Why truck are dangerous.

Resound said:

I had a thought tonight as I was riding home along Dynon Road. A truck went
past and I sort of flinched a little although he wasn't that close (I think
the rain makes them a bit more intimidating). It occured to me that there
have been a few incidents over the past year of cyclists being killed by a
truck going in the same direction. This implies that they were hit from
behind or that the truck pulled into them after passing. It also occured to
me that although trucks pretty much invariably give me plenty of room as the
front of the truck goes by, it gets awfully tight as the back of the truck
goes by. It's not an absolute length thing though, it seems to be a
percentage of truck length. The back wheels of single trailers get close,
but not the back wheels of the first trailer on a B-double. The back wheels
of the SECOND trailer on a B-double often get a bit scary though.

So...hypothesis:

Truck drivers, like motorists, don't really realise how fast a reasonably
fit cyclist travels on flat ground.

Truck drivers therefore go around cyclists in the same way that they would a
stationary object. Cars probably do as well, but they're short enough that
it doesn't matter as much.

Therefore a truck going past a cyclist while the truck's travelling at
55-60kph and the cyclist is travelling at 30-35kph is passing at less than
half the relative speed that they think they are.

Ergo, they pull back over when they're only halfway past. If they get close
to the gutter, the cyclist winds up in the gutter or under the back wheels.

So...does this tally with what other people have experienced?

Data point :

Yesterday, evening (6pm?) riding up Riversdale Rd in Burwood or Kew or
somewhere ... white truck pulls past, plenty of room, but pulls back
into my space, and I have to brake *hard* to avoid being hit. So yes,
my recent experience is consistant with your theory.

Resound said:

...........trucks pretty much invariably give me plenty of room as the front of the truck goes by, it gets awfully tight as the back of the truck goes by. It's not an absolute length thing though, it seems to be a
percentage of truck length. The back wheels of single trailers get close,
but not the back wheels of the first trailer on a B-double. The back wheels
of the SECOND trailer on a B-double often get a bit scary though.
?

ha!! I've also noticed this. Good theory

One night I found my new maximum heart rate (204) after this happened because I tried to chase the guy to kill him. 🙂

I once had a gun pulled on me in the street by a shopkeeper who thought I'd broken into his shop (I was wandering around at 2am looking for an ATM), and having a truck miss your right butt cheek by what seems like a few inches is just as frightening.

Resound said:

I had a thought tonight as I was riding home along Dynon Road. A truck went
past and I sort of flinched a little although he wasn't that close (I think
the rain makes them a bit more intimidating). It occured to me that there
have been a few incidents over the past year of cyclists being killed by a
truck going in the same direction. This implies that they were hit from
behind or that the truck pulled into them after passing. It also occured to
me that although trucks pretty much invariably give me plenty of room as the
front of the truck goes by, it gets awfully tight as the back of the truck
goes by. It's not an absolute length thing though, it seems to be a
percentage of truck length. The back wheels of single trailers get close,
but not the back wheels of the first trailer on a B-double. The back wheels
of the SECOND trailer on a B-double often get a bit scary though.

So...hypothesis:

Truck drivers, like motorists, don't really realise how fast a reasonably
fit cyclist travels on flat ground.

Truck drivers therefore go around cyclists in the same way that they would a
stationary object. Cars probably do as well, but they're short enough that
it doesn't matter as much.

Therefore a truck going past a cyclist while the truck's travelling at
55-60kph and the cyclist is travelling at 30-35kph is passing at less than
half the relative speed that they think they are.

Ergo, they pull back over when they're only halfway past. If they get close
to the gutter, the cyclist winds up in the gutter or under the back wheels.

So...does this tally with what other people have experienced?

Hell yes it does. Only I notice it with larger cars, too. Most drivers
do it. My personal rule is that I don't pull back in front of anyone
until I can see them in my mirror (or dropping out of view from my
mirror, and of course I check the blind spot as well) but some drivers
seem to only see as far as the far left of the windscreen.

And what is my recommendation? Seeing as no one seems to want driver
education, all I can suggest is that you become extremely competent at
kerb-jumping, and where there is railing or so on, you sit out really
wide in the lane so you've got room to come across as well.

Ain't life grand? Last night was my closest call yet. The only thing
that saved me was the paranoia I experienced as a result of 3 friends
contacting me out of the blue to wish me a safe ride home (including one
friend who is out bush on an army exercise and I haven't spoken to him
for months).

