Economics of Custom Frame Building in non Ferrous Materials

"AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is this due to inertia and lack of foresight by the builders? Are the

large

Quoted message said:

capital costs involved? Is it mainly due to being unable to compete with offshore wage levels?

--
Andy Morris

The internet certainly didn't help the local custom framebuilder. Just a few great full time frame
builders can serve a much larger population these days.

Quoted message said:

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
home.in.tum.deoe quotefixOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

The internet certainly didn't help the local custom framebuilder. Just a few great full time frame
builders can serve a much larger population these days.

You overestimate the number of frames a builder can rasonably make. Richard Sachs doesn't make more
frames now per year than he did 5 years ago-well, maybe a couple. there's a limit of how many frmes
a person can make a year so now the internet exposes more builders to more potential customers. I
used to build in LA before I moved but I had customers in New Jersey-all through the internet. It's
a great thing. Phil Brown

AndyMorris' may have said:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu, Ti or carbon.

Techniques for brazing or welding steel are much easier to master (and equip for) than reliably
welding aluminum. Titanium is reportedly at least a full quantum level more difficult than that.
(This is from an aerospace engineer who has to design for the stuff.) Carbon fiber is an entirely
different kind of process. To be competitive or even competent in those materials is probably beyond
the level of expertise that a lot of the older steel frame builders could have handled; the current
ones may just prefer to stay with what is reliable and known.

It may be that more custom builders would have made the transition to new materials if there hadn't
been as much market pressure from the mass-produced units, though. It's probably a combination of
effects, with each case being a bit different.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

andy-<< I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu, Ti or carbon.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Tough to sell a custom, small production ti or carbon and compete with the big boys. I know a local
ti builder but he can't really sell one for less than $2600 or so, and his lack of name recognition
makes it a tough sell when compared to Moots, Seven, etc.

Carbon is just plain expensive(altho Calfee is available in custom). As for aluminum, tough to
copete with the loads and tons of cheapo aluminum in the market now, both in quality(altho the price
may be high, high) and price.

Like the tailor that makes really fine suits in worsted wool...hard to work with, but really fine
product, like Steel and the frame builder.

Also I think most well established and knowledgable frame builders realize that steel offers the
best COMBINATION of qualities that make for a great frameset.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Werehatrack said:

AndyMorris' may have said:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu, Ti or carbon.

Techniques for brazing or welding steel are much easier to master (and equip for) than reliably
welding aluminum. Titanium is reportedly at least a full quantum level more difficult than that.
(This is from an aerospace engineer who has to design for the stuff.)

The actual welding of the frame isn't THAT much more difficult, but setting up the necessary
equipment to do it IS. The most important difference is that you have to be VERY careful to prevent
air from contaminating the weld - just a few molecules of the stuff can affect a weld. And it IS
more difficult to cut and machine (it's hell on cutting tools).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $995 custom ti frame

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What I like best about my steel Pinarello (besides the price and the pretty chromed chainstay) is
that finishing well in my crit races (personal-best of 5th place last time, woo hoo) makes the
riders behind me on lighter, newer bikes feel even worse. I have a friggin' Sora brifteur on the
thing for heaven's sake, not to mention a bell!

Nobody likes it when I use the bell in a race,

I guess I'm nobody, cause I love it when a bell shows up in an intense situation. I would also not
feel any worse because someone with a steel frame was faster than me. I have an 18 lb bike, a 20 lb
bike and a 22 lb steel bike. I don't gain or lose performance on any of the bikes. The difference in
performance between those bikes is much less perceptable than the difference in the natural day to
day variability of my strength/speed/etc... Can you feel when one of your water bottles is full
compared to empty?

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 24 Aug 2003 14:17:29 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies) > And

carbon is just so completely different that some frame builders

Quoted message said:

may not want to get into it. You would just have to ask them, I guess.

If you want "custom" carbon, you have a couple of choices, Calfee and Parlee. Calfee has been in
business longer, but I understand Parlee frames are very nice. I also understand its possible to get
a custom Colnago, but that will probably take alot more time and $$$.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo) said:

andy-<< I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu, Ti or carbon.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Tough to sell a custom, small production ti or carbon and compete with the big boys. I know a
local ti builder but he can't really sell one for less than $2600 or so, and his lack of name
recognition makes it a tough sell when compared to Moots, Seven, etc.

