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Light for commuting

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UK and Europe
Published
2 December 2005
Last activity
9 December 2005
Original author
Kinetic
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62
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  1. Quoted message said:

    Well yes a flashing light would be obvious against a background of
    steady lights - but the main reason for the flashing is to give an
    identity to the light for navigation purposes. A driver on a road
    doesn't need to know the identity of the light source - he just needs
    to avoid hitting it.

    The idea is that a driver will take more care for more vulnerable road
    users, so it helps to look different.

    Quoted message said:

    Having done many hours of night sailing I can say that flashing lights
    are often hard to spot and easily lost sight of, compared to a steady
    light. The flash is necessary for identity but is not an aid to
    visibility per se.

    How many times per second do those ones flash? If less than four then
    it's not a fair comparison.

    Quoted message said:

    In a background of flashing lights a steady light would stand out. So
    what - a driver just needs to see a light whatever it is doing , and
    avoid hitting the source.
    The human eye is much more likely to miss flashing lights than steady
    ones, in marginal cicumstances e.g. if it coincides with blinks,
    windscreen wipers or any other interruption. Pretty blindingly obvious
    really that a light which is switched off for whatever period is more
    likely to be overlooked.

    Again that is not an issue when the light is flashing at a good rate.
    It's pretty blindinlgly obvious that a fast-flashing light gets attention,
    just as moving objects are more noticeable than still ones. You should be
    looking in any one direction for longer than a quarter of a second at a
    time, therefore you will see the light when it is "on". The most
    important thing is to get attention in the first place. And just because
    fast is better than slow doesn't mean the faster the better and to the
    point of being continuous. There is an optimum rate.

    ~PB

  2. Quoted message said:

    So if I cut out a hedgehog shape in reflective material and stick it on
    my back does this mean that I am more likely to get run over than if I
    had nothing very visible?

    Twas either last year or the year before that the local schools
    distributed a bunch of reflective stickers shaped like hedgehogs..

    Don't know what it did to the accident rate. It coincided with
    introduction of the 20mph zones next to schools.

    ...d

  3. Simon Brooke said:


    No. A bright yellow top is precisely zero use at night. Without ambient
    ultra-violet fluresents don't flures, and at night there are no
    significant sources of ultra-violet.

    I've got to disagree with you here. Especially around town (where I do
    most of my night riding) a day-glo yellow jacket is significantly more
    visible than any other piece of clothing I own. This makes is useful.

    Some hi-vis detailing would help, but that doesn't make it useless as is.

    As for shape, I think the classic hi-vis "workmans' jacket" actually works
    well for giving a visual clue that a person is there. Drivers are so used
    to it that they recognise it as a person. No need for a skelton shape (which
    is more likely to make people go "eh?" than anything else I feel)

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune

  4. Pete Biggs said:

    There is an optimum rate.

    More than that there are optimum rates. The rate which is optimum in
    peripheral vision (i.e to draw attention of someone who is not looking
    in your direction) is different to the optimum in central vision (i.e.
    when they are looking at you). Lights which are therefore good at
    getting you spotted are therefore not very impressive when you look at
    them directly when assessing which one to buy. A little knowledge of
    vision science is therefore a great help in choosing.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  5. Pete Biggs said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
    definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible.

    That's not a problem when they flash fast quickly. The flashing effect
    makes them *more noticeable* than a steady light of at least similar
    brightness, and also *different* from other types of vehicles that use
    steady lights.

    We find that the flashing LED vest / waistcoasts in fluorescent yellow
    are quite effective at getting noticed by drivers.
    http://www.beseenonabike.com/shopuk/index.php?cPath=1_27_31

    12 LED and 6 LED versions are available.

    Does anyone know who makes a fluorescent pink flashing LED jacket?

    Chris Street
    www.BeSeenOnABike.com

  6. Tony Raven said:
    Pete Biggs said:

    There is an optimum rate.

    More than that there are optimum rates. The rate which is optimum in
    peripheral vision (i.e to draw attention of someone who is not looking
    in your direction) is different to the optimum in central vision (i.e.
    when they are looking at you). Lights which are therefore good at
    getting you spotted are therefore not very impressive when you look at
    them directly when assessing which one to buy. A little knowledge of
    vision science is therefore a great help in choosing.