A guy in a conformadore pulled out of the centre at about 30-35 km/h
without even looking right. I was watching him. He did not at all check
for oncoming traffic, he looked left and pulled out. As soon as I saw
him approaching at speed and not looking, I started braking HARD and
veering into the right hand lane. (My paranoia had inspired me to check
both lanes just a few seconds before. I had also practised some hard
braking when lights turned amber a few metres in front of 45km/h-Tam;
actually it's an impressively short distance!)

Now if I'd been in a 4WD with a bullbar, doing the speed limit or 10km
over like most people do along that stretch, I would have hit directly
into his door, and he would be dead. Similarly with the small d!cked
men who, 10 minutes later, u-turned across my front, so that I had to
brake as hard as I could. (A good point of this exercise was that I
know how hard I can brake in an emergency.)

As an aside... I was thinking about the bike registering licencing etc
etc debate... and thought, dang it all, I'd be okay with getting a bike
licence if it became a prerequisite for a drivers licence (with obvious
exceptions for disabled people with modified cars etc). And all current
drivers would need to pass their cycle test before renewing their
licence. Then all drivers would know what it's like to be that
vulnerable.

Tam

Resound said:

I had a thought tonight as I was riding home along Dynon Road. A truck went
past and I sort of flinched a little although he wasn't that close (I think
the rain makes them a bit more intimidating). It occured to me that there
have been a few incidents over the past year of cyclists being killed by a
truck going in the same direction. This implies that they were hit from
behind or that the truck pulled into them after passing. It also occured to
me that although trucks pretty much invariably give me plenty of room as the
front of the truck goes by, it gets awfully tight as the back of the truck
goes by. It's not an absolute length thing though, it seems to be a
percentage of truck length. The back wheels of single trailers get close,
but not the back wheels of the first trailer on a B-double. The back wheels
of the SECOND trailer on a B-double often get a bit scary though.

So...hypothesis:

Truck drivers, like motorists, don't really realise how fast a reasonably
fit cyclist travels on flat ground.

Truck drivers therefore go around cyclists in the same way that they would a
stationary object. Cars probably do as well, but they're short enough that
it doesn't matter as much.

Therefore a truck going past a cyclist while the truck's travelling at
55-60kph and the cyclist is travelling at 30-35kph is passing at less than
half the relative speed that they think they are.

Ergo, they pull back over when they're only halfway past. If they get close
to the gutter, the cyclist winds up in the gutter or under the back wheels.

So...does this tally with what other people have experienced?

fully agree. I always smile wryly to myself when drivers check their rear view mirror to see if you are still there after they have passed (ie did I hit that cyclist? Nup - they are still upright & moving). I figure if they need to check the mirror to see if you are still there, then they KNOW they were too close - so why not just do the job properly and hit you outright? or drive properly and know that they have missed you without having to do the rear view mirror check?????

Apart from the bridge over Nth Melb station Dynon Rd has heaps of room to push out for a bike lane on each side. I used to use that route into town before Footscray rd /Docklands became half-way bike friendly in the mid ‘90s.

Most trucks have their trays or truck bodies made to the max allowable width for more carrying capacity, but it means that some ‘tighter laned’ roads trucks are running over the line or scraping up against road furniture.
Most truck drivers are very professional but I suppose spending all day (everyday) in traffic they sometimes might slide into the taxi-drivers frame of mind [where they might get alittle sloppy – no indicating, lane drifting, sloppy turning etc..]

Marx SS said:

Most truck drivers are very professional but I suppose spending all day
(everyday) in traffic they sometimes might slide into the taxi-drivers
frame of mind [where they might get alittle sloppy - no indicating,
lane drifting, sloppy turning etc..]

I like this use of the word "might". It's like the dentist's
"uncomfortable" 🙂

"Marx SS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Apart from the bridge over Nth Melb station Dynon Rd has heaps of room
to push out for a bike lane on each side. I used to use that route into
town before Footscray rd /Docklands became half-way bike friendly in the
mid '90s.

Most trucks have their trays or truck bodies made to the max allowable
width for more carrying capacity, but it means that some 'tighter
laned' roads trucks are running over the line or scraping up against
road furniture.
Most truck drivers are very professional but I suppose spending all day
(everyday) in traffic they sometimes might slide into the taxi-drivers
frame of mind [where they might get alittle sloppy - no indicating,
lane drifting, sloppy turning etc..]

I don't think that in most cases it's even laziness or sloppiness. They
simply don't realise that bikes can be going faster than 30kph on level
ground. I suspect that a single point driver education campaign would work
for something like this. Don't attach blame, don't point fingers, just point
out how fast bikes move and that they need to overtaken as vehicles, not
stationary obstacles.