Carbon is just plain expensive(altho Calfee is available in custom). As for aluminum, tough to
copete with the loads and tons of cheapo aluminum in the market now, both in quality(altho the
price may be high, high) and price.

Like the tailor that makes really fine suits in worsted wool...hard to work with, but really fine
product, like Steel and the frame builder.

Also I think most well established and knowledgable frame builders realize that steel offers the
best COMBINATION of qualities that make for a great frameset.

What's that? The extra weight of lugged construction? The lack of natural corrosion resistance? The
general inability to build a frame as light as other materials? The fabulous tales of repairability?

Steel isn't as terrible a material as I jokingly make out here. Indeed, the irony is that my
mountain bike is welded steel (old Kona Kilauea), and my road bike is lugged steel (old low-end
Pinarello). I bought them because they were good deals; the used market is fairly thick with cheap
steel bikes because they have mostly fallen out of favour (bikes with vintage value excepted).

Compared to aluminum, steel used to be cheaper. But that has changed a lot, to the point that
materials costs don't factor into retail frame prices between them; you can get cheap or expensive
frames in either material, sometimes from the same company.

The other tale oft told is that steel frames are repairable, aluminum ones are not. Discounting the
fact that the cost of repairing a frame makes this folly on all but the most costly or sentimental
frames, aluminum can now be properly repaired and treated too:

pyrobike.compyrobike.comOpen ↗

Beyond those considerations, you are left with hand-waving arguments about ride quality, rhyming
slogans, magnetism, and the aesthetics of lugged construction. If you really like lugs, then steel
is real, but I am not so sentimental.

What I like best about my steel Pinarello (besides the price and the pretty chromed chainstay) is
that finishing well in my crit races (personal-best of 5th place last time, woo hoo) makes the
riders behind me on lighter, newer bikes feel even worse. I have a friggin' Sora brifteur on the
thing for heaven's sake, not to mention a bell!

Nobody likes it when I use the bell in a race,

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu, Ti or carbon.

Quoted message said:

><BR><BR>

Quoted message said:

Tough to sell a custom, small production ti or carbon and compete with the big boys. I know a local
ti builder but he can't really sell one for less than $2600 or so, and his lack of name recognition
makes it a tough sell when compared to Moots, Seven, etc.

I actually think its easier to distinguish yourself in steel than in other materials. an aluminum
welded frame is an aluminum welded frame. a steel builder can select dozens of lugs, grind them into
new shapes, use custom bridges, etc., to create a market presence for himself. its much more
expensive and difficult with other materials ... except for carbon.

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu, Ti or carbon.

Techniques for brazing or welding steel are much easier to master (and equip for) than reliably
welding aluminum. Titanium is reportedly at least a full quantum level more difficult than that.
(This is from an aerospace engineer who has to design for the stuff.)

I respectfully disagree with that assertion. Not sure to what that aerospace engineer was referring,
but titanium is not at all difficult to weld and is similar to steel(that is, using the GTAW
process). Aluminum requires an AC arc which transfers a lot of heat to the tungsten and the torch,
and aluminum gives little visual warning as it changes from solid to liquid.

The only real complication with Ti is the absolute requirement for an oxygen-free environment on
both sides of the weld, necessitating back purging with an inert gas. Ti can be more difficult to
machine or otherwise work the pieces into the desired shape and is far more ixpensive than either
steel or AL.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Ted Bennett may have said:

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu, Ti or carbon.

Techniques for brazing or welding steel are much easier to master (and equip for) than reliably
welding aluminum. Titanium is reportedly at least a full quantum level more difficult than that.
(This is from an aerospace engineer who has to design for the stuff.)

I respectfully disagree with that assertion. Not sure to what that aerospace engineer was
referring,

A relatively simple part may require the use of an inert gas chamber with gloves. or an O2-free
*room* with full breathing gear, due to the length of the weld and the impossibility or
impracticality of merely flooding the area of the weld and the back of the seam.

Quoted message said:

but titanium is not at all difficult to weld and is similar to steel(that is, using the GTAW
process).

By comparison to the minimal techniques required for satisfactorily welding ordinary steel, that's
quite a bit more involved. Yes, the same techniques that work for titanium are also effective with
steel, but the reverse is not true. Good welds can be done in steel with relatively simple gear; a
wirefeed inert gas setup can make a better weld than an oxy-acetylene torch, but *none* of the gear
needed for Ti is required for a brazed and gusseted steel frame. The brazing technique, however, is
useless for Ti.