    Lesson 101: It doesn't matter what you are wearing if you are not where
    people are looking.
    I don't think there is a huge difference in visibility between an
    ordinary well lit bicycle and the chap who rides past my house with
    flashing lights all over him. If you have been seen, then you have been
    seen. If you are where drivers are looking and are visible, then you
    will be seen.

    Risk compensation may be working to our benefit here. If you think you
    are more visible then you may ride further out from the kerb, placing
    yourself where drivers are looking.

    ...d

  7. in message <[email hidden]>,

    (') said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>,

    (') said:

    If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
    single most important thing - and probably more significant for
    safety than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

    No. A bright yellow top is precisely zero use at night. Without
    ambient ultra-violet fluresents don't flures, and at night there are
    no significant sources of ultra-violet.

    Nonsense - bright yellow tops really stand out if you catch one in your
    headlights.

    Your funeral, not mine.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ;; This email may contain confidential or otherwise privileged
    ;; information, though, quite frankly, if you're not the intended
    ;; recipient and you've got nothing better to do than read other
    ;; folks' emails then I'm glad to have brightened up your sad little
    ;; life a tiny bit.

  8. "crabsallover" <[email hidden]> of http://groups.google.com

    Quoted message said:

    We find that the flashing LED vest / waistcoasts in fluorescent yellow
    are quite effective at getting noticed by drivers.
    http://www.beseenonabike.com/shopuk/index.php?cPath=1_27_31

    12 LED and 6 LED versions are available.

    Saw someone wearing the over the shoulders plus belt flashing arrangement
    last week. Impressive close up, but as he cycled furiously into the
    distance after overtaking me I found that in the distance it was a very
    peculiar effect which didn't really say cyclist or even person. Might work
    to get some space just because it isn't recognisable.
    --
    Those who are mentally and emotionally healthy are those who have learned
    when to say yes, when to say no and when to say whoopee. W.S. Krabill
    Steph Peters delete invalid from [email hidden]
    Tatting, lace & stitching page <http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/index.htm>

  9. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    You aren't going to get that. The motor car has a tens of horsepower
    engine continually maintaining the charge in a tens of amp-hour battery
    weighing tens of kilogrammes. You don't have that engine, and you don't
    have the carrying capacity for that battery, so you can't drive a light
    of that intensity for any length of time - even very expensive
    technology such as HID lamps and lithium ion batteries will only give
    you 'the equivalent of 40 watts' when standard car headlamps are 55
    watts and more and more upmarket cars are already using similar high
    brightness technologies.

    Things move on swiftly, the Lupine Edison 10 manages the equivalent of 65w
    with a claimed run time of 6 hours at that rating and is only 650 quid!

    http://www.zyro.co.uk/lupine/products.asp?code=LUED10
    --
    Pete
    http:[email hidden]/Stuff

  10. David Martin said:


    Lesson 101: It doesn't matter what you are wearing if you are not where
    people are looking.

    Is the wrong answer. Human vision has evolved so that there is a very
    small field of view that is good at interpreting visual information on
    things you are looking at. Stare at the edge of a TV screen and try and
    identify the face of the newsreader to see just how small it is.
    However it is surrounded by a very large field visual system that is
    good at identifying where the brain should swivel the eye to look.
    Flashing lights are very good at getting the attention of that wide
    field system and the flashing parameters to get noticed are different
    from those that appear effective when looking directly at the source.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  11. David Martin said:


    Lesson 101: It doesn't matter what you are wearing if you are not where
    people are looking.

    Is the wrong answer. Human vision has evolved so that there is a very
    small field of view that is good at interpreting visual information on
    things you are looking at. Stare at the edge of a TV screen and try and
    identify the face of the newsreader to see just how small it is.
    However it is surrounded by a very large field visual system that is
    good at identifying where the brain should swivel the eye to look.
    Flashing lights are very good at getting the attention of that wide
    field system and the flashing parameters to get noticed are different
    from those that appear effective when looking directly at the source.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  12. In article said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    technology such as HID lamps and lithium ion batteries will only give
    you 'the equivalent of 40 watts' when standard car headlamps are 55
    watts and more and more upmarket cars are already using similar high
    brightness technologies.