On 07/12/05 at 08:39:45 Tamyka Bell somehow managed to type:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

As an aside... I was thinking about the bike registering licencing etc
etc debate... and thought, dang it all, I'd be okay with getting a
bike licence if it became a prerequisite for a drivers licence (with
obvious exceptions for disabled people with modified cars etc). And
all current drivers would need to pass their cycle test before
renewing their licence. Then all drivers would know what it's like to
be that vulnerable.

I dunno what anyone else thinks but I reckon that's the best idea I've
seen here. Ever.

Nice one Tam...

--
Humbug
BE A LOOF! (There has been a recent population explosion of lerts.)

"Resound" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had a thought tonight as I was riding home along Dynon Road. A truck went
past and I sort of flinched a little although he wasn't that close (I think
the rain makes them a bit more intimidating). It occured to me that there
have been a few incidents over the past year of cyclists being killed by a
truck going in the same direction. This implies that they were hit from
behind or that the truck pulled into them after passing. It also occured to
me that although trucks pretty much invariably give me plenty of room as
the front of the truck goes by, it gets awfully tight as the back of the
truck goes by. It's not an absolute length thing though, it seems to be a
percentage of truck length. The back wheels of single trailers get close,
but not the back wheels of the first trailer on a B-double. The back wheels
of the SECOND trailer on a B-double often get a bit scary though.

So...hypothesis:

Truck drivers, like motorists, don't really realise how fast a reasonably
fit cyclist travels on flat ground.

Truck drivers therefore go around cyclists in the same way that they would
a stationary object. Cars probably do as well, but they're short enough
that it doesn't matter as much.

Therefore a truck going past a cyclist while the truck's travelling at
55-60kph and the cyclist is travelling at 30-35kph is passing at less than
half the relative speed that they think they are.

Ergo, they pull back over when they're only halfway past. If they get
close to the gutter, the cyclist winds up in the gutter or under the back
wheels.

So...does this tally with what other people have experienced?

The trucks that scare me the most are those rigid tippers with the dog/ pig
trailers as I reckon those drivers are ex-linehaul from the sesame street
highway(the hume) and have little regard for anyone especially cyclists. In
the metro and regional town areas where there is lots of road construction
going on, if the speed limit is 60kph they'll be doing at least 80, and if
you get hooked by the trailer, you are definately DEAD!!
When i was riding in the NSW BIG RIDE earlier this year, we were just riding
out of this town (forgot which one, there were many) and i was riding behind
this other lady luckily single file having a chat as we rode, and next thing
i know there was a tipper and trailer going past us at approx 80-90kph in a
70 zone, he took the bend wide (a slight right hander) and the sway of the
trailer missing me and the lady by only a foot. This was just too bloody
close and he was going so quick there was no way i could get his number
plate so i couldn't prove to the cops that were with the ride which one it
was but I definately seen my life flash past me that day so every time i
hear one of those buggers now, I just stop and let him go.

I used to be a truck driver myself before going over to buses and I know for
a fact that some of those cowboys should be locked up. Even driving a 6
tonne truck, I was constantly harrassed by the big semis/tippers etc., so a
cyclist has little to no chance.
I must say that there are many good professional truckies out there on the
roads but there are many mongrels as well!!

Quoted message said:

There were a few [censored] motorists that drove too fast beside a large
group of cyclists on that big ride and were booked accordingly. They
didn't realise there were 5 police bikes and 2 hwy patrol cars with the
whole ride at all times. Sometimes it's good to witness justice being
served!!

Cheers

DJ

Quoted message said:

So turn this into a research hypothesis for BV to take to the Institute for
Transport Studies at Monash?

"Resound" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had a thought tonight as I was riding home along Dynon Road. A truck went
past and I sort of flinched a little although he wasn't that close (I think
the rain makes them a bit more intimidating). It occured to me that there
have been a few incidents over the past year of cyclists being killed by a
truck going in the same direction. This implies that they were hit from
behind or that the truck pulled into them after passing. It also occured to
me that although trucks pretty much invariably give me plenty of room as
the front of the truck goes by, it gets awfully tight as the back of the
truck goes by. It's not an absolute length thing though, it seems to be a
percentage of truck length. The back wheels of single trailers get close,
but not the back wheels of the first trailer on a B-double. The back wheels
of the SECOND trailer on a B-double often get a bit scary though.

So...hypothesis:

Truck drivers, like motorists, don't really realise how fast a reasonably
fit cyclist travels on flat ground.

Truck drivers therefore go around cyclists in the same way that they would
a stationary object. Cars probably do as well, but they're short enough
that it doesn't matter as much.

