Why is SRAM going with a 10s ...

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Lou Holtman said:

Jay Beattie said:

>
>Both ideas are silly.

Another tooth may make you faster -- if being comfortable

in a

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gear makes you faster, which, IMO, it does. Not that I am
advocating for a million-gear cassette, but there have been

times

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I wished for a 20 or a 22 or whatever other in-between gear

I was

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missing at the time -- or an extra gear at the top or

bottom end.

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This mostly occurred in races or when I was being pushed

hard on

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a ride. The real question is whether having an in-between

gear

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or an extra gear is worth the expense of 10 speed and the
shortened chain and cassette life.

Why do you think the a 10 speed chain and cassette have a

shortened

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life? It's not my experience. My nine speed cassette and

chain has the

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shortest lifetime.......because they are on my MTB. My 10

speed stuff on

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my road bike last as long as my 9 speed stuff before that.

Lou

Agree. Chain and cogset life for 10s is samo as 9s..

I'm going on what I have heard about Shimano 10, which may be a
matter of YMMV. I don't own any 10s bikes. I can say that based
on personal experience, my nine speed SRAM chains have not held
up as well as my 8 speeds (which actually take more abuse). The
cassettes are about the same. -- Jay Beattie.

"amakyonin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

I think SRAM saw the hole in the future market (low-cost road groups) and
decided to take the plunge, starting with a high end group. They've
bought
up so many companies already that it's becoming a decent conglomerate.

It remains to be seen how low cost the SRAM road group will be.

I have a feeling that SRAM will expand their line from the top down, and
have Xenon-Record breadth. Maybe not quite as many models, but at least
enough to cover their bases.

It

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looks like they'll have two shifters with alloy or carbon levers. Will
the alloy versions be in competition with the now overpriced Ultegra or
with 105? Their rear derailleur appears to be X.0 level and will likely
have a commensurate price. Anyone willing to use an MTB long cage on a
triple could try to find a cheap ESP RD, though. Their 9-speed
cassettes are already overpriced in parity with Shimano.

Huh??? They're far cheaper.

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SRAM has a lot
of room to undercut Shimano on the obscene 10-speed cassette pricing
but I'm sure the big S will drop prices when they get some real
competition there.

Careful there... SRAM may become the big S. One bike maker in particular,
Specialized, has outfitted almost all of their entry and mid-level mountain
bikes and even a bunch of their top-end (S-Works included) mountain bikes
with SRAM products. Although I personally believe that Shimano will make
big pricing reorganizations in response to something like this for next
year, it could be a sign of things to come.

I think that SRAM knows that the OEM market is going to be its biggest
target, because if they can penetrate the OEM market and get their products
out on new bikes, people will have a replacement/upgrade path along SRAM
instead of Shimano or Campy. Aggressive initial pricing will be their
primary goal to woo as many manufacturers as possible, given enough
production capacity.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In article
<[email hidden]>,

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What really gets me is how the 10sp cassettes have no wider range than the
8 or 9. It would be nice to have that 16t cog though...

No need for wider range cassettes with 10 speed. That is what triples
are for. The extra cogs in the usable range is the beauty of 10 speed.
Take the wonderful 10 speed Campagnolo Veloce cassettes for instance.
Veloce are loose cogs and spacers.

13-26 cassette is 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26. You get a 7 cog wide
corn cob where you spend 99% of your riding time plus some lower gears.
And you can easily replace the 26 cog with a 28 cog from QBP or a 28
or 29 cog from a discarded old Veloce 9 or 10 speed cogset. Campagnolo
9 and 10 speed cogs are the same thickness, just the spacers changed.
Then you get 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-29.

12-23 cassette is 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23. You get an 8 cog wide
corn cob in the usable gears plus some sort of lower cogs. Let me
repeat you get 8 consecutive cogs with 1 tooth difference. But you can
also toss out the 23 cog and put on a 26 cog from a discareded 9 or 10
speed Veloce cogset. So you would end up with
12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-26. 26 cog is fairly low.

With 10 speed you no longer have to choose between tightly spaced corn
cob gears and bigger climbing gears. You can have both at the same
time. I currently run a 9 speed Campagnolo cassette with
13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28. The short cage Chorus rear derailleur
easily handles the 5 tooth jump between the last cogs.