    Things move on swiftly, the Lupine Edison 10 manages the equivalent of 65w
    with a claimed run time of 6 hours at that rating and is only 650 quid!
    http://www.zyro.co.uk/lupine/products.asp?code=LUED10

    The Cateye Stadium uses (or possibly used - I can't find anyone who
    stocks it with a quick look) a 20W HID bulb rather than the more
    common 10W one, and claim "80+W" equivalent. (Lupine is "16W/10W" HID.)
    http://cyclexpress.co.uk/products/Cateye_HLMHStadium_533.asp
    £262.50 (but out of stock)

    But, while the claimed power equivalents aren't as bad as cheap
    music amplifiers (would you believe 400W "peak music power" - from
    AA batteries?), marketing departments can sometimes be optimistic.

    Alternatively, for £650, you could buy a car, tax and insure it and
    pay for petrol to follow you around with its lights on for a fair while.

  13. Tony Raven said:

    David Martin wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Lesson 101: It doesn't matter what you are wearing if you are not where
    people are looking.

    Quoted message said:

    Is the wrong answer. Human vision has evolved so that there is a very
    small field of view that is good at interpreting visual information on
    things you are looking at. Stare at the edge of a TV screen and try and
    identify the face of the newsreader to see just how small it is. However
    it is surrounded by a very large field visual system that is good at
    identifying where the brain should swivel the eye to look. Flashing
    lights are very good at getting the attention of that wide field system
    and the flashing parameters to get noticed are different from those that
    appear effective when looking directly at the source.

    I think perhaps David's original point may be more on the lines of if
    Joe Punter looks left and you're coming from the right, and they don't
    look right and pull out, you can have the primary strobes from Madonna's
    stage show on board and they still won't help...

    Last prangtje[1] I had was one of those, fortunately all low speed and
    nothing hurt and I think the old dear was far more upset than I was.
    Part of the reason no harm was done was I saw her not looking and
    consequently took a degree of avoidance action.

    Pete.

    [1] like a prangette, but I'm practising my Dutch
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  14. Peter Clinch said:


    I think perhaps David's original point may be more on the lines of if
    Joe Punter looks left and you're coming from the right, and they don't
    look right and pull out, you can have the primary strobes from Madonna's
    stage show on board and they still won't help...

    And my point was the with suitably flashing and moving lights you should
    catch their attention in their peripheral vision even if they are not
    looking at you. Looking left maybe not but looking ahead they should
    certainly notice you coming from the right with the right lights.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  15. Tony Raven said:
    Peter Clinch said:


    I think perhaps David's original point may be more on the lines of if
    Joe Punter looks left and you're coming from the right, and they don't
    look right and pull out, you can have the primary strobes from Madonna's
    stage show on board and they still won't help...

    And my point was the with suitably flashing and moving lights you should
    catch their attention in their peripheral vision even if they are not
    looking at you. Looking left maybe not but looking ahead they should
    certainly notice you coming from the right with the right lights.

    --
    Tony


    And my point was that flashing and moving lights may well attract
    attention but may cause confusion in the observer if there are other
    distractions around, compared to a steady light (preferably also
    large). If a light is off for any visible period then it risks being
    unseen. If it is moving and flashing it could cause confusion with
    respect to it's position - the greater the speed (or relative change of
    position) then the longer distance (actual or angular) being travelled
    with the light "off".
    I've been carefully observing cyclists as I drive around latterly and
    the most visible rear light seems to be the old style Ever Ready with 2
    x U2 batteries and large lens - much better than most of the little
    flickering LEDs which are so popular, and clearly visible through 180
    degrees. Unfortunately also heavy (ish) with short battery life and
    [censored] design and fittings.

    cheers
    Jacob

  16. Quoted message said:

    I've been carefully observing cyclists as I drive around latterly and
    the most visible rear light seems to be the old style Ever Ready with 2
    x U2 batteries and large lens - much better than most of the little
    flickering LEDs which are so popular, and clearly visible through 180
    degrees.

    I have also noticed this, on a number of occasions. They're
    particularly good from a distance.

    Brendan
    --
    Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
    Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
    [email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

  17. in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins

    (') said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Peter B

    Quoted message said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    technology such as HID lamps and lithium ion batteries will only give
    you 'the equivalent of 40 watts' when standard car headlamps are 55
    watts and more and more upmarket cars are already using similar high
    brightness technologies.