Therefore a truck going past a cyclist while the truck's travelling at
55-60kph and the cyclist is travelling at 30-35kph is passing at less than
half the relative speed that they think they are.

Ergo, they pull back over when they're only halfway past. If they get
close to the gutter, the cyclist winds up in the gutter or under the back
wheels.

So...does this tally with what other people have experienced?

Resound said:

I had a thought tonight as I was riding home along Dynon Road. A truck went
past and I sort of flinched a little although he wasn't that close (I think
the rain makes them a bit more intimidating). It occured to me that there
have been a few incidents over the past year of cyclists being killed by a
truck going in the same direction. This implies that they were hit from
behind or that the truck pulled into them after passing. It also occured to
me that although trucks pretty much invariably give me plenty of room as the
front of the truck goes by, it gets awfully tight as the back of the truck
goes by. It's not an absolute length thing though, it seems to be a
percentage of truck length. The back wheels of single trailers get close,
but not the back wheels of the first trailer on a B-double. The back wheels
of the SECOND trailer on a B-double often get a bit scary though.

There would be no problem if the truck drivers awaited a signal that it is
safe to pull left (right) again. In Europe it is common for car drivers
to flash a truck when it is safe for the truck to pull back, and I have
found on the bike that an unmistakeable nod in the direction of the
truck's rear-view mirror has the same effect, but only for those
considerate truck drivers who stay out until they receive the signal.
I think some truck-driver education might be called for.
Also a realisation by smaller, lighter road users that trucks are heavy
and therefore not as manoeuvrable, and simply cannot brake hard or avoid
things the way smaller road users can.

Peter

--
No Microsoft involved. Certified virus free --

jim said:

So turn this into a research hypothesis for BV to take to the Institute for
Transport Studies at Monash?

I'd be happy to. I've not got any experience with doing that sort of study in any rigourous fashion though. If people have ideas on the best way to go about it I'd be more than happy to take it on board and then do the leg work for it; probably starting in the new year.

jim said:

So turn this into a research hypothesis for BV to take to the Institute for
Transport Studies at Monash?

I'm pretty sure I saw an article about this by Alan Parker a few years
back. He reckons that in Europe large trucks have to have a barrier
between the front and rear wheels of the trailer to protect cyclists.
Aparantly the Australian authorities ignored the call for them to be
compulsory on our trucks.

--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

Bleve said:

Data point :

Yesterday, evening (6pm?) riding up Riversdale Rd in Burwood or Kew or
somewhere ... white truck pulls past, plenty of room, but pulls back
into my space, and I have to brake *hard* to avoid being hit. So yes,
my recent experience is consistant with your theory.

this is "the" reason i put brakes on my fixie. yesterday arvo i had need
for them. had the rear wheel a good foot off the deck avoiding a
conformadore turing left in front of me.

kim
~ changed to a lever with more..um..more leverage

Resound said:

"Marx SS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Apart from the bridge over Nth Melb station Dynon Rd has heaps of room
to push out for a bike lane on each side. I used to use that route into
town before Footscray rd /Docklands became half-way bike friendly in the
mid '90s.

Most trucks have their trays or truck bodies made to the max allowable
width for more carrying capacity, but it means that some 'tighter
laned' roads trucks are running over the line or scraping up against
road furniture.
Most truck drivers are very professional but I suppose spending all day
(everyday) in traffic they sometimes might slide into the taxi-drivers
frame of mind [where they might get alittle sloppy - no indicating,
lane drifting, sloppy turning etc..]

I don't think that in most cases it's even laziness or sloppiness. They
simply don't realise that bikes can be going faster than 30kph on level
ground. I suspect that a single point driver education campaign would work
for something like this. Don't attach blame, don't point fingers, just point
out how fast bikes move and that they need to overtaken as vehicles, not
stationary obstacles.

Yeah got to agree with that

Dave

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:39:45 +1000, Tamyka Bell <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Resound said:

So...hypothesis:

It's not a hypothesis, it's a fact.

Quoted message said:

Tam wrote:
As an aside... I was thinking about the bike registering licencing etc
etc debate... and thought, dang it all, I'd be okay with getting a bike
licence if it became a prerequisite for a drivers licence (with obvious
exceptions for disabled people with modified cars etc). And all current
drivers would need to pass their cycle test before renewing their
licence. Then all drivers would know what it's like to be that
vulnerable.

Motorcyclists have been suggesting a similar thing for years - make
everyone get a motorcycle license before they can get a car license.
Not only will drivers have more of a clue, plenty of them will fail
and not be allowed on the roads. Which is why it will never happen 🙁

17. Peter Keller said:

There would be no problem if the truck drivers awaited a signal that it is safe to pull left (right) again

....and if they don't get one, wait until they can see that the bike or
other vehicle is clearly behind them in the rear-view mirror.

