Deal with devil, get horns?

Luke said:

...

Regardless of the significance the headtube length plays in sizing,
CyclesMercier would do better to subordinate it to that which the
customer plays in its existence.

Luke

A small dose of "the customer is always right" would have taken care of
all this. I can understand the budget business model all right, but
nobody who asks a question wants to be told "you don't need to know
that." This is a small thing, but if it had happened to me, I would
quickly move on to another vendor if someone gave me that kind of an answer.

Quoted message said:

This is a small thing, but if it had happened to me, I would quickly move
on to another vendor if someone gave me that kind of an answer.

And if the world works the way it ought to, that's exactly what happened.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"catzz66" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Luke said:

...

Regardless of the significance the headtube length plays in sizing,
CyclesMercier would do better to subordinate it to that which the
customer plays in its existence. Luke

A small dose of "the customer is always right" would have taken care of
all this. I can understand the budget business model all right, but
nobody who asks a question wants to be told "you don't need to know that."
This is a small thing, but if it had happened to me, I would quickly move
on to another vendor if someone gave me that kind of an answer.

Luke said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Vee said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you can
pay $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in
Taiwan using very similar components. Now, the question is this: is
the "advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being
in, ever.

Well, the operative term is 'I'. The notion of what constitutes value
for another is not predicated upon your sensibilities. The same fellow
who is incredulous at you for parting with a $1000 for a bicycle will
pay a premium of $100 for the privilege of sporting a corporate logo
on a pair of running shoes. I'm overstating the case to be sure, but I
hope you take my point: the determination of value is subjective.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and adjustment, you
are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with
the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to get their act
together and earn their business if they want to survive.

Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be doing
that they are not?

I would expect that the typical consumer who goes for a Trek 1000 or
comparable road bike is just getting started in the sport. How are
they going to learn about fit, pedals, clothes, rides, clubs,
technology, etc. by shopping online?

Not by shopping, but by researching, enquiring, participating in
forums, etc - just as we are now.

Do you not consider that the regular contributions here of several
operators of prominent LBS's spread across the continent (globe?)
underscore the reality that the expertise residing in these shops is
not bound by bricks and mortar? And that your physical LBS need not be
your definitive or primary source of cycling knowledge?

A truly good LBS is a tremendous resource, and worth patronizing for
many reasons beyond effecting a simple transaction (as you note); but
the simple *fact* is that a forum such as this, on any given day,
benefits by several centuries worth of cycling experience of a degree
and scope beyond that which a LBS can match.

That's true if you're techno-savvy, know how to search for the right info,
and are willing to spend that time searching for the info, filtering out the
signal from the voluminous noise. And let's be honest, the majority of web
users don't even know what Usenet is. Even if there's info on the web, the
majority of people won't find it. That's why Sheldon's website is so
useful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My limited experience with
novices who buy online is that they make a lot of unnecessary
mistakes.

My experience is that many LBSes are as adept at dispensing
information as they are misinformation; while others are ignorant
(this is not meant pejoratively). And that uninformed - and
misinformed! - buyers make the most mistakes of all.

And the internet is infallible? If anything, there is more useless [censored] on
the net than there is at your local LBS!

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Vee said:

Quoted message said:

RonSonic wrote:
> On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
>
>>
>> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek
>>>> 1000/1200/1500 for?
>>>
>>> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just
>>> a little heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on
>>> it. The Sora levers, and rear der wore out at about the 15,000
>>> mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels didn't make it over 4000
>>> miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and the wheels
>>> were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
>>
>>
>> The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling
>> the stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly
>> comparable, but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike
>> comparable to the $690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes
>> Direct. That's a big difference. How much is the "advice" from
>> the LBS worth, really?
>
> They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you can
> find who has to answer for how the bike works for you. In this
> particular case, it comes with a clear and perfect answer to the
> question "which size best fits me." It also comes with tune ups
> and a warranty that actually means something.
>
> For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
>
> For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching
> anyway or will put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok
> the experience and then unload it on ebay, it might not be.
>
> Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding
> all those different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
>
> Ron

Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you can
pay $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in
Taiwan using very similar components. Now, the question is this: is
the "advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being
in, ever. Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and
adjustment, you are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct
do catch on with the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to
get their act together and earn their business if they want to
survive.

Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be doing
that they are not?