What he said! I run a triple chain wheel set and a
13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23. Heaven. It is not that I
change gears a lot, but that I can run the exact gear that
pleases me.

--
Michael Press

Matt O'Toole said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Well, for good or ill, that is the direction that road casettes are a
going and about the limit they will go considering 130mm spacing, hub
design and cog/chain thickness, reliability.

Well they can change all that too if they want. Shimano has tried
smaller chains before, and had working prototypes but never marketed it.
They've shown plans for a 14 speed cassette, also using a smaller
chain.

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If they were to start at 9s they would be viewed as 'inferior' by those
that care about such things.

I thought 7sp was plenty, even for mountain bikes. With 9 and 10 speed
cassettes, I sometimes wonder why have more than one chainring anymore.
What really gets me is how the 10sp cassettes have no wider range than the
8 or 9. It would be nice to have that 16t cog though...

Matt O.

Compact crank and a 11-23 10s....

RonSonic said:

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The top three groups of both Shimano (Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105) and
Campagnolo (Record, Chorus, Centaur) are all 10 speed. In other words,
anything halfway decent that you'd want on your bike is 10 speed.

Sounds like you're a complete sucker for marketing!

Do you _really_ think adding another cog makes you that much faster?
Do you _really_ think anything below the "most the market can bear"
price is junk?

Both ideas are silly.

However true that may be, and I do believe there is a lot of truth to it, if I
were getting in the business of selling parts for road bikes I'd make them ten
speed.

Ron

"I gotta a 10s...2 in the front, 5 in the back, good enough for Eddy,
good enough for me"

Squid-in-Training said:

I think SRAM saw the hole in the future market (low-cost road groups) and
decided to take the plunge, starting with a high end group. They've bought
up so many companies already that it's becoming a decent conglomerate.

Aren't most of the components in the sram road group existing stuff except
with an SRAM label instead of company-they've-bought? ISTR that only the
shifters were truly new.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Squid-in-Training said:

I think SRAM saw the hole in the future market (low-cost road
groups) and decided to take the plunge, starting with a high end
group. They've bought up so many companies already that it's
becoming a decent conglomerate.

Aren't most of the components in the sram road group existing stuff
except with an SRAM label instead of company-they've-bought? ISTR
that only the shifters were truly new.

When I mentioned company-they've-bought, it's larely mountain bike companies
(Avid, Rockshox). Truvativ has quite a few road offerings. But no, a lot
of the components are new. Think about it:

1. 10-speed cassette (all new, but likely a spacer change is all that's
needed)
2. ESP Rear derailleur (mostly new X.O with short cage and angle)
3. 10-speed chain (old; probably no different from the PC-89R)
4. Shifters (whiz-bang new!)
5. Brakeset (whiz-bang new!)
6. Front derailleur (newish; SRAM's never made a double front derailleur)
7. Crankset/BB (old, from Truvativ)

They might get into the following, too:
8. Hubs (new, but they've been doing hubs for a while)
9. Wheels (dunno where they'd source these... Alex, Xero probably)
10. Bars/stems/seatposts (old, Truvativ)

So it looks like there's a brakeset, shifters, rear derailleur, and front
derailleur that completes the "all-new" package. And the chain and cassette
will be newish.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Jasper Janssen said:

Squid-in-Training said:

I think SRAM saw the hole in the future market (low-cost road groups) and
decided to take the plunge, starting with a high end group. They've bought
up so many companies already that it's becoming a decent conglomerate.

Aren't most of the components in the sram road group existing stuff except
with an SRAM label instead of company-they've-bought? ISTR that only the
shifters were truly new.

Jasper

Shifters, rear and front der, brakes are new...Crank is Tryvative.

Squid-in-Training said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Squid-in-Training said:

I think SRAM saw the hole in the future market (low-cost road
groups) and decided to take the plunge, starting with a high end
group. They've bought up so many companies already that it's
becoming a decent conglomerate.

Aren't most of the components in the sram road group existing stuff
except with an SRAM label instead of company-they've-bought? ISTR
that only the shifters were truly new.

When I mentioned company-they've-bought, it's larely mountain bike companies
(Avid, Rockshox). Truvativ has quite a few road offerings. But no, a lot
of the components are new. Think about it:

1. 10-speed cassette (all new, but likely a spacer change is all that's
needed)
2. ESP Rear derailleur (mostly new X.O with short cage and angle)
3. 10-speed chain (old; probably no different from the PC-89R)
5. Brakeset (whiz-bang new!)