One poster thought that education was out of the question. But this is
silly! Whenever a problem like this surfaces, cyclists should
campaign for the issue to be addressed by education, and, if necessary,
appropriate changes made to the drivers handbook.

Dorre

Dorre said:

17. Peter Keller said:

There would be no problem if the truck drivers awaited a signal that it is safe to pull left (right) again

...and if they don't get one, wait until they can see that the bike or
other vehicle is clearly behind them in the rear-view mirror.

One poster thought that education was out of the question. But this is
silly! Whenever a problem like this surfaces, cyclists should
campaign for the issue to be addressed by education, and, if necessary,
appropriate changes made to the drivers handbook.

Dorre

That was me! But it's not that I think it's out of the question... I
just think that most drivers out there don't realise how appallingly
they drive. My instructor was great - but still I improved as a driver
after (1) defensive driving course and (2) becoming a cyclist. I saw
the results of other instructors, people who barely passed tests... if
people aren't paying attention to the education provided, what can be
done?

Tamyka Bell said:

Dorre said:

17. Peter Keller said:

There would be no problem if the truck drivers awaited a signal that it is safe to pull left (right) again

...and if they don't get one, wait until they can see that the bike or
other vehicle is clearly behind them in the rear-view mirror.

One poster thought that education was out of the question. But this is
silly! Whenever a problem like this surfaces, cyclists should
campaign for the issue to be addressed by education, and, if necessary,
appropriate changes made to the drivers handbook.

Dorre

That was me! But it's not that I think it's out of the question... I
just think that most drivers out there don't realise how appallingly
they drive. My instructor was great - but still I improved as a driver
after (1) defensive driving course and (2) becoming a cyclist. I saw
the results of other instructors, people who barely passed tests... if
people aren't paying attention to the education provided, what can be
done?

I'm coming in late on this thread; however.

How about a little education of cyclists about involving heavy vehicle
size, indertia and blind spots? Your bike, like mine weighs as little an
amount as you can afford / get away with. A single medium sized truck
wheel and tyre weighs significantly more than both of our bikes combined
and the entire truck weigh up to 90 metric tonnes. (for a B triple)

So while you or I can throw our bike about on the road changing
direction [censored] nilly, (like I have seen many adult road trainer
cyclists do in heavy traffic) a truck takes time. Time to start, time to
stop, time to change direction; and once it starts happening it doesnt
want to stop.

A good heavy vehicle driver has a gut feeling for inertia and will try
to keep their vehicle moving, even if it is only 1 - 2 kmh. They will
also try to start their vehicle moving a little earlier, to fit it
through that gap they can see coming etc.

Another thing may forget is that if you cannot see the truck driver in
his mirrors they can not see you. If there is time and they know your
there they may look for your shadow, dont count on it. If the driver can
not see you and does not know your there, that is _your_ fault.

Also unless your a bike courier, you dont have a timetable, or a
schedule or cargo/passengers or up to 1/2 million dollars worth of
vehicle to worry about. You have you and your bike, wich may be anywhere
from $50 up.

You are a road user, you have rights, you also have responsibilities. In
a first aid course the first thing they teach you is. "Your first
responibility is your own safety and wellbeing." Think about that when
your out on your bike on the road.

Many heavy vehicle drivers do not like cyclists, because of the
thoughtless stunts that some cyclists pull in the vicinity of trucks.

Try not to put yourself in situations that may kill you. Else Murphy
will have you.

Lastly there are cowboys in any industry, trucking included; this does
not excuse them. Your best offence is the ph number of the company on
the side of the truck.

Falx

Who happens to be a coach driver and a cyclist.

ps. Where I live (cairns) there is one thing that irrits me no end
everytime I see a cyclist do it. If you live in the Cairns area, and
road train. Please do not hillclimb the Kuranda range. Doing so is
stupidly dangerous. There is nowhere for you, (a cyclist) to get off the
road and there is no room to pass you (the cyclist) without crossing the
white lines, even in a car. Also you (the cyclist) are doing less than
10 kmh (more like <5). The difference between your speed and the speed
of an empty gravel truck is 50 kmh, he weighs 18 000 kg you weigh 100kg?
You are slow enough to be hidden in a bend untill its far to late. If a
driver has to choose between squishing a cyclist or hitting another
truck head on; I'm sorry for the cyclists family.

If you want to hillclimb, ride copperload, do it twice. Its quieter,
there are far fewer vehicles and a lot less pollution.