Having a trained staff and giving useful advice, for a start. Here's
an example: a few years ago, I went to a bike shop in search of some
replacement spokes. While I waited for a free staff person, I watched
the conversation between a customer and the guy who, it turned out,
owned the shop. The customer was looking at a Cannondale road bike.
The question came to sizing; the shop owner told the guy to stand
over the bike and lift up on the bars. He eyed the space from the
floor to the tire. "Yeah, that's the right size." How much is that
kind of "advice" worth? The guy would do just as well with the info
(standover height, etc.) he could get on the web from Bikes Direct,
etc. And, he'd save a bunch of money, or get a potentially better
bike for the same outlay of cash.

Not as many people are as bike-savvy as you. Is that what you wanted to
hear? You have to realize that not everyone has had a year or two of
cycling experience.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would expect that the typical consumer who goes for a Trek 1000 or
comparable road bike is just getting started in the sport. How are
they going to learn about fit, pedals, clothes, rides, clubs,
technology, etc. by shopping online? My limited experience with
novices who buy online is that they make a lot of unnecessary
mistakes.

The LBSs will still be willing and eagar to tell 'em all about pedals,
clothing and so on. Clubs and rides, too.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

Vee said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> RonSonic wrote:
>> On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek
>>>>> 1000/1200/1500 for?
>>>>
>>>> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just
>>>> a little heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on
>>>> it. The Sora levers, and rear der wore out at about the 15,000
>>>> mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels didn't make it over 4000
>>>> miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and the wheels
>>>> were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
>>>
>>>
>>> The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling
>>> the stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly
>>> comparable, but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike
>>> comparable to the $690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes
>>> Direct. That's a big difference. How much is the "advice" from
>>> the LBS worth, really?
>>
>> They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you can
>> find who has to answer for how the bike works for you. In this
>> particular case, it comes with a clear and perfect answer to the
>> question "which size best fits me." It also comes with tune ups
>> and a warranty that actually means something.
>>
>> For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
>>
>> For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching
>> anyway or will put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok
>> the experience and then unload it on ebay, it might not be.
>>
>> Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding
>> all those different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
>>
>> Ron
>
> Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you can
> pay $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
> comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
> commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in
> Taiwan using very similar components. Now, the question is this: is
> the "advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
> percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being
> in, ever. Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and
> adjustment, you are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct
> do catch on with the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to
> get their act together and earn their business if they want to
> survive.

Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be doing
that they are not?

Having a trained staff and giving useful advice, for a start. Here's
an example: a few years ago, I went to a bike shop in search of some
replacement spokes. While I waited for a free staff person, I watched
the conversation between a customer and the guy who, it turned out,
owned the shop. The customer was looking at a Cannondale road bike.
The question came to sizing; the shop owner told the guy to stand
over the bike and lift up on the bars. He eyed the space from the
floor to the tire. "Yeah, that's the right size." How much is that
kind of "advice" worth? The guy would do just as well with the info
(standover height, etc.) he could get on the web from Bikes Direct,
etc. And, he'd save a bunch of money, or get a potentially better
bike for the same outlay of cash.

Not as many people are as bike-savvy as you. Is that what you wanted to
hear?

It means so much when I hear it from a maven like you, Phil! Tell us
again about using a cheap adjustable wrench for maintainence and repair
work, won't you?

Quoted message said:

You have to realize that not everyone has had a year or two of
cycling experience.

I wonder if those who custom your employer's shop know that a snot
nosed ignoramus is being loosed on _their_ bicycle?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would expect that the typical consumer who goes for a Trek 1000 or
comparable road bike is just getting started in the sport. How are
they going to learn about fit, pedals, clothes, rides, clubs,
technology, etc. by shopping online? My limited experience with
novices who buy online is that they make a lot of unnecessary
mistakes.

The LBSs will still be willing and eagar to tell 'em all about pedals,
clothing and so on. Clubs and rides, too.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

{buncha snippage}

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not as many people are as bike-savvy as you. Is that what you
wanted to hear?

Quoted message said:

It means so much when I hear it from a maven like you, Phil! Tell us
again about using a cheap adjustable wrench for maintainence and
repair work, won't you?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You have to realize that not everyone has had a year or two of
cycling experience.

Quoted message said:

I wonder if those who custom your employer's shop know that a snot
nosed ignoramus is being loosed on _their_ bicycle?

Pass the popcorn please.