Weren't these supposed to be lightly modified Tektros?

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6. Front derailleur (newish; SRAM's never made a double front derailleur)
7. Crankset/BB (old, from Truvativ)
8. Hubs (new, but they've been doing hubs for a while)
10. Bars/stems/seatposts (old, Truvativ)

All of the above are new products, but they're minor adaptations from
existing product *lines*. I mean, changing the angle and cage length of
the derailer may require some new tooling plus some new road testing, but
I very much doubt there's *really* significant engineering there. I mean,
there pretty much can't be, they're not large enough to do all that at
once, and besides, a trusty, proven design is much better for 'em anyway.
They're already taking a huge risk by introducing the shifters and
remarketing everything else, they really don't want to take any chances on
the rest of the group becoming a problem area.

Quoted message said:

9. Wheels (dunno where they'd source these... Alex, Xero probably)
4. Shifters (whiz-bang new!)

So it looks like there's a brakeset, shifters, rear derailleur, and front
derailleur that completes the "all-new" package. And the chain and cassette
will be newish.

I'd still only really classify the shifters as truly new, as in a complete
departure from anything they've ever done before. Brakes I'm not sure
about. But narrower cassettes with an extra cog.. not exactly rocket
science.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Squid-in-Training said:

Jasper Janssen said:

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:38:31 -0500, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> I think SRAM saw the hole in the future market (low-cost road
> groups) and decided to take the plunge, starting with a high end
> group. They've bought up so many companies already that it's
> becoming a decent conglomerate.

Aren't most of the components in the sram road group existing stuff
except with an SRAM label instead of company-they've-bought? ISTR
that only the shifters were truly new.

When I mentioned company-they've-bought, it's larely mountain bike
companies (Avid, Rockshox). Truvativ has quite a few road
offerings. But no, a lot of the components are new. Think about it:

1. 10-speed cassette (all new, but likely a spacer change is all
that's needed)
2. ESP Rear derailleur (mostly new X.O with short cage and angle)
3. 10-speed chain (old; probably no different from the PC-89R)
5. Brakeset (whiz-bang new!)

Weren't these supposed to be lightly modified Tektros?

I've never seen an upper arm split in two like these are:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tech/shows/interbike05/?id=interbike0522/SRAM_road_brake_caliper

Quoted message said:

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6. Front derailleur (newish; SRAM's never made a double front
derailleur)
7. Crankset/BB (old, from Truvativ)
8. Hubs (new, but they've been doing hubs for a while)
10. Bars/stems/seatposts (old, Truvativ)

All of the above are new products, but they're minor adaptations from
existing product *lines*. I mean, changing the angle and cage length
of the derailer may require some new tooling plus some new road
testing, but I very much doubt there's *really* significant
engineering there. I mean, there pretty much can't be, they're not
large enough to do all that at once, and besides, a trusty, proven
design is much better for 'em anyway. They're already taking a huge
risk by introducing the shifters and remarketing everything else,
they really don't want to take any chances on the rest of the group
becoming a problem area.

Agreed. They're adaptations, yes. I was interpreting new as "not having an
identical current model under a different name."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

9. Wheels (dunno where they'd source these... Alex, Xero probably)
4. Shifters (whiz-bang new!)

So it looks like there's a brakeset, shifters, rear derailleur, and
front derailleur that completes the "all-new" package. And the
chain and cassette will be newish.

I'd still only really classify the shifters as truly new, as in a
complete departure from anything they've ever done before. Brakes I'm
not sure about. But narrower cassettes with an extra cog.. not
exactly rocket science.

So they're already done with the hard part and can rock out with low prices
for everyone!

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
--snip--

Quoted message said:

7. Crankset/BB (old, from Truvativ)

--snip--

Actually, the road Crank is new(ish)...Truvativ's top end road crank
(read, carbon) for this year used a nice shiny aluminum spider. The
cranks displayed at the show were full carbon. Granted, the
BB/Bearings are recycled tech.

SYJ

Squid-in-Training said:

I've never seen an upper arm split in two like these are:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tech/shows/interbike05/?id=interbike0522/SRAM_road_brake_caliper

No? Seems like an obvious way to get better stiffness per weight. I wonder
why noone ever tried it before.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Squid-in-Training said:

I've never seen an upper arm split in two like these are:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tech/shows/interbike05/?id=interbike0522/SRAM_road_brake_caliper

No? Seems like an obvious way to get better stiffness per weight. I
wonder why noone ever tried it before.