Quoted message said:

Aluminum requires an AC arc which transfers a lot of heat to the tungsten and the torch, and
aluminum gives little visual warning as it changes from solid to liquid.

I'm too familiar with this. When replacing valve seats in aircraft engine cylinders, the aluminum
head may have to be heated to within a hair's breadth of where the cooling fins begin melting. (I
miss working on those, sometimes; I haven't done one in over 20 years, now.)

Quoted message said:

The only real complication with Ti is the absolute requirement for an oxygen-free environment on
both sides of the weld, necessitating back purging with an inert gas. Ti can be more difficult to
machine or otherwise work the pieces into the desired shape and is far more ixpensive than either
steel or AL.

An oxygen-free environment is nice when welding steel, but not mandatory, and only in exotic
applications would a completely O2-free work area be called for; thus, a framebuilder (or other
fabricator) working with steel often, if not usually, needs less skill and less complex equipment
than one working with Ti. And, as you noted, Al has characteristics all its own. (On the other hand,
from several sources, I have heard that once you're used to it, welding Al is less of a bother than
a lot of steel. Not so with Ti, according to the welder in the family, although he says that the
stone [censored] is stainless of unknown alloy...which he works with regularly, since he fabricates and
repairs custom restaurant equipment.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

(Donald Gillies) may have said:

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu, Ti or carbon.
>><BR><BR>

Quoted message said:

Tough to sell a custom, small production ti or carbon and compete with the big boys. I know a
local ti builder but he can't really sell one for less than $2600 or so, and his lack of name
recognition makes it a tough sell when compared to Moots, Seven, etc.

I actually think its easier to distinguish yourself in steel than in other materials. an aluminum
welded frame is an aluminum welded frame.

Well, sort of. There are still design issues galore. I'm sure that you wouldn't equate an aluminum
Next frame with an aluminum Specialized, for instance. (And if you would, well, the obvious tactic
is to buy the Next, toss the crappy stuff that's hung on it, and re-equip it with decent kit.) (And
get *really* strange looks for showing up on a Next with ten times the bike's price of ders, wheels,
seat, stem, forks, etc. Of course, you could always peel the decals...)

Quoted message said:

a steel builder can select dozens of lugs, grind them into new shapes, use custom bridges, etc., to
create a market presence for himself. its much more expensive and difficult with other materials
... except for carbon.

And carbon is just so completely different that some frame builders may not want to get into it. You
would just have to ask them, I guess.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

In article <[email hidden]>, "one of the six billion"

Quoted message said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What I like best about my steel Pinarello (besides the price and the pretty chromed chainstay)
is that finishing well in my crit races (personal-best of 5th place last time, woo hoo) makes
the riders behind me on lighter, newer bikes feel even worse. I have a friggin' Sora brifteur on
the thing for heaven's sake, not to mention a bell!

Nobody likes it when I use the bell in a race,

I guess I'm nobody, cause I love it when a bell shows up in an intense situation. I would also not
feel any worse because someone with a steel frame was faster than me. I have an 18 lb bike, a 20
lb bike and a 22 lb steel bike. I don't gain or lose performance on any of the bikes. The
difference in performance between those bikes is much less perceptable than the difference in the
natural day to day variability of my strength/speed/etc... Can you feel when one of your water
bottles is full compared to empty?

Probably not, but it's a close-run thing to keep up on the climb some races.

Rigged and ready to run (bell, but no water bottles), the Pinarello is 22 pounds according to my
bathroom scale.

I don't ride another road bike to compare this one to, but it doesn't feel heavy when I'm racing.
Then again, the triathlete beside me at the finish last time noted that his new (non-aero
crit-style) wheels felt "more responsive" than his usual (presumably aero) wheels. I don't know.
Maybe he was sensitive enough to notice.

I like the Pinarello because it represents my whole approach to racing, which is to focus on the
things that make me faster. I'm sitting beside guys with sweet $3000 bicycles, in full Euro-team
replica kit. That's cool for them, because I'm sure they enjoy the aesthetics and it probably does
help them get up for the racing.