LOL <eg> LOL

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

Vee wrote:
> [email hidden] wrote:
>> RonSonic wrote:
>>> On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek
>>>>>> 1000/1200/1500 for?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just
>>>>> a little heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on
>>>>> it. The Sora levers, and rear der wore out at about the 15,000
>>>>> mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels didn't make it over 4000
>>>>> miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and the wheels
>>>>> were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling
>>>> the stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly
>>>> comparable, but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike
>>>> comparable to the $690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes
>>>> Direct. That's a big difference. How much is the "advice" from
>>>> the LBS worth, really?
>>>
>>> They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you
>>> can find who has to answer for how the bike works for you. In
>>> this particular case, it comes with a clear and perfect answer
>>> to the question "which size best fits me." It also comes with
>>> tune ups and a warranty that actually means something.
>>>
>>> For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
>>>
>>> For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching
>>> anyway or will put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok
>>> the experience and then unload it on ebay, it might not be.
>>>
>>> Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding
>>> all those different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>
>> Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you
>> can pay $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about
>> $495 for a comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your
>> door. Both are commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and
>> assembled in Taiwan using very similar components. Now, the
>> question is this: is the "advice" and "guidance" you get at your
>> LBS worth that kind of percentage of the purchase price? Not at
>> any LBS I can recall being in, ever. Even if you you spend $50
>> for final assembly and adjustment, you are still way ahead. I
>> hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with the cycling public;
>> that will force the LBSs to get their act together and earn their
>> business if they want to survive.
>
> Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be
> doing that they are not?
>

Having a trained staff and giving useful advice, for a start. Here's
an example: a few years ago, I went to a bike shop in search of some
replacement spokes. While I waited for a free staff person, I
watched the conversation between a customer and the guy who, it
turned out, owned the shop. The customer was looking at a
Cannondale road bike. The question came to sizing; the shop owner
told the guy to stand over the bike and lift up on the bars. He
eyed the space from the floor to the tire. "Yeah, that's the right
size." How much is that kind of "advice" worth? The guy would do
just as well with the info (standover height, etc.) he could get on
the web from Bikes Direct, etc. And, he'd save a bunch of money, or
get a potentially better bike for the same outlay of cash.

Not as many people are as bike-savvy as you. Is that what you
wanted to hear?

It means so much when I hear it from a maven like you, Phil! Tell us
again about using a cheap adjustable wrench for maintainence and
repair work, won't you?

I use an adjustable wrench for repair work. Is that what you wanted to
hear?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You have to realize that not everyone has had a year or two of
cycling experience.

I wonder if those who custom your employer's shop know that a snot
nosed ignoramus is being loosed on _their_ bicycle?

Yawn. Irrelevant. The point is that LBSs give out useful information,
specific to each rider. If that's not important to you, then great! One
less know-it-all to waste our time with. We're interested in helping people
that need help, namely, most other people.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> Vee wrote:
>> [email hidden] wrote:
>>> RonSonic wrote:
>>>> On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek
>>>>>>> 1000/1200/1500 for?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just
>>>>>> a little heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on
>>>>>> it. The Sora levers, and rear der wore out at about the 15,000
>>>>>> mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels didn't make it over 4000
>>>>>> miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and the wheels
>>>>>> were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling
>>>>> the stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly
>>>>> comparable, but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike
>>>>> comparable to the $690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes
>>>>> Direct. That's a big difference. How much is the "advice" from
>>>>> the LBS worth, really?
>>>>
>>>> They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you
>>>> can find who has to answer for how the bike works for you. In
>>>> this particular case, it comes with a clear and perfect answer
>>>> to the question "which size best fits me." It also comes with
>>>> tune ups and a warranty that actually means something.
>>>>
>>>> For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
>>>>
>>>> For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching
>>>> anyway or will put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok
>>>> the experience and then unload it on ebay, it might not be.
>>>>
>>>> Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding
>>>> all those different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>
>>> Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you
>>> can pay $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about
>>> $495 for a comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your
>>> door. Both are commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and
>>> assembled in Taiwan using very similar components. Now, the
>>> question is this: is the "advice" and "guidance" you get at your
>>> LBS worth that kind of percentage of the purchase price? Not at
>>> any LBS I can recall being in, ever. Even if you you spend $50
>>> for final assembly and adjustment, you are still way ahead. I
>>> hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with the cycling public;
>>> that will force the LBSs to get their act together and earn their
>>> business if they want to survive.
>>
>> Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be
>> doing that they are not?
>>
>
> Having a trained staff and giving useful advice, for a start. Here's
> an example: a few years ago, I went to a bike shop in search of some
> replacement spokes. While I waited for a free staff person, I
> watched the conversation between a customer and the guy who, it
> turned out, owned the shop. The customer was looking at a
> Cannondale road bike. The question came to sizing; the shop owner
> told the guy to stand over the bike and lift up on the bars. He
> eyed the space from the floor to the tire. "Yeah, that's the right
> size." How much is that kind of "advice" worth? The guy would do
> just as well with the info (standover height, etc.) he could get on
> the web from Bikes Direct, etc. And, he'd save a bunch of money, or
> get a potentially better bike for the same outlay of cash.