    Things move on swiftly, the Lupine Edison 10 manages the equivalent of
    65w
    with a claimed run time of 6 hours at that rating and is only 650
    quid! http://www.zyro.co.uk/lupine/products.asp?code=LUED10

    The Cateye Stadium uses (or possibly used - I can't find anyone who
    stocks it with a quick look) a 20W HID bulb rather than the more
    common 10W one, and claim "80+W" equivalent. (Lupine is "16W/10W" HID.)
    http://cyclexpress.co.uk/products/Cateye_HLMHStadium_533.asp
    £262.50 (but out of stock)

    Yup, but what does '80W equivalent' actually mean, and what is the
    'wattage equivalence' of one of those blueish headlights fitted to
    (e.g.) current BMW models? They may only be 55 watts, but they're a heck
    of a lot brighter than the 55 watt headlights on my old vauxhall.

    I say again: this arms race benefits nobody, and a light for a light
    leaves everybody blind. If the oncoming driver is so dazzled by your
    lights he can't see, you haven't improved your safety one little bit.
    What we need, certainly in urban areas and I would argue in rural ones
    too, is a strict legal limit on the maximum amount of light which can be
    shown by any vehicle (and the maximum intensity, which may be
    different); and that limit should be considerably /lower/ than current
    values.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    <p>Schroedinger's cat is <blink><strong>NOT</strong></blink> dead.</p>

  18. In article said:


    Yup, but what does '80W equivalent' actually mean, and what is the
    'wattage equivalence' of one of those blueish headlights fitted to
    (e.g.) current BMW models? They may only be 55 watts, but they're a heck
    of a lot brighter than the 55 watt headlights on my old vauxhall.

    The HID lights I think are less than 55W but more than 55W "equivalent",
    but I'm not sure. The "blue tint to pretend I've got HID" bulbs are
    standard 55W (and can give an impression of greater brightness because
    we associate higher colour temperature with brightness, and possibly
    because the glare is worse for the same power (the opposite of French
    yellow headlight intentions)).

    Quoted message said:

    What we need, certainly in urban areas and I would argue in rural ones
    too, is a strict legal limit on the maximum amount of light which can be
    shown by any vehicle (and the maximum intensity, which may be
    different); and that limit should be considerably /lower/ than current
    values.

    I'd support that. There was the attempt to introduce "dim-dip" headlights
    for urban use, but I gather European harmonization put an end to that
    (along with yellow headlight filters when visiting France).

    I'd like to see powerful bike lights with a beam shaped like dipped car
    headlights too, for on road use. (By "powerful", I mean "more than the
    3W of dynamo systems which generally do have a carefully shaped beam",
    not powerful compared with car headlights.)

  19. "Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Simon Brooke


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What we need, certainly in urban areas and I would argue in rural ones
    too, is a strict legal limit on the maximum amount of light which can be
    shown by any vehicle (and the maximum intensity, which may be
    different); and that limit should be considerably /lower/ than current
    values.

    Yes, I've heard the opinion expressed that HID car headlights have a very
    sharp cut-off when dipped. This raises the problem of driving at high speed
    on main beam which is then dipped in the face of on-coming traffic rendering
    the driver near blind, exacerbated by the oncoming lights.
    I had this experience when younger after fitting "driving lamps" to the
    front of my car which were relayed into the main beam circuit, great on full
    beam but when dipped...
    Of course, now being older and wiser (well certainly older) I drive on full
    beam at a speed that is less problematical when having to dip ;-)

    Quoted message said:


    There was the attempt to introduce "dim-dip" headlights
    for urban use, but I gather European harmonization put an end to that
    (along with yellow headlight filters when visiting France).

    My late Mondieu had those, an ideal solution for urban driving IMO.

    --
    Pete
    http:[email hidden]/Stuff

  20. from:
    http://www.beseenonabike.com/bsoab/beseenonabike_info_cyclist_perception.htm

    To avoid an accident between a cyclist and a motorist the motorist must
    first notice the cyclist. What makes cyclists get noticed by motorists?
    Provided the driver is looking at the road ahead then surely the
    cyclist will be noticed? Not necessarily! BeSeenOnABike claim that
    drivers can suffer from two types of blindness: Inattentional Blindness
    and Change Blindness.

    Why is fluorescent clothing recommened when riding a bicycle during the
    day? Why not wear bright clothes (white or yellow). Why wear bright
    clothes at all - whats wrong with black clothes whilst cycling?