Meanwhile, I have my wacky pastiche-bike with a carbon fibre Trek fork (it was cheap, and the stock
fork was rusting) and a single Sora 8v shifter setup (because right-side STI does make a difference
in crit racing), and my kit consists of black shorts and either my plain red jersey or my plain
beige jersey. I like the DIY style of it all, (which is to say, my bike budget is low), and I've
been careful to be cheap where cheap doesn't make me slower ($30 Bell Paradox helmet instead of a
sweet Giro Pneumo in Italia tri-colour). I sit in to punish the over-eager triathletes, and I let my
legs and my cornering skills do the talking (mostly they say, "this hurts!"😉

The real point is that I could probably force a pound off of this bike with really judicious
component replacement, but it was a lot easier to just lose 10 pounds off me this Summer, and
there's another 10 that I have my eye on.

I salute your delight in the absurd under intense situations! For you, I will be sure to ring the
bell during Tuesday's race, the last of the season.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau said:

The other tale oft told is that steel frames are repairable, aluminum ones are not. Discounting
the fact that the cost of repairing a frame makes this folly on all but the most costly or
sentimental frames, aluminum can now be properly repaired and treated too: pyrobike.compyrobike.comOpen ↗

That depends on the repair. Replacing main tubes is probably uneconomical, but I bet many repairs
are smaller things like bent dropouts. There steel has an advantage. And repair-by-replacing an
entire frame is a PITA even if the frame is free. I wouldn't necessarily choose a material for these
reasons though. BTW, heaven help us all if Campagmano decide to change the rear spacing again.

Quoted message said:

Nobody likes it when I use the bell in a race,

Race cyclocross. You can get away with that kind of [censored] in cyclocross, people even appreciate it,
or at least the spectators do.

To the OP: Nonferrous materials can involve larger capital costs, like welding equipment and heat
treatment for aluminum, bladder molding and tons of engineering for carbon, etc. There are smaller
builders who build in aluminum and titanium, but not as many. BTW, 30 years ago my guess is that the
US was only partway into its framebuilding renaissance; the UK was probably different.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo) said:

ryan-<< What's that? The extra weight of lugged construction? >><BR><BR>

Why don't you read the post. Didn't mention 'lugs', you did. BTW, I have a
3.6 pound lugged steel frameset. Weigh a stadard aluminum frameset lately?? How about the low end
Seven ti??

I realize that steel frames can be made without lugs, but I was positing lugs as a potential
"benefit" of steel.

Quoted message said:

Ryan<< The lack of natural corrosion resistance? >><BR><BR>

Here we go-aluminum corrodes quite well and I have an 18 year old Ciocc w/o any corrosion on it
or in it.

I don't think most frames succumb to corrosion, but when I hear people extol the virtues of steel,
they generally refrain from mentioning its vices, however minor.

Quoted message said:

ryan<< The general inability to build a frame as light as other materials? >><BR><BR>

Horseshit. My steel builder builds steel in the 3.2 to 3.5 pound range all the time, just like
most aluminum and mid range ti. If ya want a light frameset, sure you can get one, for a lot more
$$($2900 for a Calfee Dragonfly), or in Ti-check out the prices of the 1 kilo ti Litespeed
framesets or perhaps an aluminum/scamdium 1 kilo framesets that are $2500 and may last one
season...

Well, I daresay a 3.2-3.5 lb. steel frame sounds pretty deep into the stupid-light zone for that
material. Meanwhile, a Ti frame (or Al, or carbon fibre) at that same weight is arguably overbuilt,
and not too expensive:

habcycles.comroad.htmlOpen ↗

3.-3.7 lbs. in sizes from 50-64 cm. $695.

(I'm not particularly picking Mark's bikes for any reason other than the nice chart with all the
weights right there; I suspect his bikes are on the cheap and heavy side of Ti frames, not that
there's anything wrong with that.)

Quoted message said:

COMBINATION of things that make a good frameset.

<< Discounting the fact that the cost of repairing a frame makes this folly on all but the most
costly or sentimental frames, aluminum can now be properly repaired and treated too:

pyrobike.compyrobike.comOpen ↗ >><BR><BR>

Folly is right. You need to read some info about how these are 'repaired' and how reliable the
repair is.

Well, that particular company comes from an aviation repair background, and tests for alloy type and
heat-treats their work afterwards. I'm not sure what the folly is, given that post-weld heat
treatment is the one thing that most welding shops can't do to an Al frame.

Quoted message said:

Ryan<< If you really like lugs, then steel is real, but I am not so sentimental. >><BR><BR>

There you go again...never mentioned lugs...