Not as many people are as bike-savvy as you. Is that what you
wanted to hear?

It means so much when I hear it from a maven like you, Phil! Tell us
again about using a cheap adjustable wrench for maintainence and
repair work, won't you?

I use an adjustable wrench for repair work. Is that what you wanted to
hear?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You have to realize that not everyone has had a year or two of
cycling experience.

I wonder if those who custom your employer's shop know that a snot
nosed ignoramus is being loosed on _their_ bicycle?

Yawn. Irrelevant.

Irrelevant? Not to the poor sod who wanders into the shop needing
service, agrees to the $50/hr shop rate and has the bad fortune to draw
you, your "impressive" bicycle knowledge and your cheap adjustable
wrench. IMO, that guy is SOL.

The point is that LBSs give out useful information,

Quoted message said:

specific to each rider. If that's not important to you, then great! One
less know-it-all to waste our time with. We're interested in helping people
that need help, namely, most other people.

--
Phil, Squid-in-(potty)Training

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
> [email hidden] wrote:
>> Vee wrote:
>>> [email hidden] wrote:
>>>> RonSonic wrote:
>>>>> On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek
>>>>>>>> 1000/1200/1500 for?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap,
>>>>>>> just a little heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000
>>>>>>> miles on it. The Sora levers, and rear der wore out at
>>>>>>> about the 15,000 mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels didn't
>>>>>>> make it over 4000 miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105
>>>>>>> bike, and the wheels were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be
>>>>>> calling the stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are
>>>>>> directly comparable, but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes
>>>>>> Direct; a bike comparable to the $690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500
>>>>>> or less at Bikes Direct. That's a big difference. How much is
>>>>>> the "advice" from the LBS worth, really?
>>>>>
>>>>> They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you
>>>>> can find who has to answer for how the bike works for you. In
>>>>> this particular case, it comes with a clear and perfect answer
>>>>> to the question "which size best fits me." It also comes with
>>>>> tune ups and a warranty that actually means something.
>>>>>
>>>>> For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
>>>>>
>>>>> For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own
>>>>> wrenching anyway or will put up with a difficult bike long
>>>>> enough to grok the experience and then unload it on ebay, it
>>>>> might not be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding
>>>>> all those different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you
>>>> can pay $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about
>>>> $495 for a comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your
>>>> door. Both are commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and
>>>> assembled in Taiwan using very similar components. Now, the
>>>> question is this: is the "advice" and "guidance" you get at your
>>>> LBS worth that kind of percentage of the purchase price? Not at
>>>> any LBS I can recall being in, ever. Even if you you spend $50
>>>> for final assembly and adjustment, you are still way ahead. I
>>>> hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with the cycling
>>>> public; that will force the LBSs to get their act together and
>>>> earn their business if they want to survive.
>>>
>>> Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be
>>> doing that they are not?
>>>
>>
>> Having a trained staff and giving useful advice, for a start.
>> Here's an example: a few years ago, I went to a bike shop in
>> search of some replacement spokes. While I waited for a free
>> staff person, I watched the conversation between a customer and
>> the guy who, it turned out, owned the shop. The customer was
>> looking at a Cannondale road bike. The question came to sizing;
>> the shop owner told the guy to stand over the bike and lift up on
>> the bars. He eyed the space from the floor to the tire. "Yeah,
>> that's the right size." How much is that kind of "advice" worth?
>> The guy would do just as well with the info (standover height,
>> etc.) he could get on the web from Bikes Direct, etc. And, he'd
>> save a bunch of money, or get a potentially better bike for the
>> same outlay of cash.
>
> Not as many people are as bike-savvy as you. Is that what you
> wanted to hear?

It means so much when I hear it from a maven like you, Phil! Tell us
again about using a cheap adjustable wrench for maintainence and
repair work, won't you?

I use an adjustable wrench for repair work. Is that what you wanted
to hear?

Quoted message said:

> You have to realize that not everyone has had a year or two of
> cycling experience.