    The strange phenomenum of Inattentional Blindness suggests that we may
    not see something at all unless we are paying attention to it.
    (Blackmore, 2005). Psychologists Arien Mack & Irvin Rock held subjects
    attention by asking them to watch a fixation spot and, when a cross
    briefly appeared, to decide whether the vertical arm was longer than
    the horizontal arm. When a highly visible object unexpectantly flashed
    close to the cross, most subjects failed to see it. Even more
    surprising was that when they had to attend to a cross slightly to one
    side of where they were looking, they failed to see the object flashed
    right in front of their eyes. It seems that paying attention to one
    side makes you blind where you are looking. Mack and Rock conclude that
    there can be no conscious perception without attention.

    In these studies, observers monitored one event while simultaneosly
    ignoring another similar event. Observers monitored one team of players
    passing a basketball while ignoring another team also passing a ball.
    The observers were asked to count the number of times that the team
    that was being monitored passed the ball. An Unexpected Event occurred.
    For example, a woman carrying an open umbrella might walk across the
    court. As in Mack & Rock's studies, observers often failed to see the
    Unexpected Event.

    View the movie.
    http://viscog.beckman.uiuc.edu/grafs/demos/20.html

    These studies demonstrate that attention is directed to objects and
    events rather than spatial locations - the attended event was literally
    superimposed on the unattended event, yet observers still did not see
    the Unexpected Event.

    BeSeenOnABike claim that in some accidents involving cyclists being hit
    by motorists, the cyclist is the Unexpected Event. Because the motorist
    suffers from Inattentional Blindness the motorist never sees the
    cyclist! A cyclist wearing normal dark clothes may be not be visible to
    a motorist (the cyclist is an Unexpected Event). By wearing bright
    fluorescent clothing or other fluorescent gadgets rather than dark
    clothes, the motorist attends to the cyclist - and sees him! Maybe a
    fluorescent smiley could actually save lives!

    What's the Difference between Looking and Seeing?
    A large fraction of traffic accidents are of the type "driver looked
    but failed to see". Here, drivers collide with pedestrians or cyclists
    in plain view, with cars directly in front of them (the classic
    "rear-ender"😉, and even run into trains. That's right - run into
    trains, not the other way around!

    In such cases, information from the world is entering the driver's
    eyes. But at some point along the way this information is lost, causing
    the driver to lose connection with reality. They are looking but they
    are not seeing.

    What's going on? Our findings indicate that the critical factor is
    attention: To see an object change, it is necessary to attend to it.

    To show this, Ronald Rensink developed a flicker paradigm in which an
    original and a modified image continually alternate, one after the
    other, with a brief blank field between the two. The onset of each
    blank field swamps the local motion signals caused by a change,
    short-circuiting the automatic system that normally draws attention to
    its location. Without automatic control, attention is controlled
    entirely by slower, higher-level mechanisms which search the scene,
    object by object, until attention lands upon the object that is
    changing. The change blindness induced under these conditions is a form
    of invisibility: it can become very difficult to see a change that is
    obvious once attended.

    To see this effect for yourself, try out the following Change Blindness
    examples.

    BeSeenOnABike claim that in some accidents involving cyclists being hit
    by motorists, the motorist suffers from Change Blindness. The motorist
    never sees the cyclist! Maybe a cyclist wearing a fluorescent jacket
    could actually saving their life by making the motorist attend to the
    jacket and thus see the cyclist!

    References

    Inattentional Blindness (page 62) in Consciousness: A Very Short
    Introduction by Susan Blackmore, Pub: Oxford University Press, 2005

    Inattentional Blindness An Overview By Arien Mack & Irvin Rock

    Overview of Inattentional Blindness (Visual Cognition lab)

    Visual Cognition Lab demos

    Tony Raven said:
    David Martin said:


    Lesson 101: It doesn't matter what you are wearing if you are not where
    people are looking.

    Is the wrong answer. Human vision has evolved so that there is a very
    small field of view that is good at interpreting visual information on
    things you are looking at. Stare at the edge of a TV screen and try and
    identify the face of the newsreader to see just how small it is.
    However it is surrounded by a very large field visual system that is
    good at identifying where the brain should swivel the eye to look.
    Flashing lights are very good at getting the attention of that wide
    field system and the flashing parameters to get noticed are different
    from those that appear effective when looking directly at the source.

    --
    Tony

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