Sure. And welded steel frames (heck, even lugged steel frames) are very good. As I mentioned, I
have two steel bikes: a welded Kona hardtail, and a lugged Pinarello. I race both at a low level
(beer league/Cat 5), and the magnetic nature of the frames is not what holds me back from
greater glory 🙂.

As I mentioned either here or in another thread, I think steel frames are an especially good bargain
on the used market because their cachet (collectibles excepted) has sunk faster than their
functionality.

But in the new frame or bike market, I don't see a lot of market territory that steel frames have
covered well. On the simple two axes of price and weight, there are light steel frames that cost
more than non-Fe frames of the same weight, and there are heavy steel frames that weigh more than
non-Fe frames of the same cost. At the extreme ends of the market, there are (as you mention above)
stupidlight frames that get into the 1 kg range, and a Trek OCLV (a bike I have never heard
described as fragile or underbuilt) frame weighs about 2.3-2.4 lbs, a weight no steel frame is
likely to approach at any price, and OCLV frames are not outrageously expensive by the rarefied
standards of high-end frame pricing.

As for reliability, a frame in any common material should have a service life longer than any
component attached to the frame. 20 years of regular riding, at the bare minimum. I would just
expect that of any normal bike, and have no reason to doubt that in any material, an unforced
road-frame failure sooner than that would indicate a failure in design or manufacture. There are
specific stupid-light frames (in steel and aluminum, though demand for the former is minimal now)
designed outside these parameters, but they come with weight limits and bogus warranties to go along
with their astonishing lightness, and the non-sponsored rider should be forewarned.

Only in the realm of the cheapest road bikes does steel usually have a cost advantage over the
next-cheapest material, which is usually aluminum.

This is quibbling over trifles: what I was trying to say was not that steel frames were a waste of
money. At worst, they are a small waste of money, and at best they have some specific attributes
that make them interesting. One of those (I hesitate to bring it up) is that some lugged steel
bikes are very pretty. Another is that if you are in dire straits and absolutely have to bend your
frame into another shape (say, because it got bent into the wrong shape, or you need to cold-set
your rear triangle to a new spread), then steel is real (and if you have to heat-treat it, steel
will anneal 🙂.

But most riders will probably find a better value off-the-rack in Al frames than Fe frames. And as
long as Habanero keeps selling custom Ti for $995, it will be hard for custom steel builders to
match the price, much less the weight.

That said, a local steel builder may simply offer a better, prettier frame with better service and
faster turnaround. They may even be able to beat the price (though rarely the weight) of most other
custom makers. This is partly because steel lends itself to easy manufacture with relatively
inexpensive equipment, and partly because there are a lot of people able to custom-make steel
frames, leading to a buyer's market.

So I'm curious: although you rebutted some of my knocks against steel, what do you see as the
advantages of steel that make it preferable to other materials (which is to say, mainly to
aluminum). Would you make your arguments only when referring to custom builds, or would you say that
even in the off-the-rack market steel is generally preferable to other materials?

Sheesh, it seems like I've been picking on you a lot this week. Maybe it's time to go for a ride.
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo) said:

ryan-<< I realize that steel frames can be made without lugs, but I was positing lugs as a
potential "benefit" of steel. >><BR><BR>

Then you need to be clearer, instead of posting, "<< ryan-<< What's that? The extra weight of
lugged construction? >> >><BR><BR>

ryan<< I don't think most frames succumb to corrosion, but when I hear people extol the virtues of
steel, they generally refrain from mentioning its vices, however minor. >><BR><BR>

As do those that fail to mention the problems with other materials....like repairability of
carbon, or the soft ride of ti or the lack of durability of aluminum.

Ryan<< Sheesh, it seems like I've been picking on you a lot this week. Maybe it's time to go for a
ride. >><BR><BR>

My skin is a lot thicker than that. I have been slammed by the likes of Jobst, after-all...

Probably because you attribute ride characteristics to Ti frames.

BTW, carbon fibre is easy to repair. Nobody likes to think about it, but carbon fibre is fibreglass
boat technology with a lighter-weight matting. I believe the major reason nobody considers
repairing carbon fibre is because Trek's frame warranty is so good. Don't know if the same goes for
Calfee, et al.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau said:

BTW, carbon fibre is easy to repair. Nobody likes to think about it, but carbon fibre is
fibreglass boat technology with a lighter-weight matting. I believe the major reason nobody
considers repairing carbon fibre is because Trek's frame warranty is so good. Don't know if the
same goes for Calfee, et al.