I wonder if those who custom your employer's shop know that a snot
nosed ignoramus is being loosed on _their_ bicycle?

Yawn. Irrelevant.

Irrelevant? Not to the poor sod who wanders into the shop needing
service, agrees to the $50/hr shop rate and has the bad fortune to
draw you, your "impressive" bicycle knowledge and your cheap
adjustable wrench. IMO, that guy is SOL.

Huh? Where are you going with this? Your personal attack has nothing to do
with the value of online vs. LBS bikes. Whatever I did to offend you, I'm
sorry, I think?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In article <2bqnf.10914$fz5.10079@dukeread04>, Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My experience is that many LBSes are as adept at dispensing
information as they are misinformation; while others are ignorant
(this is not meant pejoratively). And that uninformed - and
misinformed! - buyers make the most mistakes of all.

And the internet is infallible?

Never stated or meant to imply that all these electrons are the epitome
of perfection. Merely, that the chances of obtaining accurate and
pertinent info increase with access to different sources.

Quoted message said:

If anything, there is more useless [censored] on
the net than there is at your local LBS!

Don't forget the other half of that truth: there's also more useful
info as well.

Luke

Luke said:

In article <2bqnf.10914$fz5.10079@dukeread04>, Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My experience is that many LBSes are as adept at dispensing
information as they are misinformation; while others are ignorant
(this is not meant pejoratively). And that uninformed - and
misinformed! - buyers make the most mistakes of all.

And the internet is infallible?

Never stated or meant to imply that all these electrons are the
epitome of perfection. Merely, that the chances of obtaining accurate
and pertinent info increase with access to different sources.

This is true. However, I think the vast amount of information is poorly
organized, making it difficult to sift through things if you're a newbie.
Again, Sheldon's site is useful. If you go to your LBS and ask a specific
question, you'll get the answer quick, often generating more questions. If
you ask a specific question, you sometimes have to sift through lots of [censored]
to get the answer, although it's always out there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If anything, there is more useless [censored] on
the net than there is at your local LBS!

Don't forget the other half of that truth: there's also more useful
info as well.

Hehe... 60% [censored] and 60% useful, right? 😉

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Bill Sornson said:

Having read this entire thread, I think we can conclude one thing:

Blubberpuss is a trouble-maker.

/ <eg>

Hey Sorni, why don't you keep your proprietary opinions to yourself.

/s

"Move along, move along... nothing to see here...."

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

The point is, this isn't the way a company puts its best foot forward.
If I'm a little anxious about the quality of the frame and fork,
stonewalling me on what's likely a non-issue isn't the way to assuage
my concerns.

Scott: It's not in their best interest to "put their best-foot forward."
They make money (quite a bit of it) at the prices they sell the bikes for
primarily because they *don't* offer support. Warranty? Lifetime! Just
return it to any Mercier dealer. Fine, if live in metropolitan Texas,
otherwise a very long road trip. Help in sizing the bike? The problem there
is that, once you begin to help a customer, you're trapped. They're going to
keep coming back with more questions, looking for more advice. That's the
way it works. At the retail end, that's a good thing, keeps the customer
coming back for more goodies etc.

At Mercier's end, it's a distraction that keeps them from selling their
*only* product. The time they spend with someone on the phone or email
discussing various details is time they don't have to sell bikes to other
people who don't ask such questions, but buy because the product is cheap.
As long as they have a supply of the latter customers (wanting cheap
product), they'll always short-change those who cost them more time,
resulting in fewer sales to the more-profitable clientele. That's business
at that end of the game.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Scott Gordo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andrew F Martin said:

Good point Mike - I glossed over the Disc issue. I guess I'm just
used to being flexible that I can make most any bike "fit". In my
case, the only bike I had problems with had a long head tube so I had a
hard time getting low enough.

So - I take it back. Mail order works fine if you looking a deal, but
you aren't likely to get any sort of fit like you would with an LBS.

...OR unless you know what works for you and can get the stupid
measurements.
But whatever, I understand what he's saying about the horizontal top
tube. I can look at pics and ASSUME that there are no extensions or
anything special, and that a 62 will fit like a 62 with a normal stack
height. But maybe not. Maybe there's an especially long down tube and a
tiny head tube. Maybe the head tube on a 62 extends three feet above
the top tube. Maybe the fork's steerer is perilously thin and prone to
failure the more spacers I use. Who knows?
The point is, this isn't the way a company puts its best foot forward.
If I'm a little anxious about the quality of the frame and fork,
stonewalling me on what's likely a non-issue isn't the way to assuage
my concerns.
If I was considering buying a pair of shoes online for a significant
discount and wanted to know about the width, or the shape of the
toebox, or how tall the heel is, and the company said, "Sir, it's a 47.
Any other information and you'd just get confused," I'd say what I'm
going to say here.
Thanks anyway.

