suggest above suggests
something different - That long high carbing might tend to hurt the
thyroid, that switching to low carb might tend to prevent thyroid
damage without repairing prior damage. And that it is well
established that very-low-carbing tends to reduce T3 without
reducing T4 or TSH so it's hard to establish what's what.

Quoted message said:

What does the Doc
say about low carb affecting the thyroid? So far I have not found any

bad

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

things about low carb that may cause future problems for my health. You
never know though. If you find out anything. Please let us know.

If you search for anti-Atkins sites you can find people who managed
to get health problems from low carbing. Read their stories and each
and every one failed to follow the directions and abused low carbing
in one spectacular way or another.

I have read a few of the links that are provided by the anti-Atkins people
who post here. Many have had lifelong problems with weight, and then blame a
few months of Atkins' dieting on their maladies.
People who eat a low calorie diet, while suffering a heart attack, don't
blame their diet because little has changed in what types of food they eat.

Quoted message said:

So IMO reasonable low carbing
with paying attention to the directions causes no health problems.

I agree. Thank you for your input.

Quoted message said:

"You can make it fool-proof, but you can't make it damn-fool-proof." ;^)

An excellent and well reasoned presentation, Doug. Thanks.

DustyB

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The list of symptoms though, sounds
suspiciously like Syndrome X (Metabolic Syndrome). Perhaps there is a
link?
Perhaps Syndrome X manifests itself as Diabetes in some people, and
possibly Hypothyroid in others? Maybe some people with Syndrome X are
actually undiagnosed Hypothyroid. I have heard fat people say they have
an
underactive thyroid, but that is what they say. These claims are hard to
believe, given their lifestyle of overeating and inactivity.

It can be *very* hard to tell cause and effect, especially when the two
can form a feedback loop.

....

Dusty Bleher said:

An excellent and well reasoned presentation, Doug. Thanks.

Trouble is, unless I can think of a way to get experimental proof or
a way to gather population data, reasoning is all it is. I itch for
data to show my hypothesis right or wrong.

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dusty Bleher said:

An excellent and well reasoned presentation, Doug. Thanks.

Trouble is, unless I can think of a way to get experimental proof or
a way to gather population data, reasoning is all it is. I itch for
data to show my hypothesis right or wrong.

No problem. Understood. The design and programming of gadgets and
instruments that do those kinds of functions, is what I do. But, just in
overview, it's a complex and temporally distributed problem, to which I
don't (yet!) see a solution.

What you've so clearly presented is only a consolidation of resources and
information. And as such, it doesn't constitute "proof", nor does it confer
any level of certainty to your theory. But that's how all hypothesis are
originated. They start out as a collection of bits of info that when mixed
with some level of empirical evidence becomes the basis for a theory. One
which when put to a valid test, may or may not prove to be valid. But hey!
It's a place to start.

*I* understand that. And as such I was pleased to have read your
formulation. Obviously, absent some sort of validation, it must not be
taken too seriously. But it damn sure makes a heap of sense!

OTOH; just wait for the 'back-biting' vipers--from both sides of the "I
[do/don't] believe" camp--lining up to strike...(:-o)! The only good that
comes of that is that the more of 'em line up to snipe at you for this, the
more likely you were to be goring somebody's ox and being closer to the
truth...(:-o)!!

L8r all,
DustyB