A broken carbon frame contains a world of mystery as to whether it's been compromised in other than
the obvious place(s). In the aerospace world, a patched composite component would not be used for
this reason.

Boats usually sink gradually, though. :-)

Chalo Colina

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

ryan-<< What's that? The extra weight of lugged construction? >><BR><BR>

Why don't you read the post. Didn't mention 'lugs', you did. BTW, I have a 3.6 pound lugged steel
frameset. Weigh a stadard aluminum frameset lately?? How about the low end Seven ti??

Ryan<< The lack of natural corrosion resistance? >><BR><BR>

Here we go-aluminum corrodes quite well and I have an 18 year old Ciocc w/o any corrosion on it
or in it.

ryan<< The general inability to build a frame as light as other materials? >><BR><BR>

Horseshit. My steel builder builds steel in the 3.2 to 3.5 pound range all the time, just like
most aluminum and mid range ti. If ya want a light frameset, sure you can get one, for a lot more
$$($2900 for a Calfee Dragonfly), or in Ti-check out the prices of the 1 kilo ti Litespeed
framesets or perhaps an aluminum/scamdium 1 kilo framesets that are $2500 and may last one
season...

COMBINATION of things that make a good frameset.

Well that depends on what the purpose is. I think for the non-racer, steel is a very nice choice.
Especially given all the perfectly good used 5.5-6 lb steel frame/forks on the market. One should
expect to pay only $50-100 for these. I train on a 21.5 lb steel bike. But there's no way it is
going to compete when that "COMBINATION" you talk about is slanted heavily towards weight and
possibly lateral/torsional stiffness. I have 5 steel bikes. I bought a $1900 frame/fork CF finally
because it is <3.0 lbs. A new steel frame/fork would likely cost a similar amount and it would weigh
in at about a lb more (at least). Being able to "feel" the lb or two is irrelevent. People get
blisters because they didn't "feel" it soon enough. I can stomp on my light CF frame in a sprint and
it seems quite rigid, for whatever worth this sort of subjectivity has. Granted, it is hard to
separate what is twisting in a sprint, but the CF bike has 225g Al handlebars. I do wonder how a 3.2
lb steel frame would feel, all other things equal. I don't like that twisting feeling in sprints.

Steel is still a very good material, even if it is out of favor currently. But for racing, I think
the "performance factor" gets much more weight when your "COMBINATION" is summed up. There, the edge
goes to other materials, particularly CF. For non-racing, steel is a great choice, and it isn't like
one could not race with it. I did many flat crits last year on my old steel 22 lb crit beast (more
mass to accelerate in sprints). For climbing events, I'll certainly go with the lightest I can
afford: steel isn't happening for that. I'm not going to work hard driving the weight on my body
down to a 21.0 BMI only to add it back on the bike frame.

I didn't have a bell, but I did turn on my rear blinker light for the sprint signs.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

gwhite-

Quoted message said:

If ya want to race, get a throw away aluminum frameset, save even more wierght, get a stiff, light
racing frameset, not CF.

No thanks.

Quoted message said:

OBTW-$1900 for a steel frameset and fork is way too much...

It isn't hard to get up into the $1200-1300 range. The last bit of margin is usually the most
expensive, and this case is no different. It ends up as a personal choice as to whether it is
"worth it."

Quoted message said:

<< I do wonder how a 3.2 lb steel frame would feel, all other things equal. I don't like that
twisting feeling in sprints. >><BR><BR>

On a test machine, i think it would fell a lot alike. A light steel frameset isn't all squishy.

No point in going further with this. Measurements would sort it out. Conceptually, CF would seem to
have the advantage over steel. The issue is probably more magnitude than anything: is it enough to
care about?

Quoted message said:

<< But for racing, I think the "performance factor" gets much more weight when your "COMBINATION"
is summed up. >><BR><BR>

Most 'racers' are more about equipment than performance...

Many may not really know the details, but when they see the total weight at sub 16.5 lbs,... well,
that by itself is simple enough. Steel has trouble getting there. People know it -- it is simple.

Quoted message said:

< I'm not going to work hard driving the weight on my body down to a 21.0 BMI only to add it back
on the bike frame. >><BR><BR>

\Errrrr-adding a pound on the frameset and taking off 10 off your body-not quite the same.

Who said it was? Again, I'm not going to remove weight from my body and needlessly add some back
onto the bike. But since you seem to be asking: how different is a pound on the body versus a pound
on the bike?