/s

In article <[email hidden]>, Mike

Jacoubowsky said:

you the cheapest thing they can. I can only speak for Trek in this case,
although it may be true for some others as well... Trek has a full-time
person, sometimes more than one, basically living in the factory that builds
the bikes. This isn't an option if you want the product built to a
particular spec... it's a requirement. This was first learned (by Trek) a
number of years ago, when they switched overseas suppliers to a "famous
name-brand label" and quality went to ZERO. Why? Because they (the offshore
bike producer) built to the absolute-minimum description of the merchandise.
Basically, they produced a BSO, affectionately known in shops as a "Bike
Shaped Object."

It's true for outsourcing anything, especially things to China. QC is
spotty at best and most companies usually eat the cost of poor QC and
sell it as seconds. You see, they can't do nothing to these people
aside from persuading them to try better next time. You can't turn
back to clock either and move production back to the states as we all
now expect to pay CHEAPER goods. So, unless you know of a good
offshore outsourcer that do good work (few do), then you'll more than
likely have to live and learn from your mistakes which no doubt Trek
had done. Then you have to contend with production capacity from the
very few that do well and being used by everyone in the bike industry.

However, you are very correct in saying that your experience in this
topic limits yourself as being a Trek dealer. This is simply not the
case with Cervelo bikes, which some of them are offshore made and still
attain very good quality workmanship on par at least with Canadian
quality, notably the Dual. In fact, it's the most sold bikes and are
widely seen in many tri events because of the price point. It's
definitely "NOT" a BSO.

Quoted message said:

So your more-reputable companies will most likely have someone at the
factory monitoring things, and spec to a higher level of quality (not parts,
but actual frame quality)... for which they're charged more. This isn't
rocket science. It's amazing that people have this idea that a bike frame is
a bike frame, all equally-long-lasting, all equal in ride quality, between
brands. This is not the case.

That's good news, though it is not only limiting to just Trek. Seems
to be a consistent song to sing from our local Trek dealers here too!!

Cervelo, Dion, Marinoni or Guru aren't too shaby either when it comes
to QC.. They are certainly not the level of Trek when it comes to
marketing, but not too far behind.

Trek dealers enjoy a certain ease when it comes to selling bikes.
You've got the 28 million dollar man touting the bikes to be his
personal best rig that won 7 TDFs. You've got the commander in chief
(Mr. Bush) that rides a fancy Trek Fuel I believe (personally given to
by Trek).

Good marketing does very good things to Trek now..

Star power sells.. If you ever pay attention to all of the older car
ads, you will see what I mean.. Tina Turner touting the Chrysler mini
van to name a few. Many vehicles that were sold because of star power
were not necessarily good reliable vehicles either, eventhough they
were all domestically made in the good old US of A.

I don't say Trek bikes are bad. They are good, but please don't
worship that Project One stuff like gods.

Quoted message said:

Some shops are dying off; many others are thriving. It all comes down to
taking care of the customer, recognizing their needs, and supplying
solutions. It also means spending less time on "educating" the public in
forums like this because, realistically, people who believe that all bikes
are the same and that BikesDirect.com is offering such a great bargain that
the local shop is ripping you off... those people aren't going to change
their minds. But I'm a sucker for punishment, and also a very fast typist,
so it's not a huge sacrifice. Besides, it helps me to better understand how
people work, which allows me to better optimize my business practices.

I also had been working in the bike business for many years and would
have to agree with Mike on this. I used to work in stores and have
customers pound me with stupid questions like which components I should
get and which bikes should I buy. Worse of all, some of them use our
fitting service to steal some vital info so they can use them to buy
their own bikes off the net and believe they got the right fit.
Unfortunately, the right fit even with the best measurements isn't
always bang on.

In the end, however, these mistakes will cost them more than they would
have saved. Some people just don't learn. They keep looking for the
next best bike, hoping that gimmicks that would end discomfort would be
in their calling. These people will always feel that a full LBS is
ripping them off, while neglecting the vital importance of a good bike
fit provided by good staff at the LBS which bikes.com do not always do
a good job at.

That service costs money and are denominated in US dollars, not in
Chinese Yuan.

David.