I thought the exact same *words* when I saw it at first, too. It's
basically a variation of drillium, but in forged fashion.

Maybe there's not enough flex there to warrant that kind of design. I'm
pretty sure that the housing flex is far higher than arm flex. But it looks
nice and might weigh less.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Squid-in-Training said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Squid-in-Training said:

I've never seen an upper arm split in two like these are:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tech/shows/interbike05/?id=interbike0522/SRAM_road_brake_caliper

No? Seems like an obvious way to get better stiffness per weight. I
wonder why noone ever tried it before.

I thought the exact same *words* when I saw it at first, too. It's
basically a variation of drillium, but in forged fashion.

The SRAM design is derived from the Mavic dual-pivot caliper
introduced several years ago:
http://www.mavic.com/e_img/chapitres/visu_produit_acc_freins_ssc.jpg

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com

Phil said:

Careful there... SRAM may become the big S. One bike maker in particular,
Specialized, has outfitted almost all of their entry and mid-level mountain
bikes and even a bunch of their top-end (S-Works included) mountain bikes
with SRAM products.

I just learned this today after talking to the LBS owner who mostly
sells Specialized. He didn't seem too thrilled about it. He mentioned
that SRAM uses a lot of plastic in their shifters and derailleurs, and
it isn't very durable.

Ron Ruff said:

Phil said:

Careful there... SRAM may become the big S. One bike maker in
particular, Specialized, has outfitted almost all of their entry and
mid-level mountain bikes and even a bunch of their top-end (S-Works
included) mountain bikes with SRAM products.

I just learned this today after talking to the LBS owner who mostly
sells Specialized. He didn't seem too thrilled about it. He mentioned
that SRAM uses a lot of plastic in their shifters and derailleurs, and
it isn't very durable.

ah, ah, death to you! -- gianni

Bill "old alt.mountain-bike shtick" S.

Two words:

Fad
Fashion

- -

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

"May you have the winds at your back,
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Phil said:

I've never seen an upper arm split in two like these are:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tech/shows/interbike05/?id=interbike0522/SRAM_road_brake_caliper

I have.
That's a dead knockoff of the mid-70s DuraAce BR-7200 caliper.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

Careful there... SRAM may become the big S. One bike maker in particular,
Specialized, has outfitted almost all of their entry and mid-level mountain
bikes and even a bunch of their top-end (S-Works included) mountain bikes
with SRAM products.

Ron Ruff said:

I just learned this today after talking to the LBS owner who mostly
sells Specialized. He didn't seem too thrilled about it. He mentioned
that SRAM uses a lot of plastic in their shifters and derailleurs, and
it isn't very durable.

Nylon? Really?
Looked at any Shimano changers and contols lately?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Phil said:

Careful there... SRAM may become the big S. One bike maker in particular,
Specialized, has outfitted almost all of their entry and mid-level mountain
bikes and even a bunch of their top-end (S-Works included) mountain bikes
with SRAM products. Although I personally believe that Shimano will make
big pricing reorganizations in response to something like this for next
year, it could be a sign of things to come.

I think that SRAM knows that the OEM market is going to be its biggest
target, because if they can penetrate the OEM market and get their products
out on new bikes, people will have a replacement/upgrade path along SRAM
instead of Shimano or Campy. Aggressive initial pricing will be their
primary goal to woo as many manufacturers as possible, given enough
production capacity.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Doubt shimano will be much unseated. shimano retires more debt each
year than Sram or Campagnolo grosses. OEM is where Sram will be making
a dent. Campagnolo can't spell OEM, and will continue to focus on
bicycles that start as frames, even at some of the big boys like ACG.
ALL this is dependent on how ell the stuff works and how reliable it is
and how well Sram supports it. Some aspects of Sram customer service is
great, some is terrible(RockShox).

In addition, most of the Sram stuff is NOT made in a dedicated Sram
factory, like the brakes which are undoubtedly made by the people that
make Tektro.

I think Sram is going to make an impact but as Brain wrote, 2008 will
really be the first year the stuff is widely available and we'll see if
somebody that buys a Parlee from us will opt for Sram or Campagnolo.